quote:
----It's insurance for the soul. We've been told so often that we'll burn in hell if we don't believe in God that people hedge their bets---
And an all-knowing God would have no idea you didn't really have faith and only cared about self preservation ?!
Full Version: Gays and Religion
Hey BoSoxRudy, that's a cool icon you got there? Where'd you get it, Satan.com?
[quote]And an all-knowing God would have no idea you didn't really have faith and only cared about self preservation ?!
Of course He would! But that point seems lost on a lot of people I've discussed the subject with. They seem to think that they're just a bit more clever than the entity that allegedly created them.
UGAGuy, whatever.
[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]
[quote]And an all-knowing God would have no idea you didn't really have faith and only cared about self preservation ?!
Of course He would! But that point seems lost on a lot of people I've discussed the subject with. They seem to think that they're just a bit more clever than the entity that allegedly created them.
UGAGuy, whatever.
[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]
I'd never really thought of that counter-argument to Pascal's Bet.
[quote]Originally posted by Jim Allen:
Do you have a source for that? If there's archealogical or written proof of Jesus' existence, then I haven't heard of it. No reputable person in either the fields of archaeology or history without a vested interest in the existence of Jesus would make that claim. The adoption of Christianity by Rome and its subsequent proliferation do NOT indicate that Jesus actually existed.
[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]
Actually there is one record that exists written by a Jewish historian, Josephus, in the year 93 in which he writes about a man named Jesus who was a miracle worker and lived in the time of the Roman Procurator, Pontius Pilate.
It isn't first hand-- Josephus was relying on the stories that continued to be told about this man Jesus. However, Josephus certainly is not out to promote the cause of Jesus.
Of course, as with anything 2000 years old and of such import, there is major controversy around the document. But for my money it is as close to a 'document' as you are going to get.
The Gospels themselves are a written record of the existence of Jesus. However, they too present their own challenges-- number one being that they were written by those who believed in him anyway. Another difficulty is that they are not 'historical' in the sense that we think of history. But then, I think you are going to be hard pressed to find any written record from back then that would pass our 'test of authenticy' as a historical document. We just have a different concept of history than they did.
But stop and think for a moment: the guy came from a non-descript family in BC Israel. Why would we assume anyone would have taken an interests in him or what he was saying, and therefore felt the need to save documents about him until long after the fact? How much authentic archealogical or written proof do we have about some of the Roman emperors? I can answer that. Very little actually, esp when considering the role that the emperor played in the history of the world. So lets not dismiss Jesus just because he didn't have the bureauracracy (sp?) behind him.
Interesting topic though
[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: wrstlinfan ]
Do you have a source for that? If there's archealogical or written proof of Jesus' existence, then I haven't heard of it. No reputable person in either the fields of archaeology or history without a vested interest in the existence of Jesus would make that claim. The adoption of Christianity by Rome and its subsequent proliferation do NOT indicate that Jesus actually existed.
[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]
Actually there is one record that exists written by a Jewish historian, Josephus, in the year 93 in which he writes about a man named Jesus who was a miracle worker and lived in the time of the Roman Procurator, Pontius Pilate.
It isn't first hand-- Josephus was relying on the stories that continued to be told about this man Jesus. However, Josephus certainly is not out to promote the cause of Jesus.
Of course, as with anything 2000 years old and of such import, there is major controversy around the document. But for my money it is as close to a 'document' as you are going to get.
The Gospels themselves are a written record of the existence of Jesus. However, they too present their own challenges-- number one being that they were written by those who believed in him anyway. Another difficulty is that they are not 'historical' in the sense that we think of history. But then, I think you are going to be hard pressed to find any written record from back then that would pass our 'test of authenticy' as a historical document. We just have a different concept of history than they did.
But stop and think for a moment: the guy came from a non-descript family in BC Israel. Why would we assume anyone would have taken an interests in him or what he was saying, and therefore felt the need to save documents about him until long after the fact? How much authentic archealogical or written proof do we have about some of the Roman emperors? I can answer that. Very little actually, esp when considering the role that the emperor played in the history of the world. So lets not dismiss Jesus just because he didn't have the bureauracracy (sp?) behind him.
Interesting topic though
[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: wrstlinfan ]
Wow, where have I been? I completely missed this thread until now; it's taken me 15 minutes just to skim through the heated and often challenging posts...
I think the contents of this post clearly demonstrate the age old problems with religion and God and Jesus and the whole shebang. Even a gay sports niche such as this can be a microcosm for the world. Why do religions need so desperately to be right? Why do any of us need to convince someone else of our beliefs? (I'm not implying that everyone here is doing that) Is it in order to justify how we feel? Is it so we can know some absolute order in a chaotic Universe? Don't religions often demonstate how intensely people need to try and control their existence?
I still read 'A Course in Miracles' sometimes since it is, for me, the least dogmatic piece of material relating to God, faith, and humankind. I remember feeling very passionate about it when I first discovered it in the late-eighties, and I wanted to "convert" everyone I knew. One day, I realized that I was doing what virtually all religions have done since the beginning of time: Scream out: "But, I'm right, I've found the way!" I stopped reading it for a long while and gradually started picking it up again. It challenges me greatly and also brings great peace to my turbulent ego.
Personally, I think both Heaven and Hell are real places right here on Earth...Everything that causes us pain relates to the body and its needs and wants and false securities...everything. While I have no idea what happens to our consciousness when we die, I know we don't take our bodies with us. Heaven and Hell are right here on earth; that's the reason to be good to our fellow man, to accept our differences, and to encourage a better understanding of one another's backgrounds and experiences...
And I definitely feel whatever God is coursing through my veins, especially when I'm loving or taking care of someone, learning something, or just having fun...I think God and Love are synonymous..
I think the contents of this post clearly demonstrate the age old problems with religion and God and Jesus and the whole shebang. Even a gay sports niche such as this can be a microcosm for the world. Why do religions need so desperately to be right? Why do any of us need to convince someone else of our beliefs? (I'm not implying that everyone here is doing that) Is it in order to justify how we feel? Is it so we can know some absolute order in a chaotic Universe? Don't religions often demonstate how intensely people need to try and control their existence?
I still read 'A Course in Miracles' sometimes since it is, for me, the least dogmatic piece of material relating to God, faith, and humankind. I remember feeling very passionate about it when I first discovered it in the late-eighties, and I wanted to "convert" everyone I knew. One day, I realized that I was doing what virtually all religions have done since the beginning of time: Scream out: "But, I'm right, I've found the way!" I stopped reading it for a long while and gradually started picking it up again. It challenges me greatly and also brings great peace to my turbulent ego.
Personally, I think both Heaven and Hell are real places right here on Earth...Everything that causes us pain relates to the body and its needs and wants and false securities...everything. While I have no idea what happens to our consciousness when we die, I know we don't take our bodies with us. Heaven and Hell are right here on earth; that's the reason to be good to our fellow man, to accept our differences, and to encourage a better understanding of one another's backgrounds and experiences...
And I definitely feel whatever God is coursing through my veins, especially when I'm loving or taking care of someone, learning something, or just having fun...I think God and Love are synonymous..
Ah, the Course in Miracles! I went to a few lectures because I was hoping to get in to the pants of the guy trying to Make Me See The Light, but he was a fortress and I quit going. An awful lot of verbiage from Marianne Williamson IMO for the simple message "God is love, love yourself and one another".
Yeah, she's quite a public speaker..saw several lectures of hers when I lived in LA - of course, there was a "Cult of Marianne" but almost everything turns into a cult in LA - ah, sorry..it's my birthplace and I can slam it if I want to...
Have you read the book, Jim? Maybe that fortress guy was me?
[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Bryan ]
Have you read the book, Jim? Maybe that fortress guy was me?
[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: Bryan ]
Jim,
For the past few days I've wondered why you resort to trite diatribes and why you're so bent on discrediting everything Christians believe. I think the diatribes show the fear behind your writings. You attempt so valiantly to disprove the existence of God, but you can't. That would create some fear. Also, you never agued my point that you are being disrespectful. which indicates fear. It appears that you fear what you obviously don't understand because if you understood, you'd realize that Christianity is based on faith. So, if you must continue to convince yourself that there is no God, that's your business as I would never deny you that right. Regardless, I for one would appreciate the discontinued use of aspersions to make your point. If you're resorting to aspersions, then your point must be tenuous at best.
For the past few days I've wondered why you resort to trite diatribes and why you're so bent on discrediting everything Christians believe. I think the diatribes show the fear behind your writings. You attempt so valiantly to disprove the existence of God, but you can't. That would create some fear. Also, you never agued my point that you are being disrespectful. which indicates fear. It appears that you fear what you obviously don't understand because if you understood, you'd realize that Christianity is based on faith. So, if you must continue to convince yourself that there is no God, that's your business as I would never deny you that right. Regardless, I for one would appreciate the discontinued use of aspersions to make your point. If you're resorting to aspersions, then your point must be tenuous at best.
I've posted on this thread once before I believe, but I just feel like sharing some more. I'll probably say the same thing I did before, but hey, It's on another page now right.
To those who constantly search for PROOF that Jesus lived, and to those who don't care if proof exists and believe regardless, I'm not sure where I fall in these catagories. I see a lot of bickering about proof and archeological evidence and such, but to me it these two areas don't play well togeather. I'm a college educated engineer, hence I am a VERY analytical person. I like cold hard facts and numbers and such. I live my life honestly (more and more each day) to the best of my ability. Now I have done a lot of soul searching about this debate and I have come to the conclusion that there must be a God. The reason I believe this is because, no matter how much I tell my self that there is no proof that christ exists, and that the bible is simply a good book that talks about reasonably good ways to live your life, and I try to not believe, there is still this pang in my heart that says, "God is real!". Why does this happen? Who knows! I can't explain it. I go to church in a formal setting, and I don't feel comfortable because of the dogma attached to organized religeon, in other words, I don't feel comfortable in a room with a bunch of people that believe that me loving a man is wrong. But, when I'm out in nature or basicly any time that I am happy and thriving I feel Gods presence in my core. I can't explain it. I think that religeon is something very personal, and that the way to understand religeon is to learn through other's experiences, not through preaching about how to act, but through telling about how you act and how that has influenced your own belief in God. I personally don't understand how the whole mission process works in this world, the conversion process seems like a farce to me. The Idea that someone will, in one afternoon, talk a person into believing in a concept that has taken me my whole life to feel seems unreal. But I think I better get off my soapbox and get back to work. Thanks for listening.
Oh ya, Go USA!
To those who constantly search for PROOF that Jesus lived, and to those who don't care if proof exists and believe regardless, I'm not sure where I fall in these catagories. I see a lot of bickering about proof and archeological evidence and such, but to me it these two areas don't play well togeather. I'm a college educated engineer, hence I am a VERY analytical person. I like cold hard facts and numbers and such. I live my life honestly (more and more each day) to the best of my ability. Now I have done a lot of soul searching about this debate and I have come to the conclusion that there must be a God. The reason I believe this is because, no matter how much I tell my self that there is no proof that christ exists, and that the bible is simply a good book that talks about reasonably good ways to live your life, and I try to not believe, there is still this pang in my heart that says, "God is real!". Why does this happen? Who knows! I can't explain it. I go to church in a formal setting, and I don't feel comfortable because of the dogma attached to organized religeon, in other words, I don't feel comfortable in a room with a bunch of people that believe that me loving a man is wrong. But, when I'm out in nature or basicly any time that I am happy and thriving I feel Gods presence in my core. I can't explain it. I think that religeon is something very personal, and that the way to understand religeon is to learn through other's experiences, not through preaching about how to act, but through telling about how you act and how that has influenced your own belief in God. I personally don't understand how the whole mission process works in this world, the conversion process seems like a farce to me. The Idea that someone will, in one afternoon, talk a person into believing in a concept that has taken me my whole life to feel seems unreal. But I think I better get off my soapbox and get back to work. Thanks for listening.
Oh ya, Go USA!
UGAMan, WHATEVER. You said you were done with the topic. Let. it. go. Dude, don't give up your day job to becoming a psychiatrist; your feeble, lame attempt to psychoanalyze me was laughable, to say the least.
Bryan, nah, Fortress Course In Miracles Guy was named Terrence. And yeah, I got a little of the "cult" vibe from those meetings; it was the early 90's, pre-AIDS cocktail and there were a lot of people with AIDS who were desperately searching for anything that might seem like a lifeline. At least they didn't pass out Kool-Aid!!
MSUBobcat, nice post.
Bryan, nah, Fortress Course In Miracles Guy was named Terrence. And yeah, I got a little of the "cult" vibe from those meetings; it was the early 90's, pre-AIDS cocktail and there were a lot of people with AIDS who were desperately searching for anything that might seem like a lifeline. At least they didn't pass out Kool-Aid!!
MSUBobcat, nice post.
MSU - I have to second something that you said and offer my two cents: I don't think God is something that can adequately be put into words - it's a feeling/awareness best known during silence - faith and trust are major avenues towards the creative force of the Universe - I think...
"The name of [the] infinite and inexhaustible depth and ground of our being is God. That depth is what the word God means. And if that word has not much meaning for you, translate it, and speak of the depths of your life, of the source of your being, of your ultimate concern, of what you take seriously without any reservation. Perhaps, in order to do so, you must forget everything traditional that you have learned about God, perhaps even that word itself." -- Paul Tillich (1886-1965)
I can't live with God as old white man on throne anymore, or God as the "superperson" running the universe (Bishop Spong's term). I've come to see "Jesus" as the ultimate manifestation of God in all of us, and in that sense, a manifestation of the divine. Religions are our tribal metaphors for the human longing to join with the divine.
Got it?
I can't live with God as old white man on throne anymore, or God as the "superperson" running the universe (Bishop Spong's term). I've come to see "Jesus" as the ultimate manifestation of God in all of us, and in that sense, a manifestation of the divine. Religions are our tribal metaphors for the human longing to join with the divine.
Got it?
Jim,
I'll let this silly war of castigation go. What I won't let go is that you claim that the Bible is full of inconsistencies, but you fail to name one. As you've confessed, you've read the Bible cover to cover many times; therefore, it should be easy for you to offer something as proof for your point.
I'm not trying to compromise your dignity as a person, and I'd appreciate the same courtesy. So, please, once again, I'll ask you to refrain from using caustic, bitter language and stick to the issues you addressed.
Looking forward to the debate...
I'll let this silly war of castigation go. What I won't let go is that you claim that the Bible is full of inconsistencies, but you fail to name one. As you've confessed, you've read the Bible cover to cover many times; therefore, it should be easy for you to offer something as proof for your point.
I'm not trying to compromise your dignity as a person, and I'd appreciate the same courtesy. So, please, once again, I'll ask you to refrain from using caustic, bitter language and stick to the issues you addressed.
Looking forward to the debate...
Psalm 23
QUOTE
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. 2 He maketh me to lie down in green [1] pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. 3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest [2] my head with oil; my cup runneth over. 6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.
Now if that isn't gay, I give up.
I know many times I've been on the receiving end of a rod and staff...oh, what comfort!!!
As far as religions go, I only need one chain. It is on my bicycle. :cool:
Thought I would post this here because it is such a fascinating thread that it deserves a boost.
Also it is related, for those of us that view religion, science and philosophy as mutually inclusive pursuits that ultimately cannot be separated.
There is a new book by Richard Florida called "Creative Class" reviewed here, which extends his arguement that the recent turn to the right is causing a brain drain in the US.
Now it seems he has broadened the theory to encompass population shifts around the world.
It would be interesting to know you guys' take on the review and how religion is being used in this.
Also it is related, for those of us that view religion, science and philosophy as mutually inclusive pursuits that ultimately cannot be separated.
There is a new book by Richard Florida called "Creative Class" reviewed here, which extends his arguement that the recent turn to the right is causing a brain drain in the US.
Now it seems he has broadened the theory to encompass population shifts around the world.
It would be interesting to know you guys' take on the review and how religion is being used in this.
An interesting thread. I grew up going to a Presbyterian church and it was a positive experience. I majored religion in college and graduate school and spent a large part of my life trying to figure out religious questions. Finally, I had an epiphany. None of it is real. I find religious belief as weird as the belief in ghosts, leprechauns, the Force, or astrology. As a matter of fact, I would classify the belief in any such things as religious belief. One definition of religion is the persistent belief in the unproved. Religions only interest me for the mischief they do. If religious belief were a private matter that never affected society at large, it would be no more than an eccentricity. Unfortunately, religion is a political force that stands between me and equality. Religion is the most commonly cited rationale behind homophobia. There is certainly no positive relationship between religious belief and moral behavior.
If you think of all the gods that were ever worshipped, very few people would claim to believe in the existence of all of them. Atheists are just more consistent.
If you think of all the gods that were ever worshipped, very few people would claim to believe in the existence of all of them. Atheists are just more consistent.
QUOTE
MSUBobcat:
there is still this pang in my heart that says, \"God is real!\". Why does this happen? Who knows! I can't explain it...I think that religeon is something very personal, and that the way to understand religeon is to learn through other's experiences, not through preaching about how to act, but through telling about how you act and how that has influenced your own belief in God.
I agree MSU - The way to show your beliefs is to show them what God's love has done in your life. Its much more effective than door to door preaching.
there is still this pang in my heart that says, \"God is real!\". Why does this happen? Who knows! I can't explain it...I think that religeon is something very personal, and that the way to understand religeon is to learn through other's experiences, not through preaching about how to act, but through telling about how you act and how that has influenced your own belief in God.
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