From Yahoo!:

Amnesty International: Gay persecution rising across globe

and

I'm going to make an unpopular point here, but this is a clear example of how the Gay Pride movement doesn't work, and in fact creates persecution where there was none. Flamboyant gays marching in the streets really don't help those who live quiet lives--they foster anger and even more oppression. I feel sorry for the gay men who were peacefully living their lives until the Gay Pride movement, in their selfishness and supposed wisdom (because they always know what's best for the gay community at large), brought them increased violence.

the gay pride movement....

the folks who gave us.......


MARRIAGE!


progress comes with a price. as we contemplate the details of our wedding, we can't say strongly enough that the price was worth paying.

a prayer goes out to all our brothers and sisters in disadvantaged areas asking that they be given the strength to perservere in their fight for equality. the fault is not theirs. they are the victims.

[ July 05, 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: thersis ]

I don't. Living in a dark & dreary closet is a miserable existence at best and is NOT "peaceful". Thanks to all who speak up for themselves and against oppression past and present. We owe you.

Skjpm, I'm not going to go off on you. But you have written that you have a Ph.D. In English, right? So certainly in the process of studying for your doctorate and preparing your reading list (for the M.A. and/or Ph.D.), you had to read some (a little?) English and American history for background purposes. Right?

Thus you know--and just perhaps want to forget--that LOOOONNNNNGGGG before gay pride parades--before the rise of the modern homosexual movement--quiet gay men and women were BRUTALLY rooted out, attacked, killed, burned at the stake, beheaded, and so on. Usually the culprits were religion and politics, though they often worked in collusion. England among the European nations was particularly notorious on this account. Witch hunts against homosexuals--including quiet, closeted homosexuals--occurred periodically throughout English and British history.

As for the "gay men who were peacefully living their lives," are you just unaware or unwilling to open a book or watch any films that detail the numerous problems most gay people--not just gay men--faced before Stonewall? Are you unaware of the constant police raids? The jailings? The murders of gay people? (These continue even today.) Do you not know about the Puritans burning gay men on the stake? Do you know about the blackmailings and persecution that made Newton Arvin lose his mind and F. O. Mattheissen leap out of a hotel window rather than be outed? Outside of the U.S., are you not aware of the Nazi death camps and the pink and black triangles? Maybe you don't know about this stuff, but....

Moreover, overt homosexual and cross-gender behavior and practice, as well as homosexual identification, have had a ritualized role in numerous societies, including in ancient Greece and Rome, among many African and native American tribes, as in India and elsewhere. Being out and gay is not what provokes homophobia; mistaken, hateful attitudes and ideologies, which you sadly appear to have internalized, are the real threats to our humanity.

[ July 05, 2004, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

I'm a little skeptical of the whole report. Without gay/lesbian organizations to report the harassment, it is usually not distinguished from any other crimes of violence, so there's no accurate historical data. Certainly, legal persecution of gays in Latin America is not a new phenomenon--the 1901 arrest of 41 people at a private party in Mexico City being one of the more famous examples.

Alright, I'll Godwin this thread. Interstingly, that's the attitude of both the religious and irreligious Jews toward the Holocaust. Religous Jews felt that the Germans found the assimilation of secular Jews a usurpation of the their rightful place in society and reacted by trying to destroy the entirety of the Jewish race. The secular community felt that the Germans were offended by the backward and foreign faith of the religious Jews. Modern Israeli attitude is often that the Jews of Europe allowed themselves to be led like lambs to the slaughter and that if they'd been stronger would have been able to resist the Nazi regime. In the end six million souls perished in the greatest conflagration in the history of humanity. And it was entirely the Nazis' fault. Not the religious Jews' fault, not the secular Jews' fault, not because they allowed themselves to be killed. Atrocities on any level, from the school yard bully to the totalitarian dictator, are the fault of those who perform the atrocity. There is no excuse for violence against one's fellwo human beings. Blaming the victims of that violence only victimizes them all over again. Railing against gay pride is the wrong way to solve the problem. Rather, put your energy into opposing the bigots and tyrants who really don't care if you're quiet, loud, masculine, feminine or a rampaging drag queen, but only cares that you f**k (or even like to f**k) guys. And is willing to destroy you for it.

When I hear people talk about the "price" of the gay movement, I am reminded that there is still a price being paid here at home.

We still have gay youth end up on the streets because their families boot them out. We, the older generation, look on them as "chicken" as we drive by in our comfortable cars or SUV's.

Most of them end up hustling, using, dealing to survive, with little or no support system.

We still have the majority of GLBT people perceived as white, muscular, drug taking, sex crazy party "bois".

We are not seen as Doctors, Lawyers (no, Will does NOT count), religious people, construction workers, truck drivers, parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles.

What we NEED to do, is to once and for all set an example.

We need to let people know that we are more than what they see on the local news on Pride Day.

We need to support the gay youth, or put programs in place, and properly fund them, to help them.

We need to let the average American know that gays truly are everywhere, from the top of the Office boardroom, to the drugged out elderly homeless man under a bridge.

We need to let people know that we are them, and they are us.

When we fix our own home, then we can really be an example for the rest of the world.

I read a news article in the last couple of weeks about the gay teen suicide rate going DOWN as a direct result of more visibility and acceptance of homosexuality in our country. More proof of just how deadly the closet can be (especially to our gay children and teens).

Persecution of homosexuals in Latin America far precedes 1901. In the late 1500s and early 1600s, the Holy Inquisition sent its representatives to Bahia (then the capital of Brazil), as well as to several other major Latin American cities (including Mexico City), to prosecute crimes against the faith, one of which was "the abominable crime" of sodomy. (They were also rooting out "false" Christians, apostates, and so forth.) More than a few faggots (and I don't just mean the wooden kind) were burnt on the stake, exiled, or publicly humiliated.

Also, another response to Quiet Gay is that in every country where toleration has developed and anti-gay measures are not used against homosexuals, gay people have had to push and press for these changes. They seldom come about merely through passivity and silence, though occasionally, as in the case of Napoleon, they arise out of a larger societal enlightenment (and even in post-Napoleonic France persecution of homosexuals persisted, though homosexual sex was not illegal). In those cases where the original cultures DID accept homosexuals (as in Indonesia), the presence of the major religions (in Indonesia's case, Islam) and colonialism (the Dutch) had a negative effect on cultural acceptance of homosexuality, so the modern homosexual movement has had to push that society along to return to its *original* cultural view of homosexual behavior. Blaming out gay people and the homosexual activists for gay persecution is particularly perverse; but then, if you believe the things people who hate you say about you, you're far more likely to assist in your own oppression.

[ July 05, 2004, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

And those "quiet" doctors and lawyers and such have only themselves to blame. It is not the visible people who have limited the public view of homosexuality, but those who refuse to be visible. If you want the public to change its perception of homosexuality to include you, you have to be perceptibly gay to the public.

I am so sick of these people who want to be "quietly gay", blaming those of us who had the balls to come out of the closet, deal with our sexual orientation and LIVE OUR LIVES, for making their pitiful existances tough. Don't blame us because you hate yourself. Get over your self-loathing and come out of the f**king closet for pity sakes.
:mad:

So, you don't really want diversity of opinion in the gay community?

Imagine this: gays working hard at their jobs, being lawyers, doctors, teachers, clerks, waiters. They form partnerships, move into houses, get to know the people in their neighborhood. They do things with the community, with their church, and with friends. They simply live their lives publicly but quietly as a couple. Then, at some point, they're having dinner at some friends' house, and during coffee, they say, "You know, there's going to be a vote on gay marriage in this city. We were hoping you'd vote for it so that you can help support us in our desire to build a legal foundation for our relationship, the way you have with yours. You've known us awhile now. Do you think you could help us with your vote?"

This is how a quiet revolution could work.

Or they could wrap themselves in Rainbow flags and march down the street.

If that was in response to me, I'd prefer that people take responsibility for their own actions and situations. Both being out and being quiet bring certain positive and negative effects to a person. If you choose to behave in a certain way, it is unfair to blame your experience on how someone else behaves, unless they are actually encroaching on your rights (i.e. it doesn't matter what you were wearing, you didn't ask to be raped, but if you're dressed provocatively you have no right to the expectation that construction workers won't wolf whistle at you, to put it in particularly absurd terms). And that goes for all sides of this discussion. It is similarly unfair to blame those living quietly for society's rejection of homosexuals. If you don't like how society is treating you, you're only options are acceptance and resistance. Blaming someone else's actions is cowardly.

The assumption is that those who are quietly gay are hurting the gay community because the more visibility, the better for all. But another point of view is that flamboyant behavior brings unnecessary backlash on the whole community. I think it takes balls just to get up in the morning. It takes balls to deal with Medicare for my Mom. It takes balls to face my class. It takes balls to get through any day. After that, what I do with my homosexuality is my own business, and not up for your approval.

Just as the behavior of those marching in the streets is not up for yours. You open yourself to criticism when you criticise others. You may have started this way, but at this point you are no longer simply arguing for personally living the way you wish to live. You are seeking to impose on some level your values on the rest of the gay community. It's wrong when we do it to you. It is equally wrong when you do it to anyone else.

That's a lovely image, and absolutely necessary to the progression of gay rights in this and other countries. There is a similar place for marching down the street. However, you've made it clear from your first post that you have dificulty discussing any aspect of homosexuality with anyone in your close circle of friends and family. Have you asked anyone to vote in a gay friendly way? You seem to want credit for behavior you're not engaging in. In the abstract, your ideas have merit. In the concrete, you don't quite make the committment to the ideals you espouse.

The Link

Imagine this: gays working hard at their jobs, being lawyers, doctors, teachers, clerks, waiters. They form partnerships, move into houses, get to know the people in their neighborhood. They do things with the community, with their church, and with friends. They simply live their lives publicly but quietly as a couple. Then one member of the couple, A, gets ill and has to be hospitalized. A doesn't have insurance, and his beloved, B, can't use his own insurance to pay for A's bills. B encounters problems trying to visit A at the hospital when he lets the staff there know he's A's partner. B encounters challenges from his A's family concerning A's treatment and the future disposition of the estate they have built together. (Let's pray that A & B wrote up a will and had it notarized, or B could be in for some serious problems if A's illness is fatal.) B loses his job--as a lawyer, doctor, teacher, clerk, waiter--he's fired and he has no union protection--because his employer finds out that he's gay. Meanwhile, B's and A's landlord did not know that they were a gay couple, and refuses to renew their lease. B finds that because of the laws in his state--and these exist in MOST of the states in the US--he has little legal recourse, though of course, like many gay people, he is still going to fight the discrimination.

Of course, it doesn't even have to come down to A getting sick. Homosexuals, even deeply closeted ones, have been fired simply for suspecting of being homosexual. Gay people cannot adopt their partner's/lover's/spouse's children in some states, let alone adopt a child together in others. Gay people, even quiet ones, can be and are denied leases, promotions, etc., in many places. Why? Because while the Supreme Court struck down the oppressive sodomy laws, gay people still do not have civil protections in many states and localities in this country. It goes beyond politely asking people NOT to support oppressive laws (like FMA or anti-civil statutes, etc.), but actively trying to secure protections THAT WE SHOULD HAVE based on our US Constitution.

Now, let me ask you: do you think quiet gays or activist gays have been the leaders in pushing to change the laws so that A's & B's relationship is viewed as having equal standing under the law? Do you think that passive accommodation or activism--and here I'm not talking about parties, because Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, Democratic Socialists, etc., have fought for gay rights--has been the agent of change? Do you seriously think that the people out in front of securing our rights--some of whom are marching in those parades, as drag queens, leathermen, baton twirlers, go-go boys, or just plain-Joe and Jane lawyers, doctors, teachers, etc.--are causing the hatred we--even quiet gays and lesbians (since you always seem to leave the women out)--are experiencing?

Keep in mind that black people did ask--beg, plead, cajole--whites to end slavery. Women did politely ask to vote and tried to sway their husbands, brothers, fathers--the very people they brought into this world and cared for. Gays have over the years--centuries!--written defenses of gay love and lives, paeans to our decency, our normalcy, our shared humanity. And lo and behold!--a few oppressors changed their tunes, and there have always been enlightened people (especially after the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason), but you know what? In general, little changed until people stepped up their activism. Yep. That's how things work. Not always, but usually.

BTW, it doesn't have to be either/or, of course. There are quiet gays who do also march wrapped in rainbow flags. Now I ask you, are you forming a partnership--which sounds so corporate!--with another gay man? Are you building a home with him? Are you living among and working with other quiet gays, and letting the straights you know know that when they are indifferent or hostile to gay people, they're harming you and your gay partner, to spark this revolution? If so, I applaud you. But you know, nothing is going to happen until you at least take the steps to find that other gay man and create something with him.

[ July 05, 2004, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

OK--don't take it from me--my opinion is worthless. Read Beyond Queer instead.

I think AIDS forced many gays out of the closet and killed many more who refused to confront the reality of it and seek medical help. I have nothing against being "quietly gay". I've always been quiet until I see ignorance that needs to be addressed. Being "aggressively gay" when it is not in ones nature is dishonest and may make an asumption that others are homphobic and need to be educated when they may not be. I don't want to be prejudged so I try not to make assumptions about others. Each activist his own.

You know, I could buy into this to a degree, if this in fact described you. But you have made it quite clear that you are not even "out" to that level. Based on what you have said in various threads here, you can't even say the words "I'm gay" to your friends, family or acquaintenances. How can you begin to set an example as someone who is quietly gay, when your silence is deafening?

Despite what you may think from some of my responses in other threads, I am much closer to the quietly gay model than the rainbow flag waving model. Yet, I recognize their (flamboyant queens) importance in moving forward the cause.

You, however, don't even approach living your life quietly gay. If you think it's the best way to go, then why not do it? What are you waiting for? Let your friends, family, neighbors know you are gay, but don't make a big deal about it. Go on and live your life and set the example that you think is appropriate. Instead, you remain completely in the closet, stomping your feet and whining in these forums about public perception of gays. Public perception will not change until people such as yourself set an example and show that not all gay people are flamboyant, wear dresses, and go prancing down the street half naked on a float (did I get all the "negative" images in there?).

What really gets people in here mad at you, is your constant put down of other gays, when you yourself don't even lead the life that you espouse is the "right" way. You'd have a lot more credibility if you actually practiced what you preached. Stop using them as an excuse for your own inability to deal with your homosexuality and come out and be quietly gay. Stop being the drama queen (must be your opera side), whining that you can't lead your life how you want because of the "in your face" gays. Take responsibility for your own life, and lead it how you want.

I take full responsibility for the way I choose to deal with my homosexuality. I think that I have done a better job dealing with it in my life than those who make a spectacle of themselves. I have dealt with my life privately and quietly, standing up for gays in my classes, in my church, with my friends. I think I have made many healthy choices. Maybe people have had more sex, but I look back on many loving relationships with men. You can have a fulfilling life without sexual adventuring. I present myself honestly to the world every day. People can decide what labels they want to give me without me telling them.

Let's not make this into another thread about me, OK?