Full Version: McCain upset with anti-Kerry "Swift Boat" ads
Spare us your sanctimonious, one-sided cliche-mongering FT! You've been watching reruns of Mary Frances Berry's Florida Inquisition too long - maybe you SHOULD make that Long March across the Hudson to see democracy in action at the GOP Convention - and those who are pledged to subvert it lurking outside. I wonder if we'll see Lani Guinier and her harebrained electoral schemers in that mix? "Rig" elections? You don't know the half of it - and refuse to acknowledge the rest!
QUOTE
gmginsfo:
maybe you SHOULD make that Long March across the Hudson to see democracy in action at the GOP Convention -
HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAmaybe you SHOULD make that Long March across the Hudson to see democracy in action at the GOP Convention -
Good one GMG!!!
Would FT be welcomed with open arms like Log Cabin will be???!!!
"Democrary in action" - oh, as long as you're hetro.
"Inclusion wins!"
[ August 26, 2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: RazorbackTX ]
Getting back to the issue (please!), there was another very thoughtful op-ed in the W. Post today, from Noel Koch, who worked in both the Nixon and Reagan administrations:
Nice to hear a voice of reason once in a while.
QUOTE
\"They want me to head Veterans,\" Bob Dole said. \"They\" meant the Bush White House. His tone said there were things he would rather do.
I asked him whether he was going to do it -- take on the campaign role of going after the veterans' vote. \"Probably have to,\" he said, although he added that he knew the Bush campaign would want him to attack John Kerry, and he didn't intend to do that. He didn't have anything against Kerry, he said.
The conversation in my old friend's Pennsylvania Avenue office took me back decades. In the 1970 off-year elections, Bob Dole, freshman senator from Kansas, campaigned so aggressively for Republican candidates that he was awarded the position of chairman of the Republican National Committee. It looked like one more giant step forward for the man whose war wound in April 1945 brought him near death on three separate occasions and kept him bedridden for years while other young veterans were starting careers. When he finally learned to walk again, he did it with a vow: \"I'm going to get those years back,\" he told his brother Kenny.
...
No one valued his independence more than Bob Dole, who had struggled for so long to regain it after years of dependency on others. Colson never understood that; he felt Dole should pay for the chairmanship, and it was assumed I could persuade him to do things he preferred not to do -- such as launching gratuitous attacks on his colleagues. \"They want me to get out there and accuse Teddy Kennedy of all kinds of stuff,\" he would complain. \"I'm not going to do that. I have to work with the guy. Besides, I like him.\"
Dole was no shrinking violet; he was willing to attack -- indeed, his reputation for it shadowed his career for years. But he was not willing to be manipulated. He refused to be used, and Colson swore Dole would pay for his defiance. After the 1972 election Dole was fired as party chairman. His bitterness was palpable: \"They invited me up the mountain [Camp David] and threw me off.\"
...
No one is better placed than Dole to know how arbitrary are the fortunes of war. It is not surprising to hear John Kerry's wounds belittled by men who have avoided all risk of being wounded. Someday perhaps we will be able to plumb the neuroses of those who avoided Vietnam and have ever after had difficulty living with the choice. But it is surprising to hear Bob Dole doing it. Kerry not hospitalized for his wounds? Bob Dole was not hospitalized for his first Purple Heart either.
\"It was just a scratch,\" he later recalled. \"I think one of our grenades hit a tree and bounced back.\" He received a Bronze Star, but that came much later, and was a bureaucratic exercise having little to do with his service as a platoon leader in the extraordinary 10th Mountain Division on April 14, 1945, the day his war ended, in Italy.
...
Bob Dole spent little time in combat. But as a result of the time he did spend, he lay on his back for years, recovering, and helping others to recover.
I spent a year in Vietnam and came home without a scratch. My brother served two tours in Vietnam, earned three Purple Hearts (and was hospitalized, and does draw disability -- weird yardsticks used to measure John Kerry's alleged shortfall), and yet spent far less time than I did in-country. Indeed, his first \"tour\" lasted about 15 minutes, ending on the beach near Danang in the midst of the U.S. Marines' first amphibious assault in Vietnam.
Time in-country, how often a man was wounded, how much blood he shed when he was wounded -- it is hurtful that those who served in Vietnam are being split in so vile a fashion, and that the wounds of that war are reopened at the instigation of people who avoided serving at all. It is hurtful that a man of Bob Dole's stature should lend himself to the effort to dishonor a fellow American veteran in the service of politics at its cheapest.
There was a time when he would have refused. I know. I was there.
When Bob Dole Said No I asked him whether he was going to do it -- take on the campaign role of going after the veterans' vote. \"Probably have to,\" he said, although he added that he knew the Bush campaign would want him to attack John Kerry, and he didn't intend to do that. He didn't have anything against Kerry, he said.
The conversation in my old friend's Pennsylvania Avenue office took me back decades. In the 1970 off-year elections, Bob Dole, freshman senator from Kansas, campaigned so aggressively for Republican candidates that he was awarded the position of chairman of the Republican National Committee. It looked like one more giant step forward for the man whose war wound in April 1945 brought him near death on three separate occasions and kept him bedridden for years while other young veterans were starting careers. When he finally learned to walk again, he did it with a vow: \"I'm going to get those years back,\" he told his brother Kenny.
...
No one valued his independence more than Bob Dole, who had struggled for so long to regain it after years of dependency on others. Colson never understood that; he felt Dole should pay for the chairmanship, and it was assumed I could persuade him to do things he preferred not to do -- such as launching gratuitous attacks on his colleagues. \"They want me to get out there and accuse Teddy Kennedy of all kinds of stuff,\" he would complain. \"I'm not going to do that. I have to work with the guy. Besides, I like him.\"
Dole was no shrinking violet; he was willing to attack -- indeed, his reputation for it shadowed his career for years. But he was not willing to be manipulated. He refused to be used, and Colson swore Dole would pay for his defiance. After the 1972 election Dole was fired as party chairman. His bitterness was palpable: \"They invited me up the mountain [Camp David] and threw me off.\"
...
No one is better placed than Dole to know how arbitrary are the fortunes of war. It is not surprising to hear John Kerry's wounds belittled by men who have avoided all risk of being wounded. Someday perhaps we will be able to plumb the neuroses of those who avoided Vietnam and have ever after had difficulty living with the choice. But it is surprising to hear Bob Dole doing it. Kerry not hospitalized for his wounds? Bob Dole was not hospitalized for his first Purple Heart either.
\"It was just a scratch,\" he later recalled. \"I think one of our grenades hit a tree and bounced back.\" He received a Bronze Star, but that came much later, and was a bureaucratic exercise having little to do with his service as a platoon leader in the extraordinary 10th Mountain Division on April 14, 1945, the day his war ended, in Italy.
...
Bob Dole spent little time in combat. But as a result of the time he did spend, he lay on his back for years, recovering, and helping others to recover.
I spent a year in Vietnam and came home without a scratch. My brother served two tours in Vietnam, earned three Purple Hearts (and was hospitalized, and does draw disability -- weird yardsticks used to measure John Kerry's alleged shortfall), and yet spent far less time than I did in-country. Indeed, his first \"tour\" lasted about 15 minutes, ending on the beach near Danang in the midst of the U.S. Marines' first amphibious assault in Vietnam.
Time in-country, how often a man was wounded, how much blood he shed when he was wounded -- it is hurtful that those who served in Vietnam are being split in so vile a fashion, and that the wounds of that war are reopened at the instigation of people who avoided serving at all. It is hurtful that a man of Bob Dole's stature should lend himself to the effort to dishonor a fellow American veteran in the service of politics at its cheapest.
There was a time when he would have refused. I know. I was there.
Nice to hear a voice of reason once in a while.
Apropos to Puckman's last post, here's a more quantitative analysis of the issue:Both Sides NOT!
How about the view of SOMEONE who was ACTUALLY THERE?
(Sorry, you must register to read the whole thing)
Chicago Tribune
Feb. 28, 1969: ON THE DONG CUNG RIVER
`This is what I saw that day'
By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 22, 2004
There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago--three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.
One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.
For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.
Many of us wanted to put it all behind us--the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's service--even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.
But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.
(Sorry, you must register to read the whole thing)
Chicago Tribune
QUOTE
Feb. 28, 1969: ON THE DONG CUNG RIVER
`This is what I saw that day'
By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 22, 2004
There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago--three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.
One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.
For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn't deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.
Many of us wanted to put it all behind us--the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry's service--even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.
But Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.
Whooops, Kerry just slipped a few points in the polls, nothing to see here... move on... let's get to the issues... like my falling numbers...
Your numbers are falling? I'm sorry to hear that, PF. Try Viagra.
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
Whooops, Kerry just slipped a few points in the polls, nothing to see here... move on... let's get to the issues... like my falling numbers...
If you're talking you're IQ numbers, don't worry. As the song goes, Nothing from Nothing leaves Nothing.
Whooops, Kerry just slipped a few points in the polls, nothing to see here... move on... let's get to the issues... like my falling numbers...
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
Whooops, Kerry just slipped a few points in the polls, nothing to see here... move on... let's get to the issues... like my falling numbers...
Where does your candidate stand in the polls?Whooops, Kerry just slipped a few points in the polls, nothing to see here... move on... let's get to the issues... like my falling numbers...
Grow a spine and tell us PhillyFan.
I see where McCain is calling these ads, "dishonest, and dishonorable", and calling for them to stop. He is also going to meet with Shrub in 4 days I hear, and will most likely be bringing this issue up with Shrub. Would love to be a fly on the wall in that room when he does!
QUOTE
puckman1:
I see where McCain is calling these ads, \"dishonest, and dishonorable\", and calling for them to stop. He is also going to meet with Shrub in 4 days I hear, and will most likely be bringing this issue up with Shrub. Would love to be a fly on the wall in that room when he does!
Senator McCain and President Bush spoke yesterday.I see where McCain is calling these ads, \"dishonest, and dishonorable\", and calling for them to stop. He is also going to meet with Shrub in 4 days I hear, and will most likely be bringing this issue up with Shrub. Would love to be a fly on the wall in that room when he does!
From today's Washington Post, McCain Joins Bush to Rein In Groups .
QUOTE
President Bush and Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) joined forces yesterday to seek legal action to reduce the influence of \"527\" political organizations, but the two remained in disagreement over whether Bush should condemn a television ad by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth attacking John F. Kerry's Vietnam service.
Bush called McCain en route to a campaign event in New Mexico to say his campaign would go to federal court to force the Federal Election Commission to prevent the independent groups -- named for the section of the tax code that governs their activities -- from raising and spending money in unlimited amounts.
Senator McCain referred to the first of the Swift Vet's ads as \"dishonest and dishonorable\", but does not attach that criticism to the more recent ads regarding Senator Kerry's April 1971 Foreign Relations Committee testimony. (The most recent ad draws attention to the question of whether Senator Kerry was in Cambodia in December 1968 as he has long stated.)Bush called McCain en route to a campaign event in New Mexico to say his campaign would go to federal court to force the Federal Election Commission to prevent the independent groups -- named for the section of the tax code that governs their activities -- from raising and spending money in unlimited amounts.
QUOTE
McCain, a prisoner of war in Vietnam, was among the first to condemn the veterans group for challenging Kerry's combat record and spoke out against the ad throughout his 90-minute luncheon interview. But he also said Kerry had invited scrutiny of his record by putting so much emphasis on Vietnam at the Democratic National Convention in Boston last month.
\"His critics are saying, 'Look, you made it fair game,' \" McCain said. \"I mean, that's very legitimate, and I think there's a risk that he took when he made it such a centerpiece. He may be paying a very heavy price.\"
McCain said that he urged Kerry sometime ago not to talk about Vietnam during his campaign. \"I did advise John. I said, 'Look, you shouldn't talk about Vietnam because everybody else will. Let everybody else do it.' His advisers figured that was probably not enough, that he had to emphasize that in his campaign. In my campaign, as you know, I didn't talk about it because I didn't need to.\" ...
McCain also said he drew a distinction between the first anti-Kerry ad by the veterans group, which focused on Kerry's Vietnam service, and a second ad now airing that criticizes Kerry for his leadership in the antiwar movement after he returned from Vietnam. McCain condemned the first ad but not the second...
Asked whether he is equally passionate in wanting to put Kerry's antiwar activities off-limits, he said, \"I think his activities after the war open, and are subject to, any debate and discussion that they want to, but I still say that it has the effect of reopening these wounds. Everybody is accountable for what they do, and certainly John Kerry is accountable for what he did after the war, and people can make a judgment.\"
\"His critics are saying, 'Look, you made it fair game,' \" McCain said. \"I mean, that's very legitimate, and I think there's a risk that he took when he made it such a centerpiece. He may be paying a very heavy price.\"
McCain said that he urged Kerry sometime ago not to talk about Vietnam during his campaign. \"I did advise John. I said, 'Look, you shouldn't talk about Vietnam because everybody else will. Let everybody else do it.' His advisers figured that was probably not enough, that he had to emphasize that in his campaign. In my campaign, as you know, I didn't talk about it because I didn't need to.\" ...
McCain also said he drew a distinction between the first anti-Kerry ad by the veterans group, which focused on Kerry's Vietnam service, and a second ad now airing that criticizes Kerry for his leadership in the antiwar movement after he returned from Vietnam. McCain condemned the first ad but not the second...
Asked whether he is equally passionate in wanting to put Kerry's antiwar activities off-limits, he said, \"I think his activities after the war open, and are subject to, any debate and discussion that they want to, but I still say that it has the effect of reopening these wounds. Everybody is accountable for what they do, and certainly John Kerry is accountable for what he did after the war, and people can make a judgment.\"
Just more of McCain trying to have it both ways, to continue to appeal to misguided "independents" while still marching in step with Bush.
re: mccain's odd love/hate relationship with bush. let me add my own two cents, and be advised right from the get-go that i have no sources, i'm unabashedly making this stuff up. someone has to.
why would a seeming man of integrity put up with all the s**t heaped upon him by the current administration, dating back to the 2000 primaries, be the good party soldier and help bush's reelection effort when he has said many times that he was sent to washington to do what's best for his constituents, not what's best for the republican party? this is, after all, the source of much of his appeal to independents.
bush is in trouble -- the race is too close to call, the economy is iffy, and iraq is worse than that. his base is locked up, but those pesky soccer moms and independents haven't climbed aboard the bush bandwagon yet. what to do? recruit a politician popular with independents to help sway them. enter mccain. but, again, what is his incentive?
i sense that the current crop of republicans care little about leadership or governance, and more about power -- having it, keeping it. keeping it means looking past a bush second term (assuming there is one). let's assume bush pulls out the election, by hook or by crook. then in 2008, who is the heir apparent? cheney? not a chance. he couldn't get elected with good heart.
here's where i start making it up.....so, i'm guessing cheney won't still be vp in 2008. the bad ticker is plenty of excuse to resign. then, bush would need to choose a replacement; someone to carry on into a third bush term (as gore failed to do for clinton). mccain's the man!
in exchange for stumping for bush despite being dissed at every turn, bush promises a soon-to-be-vacated vice presidency to mccain, who then, could run for president (you know he wants it!) as the incumbent vice president!
this is how i explain mccain's odd relationship with the bush team. but don't forget, i'm making this up.
why would a seeming man of integrity put up with all the s**t heaped upon him by the current administration, dating back to the 2000 primaries, be the good party soldier and help bush's reelection effort when he has said many times that he was sent to washington to do what's best for his constituents, not what's best for the republican party? this is, after all, the source of much of his appeal to independents.
bush is in trouble -- the race is too close to call, the economy is iffy, and iraq is worse than that. his base is locked up, but those pesky soccer moms and independents haven't climbed aboard the bush bandwagon yet. what to do? recruit a politician popular with independents to help sway them. enter mccain. but, again, what is his incentive?
i sense that the current crop of republicans care little about leadership or governance, and more about power -- having it, keeping it. keeping it means looking past a bush second term (assuming there is one). let's assume bush pulls out the election, by hook or by crook. then in 2008, who is the heir apparent? cheney? not a chance. he couldn't get elected with good heart.
here's where i start making it up.....so, i'm guessing cheney won't still be vp in 2008. the bad ticker is plenty of excuse to resign. then, bush would need to choose a replacement; someone to carry on into a third bush term (as gore failed to do for clinton). mccain's the man!
in exchange for stumping for bush despite being dissed at every turn, bush promises a soon-to-be-vacated vice presidency to mccain, who then, could run for president (you know he wants it!) as the incumbent vice president!
this is how i explain mccain's odd relationship with the bush team. but don't forget, i'm making this up.
Uh oh, now they are lumping on ole lurch...
http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-n...ws-novak27.html
Looks like he forgot to release all his docs of his "honorable" service, inbetween burnig down huts that is..
http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-n...nws-lips27.html
Maybe Lurch needs to start talking about his anti-war side, he did much better with that. He might drum up more biz buring the flag not soluting it.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-n...ws-novak27.html
Looks like he forgot to release all his docs of his "honorable" service, inbetween burnig down huts that is..
http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-n...nws-lips27.html
Maybe Lurch needs to start talking about his anti-war side, he did much better with that. He might drum up more biz buring the flag not soluting it.
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
Uh oh, now they are lumping on ole lurch...
http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-n...ws-novak27.html
Looks like he forgot to release all his docs of his \"honorable\" service, inbetween burnig down huts that is..
http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-n...nws-lips27.html
Maybe Lurch needs to start talking about his anti-war side, he did much better with that. He might drum up more biz buring the flag not soluting it.
Oh yeah, Novak... just so people know the TRUTH about his links to this filth: Uh oh, now they are lumping on ole lurch...
http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-n...ws-novak27.html
Looks like he forgot to release all his docs of his \"honorable\" service, inbetween burnig down huts that is..
http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-n...nws-lips27.html
Maybe Lurch needs to start talking about his anti-war side, he did much better with that. He might drum up more biz buring the flag not soluting it.
Columnist Novak has ties to anti-Kerry book
Is the CIA-agent-outing, treasonous, chicken-hawk little pimp brave or truthful enough to admit he was linked to these folks? Of course not--a typical right-wing chump.
QUOTE
Among the stoutest defenders of \"Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry,\" the best-selling book arguing that Mr. Kerry lied about his record of service in Vietnam, is the columnist Robert Novak.
In his syndicated columns and on the CNN program \"Crossfire,\" Mr. Novak has lauded the book and referred to veterans who criticize Mr. Kerry - most notably John E. O'Neill, the book's co-author - as \"real patriots.\"
Unmentioned in Mr. Novak's columns and television appearances, however, is a personal connection he has to the book: his son, Alex Novak, is the director of marketing for its publisher, the conservative publishing house Regnery.
Advertisement
In a telephone interview, Robert Novak said he saw no need to disclose the link.
\"I don't think it's relevant,\" he said.
\"I'm just functioning as a columnist with a point of view, and a strong point of view,\" he added.
In his syndicated columns and on the CNN program \"Crossfire,\" Mr. Novak has lauded the book and referred to veterans who criticize Mr. Kerry - most notably John E. O'Neill, the book's co-author - as \"real patriots.\"
Unmentioned in Mr. Novak's columns and television appearances, however, is a personal connection he has to the book: his son, Alex Novak, is the director of marketing for its publisher, the conservative publishing house Regnery.
Advertisement
In a telephone interview, Robert Novak said he saw no need to disclose the link.
\"I don't think it's relevant,\" he said.
\"I'm just functioning as a columnist with a point of view, and a strong point of view,\" he added.
Next week, the Toronto Film Festival will have the world premier of the documentary: Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry. The film will supposedly go into limited release on October 1st. It will be interesting to see if this film has any effect on public opinion on Kerry's "swift boat" service and his anti-war stance after returning from Vietnam.
[ September 07, 2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]
[ September 07, 2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: canmark ]
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