Another American apparently beheaded by our lovely muslim friends...

NJ


[Thread title modified for clarity. - Outsports moderator]

[ June 18, 2004, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: m1 ]

That poor man. I don't know how anyone could do something like that to another human being. Terrible.

This is just unspeakably horrific. Just horrific.

And he is not the first American who has been killed by pro-Al Qaeda and Al Qaeda-linked monsters in Saudi Arabia this year. I posted about the torture, murder and dragging through the streets of an American in Yanbu by Al Qaedists in Saudi Arabia several months ago. There was almost zero response, except from Twin and a few others.

Saudi Arabia's government and its clerics have supported Al Qaeda in the past, and their bumbling continues to allow these hateful people to get away with waaaay too much.

This is getting scary. Shrub has really put America and Americans in harms way and created such hatred towards Americans all over the world. :mad:

Fantomas, I hear you loud and clear, but forget not, Shrub is in bed with the Royal family. If you ask me they talk out of both sides of their mouth. It may be time to re-examine our friendship with Saudi Arabia, but they won't I am sure. :mad:

I am far from a Bush supporter but, I think this sort of Anti-American violence would happen even if we had NOT invaded Iraq.

In my mind, there are three wars happening at once....

1. The War in Iraq

2. The War on Terror

3. Muslims vs. Christians

I think #3 is the primary war in the eyes of Muslims.

I think prior to 9.11. Americans were fairly indifferent to what was going on "over there" because it didn't have a primary effect on them until the Twin Towers were hit.

Then the American public split in to two primary groups...those that supported the War on Terror and saw the War in Iraq as part of that War. And, those that supported the War on Terror, but were against the War in Iraq. (a group I fit in to)

But deep down, I believe there is an undercurrent, even among American's who may not consider themselves active Christians, that this is really an "Us vs. Them" war or a "Jesus vs. Mohammad" War.

I think the current situation is far more complex then pointing the finger solely at the Bush Administration.

The entire world is in alot of trouble folks...I truly believe the worst is yet to come.

NJ

The Saudis started and funded a mess that will mushroom regardless; whatever band-aid they try applying now won't stop AQ in all the other countries it has supporters in. Avoiding Saudi Arabia is easy enough for most Americans; it's practically a hardship post. With civilian Americans being captured and beheaded, the danger now is in places like Indonesia (there goes carefree Bali). Not to be flip, but this second beheading will really chill traveling/living abroad.

Oh, give me a frickin' break! Every damn administration since the House of Saud founded that country has been in bed with them! Grow up and stop acting like this is Bush's fault.

I have absolutely no love for Saudi Arabia, but this is a Muslim thing. I am having a very difficult time believing that Islam is nothing but a violent cult that ought to be wiped from the face of the earth. My irrational, human side of me thinks that. I only hope it won't be my controlling opinion.

I think thats a majority feeling among most American's and Christians....

Take out the word "Islam" and replace it with "Christianity" and you have the majority opinion among the Arab World.

Organized religion will be the death of us all.

NJ

Extremists the world over do terrible things in the name of religion. Islam is as valid and beautiful a religion as any other; all paths lead to God.

There is nothing sacred or holy in these actions and, despite their words, terrorists are not acting according to Islam's philosophies. As easy as it is to look across an ocean and blame the religion, we have to remember that. Blanket hostility is part of the problem and if the war on terror is to be won, we have to elimate this sort of attitude at home. I know that's easier said than done. I understand the temptation to brand them all heathens. Believe me, 9/11 happened in my backyard, I understand. But keeping our heads level is a must.

The difference between Islam and christianity is the fact that wingnuts in christianity get a reality check. They are constantly denounced etc. Right now in Islam no one is standing up to the freaks. Until the muslim population sticks up for themselves, nothing will change. The entire religion deserves scorn and should be called out for what they are doing.

As usual we have the W is to blame for this crowd, NICE very nice.

In all honesty, Al Queda has had to change their tactics. The people of Iraq are turning on them for the bombs killing innocent people. Same in Saudi Arabia. Now they take a hostage and kill them on tv. Looks to me like a sign of desperation. I hope that Al queda doesnt start making these hostages take their pants off or you guys might get really offended.

jihad

Strictly, my opinion, but religion is the main cause of so much murder and oppression:
One of the most serious human failings is a rigid belief in the two option theory - i.e. that there are often two and only two possible alternatives:

A belief is either true or false;
An act is either good or evil;
A person is composed of body and soul;
Everyone goes either to Heaven or Hell after death;
There are two supernatural beings: God and Satan; etc.

We don't allow for a third or fourth possibility.

Alot of people do not realize that what one group may consider to be a heroic act, others consider it to be a despicable, cowardly act. This will lead people to a sequence of beliefs that can descend into genocide.

Christian/Muslims each believe:

Their own faith tradition is all good.
All other religious traditions are evil.
Their own deity are the only good supernatural force in the universe.
God(s) and Goddess(es) of any other religions are really Satan or demonic spirits.
Believers of other religions are evil. Which leads them to believe that they are sub-human so, they have no right to exist.
It is acceptable to advocate the mass murder of followers of other religions. By exterminating believers of other religions, one is doing "God's will".

I read once where at a "Youth for Christ" rally a Speech was entitled "Tolerance is the Worst Roar of All". It included encouraging Christian youth to show NO tolerance for homosexuals, feminists, and religions that don't follow Christ."

A few years ago a Baptist pastor in Kileen recommended that the U.S. Army round up and "napalm all Wiccans".

People (especially men :confused: ) can be motivated by their devout faith to cheerfully exterminate people of a different faith.

The "ethnic cleansing" of the Muslims in Bosnia. Serbian Orthodox "believers" quoted the book of Joshua to justify the slaughter. They saw it as "God’s will to slay the infidels."

Another occurred in Vietnam when some American soldiers also "quoted from Joshua to condone the My Lai massacre. They claimed that butchering babies would purge Vietnam of the 'commie stain,' and that they were on God’s side."

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

NJ

One flaw in your theory: Many (if not most) Christians and Muslims don't believe those things. Perhaps if you had said " Extremist fundamentalist Christians and Muslims believe..."

Gaga4Gaby, THANK YOU for this important post. 9/11 happened in my backyard too--right across the river! The VAST MAJORITY of the more than one billion Muslims in the world--there are more outside the Middle East than in it--do not agree with these actions.

To splash all Muslims with the acid of these fanatics, who practice a form of Islam that is 1) not sanctioned by the Qu'ran itself and 2) that was fostered and nurtured initially in Saudi Arabia is offensive to the Muslim faith and to its majority. The vast majoirty is not committing these acts.

Moreover, casting it as a Christian vs. Muslim (a crusade) or Us vs. Them (excuse me, but there are millions of Muslims AND Arabs in the United States who are quite loyal to this country and its ideals) is simplistic, does not address the fact that most Muslims do NOT practice or espouse radical Islam, and also diverts attention from the fight against the primary sponsors of this kind of fanaticism, the conditions that foster it, and the people practicing it.

Saudi Arabia, which blithely looked on for so long as its clerics and wealthy citizens were exporting this hatefulness to all corners--because Medieval Islam, for all its faults, was NOTHING like this wackiness--and now it's come home to roost, in the most horrific way.

Show me Christians who are beheading people in the name of Jesus; and you can't bring up the Crusades or the Inquisition, either, for that's a part of ancient history.

It's not as if this is one whacked out Islamic group. There are so many Muslim nutcases it's hard to keep count. Where are the condemnations from the Mullahs and other Islamic leaders? If we're lucky, one little peep is heard from some insignificant Islamic hypocrite, but that's probably because he was forced into saying something.

I get disgusted by Fundamentalist Christians who act like idiots, but at least they're just a bunch of loud-mouthed idiots. I don't see Fallwell's or Robertson's followers cutting off the heads of people to get their day in the sun.

Perhaps we ought to start at the Mediterranean and just move east, eliminating every frickin' Muslin that exists. Any innocent victims we can just call acceptable losses. eek!

Seriously, though, I often wonder what stays the hand of God in such situations. Just as I'm sure Christ is quite unhappy with those who do harm in His name, I am sure God the Father is not pleased at all when his so-called followers murder in His name. Of course, I admit I wonder only because I'm human and cannot comprehend how God thinks or acts. I'm looking at this from a flawed human being's point of view.

[ June 18, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

Well as I noted, its strictly my opinion.

But, where are these masses of Progressive Christian and Muslims voicing their disgust when these things occur in our world?

NJ

Too bad the billion or so muslims dont grow some balls and speak out. Too bad the muslim leaders in america dont speak out. Too bad the leaders of the muslim nations dont speak out. Too bad the muslims newpapers dont speak out.

Until i start seeing this, they are all a bunch of cowards who allow their religion to be sidetracked by whacko wig nuts.

But hey, that is what you get when you keep your populations poor and uneducated.

This more tragic news out of the Middle East and I don't think the horrors will end anytime soon.

The beheading of Paul Johnson is the third such death of Americans by the extremists.

The other two, of course, are Daniel Pearl of the Wall Street Journal, and Nicholas Berg from PA.

My prayers go out for them and their families at hearing this awful news.

Christian extremists prefer guns and bombs.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-...G=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-...rudolph&spell=1

Maybe there isn't one.

[ June 18, 2004, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]

I don't think many of us as "Christian Americans" have the right to sit here and blame Islam and denounce the religion. Look at how gun-happy we are, look how many violent deaths there are in the U.S., etc. Is a double murder of an American in a suburb like there was here recently any worse than an American being killed by an Islamic fanatic? I hardly think it's any any better, but it's no worse. "Christians" kill eachother every day. It's only when it's a Christian killing an Islamic person or an Islamic person killing a Christian person, when it's of any interest.

Nathan Jones said it, organized religion is the death of us all!

Gaga4Gaby wrote:

"There is nothing sacred or holy in these actions and, despite their words, terrorists are not acting according to Islam's philosophies. As easy as it is to look across an ocean and blame the religion, we have to remember that."

Agreed.

And they look across the ocean at us as the Christian West acts against Christian and Judaic philosophies. This from the Bible and the Torah:

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

THIS IS ABOUT OIL!!! The vast reserves belong to Arab countries and we covet it. Israel is the flash point. We (the West) took land from Arabs and "installed" and continue to fund Israel so that we could control access to the region (OIL!).

Two points:

1. Our castigating the Arabs for going against the precepts of Islam is throwing stones from a glass house.

2. If you want to reduce bloodshed in the region, don't focus so much on deciding between Bush and Kerry. Rather, spend that time deciding whether to install solar panels or erect a windmill.

The Saudi royal family long turned a blind eye to the presence of Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia, fully aware that if the ruling powers moved to quash the organization, a civil war could easily develop & bring down the House of Saud. That is still the case: the Saudi government could go after Al Qaeda within its borders but the risk of civil war is too great. The fact the ranking Al Qaeda operative in Saudi Arabia was killed in a gun battle in the wake of the beheading of Paul Johnson is meaningless unless the House of Saud decides to fight to destroy Al Qaeda, even if it means the end of its own power. And, if such a civil war does come to pass, who knows what Saudi Arabia will look like after the battle--or how such a war could change the landscape of the Middle East. The Bush folk are in over their heads in Iraq & that's a cakewalk compared to what could hapen in Saudi Arabia.

~Adam

[ June 18, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Adam ]

[ June 18, 2004, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Adam ]

And your point is...? I was waiting to see how long it took for someone to bring up the example of some whacko who calls himself pro-life but murders an abortionist. You can't compare an isolated incident like that to the widespread Islamic Fundamentalism. Plus, many pro-life leaders publicly denounce such idiots' actions. Where, though, are the Islamic leaders?

Their silence is deafening.

Hogwash. This "it's about oil" argument is a tired one.

It's about these Fundamentalist whackos who do not, at any cost, want ANY kind of liberties for their people. If any type of western freedoms or simple, basic, human rights creep into their cloistered and twisted world, they have conniption fits. They're determined to ensure their own people are oppressed and repressed enough to not want to leave the dark, depressing world that is extreme Islam.

A democratic government or a people even partially free to them is the worst thing that can happen. Too bad for them it's the best thing that can happen to the rest of the world.

first of all..... there aren't beheadings by christian wingnuts. But there are christians who go around shooting and killing in the name of God. Just talk to the families of the abortion providers killed at their homes.
Where was the condemnation by Randall Terry for that? and haven't the KKK and other christian racists quote scriptures to justify slavery, jim crow laws, discrimination and killing of blacks?

and you say that you only hear a peep from marginal islamic clerics to condemn these killings. How do you know? are you watching Al-Arabiya? Al-Jazeera? I doubt you do.

I'll assume that you get the full range of the arab world's reaction as filtered through CNN or worse, FoxNews. Right? Do you think that their coverage of what's happening in the middle east is gonna be as complete as what is reported by the papers and stations in the middle east itself? Come on! You gotta know better than that!

If you care to watch the arabic news channels, they are available for viewing here in the US. Al-Jazeera is carried by the International Channel as well as other outlets.

here's a quote from Al-Jazeera's website there was also this there is and has been condemnation of the killings. yes, there are those who sympathize with the killers. But then... we have many in this country who sympathize with the torture and killing of arabs. Right?

I see that someone else beat me to the punch of bring up this angle while I was typing.

Isolated incident? didn't the harassment, bomb threats and the murders (plural) at abortion clinics happen more than as an "isolated incident"? It wasn't an "isolated incident" and many people thought that despite their own reluctance to kill someone, these killers were performing God's work (sound familiar?) by saving the unborn babies.

I see you say that "MANY pro-life leaders" denounced these killings. How many is "many"? was it the majority or the minority?

extremism is the same no matter the religion and any attempt to differentiate the wackos will only make your argument less valid.

I provided examples of Christian's killing non-believers in an earlier post this afternoon....however...

Serbians who opposed Bosnia's independence from Yugoslavia in 1991 began killing Croats and Muslims. The Serbs especially targeted Muslims and "ethnically cleansed" 1000's of non-christians.

In Nigeria, Hundreds of Christians and Muslims have already been killed in tit-for-tat killings over control of fertile farmlands in predominantly Christian Plateau, culminating in a massacre of Muslims in May 2004 that sparked bloody reprisal riots in the northern Nigerian state of Kano.

There is the ethnic struggle that may finally be ending in southern Sudan and the new one that has flared in Darfur province in western Sudan, the bizarre and bloody campaign of terror waged by the Lord's Resistance Army in northern Uganda, the civil war between the Muslims of northern Ivory Coast and Christians of the south, currently frozen by a ceasefire, the multi-sided war that still drags on half-heartedly in the eastern Congo and the war between Hutu guerrillas and the Tutsi-dominated government in Burundi. All of them have an overlay of Muslim-Christian hostility.

In Northern Ireland, "the troubles" are partly rooted in Catholic/Protestant differences, partly in political allegiances, and probably partly in hatreds that go back so far that the exact reason is lost in the mists of time.

Côte d'Ivoire: Muslims vs. Christian. Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..."

Cyprus. Christians & Muslims The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.

East Timor: Christians & Muslims. A Roman Catholic country. About 20% of the population has died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing.

Indonesia, province of Halmahera: Christians & Muslims 30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed.

Kashmir. Hindus & Muslims Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989.

Chechnya. Russian Orthodox Christians & Muslims. The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged on both sides.

Uganda. Christians, & Muslims. Christian rebels of the "Lord's Resistance Army" are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. These CHRISTIANS abduct about 2,000 children a year who are enslaved and/or raped.

NJ

thank you NJ for providing some much needed perspective.

MIB, as a "jurist", you should be familiar with trying to see the various elements and points of view of a given topic.

I do, ung, and if you're talking about pro-life leaders denouncing some nutjob who decides to murder an abortionist, there were many who did. Just because Randall Terry chose not to doesn't mean others didn't.

There were a lot more pro-life activists who condemned such acts than Islamic leaders who have condemned their religion's own acts.

Every religion, every ideology, every organization will have its extremists. It is up to the leaders of such entities to rise up and ensure that their members do not go off the deep end. Sadly, many do not.

you're setting a false double standard. when christians kill in the name of their religion, you label them nutjobs (nice word, that) and dismiss them as being on the fringe and non-representative of the mainstream.

when muslims kill in the name of their religion, an assumption is made that they are somehow official ambassadors of the muslim religion, and that their words and actions are representative of the billion, or so, muslims around the world. could they not be nutjobs, also?

i'm in london now on business, and the european news stations have been presenting a steady stream of muslim clerics condemning this latest killing. apparently, this isn't also being reported on the liberal american media. what a surprise.

Well, there is this little problem called free will - no leader of any religion can control the actions of all their followers - there will always be violence in the name of religion.

For me, the problem comes not when leaders fail to condemn such acts, but when the refuse to or simply cannot understand the impact their words and actions have on their followers in inciting those acts- directly or indirectly.

When leaders are narrowly doctrinaire, insisting that they know the "truth" and anyone who disagrees is wrong, immoral and evil, those leaders are creating the foundation for violence, even as they claim to denounce it. Calling gynecologists who perform abortions "murderers" sets the stage for some nutcase to kill them. Having dinner parties where you praise and salute the killers doesn't help either. The same goes for Muslim clerics who denounce all things Western, for Southern Baptist ministers who upheld the superiority of white over black in the last 150 years, for the anti-Semitic Fr. Coughlin's of the world and on and on.

The unifying problem in all of this rhetoric is moral arrogance - the belief that anyone can know the mind of God. Without a little humility, and the ability to at least consider the possibility that you may be wrong, we will always end up with the foundation for this kind of violence.

Not that this solves everything, but some good news in Saudi Arabia as Johnson's killers are hunted down and killed.

My question is how do they know these four people are the same four who held him? I mean, at first they said that people saw these four dumping the body and that's why they were caught. But now they are saying that they don't know where the body is. So that doesn't make any sense.

Also, after Berg's death, they immediately caught and killed his captors.

Is there any actual evidence or are they just catching some Al Qaeda militants and then saying we caught the killers??

One of these \"nutjobs\", Eric Rudolph, was looked on favourably by much of the christian right and was given aid, assistance and refuge to avoid capture.

as for Randall Terry, you can't say \"just because Randall Terry didn't.... others did.\" That's equating Terry with others. That is an incorrect read of the pro-life movement and the single greatest force in that movement, Operation Rescue.

Randall Terry as head of Operation Rescue was undoubtedly the symbol of the anti-abortion forces as Bin Laden is the head and symbol of Al-Qaeda.

tell me, how does the following reflect on christianity? How would a muslim arab process this man's claim to represent christianity?

right.... quite lovely, that.

Well, the body ISN'T Johnson's...and who's to say that the four--or so the Saudis claim--people killed were Al Qaedists, including the head Al Qaeda person they earlier declared? What really is going on over there?

To the conservative people on the board, what are your thoughts about the Saudis and how they're mishandling the terrorism problems there? Do you think they have too much influence in U.S. affairs already? How can the GOP, adminstration, in its las months in office, lean on them ore to clean up their affairs and take the threats and attacks like this one more seriously?

Ft, I started a separate thread on Saudi Arabia, so visit that one, but please, don't pop in there so sanctimoniously blaming the Bush Administration for problems with Saudi Arabia. Every Administration since the House of Saud began has been in bed with the kingdom.

On the other subject of Johnson's killers getting their due, I believe the killers were, indeed, caught. All the major networks ran extensive reports on the terrorists killed by Saudi authorities, including the death of Saudi Arabia's most wanted terrorist. With the footage and other evidence shown, it sure looks clear that Johnson's murderers met justice.

Yes. But didn't all the major networks also report the veracity of the WMDs in Iraq?

I'm having trouble automatically believing any official info out of Saudi Arabia vis-a-vis their own anti-terror campaign

Yes. But didn't all the major networks also report the veracity of the WMDs in Iraq?

I'm having trouble automatically believing any official info out of Saudi Arabia vis-a-vis their own anti-terror campaign

Now there's a South Korean being held hostage and his life is threatened if demands are met in 24 hours.

Yes, but at least here we have several pictures of the terrorists' dead bodies. Included are many face shots identifying the individuals.

[ June 21, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: MIB ]

before the war, we were shown satellite pics detailing the "exact locations" of the WMDs. This was presented as such to the UN and the media and was reported by the news outlets/networks accordingly.

This website itself has talked about how many things like pictures on the internet may not be what it appears to be.

Is saudi Arabia really that gung-ho about cracking down on islamic extremists? Even as its own military, police and members of the royal family support the very same extremism?

Did they really kill the heads of the saudi Al-Qaeda?

If cracking the group and killing it's members and leader really is that simple, why did they not do that before? and why in a nation with such dedication still gripped by kidnappings, roving massacres of foreigners to this day? Can't Saudi Arabia stop it? or do they really require years in order to stop weekly if not daily terror activity?

Again, I do not trust anything that comes out of Saudi Arabian sources before INDEPENDENT confirmation.
I remind you that the Sauds had previiously reported finding the beheaded body. That is not the case.

"Sanctimoniously"? Oh, you are too rich, you phantom (fantom?) jurist you!

W and his Daddy have been DEEP under the covers with the Sauds, far more than any of our other presidents. You can find out more about this in the highly informative book, HOUSE OF SAUD, or just go see "Fahrenheit 9/11." Salem bin Laden, by the way, helped get li'l W his start years ago...which might be one reason that he made sure those bin Ladens and other Saudis got to fly out when planes were grounded after 9/11. But anyways, it's all in "Fahrenheit 9/11." Go see it, and try not to be too sanctimonious!

Also, I'm with Ung. I don't trust anything coming out of Saudi Arabia. Aren't they still using books in their schools that condemn the U.S. and Israel, though Bandar claimed they'd stopped this? And now haven't the Al Qaedists over there claimed to have gotten help from the Saudi forces--strange that these folks have repeatedly "escaped'--though the official story is that they're personae non gratae? Where is Johnson's body? Why did they say they'd found it? What else are they lying or dissembling about? Are you at all upset because that poor South Korean man is now being threatened? Are you upset at all that they regularly torture and brutally kill people who are suspected of or convicted of being homosexuals?

And where are all those WMDs?

[ June 21, 2004, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Now why would I want to waste my time watching a fictitious piece of crap like that? It didn't take you much time to cite that ridiculous film. Kinda like citing the NYT, which no longer has a shred of journalistic credbility and is so extreme in its left-wing slant it's frightening.

I'm just grateful presidents like Carter and Clinton were never in bed with the House of Saud. They sure had the answers to dealing with them.

I just heard our *cough* President on NPR making a statement about this brutal beheading.

I just seethe with he tries to explain the psyche of Islamic extremists to the American people, starting with his condescending, "See, what they're trying to do is, they're trying to..." and then he attempts to explain in pre-school terms why he thinks this occured. It's no wonder his poll numbers are plummeting when he practically belittles the 'murken people by talking to them that way. Yeah, yeah, goofball, we can draw our own conclusions about how/why this occured, and how all attempts to stop it failed, yet miraculously the terrorists were caught and killed immediately after the deed was done. And about how the Berg beheading appears to have been staged under highly questionable circumstances. And... etc. etc. etc.

Well the South Korean was beheaded.

Today a video surfaced of the U.S. Marine that was missing for a few months showing him being shot in the head.

A U.S. Marine is still being held hostage as well as a few Turks.