I live in Oklahoma, one of the reddest of the "red" states. Here's why, after having had two weeks to reflect on it, I'm not going anywhere:

For one thing, I'm lucky enough to have one of the best jobs I could possibly imagine, working for one of the best organizations and with some of the best people I could possibly imagine. Also, I don't yet have someone I consider a life partner or husband, so I haven't yet run into any issues that would prevent me from making any necessary legal arrangements.

There are many other reasons living here isn't the nightmare people think. People don't riot here when the team wins/loses a big game. We certainly do party, but we just don't have the pointless destructive riots. People are far friendlier here than most other places I've visited around the country, even when they know you're gay (outward hostility toward gay people here is still rare). Statistically, people are far more likely to give to charity, even though their income is generally lower. Volunteerism for the military is disproportionally higher around here than in most "blue" states, as is the rate of military casualties overseas.

The reason people around here vote for anti-gay candidates and ballot measures is NOT because they are stupid or bigoted. It's because they're ignorant, and there is an important difference between ignorance and bigotry. Most people here aren't exposed to any gay people, because there are so few openly gay people to be exposed to. They believe the BS they are fed by their pastors and far-right-wing politicians, because they have no other evidence to believe. For example, I still hear people and read newspaper editorials that claim the average gay man has 1000s of partners in his lifetime. People actually believe some really nonsensical stuff.

I'm sure it would be a lot easier to surround myself with people who are accepting and think like me in a place like WeHo, Castro or PTown. Needless to say, life is far from perfect around here, because ignorance can really turn into an ugly thing. But, I think it's clear that the way to combat ignorance is not to run and hide in the gay neighborhoods of big cities on the coasts, nor is it to run to Canada, but to confront the problem head on by simply being here and showing people I'm not the monster they've been led to believe. The toddler down the street in the fundamentalist family who turns out to be gay might have it a little easier, so it's worth it. So, I guess I'm not going anywhere for awhile.

Good post sooner.

Well, unfortunately most of BLUE America, including the predominantly gay areas of blue America, is not the gross stereotype you've painted. I'm glad you're glad in Oklahoma and that people treat you well knowing you're homosexual. I'm glad you like your job, and that you're not discriminated against because you're gay. I'm glad that you don't have to face any legal issues based on your sexuality, particularly involving a long-term partner or spouse or loved one, which do affect people in red and blue states. In fact, I'm delighted Oklahoma is so peachy keen for you.

In truth, beyond the gross stereotypes, blue America is quite diverse, including the predominantly gay areas of blue America. In fact, blue America is hardly a paradise for homosexuals, yet millions of the people in these states are willing to look to national leadership that is not going to PERSECUTE us, use as a wedge issue to hold onto power. Moreover, many of the blue states are among hte largest in population. Were we to have a draft, the blue state casualties would be higher. As it is, we're underwriting this war (along with all the giveaways to the red states), so let's not get into comparisons on volunteerism or anything else, okay? At the same time, no matter WHERE ONE LIVES, we should all have equal protection UNDER THE LAW. This is part of our Constitution, which people fought and died for. Not just in the Blue states, but in red ones too.

Actually, I think it's important that homosexuals live in all 50 states, and live openly in all 50 states, which will challenge the notion--held even and obviously by some homosexuals--that we are all alike, or that we all live in Ptown or whatever other caricature you or someone else wants to toss out there as yet another way of attacking us.

[ November 16, 2004, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

I've painted no stereotype. I don't presume to know what it's like to live in a \"blue\" America because I never have (though I've been lucky enough to visit there and meet people from there). What I'm saying is there is a lot of stereotyping going on here of \"red\" America in a number of threads right now about divorce rate, moving to Canada, etc. All I'm saying is life here isn't the nightmare so many here seem to think it is.

Don't be so defensive. I meant to convey quite the opposite...life here is NOT particularly easy, but that's no reason to run away.

You're preaching to the choir. If you look back at the threads about the FMA, election results, etc., I have frequently bashed the people who use gays as a scapegoat, and I certainly don't hesitate to vote against them.

But there is no draft, and the fact is people from places like Oklahoma, Florida, Arkansas, and Texas fight and die at a disproportionate rate in today's volunteer military. That's probably more a function of income and education than political/religious views. Yes, of course the "blue" states tend to pay more both for the war and "giveaways" to the "red" states as you call them, but I never claimed they don't.

Two good posts, Sooner. You stuck to the facts and refuted speculation without rancor. I'd wish you happiness and success in your choice to stay in OK, but you don't need either; you've got the attitude that will bring you both in life. But, I'll wish you both and all the best anyway! :cool:

The divorce rates are not a "stereotype" but a fact. The Blue states--and Massachusetts in particular--were openly mocked by George W. Bush during this past election. Openly mocked. I did not hear a single major commentator trash Oklahoma, okay? Not one. Not even after Oklahomans voted into our U.S. Senate an obviously psychotic individual who 1) sterilized a young woman against her will and then bilked the government for it; 2) claimed that "lesbianism" was "rampant" in some schools in your state; and 3) went on the record as calling for doctors performing abortions to be killed. No one mocked Oklahoma.

As I said, I am glad you are there and living your life. But I am not going to have my life, the places I live, the person I am, mocked either by my enemies or by other homosexuals who are just as willing to buy into the stereotypes about us as anyone else. Ultimately we will all be better off if we are able to live freely and openly WHEREVER we are in the country, and that includes Oklahoma AND Massachusetts, where, thankfully, even the conservatives were unwilling to go along with that state's Republican governor's plans to put his people in office. Gay marriage and gay people are not the problem; hatred, homophobia, heterosexism, and other forms of discrimination are.

I have a question

Fantom are you really this angry in real life? Maybe it is just me but NOT EVERYTHING in life is based on race, sex, or being a big ole homo.

W won the election. It's time to accept that fact and move on with your life. Instead of all you "blue state, we are smarter than all you dumbasses"... why dont you work within your party to....

1. Find a decent candidate.
2. Stop trying to go 180 degrees from everything the repubs say.
3. Appleal to middle america.
4. Stop thinking ya'all are soooo much smarter, so much more educated, so much more sophisticated than the rest of ameria. Fact is, you are not.
5. If you havent noticed, people from the "blue" states are moving to the "red" states... why? cause they are sick of all the BS your Blue State libs are doing to them.

The dems lost seats in the senate and the house.

Good posts Sooner. For the record, I'm from a "blue" state (more relevant, I'm from a "blue" city), and I didn't detect any stereotyping or mocking of anything or anyone in your posts. I took them for what they are: rational reasons for staying in a state that voted Republican, rather than moving to a more liberal region or country.

ditto. also from a guy in "blue" city (but in a "red" state).

lighten up, fantomas. we're all friends here.

I appreciate your posts JASooner. I'm from OK, and now live in red Kansas (only a mile or so from swing state MO). The average person in OK, like in other states, is nice and considerate to the average gay person, except in the voting booth. Daily life is not a living hell for gay people in red states. It's the elected officials and clergy who are hateful, and I believe they it's primarily for political gain and power. Those people have more pull and more power in the red states, largely because of that "ignorance" you mentioned. I've mentioned before that I'm proud of OK voters for NOT electing the most virulently homophobic candidate to the governer's office last year.

And OKC has quite a thriving gay scene, with the Habana Inn and the little neighbhorhood of bars. We go there for a long weekend of poolside partying each summer, and always meet the coolest people.

Thanks, Sooner, for expressing such an interesting viewpoint. And thanks also for having perspective. It's very welcome around these parts.

There seems to be a lot of stereotyping of "blue" and "red" just as there is of "liberal" and "conservative" or "christian" and "non-christian" (which doesn't mean unchristian before someone jumps to conclusions on that one as well).

I don't recall colors being such buzz word before. Next I suppose we'll be splitting into "black" and "white" again.

I hope we don't lose sight of homophobia as evil.

I am a blue voter in a blue city in a blue state and I think that OK would be far worse off if everyone like Sooner moved elsewhere. The only way to bridge the gaps in this country is by having people of all shades in all states.

I am growing weary of the bickering and baiting among blues and reds both out in the real world and around here. We're only responsible for ourselves and our personal beliefs and accomplishments, not for the short-comings nor the virtues of those who live within our state borders.

[quote]EricNC:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Weaselman:
[qb] ditto. also from a guy in \"blue\" city (but in a \"red\" state).

lighten up, fantomas. we're all friends here. [/quote]Uh, do you read PhillyFan's posts, or Veritas's?

And I have lived (not just visited, but lived) in two red states, and experienced anti-gay discrimination in both. Complete equality is and should be the goal, red or blue.

As for ignorance:

"There is nothing more frightful than an active ignorance." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Where ignorance is bliss, 'Tis folly to be wise."
- Thomas Gray

Or, perhaps more apropos of the election we're all being told to "get over," here's a quote from one of the greatest American writers, a red-state native all the way:

"All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure." - Mark Twain

[ November 17, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

I actually agree with 1-4 for the most part. 5 may have something to do with climate (it's kinda cold up here in winter)

Again, I appreciate Sooner's post, and I wish Fantomas wasn't attacking him so vigorously. I'm not even sure of his point with all of the ignorance quotes (perhaps that means I'm ignorant). Sooner had a great post, in that he's going to combat ignorance by staying put and putting a face to this "horrible gay lifestyle" they keep hearing about. I'd say that's a far more effective way to change some attitudes than moving away.

Fan only sees things in 2 ways...

Those who agree with him 100% and life falls into only race and sexuality... the rest are either...

Racists
homophobes
racist-homophobes

Personally instead of a racist homophobe, i'd rather be called a bigot.

At the end of the day, some people are book smart and some of us have common sense.

Aquaman, you hit it in a nutshell. Without those of us in the "red", well, "redneck" in my case, states, these people would never be exposed to gays. I live more life quite comfortable here in Alabama and don't intend to move.

Explain the difference if you can.

I wasn't ATTACKING him! I was responding to his comments about people "hiding" in gay enclaves, his boosterism about people from "red" states and so on. Perhaps you missed it, but W and company repeatedly (and still are doing so) trashed people in the blue states, particularly people on the coasts. And they went after homos with a vengeance. It's still going on, though the election was decided two weeks ago.

The quotes: Sooner said that people weren't bigoted but "ignorant." I'll grant that. The quotes refer to the ignorant people, NOT HIM. It was NOT AN ATTACK ON SOONER.

The final quote, by Twain, refers to Dumbya, just so it's crystal clear.

As for PhiddlePhaddle, not a word more.

When I read threads like this, it makes me glad not to live in the USofA, land of plenty etc. etc. As long as you have people like Fantomas blasting someone for having an opinion that isn't in line with his opinion, you will continue to have hatred, be it for sexual preference or for the color of your skin.

And I too was wondering about the difference between being a racist homophobe or a bigot...

Misqui, it is a culture difference.
Red versus blue when we should all be green.

I'm just saying that life comes down to 2 things for fan... the color of your skin, or your sexuality. Anything bad that happens, or he doesnt like is based on those 2 things.

This in and of itself is the WORST form of racism there is.

Damn, it must be snowing near the crust of the earth, because I'm finding myself agreeing with PhillyFan.

I need therapy.

This is so stupid it's not even funny. The worst form of "racism" there is or was existed in Nazi Germany, as you well know, so please, wake up. Truthfully, I wish our society actually functioned according to its best principles of true equality for ALL of us under of the law, in which case, issues of race, gender, class, religious affiliation, language facility, etc., would not be the issues they are. In either red or blue states. Or in Peru.

As a representative of a swing state I say "Amen, brother!"

I wrote this a week or so ago in my blog...sorta fits here...

I was hoping...

NJ

Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with this thread like I wanted to. I didn't consider your posts, fantomas, a personal attack (I've been attacked personally many times on message boards, so I know!). Yes, a lot of people attacked "blue" America on false grounds. But, you seem to be failing to accept that many people attacked "red" America on false grounds before, during, and after the election, and people around here are offended by the attacks on them as you are about the attacks on you. See any number of pieces of evidence, such as the "F--- the south" rant, and any number of threads here talking about how 60 million people are stupid bigoted rednecks.

There's nothing wrong with living in gay enclaves...it's probably the wisest thing to do for people in a LTR for instance, and it certainly would provide a better standard of living. But, I have only two points: 1. People in "red" America will never be exposed to gays if we all live in gay enclaves, and this is no way to confront their ignorance. 2. Life in "red" America isn't as hellish as many here have made it out to be, for any number of reasons.