http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/15/opinion/.../15CONL.html?th

The typical white family enjoys a net worth that is more than eight times that of its black counterpart, according to the economist Edward Wolff. Even at equivalent income levels, gaps remain large. Among families earning less than $15,000 a year, the median African-American family has a net worth of zero, while the corresponding white family has $10,000 in equity. The typical white family earning $40,000 annually has a nest egg of around $80,000. Its black counterpart has about half that amount.

This equity inequity is partly the result of the head start whites enjoy in accumulating and passing on assets. Some economists estimate that up to 80 percent of lifetime wealth accumulation results from gifts from earlier generations, ranging from the down payment on a home to a bequest by a parent. If the government used such net-worth inequality as a basis, and then factored in measures like population size, it could address reparations by transferring about 13 percent of white household wealth to blacks. A two-adult black family would receive an average reparation of about $35,000.

This is a thread about reparations, isn't it? There are quite a few people of color in politics, and every day there are more and more.

Yet another confusing title bluebird. :confused:

But I can understand approaching a hot-button issue like reparations for African-Americans in a roundabout manner, especially in a multi-cultural forum.

I would personally trade away any reparations for strict enforcement of laws that truly eliminated discriminatory practices. Unfortunately most people only favor laws that eliminate discrimination against them or people like them.

By the way my grandfather eventually got about 40 acres and had several mules...The catch was that he had to buy both with money he and/or our ancestors earned, and about a century after slavery ended .

Seriously though, I think it is more important, and practical, to end discriminatory practices.

Equality in all things would follow more quickly than most people would like to think, and much sooner than racists would want.

Personally I think there should be reparations (I suppose I would receive some of them, though I'd refuse them and donate them to Black people who are far worse off in Latin America and the Caribbean), but the U.S. wouldn't be the only one to pay them.

France--"we stand upright in the world"--Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, and Britain, which all grew rich on the blood and backs of Black slaves, as well as every country in the Americas that fostered slavery (that is, all of them, including Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Cuba, DR, etc.), would have to fork up some dough. (A few like Haiti that helped to abolish it as soon as possible, not only on their own soil but elsewhere, might get a pass, as would countries that didn't exist during the slave era, like Belize.)

Corporations that are existed then and that are still around (BankBoston, Bank of New York, Hartford Courant, etc.) and that in any way profited from slavery or helped it along (by bankrolling the Confederacy, etc.) should also have to pay.

It won't happen, though. Especially in this country.

I am adamantly opposed to reparation....all of the progress we've made will shatter almost immediately. Whites will resent it so much, it will spark a race war! this could have horrible concequences.....but im not gonna write why i oppose it since i would fill the entire page. It's just an overall bad idea.

My opinion (slightly different):

*The article poses a $3500.00 amount. Immaterial. No amount will make it up. Some would gamble it, some would save it, some would use it for education, some would get it stolen, etc.

*A nationally understood, public document apologizing for slavery? Priceless.

*$3500.00 might not even change the national conversation on race.

*People of color would very much have to be prepared for all kinds of violence; because $0.35, without a satisfactory education for America on why this is some measure of reimbursement is like a sign on all of our backs, "Ready to be hung at the nearest tree".

*Some people would say then, "You've got your reparations check, now GET OVER IT."

- - - - -

I just can't agree with money alone. $3500, in today's economy, would barely purchase a computer (assumming that all checks would go to the purchase of one for anyone without a system) and then we would still have issues of equity in employment, denial of access to social networks, country clubs, and homeownership in the best neighborhoods, etc., etc., etc.

An ongoing series of town meetings on race would do better, and be cheaper.

- - - - -

On a related note: Then we could talk more freely about sexual orientation matters in this nation.

It INCLUDES text about reparations, but my point with this piece was more an indication of what some American families of color are currently suffering financially for those would ask, "How do we attract more Black/Latino voters?"

[ February 17, 2003, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

Slavery is a bad thing and should never have happened, but after all this time.. people want money? Why does everyone want a handout?

I came from a lower-middle class family, and was raised by a mother who made less than 30k a year and supported 2 kids... Guess what, made it to college, graduated, and got a job. My first job paid more than my mothers current salary. Do i have student loan debt? sure do, but it was worth it. Instead of people expecting a hand out from someone, why dont they instill values of hard work to their children. Telling them, you are economically challenged will do nothing but cause more harm.

When people quit feeling like victims and work hard to prove people wrong... well, that will be quite a day in the "i've been wronged, let's sue" place that we live.

OH BY THE WAY, by giving reps to eveyone, guess who just winds up paying for it? yeah, thats right all of us. Distrobution of wealth, that's colled a socialist society.

Handout?!?!?!? That is so 70's, PhillyFan!

When you read about the European Jews getting reparations to address the money stolen from their bank accounts, do you accuse them of pining for a "handout"?

I think I made it clear where I stand on the money, but whatever it is - it could NEVER be called a handout!

Geez! :mad:

BB, I must not be smart enough to deduce what you intended this thread to be about. Afterall, you posted a link to an article that is about reparations and not about attracting people of color to politics and/or voting. Further, the article does not mention the figure of $3500, it mentions $35,000! That amount, I hope you agree, would certainly change the national conversation on race. And not in a positive manner, in my opinion.

Hey Guys...About the question of reparations, I am caught between two minds. I do believe in the concept of hard work, but I know that slavery has a horrible legacy that we African-Americans are still paying for. One of major ways that African-Americans are paying is de-stabalization of families. The short version is that slave owners did not encourage formation of family units and wanted to men to impreganate as many of the female slaves as possible,that lead to the establishment of many female headed households. That was not always the case, but it was the general rule. I can look at my family and tell you how my mother and father were discouraged from being the best that they could be. I remember my mother telling me she was not encouraged in school and was told that she should try to find a good husband. My father had many emotional scars by the time he was adult. I hear from many people that African-Americans are looking for handouts. I don't think my parents were looking for handouts. They cleaned white people houses 7 days a week.They did this without compliant and worked hard. The did what ever they could do to make life good for me and my brother and sisters. They are my heros. I can also tell you that the educational system did not support me to be the best I could be. I was placed on the vocational tract in school and was told that I should try to find work as tradesman. I managed to get a post-graduate degree based on sheer will and made full use of the opportunities given to me. It is not my intention to play victim here, but there are still inequities in America. I am not quite sure how we should proceed, but a formal apology sent to all African-Americans might be a good cleansing step.

So how is it that you can go through a story of how you worked you way through everything and admitted that you broke the cycle.... Do you not think it would be better served to encourage others to do the same thing you did rather than looking for ways to get them the easy fix of giving out money.

So tell me if anyone is handed 3,500... better yet the 35,000... honestly, how much of that money is spent on wasteful things? better yet, if that money is not used to better themselves... what they need more money?... as you say, it was what was encouraged of them?

Money does not solved problems, education solves problems.

This excerpt is the ONLY reason I used the article.

"The typical white family enjoys a net worth that is more than eight times that of its black counterpart, according to the economist Edward Wolff. Even at equivalent income levels, gaps remain large. Among families earning less than $15,000 a year, the median African-American family has a net worth of zero, while the corresponding white family has $10,000 in equity. The typical white family earning $40,000 annually has a nest egg of around $80,000. Its black counterpart has about half that amount."

- - - - -

For the very last time: this is not a thread about reparations. I won't say it again.

If there is someone out there who is interested in this possible reality in trying to attract voters and trying to recruit Americans for politics, and wants to comment here, please - be my guest.

It's sad (read: unnescessary, in my opinion) that you feel that you have to preface your post with a sentiment like this.

First of all, PhillyFan is doing one of two things in this post:

*He's pretending that he can't read English and expects others to fall for it; or,

*He employs the kind of mentality (to his myopia's advantage) that berates a rape victim claiming, "You shouldn't have been clothed in an attractive manner that evening. Your beauty/handsomeness is the reason your were violated and brutally assaulted."

Given the complexity of this topic, I have allowed for some trepidation and emotional caution, which is understandable - nevertheless, we are all literate adults on this board (at least, I am) for the purpose of discussing topics that we in the community feel are worth posting.

That's all the diplomacy I can stand today. :mad:

Friendly literates wanted.

[ February 18, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

Even though the thread is not about reparations, here's an interesting scholarly view, by John David Smith of North Carolina State University, on the fallacy of the "Forty Acres and a Mule" myth, and the far harsher truth of the federal or any of the former-Confederate state governments' failures to do the right thing.

A small quote from the article:

"What does this history teach us? Yes, the historical record disproves assertions that the federal government reneged on promises to grant the freedpeople "forty acres and a mule." But the fact that the government never made such a promise in the first place tells us something about how black people were treated in 19th-century America. Moreover, it is important to remember that the freedpeople desperately wanted land, believed that they had been deceived, and felt betrayed. The legacy of that sense of betrayal lingers on. After 138 years, the stubborn myth of "forty acres and a mule" remains a political football and a sober reminder of the ex-slaves' broken hopes and shattered dreams."

#1 that was an atricle on reps, and how you pulled it into politics or getting folks into politics.

if you can't take a lil heat on your opinion... well man, that bites....

Only a matter of opinion is all that it is. You should not get worked up over opinions that do not agree with yours.

I love this kind of discussion, and I do feel that everyone here is rational in their thoughts and feelings.It is my hope that we don't let this get to be about proving that we are right. In our view of the world we are all right. It is important to note that we do come from different places. I can only respond from my view of the world. So Philly Fan, I want to discuss a couple of assumptions that you made. The first assumption is that I am not doing anything to encourage people to have a larger vision of themselves. I choose my profession ( social worker) and my employment to help people see more of the world. I cannot say that succeed all the time, but it is my overall intention. I feel I am blessed as I have passion for my work and it is an honor and a priveledge to work with my clients to help realize something more out of life. The second assumption is how do you know that if reparations were given that it would be spent on needless things? Personally, I have a enough middle class trappings and $3,500 would not help me all that much.
To the orginator of the this discussion, I apologize for my discourse. I am involved in the political process as I am having a understanding how policy affects the society in which we all live.

Oh no, i was not saying that all the money would be wasted, I was asking what would happen in the case that it would. Some would save the money, some would buy a house... and a portion would merely waste it away.

My point is that education is the key, not handing out money. I hate when people think they are "owed" something by society.

Again, maybe it's my stupidity or lack of literacy, but what does income or the possession of a nest egg have to do with participation in voting and/or politics? Do you really think increasing a family's nest egg will make them more likely to vote? Granted, someone with a very LARGE nest egg might be more likely to run for office, but in the income ranges this article discusses, I don't think someone with $80,000 in savings or a 401(k) is any more likely to run than someone with "half that amount."

[ February 21, 2003, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

I think the birdie is mad....

Mad angry or mad nuts?

How did you notice me from MAD TV?

I was on a confidential assignment there only for 3 years...

Ooooh...perceptive, and good with faces wink !

No, I don't.

However, there are many poor American voters who show up every year - and of late, they are willing to show up, realizing that they may be illegally detained by police officers, or discouraged by signs telling them that they are "not eligible" to vote if their rent or utility bills are not current.

- - - - -

What I'm getting at here is, how will politicians who say they are interested in attracting Black/Latino voters actually do it (e.g., is there some platform being created/developed, and what is it?)?

Please avoid double-posting. Combine your comments into a single post. Thank you - Outsports moderator

Hey Birdie! I think that group you are talking about is the N double A CP.... heard of it?

HEY, what about the poor white folks who aint caught up on their bills?

*Please don't call me "Birdie", especially when your attitude is funky. I don't like that variation.

*What does the NAACP have to do what I posted? :confused: I wasn't thinking of them.

*Yeah, what about the poor white folks who ain't caught up on their bills? Can you find some articles where, in their districts(say, in Appalachia), they were subjected to those illegal signs at the polls? I didn't restrict the poverty sentiment to race (or sexual orientation eek! wink ).

[ February 20, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

I have been reading this thread with great interest and to be honest, I haven't replied dur to the state in which I live. However, I've got to make a few thoughts here. First, on reparations, they are absolutely ridiculous. My family wasn't even in the United States during the civil war. I bet if it could be traced, 80% of Americans would be in that same category. Therefore, how do you ask 80% of America to support reparations for travesties that occurred before their families arrived?

Bluebird, there are places where poor whites were restricted in their ability to place votes. The 1901 Alabama Constitution which is still in place, but not for long hopefully, was intent on keeping poor whites down and blacks in "their" place. They had requirements concerning reading abilities, owning property, etc. to insure that they would not be able to vote and keep those in power, in power. By the way, it wasn't Southerners who created the constitution, it was large corporations such as US Steel who wanted a largely uneducated, powerless work force to work in their mills.

I am not doubting for one second that blacks have had a much harder time in getting equal treatment than poor whites. That fact is indisputable and unfortunately, in some areas, it still goes on. However, it is interesting to note that the most recent questionable polling issues in Birmingham have been more black on black than white on black. It seems that the same thought processes of grabbing power and keeping weren't limited to Whites. There in lies the problem with getting minorities to vote. I hate to say it, but when a white person goes and votes in his/her district (and I'm making a big assumption that a white person will live in a predominately white district), you feel pretty confident that your vote is straight up. I don't know if that same feeling is felt by African-Americans when they place their vote.

I think what can be done about it is for young African-Americans, such as yourself, to not put up with the African-American establishment in politics. You are the second-generation of the civil rights movement. You no longer have to fight for the basic rights that those in the original movement fought for. What you do have to fight for is accountability from YOUR elected officials.

Bluebird. I think that PhillyFan has a point and you attacked him unjustly. There should be no reparations for Jews, Blacks, Mexicans,or whatever color you are.

I lived in Los Angeles for a few years and it is ridiculous when you look at all the Black and Mexican single mothers who have 3 or 4 babies, and expect welfare and handouts. Haven't these girls heard of birth control?It seems as if a lot of sex is going on, but very little responsibility.

And what infuriates me even more is when white citizens like myself complain about the issue, we are told that we are "racists". True, I object to my tax dollars going to "welfare mothers", but that does not make me a racist. That makes me a concerned citizen. :mad:

I think i love boston sports, but despise celtics.... opps did i spell that right?

I don't want to get inflammatory here, but if this sentiment isn't at all racist, why did you only point out your disgust for "Black and Mexican single mothers"? Why not just single mothers in general, regardless of race? Or anyone at all on welfare who depends on "handouts"?

Just so you know, the MAJORITY of people on WELFARE have been whites. This was the case in 1970, in 1980, in 1990, and in 2000, despite the crap the media put out. In some states, like Wyoming, Montana, Vermont, etc., nearly 90% of the recipients were and are whites. Do you as a "white" citizen complain about that?

Actually, your 80% is wrong. Quite a few white Americans can trace at least one ancestor back to the Civil War era, when slavery was in effect, and at least 60-70% of whites, I would estimate, could trace at least one ancestor back to the Jim Crow era, when legalized segregation--American Apartheid--against Blacks was in effect. It persisted especially in the South, where the rates of immigration from were lower than in the northeast, midwest, and west.

[ February 21, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

Fantomas, what are you considering "white"? My Great Grandfather was not considered "white" when he got off the ship from Italy. By your comments, I am going to assume that by "white" you mean people primarily from England and France of Anglo-Saxon or Norman heritage.

Thanks for judging my answer by telling me that I'm 80% wrong. I'll lay money that most "caucasian" americans cannot trace a family member back to the Civil War. Now, the Jim Crow-era? Come on Fantomas, now it's not hard for someone to trace their history in this country back that far.

The key to this whole issue is responsibility. The root word responsible is defined as:

1. Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.
2. Involving personal accountability or ability to act without guidance or superior authority: a responsible position within the firm.
Being a source or cause.
3. Able to make moral or rational decisions on one's own and therefore answerable for one's behavior.
4. Able to be trusted or depended upon; reliable.
5. Based on or characterized by good judgment or sound thinking: responsible journalism.
Having the means to pay debts or fulfill obligations.
6. Required to render account; answerable: The cabinet is responsible to the parliament.

The African-American race is plagued with black on black crime, an inordinate percentage of young black men incarcerated, single parent households, infant mortality and many others. Who is responsible for this? Remember, responsibility is personal and not transferrable to others.

It is the Responsibility of African-Americans to improve the status of the African-American race in America. More responsibility and accountability must be demanded of your elected officials. Birmingham has been run by black mayors since 1979. It is now the laughing stock of all major cities in the South. The former Mayor Richard Arrington has become extremely wealthy along with his right-man attorney Donald Watkins (does that name ring a bell with you Twins fans? it should, he tried to buy the team). These facts have been brought up to the voters in Birmingham time after time after time; however, nothing is ever done and they keep getting re-elected. Why? Is it fair that a select few in power have been able to break the cycle while riding the backs of those they are supposedly serving? Hell no it isn't fair and you can't accept this behavior.

Bluebird, you seem like an extremely intelligent young man. Are you planning on running for office? Have you ever volunteered for a political campaign. What have YOU done to increase the number of minorities voting? Man, you have the abilities and the knowledge, go out and make things happen.

[ February 20, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]

Didnt boston dude say that he lived in LA and that was the example he pulled? I live in PHX and with the large hispanic population here, i would guess most welfare folks are hispanic(largest %). If i lived in mostly white Wyoming, they'd be white.. give the guy a break...

If everyone would just get over the "oh poor me" philosophy and actually work for something....

Why would people have a kid that they are unable to support? bad bad parenting...

As I read through the post, I must applaud each and every one of you for engaging in such a mature, intelligent, and open discussion about an issue that can get pretty emotionally charged. Let's keep this discussion going and just agree to disagree. I mean we all come from different experiences which obviously shape our perspectives on various issues.

You guys ROCK!!!!!

[ February 20, 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: HOT4JOCKS ]

Transferring wealth is not the problem. Nor is the lack of a cultural/intellectual capacity to acquire or increase wealth the problem.

The prolem is that there are a gazillion ways for individuals to inhibit the development of other individuals who they do not like because they are part of a group that they do not like - FOR WHATEVER REASON.

That dislike may manifest itself in the choice of who you will employ, do business with, live next to, associate with and YES even have a personal relationship with (no I don't necessarily mean sexual though that comes into play in the others even when it should not).

We keep dodging the issue by cloaking our prejudices as "freedoms". One mans freedom can be another mans undoing. We limit freedom when it harms other people all the time. We will have to decide when and where the freedom of association is a right to be protected and when it is a tool for harming someone we don't like because of an arbitrary trait.

The first is sacrosanct, the second should be illegal.

HUH? I cant use big words like that dude... my eyes are about to bug out and i think need a beer now.... nice...

What point, exactly is it that he made, and in which post was it written? :confused: :confused:

I don't remember that he had made a point - and even if he had, and it countered mine, I wouldn't have been angry.

What I found offensive, and will not tolerate is his nasty tone and perjorative attitude toward me and what I have to say.

Back to you.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In addition, BostonSportz, since we're on race-related interactions and issues:

PhillyFan PERSISTS in calling me, \"Birdie\" - in a context that is, in my mind, clearly offensive and condescending.

Do you have any comment regarding that, as an Outsports member? :confused: :confused:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Exactly, fantomas.

It's just a matter of (convenient?) mis-education and/or misunderstanding that many Americans still think that welfare is a \"Black thing\", when actually - like you say - in many states, it's a \"White thing\".

That INCLUDES, by the way, the welfare recipients (Black AND White) who jerk the system illegally for every check they can get (i.e., with multiple births, falsehoods, multiple addresses, etc.).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Why does my potential for being an intelligent young man and a career in politics occur in the same thought to you?
:confused: :confused:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Right - Fantomas and I know about the plight of Italian- and Irish-Americans, and I have written about Italian-Americans specifically in an effort to find out more about the Sopranos and its U.S. acceptance (without a lot of success, BTW; but that's a different thread).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Edited to consolidate sequential posts - Outsports moderator]

[ February 25, 2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: m1 ]

Bluebird, I think you have allowed this thread to get to your heart rather than your head.

You think we should elect dumbasses?

Geez, guy, I'm trying to give you a genuine compliment and you attack back.

Once again, I'm going to throw it back at you. What are YOU doing to change the situation?

No, I don't.

On the "compliment": the reason I questioned it was because you leveraged my "seeming" (red flag) intelligence, and then threw me into politics.

I am not interested in politics as a way to change the world, and actually don't put politics at the top of my "Ways to Change the World" list.

- - - - -

Apology: I had not finished all my responses (took a break) and that's why I didn't address what I would do.

Coming up.

- - - - -

OK, I'm brilliant. I've heard it before, and I appreciate it coming from you, Aubie in Bham.

I just hope, now that you think I'm brilliant - that you like brilliant people!

I love ya Bluebird

Relax, and get a drink of water if you have to, becuase you probably haven't heard this before:

The above type of sentiment is one of the most racist statements people of color hear throughout their lives.

*First of all, you should read all my threads on Italian-Americans and the Sopranos.

*When the Irish and Italians encountered, "No Italians not Irish Need Apply" signs when looking for work, was that THEIR responsibility?

- - - - -

Of course, we all have responsibility in our lives for what we do and the consequences of our actions.

I, for one, am doing just that here by, instead of stewing about how there might be racism in the gay community, I am speaking frankly about race issues, as well as ALL topics that interest me.

IT IS NOT RESPONSIBLE to let others tell you what you SHOULD be able to accomplish and what you shouldn't.

We all need to continue (myself included) to read about each other's history to get a better feel for what we have all gone through.

- - - - -

You seem like you are in the throes of pondering politics in a Black-run city. Believe me, it can be a culture shock.

But that's all it is - a culture shock.

I speak enough Spanish to make do in Mexico City. If I chose to live there - how smart would it be to question how they run the city, when the Mexicans THEMSELVES are complaining?

Yeah, I could, as you say, "get in politics". But then, I'd be competing with Mexicans who know the city much better. I am not making fun, but there A LOT of Americans of color who should be in politics and who WANT to be in politics.

I am not one of them.

- - - - -

On Watkins: I don't know of him, but I don't need to to respond here.

The "laughing-stock" problem you mention is the identical to how many people feel about GWBush. I could ask you, "How is it that, if the Republicans have so much money and power, and truly want to unify America, they can stand for a President whose intelligence quotient and motives are an embarrassment to our country?"

I could paint this one up, trim and dress it, and throw it you.

My Alabama question for you is: Why do you care about what Watkins does or doesn't do? How does it affect your life/livelihood?

- - - - -

On this thread "getting to my heart": No...absolutely not.

[ February 21, 2003, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

In addressing the culture-shock of a black-run city:

I could live in any city in the Birmingham metro area. I would be closer to my job, closer to the places I most frequent, better school system, better city services, etc. My street if very diverse; we have 4 gay couples and one gay single chinese doctor, 4 Jewish families, One African-American family and 5 Caucausian families. I think we have just about covered the gammit there. I love living where I live and don't want to move. The reason I don't is because I care deeply for the City of Birmingham. Without a strong core city, the Metropolitan area will surely suffer. I think I read recently where there are now things called Suburbopolisis or something where the suburbs have eclipsed the named city in population and are now wielding all of the power. Now, let's talk about what could happen in that situation. These are typically all white and they would be in the driver seat. Do you think that minorities in the named city would get any benefit from this scenario?

I cannot stand to see people take advantage of their political office for personal gain and help only those that support them. Watkins (who lives in Alabama) was just an ordinary attorney until he hit the jackpot in teaming up with Richard Arrington, Jr. They raped the city. Watkins received millions and millions of dollars representing the city of Birmingham and Mayor Arrington is various lawsuits. He spent millions on him, when we could have settled lawsuits for a few hundred thousand. And, now, Watkins is worth a BILLION dollars? All of this while the school kids of Birmingham are subjected to subpar schools, schools in which they don't feel safe and worse, yet, homes in which they don't feel safe.

Bluebird, in order for people to dream, they have to have hope. That's why minorities aren't voting. They see no hope. The people they elect do nothing for them while profiting (and I know this isn't just a black phenomena, MANY white politicians have become very wealthy through political office).

You are absolutely right, Aubie in Bham. This is happening in all over the country, and I wonder to what extent it was happening in D.C. when I was there (under Barry - with the new mayor, it may be a different story).

I haven't heard about Denver, but my guess is that Denver is better off than most Black-run cities.

You really have to get into the runnings of a city and its suburbs to truly know what the inequities are, but I do think that, as long as we have Black mayors who line their pockets with no regard for what a mayor's job is, well...

[ February 21, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

First of all, "African-American" is not a RACE, it's an ethnicity. There is a difference. Many African-Americans are racially MIXED anyway. I know that may be hard for you to deal with it, but it's the truth. There are Blacks (the racial category, as in Negroid) who are Haitian-American, Jamaican, Guyanese, Brazilian, Dominican, Afro-Canadian, Cuban, Puerto-Rican, you name. (In fact most of these people, like most Blacks in the Americas, are racially mixed.) So please get your terms right.

Second of all, while racial formation among whites is an ongoing process, and while some southern Italians were NOT considered "white" in some parts of the country when they first immigrated in the late 1800s and early 1900s--especially in the northeast and Louisiana, in other places, like California, which drew a large Italian population in the San Francisco Bay area, they were considered whites. Irish were treated badly in Boston and New York, yet were able to meld much more easily in Savannah, for example, and parts of the west. By "white" I mean the primary European ethnic groups in this country that arrived here between 1619 and the 1960s, when the immigration laws changed. Not just Anglo-Normans (and not all French would be Norman), but also the Scots and Irish, the Swiss (in North Carolina and Pennsylvania since the late 1600s), the Sephardic Jews (in Rhode Island since the late 1600s), the Ashkenazy Jews from the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the various German states (settled throughout the South since the 1700s), the Germans (in Pennsylvania since the 1700s), Scandinavians (who arrived late in the 19th century), and so on. A pretty large group, actually. I dare you to tell ANY "Italian" person nowadays she or he isn't white. (The issue of why white people hold onto racial categorization is an interesting topic; if we are supposed to be moving towards colorblindness, then why don't whites do something really remarkable like cast off "whiteness"?)

Furthermore, white people have benefited from racial laws and white skin privilege whether or not they agreed with them. So your grandfather, whether or not he considered himself white, was always at an advantage when going up for a job against a Black person. That continues to this day, despite all the conservative braying about affirmative action, etc. I constantly hear how Blacks get all these preferences for university teaching jobs, blah blah blah, but I can tell you, having taught on six different faculties at highly distinguished universities in the south, northeast and midwest, that the VAST MAJORITY of my colleagues are white males and white females. Not Asians, not Latinos, and definitely not Blacks. The contortions that my white colleagues come up with to excuse anything for other white people never ceases to astonish me.

As for Black mayors, let's look at white mayors. The majority of mayors in U.S. history have been white, and many of them stuffed their pockets and promoted their own ethnic groups at the expense of everyone else. A number of them left their cities in a disastrous state. The issue of personal responsibility wasn't a racial one, it was a political one. Get the bum out of there, and put in someone who can do the job. Some Black mayors, like Wellington Webb, have done a great job. Some White mayors, like Rudolph Giuliani (who hated Black people), did a great job. It's not a racial issue, it's a political one.

I'm sorry to hear about the awful state of Birmingham, but Atlanta, which is also has had Black mayors, is not in the same sorry situation. It is the economic engine of the southeast. Charlotte also has had Black mayors, as has Charleston, New Orleans, Memphis, and Little Rock. None of them are as bad off as the Birmingham you describe, so it is not simply an issue of having an African-American mayor. Jersey City, where I have lived, has had mostly white mayors who have robbed it blind, as has Providence, RI, whose charming but utterly crooked WHITE mayor, Buddy Cianci, was finally sent to jail. The STATE of Illinois (which is what, the sixth or seventh largest in the United States?) is embroiled in political trials related to all kinds of political shenanigans and criminal activity led by a white Republican governor, George Ryan, and his cronies. So it is hardly an issue of race. You have got to get beyond the myopia and look at the larger issue.

There are over 37.7 million people who have self-identified as having some African ancestry in this country. This large group of people is not "plagued" by Black-on-Black crime, etc. as you describe it. The wedlock birthrate is rising for ALL groups in the U.S. These are societal issues. I do believe that personal responsibility is important, but I also believe you cannot fix on one race and make outrageous pronouncements.

[ February 21, 2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

Actually, in presidential elections, minorities ARE voting. The last election (2000) bears this out. Even I, however, was discouraged by the illegal outcome; I mean, if I vote, and the Supreme Court is going to appoint the President rather than allow the political process to unfold as it is written in both state and federal constitutional law, that turns people off. It certainly pissed me off. But again, minorities do vote. The two Democratic Senators in New Jersey were elected to a great degree because of the coalition of Black-Latino-and-moderate-to-liberal White voters in the state.

Clinton received a large percentage of Asian and Latino votes in his 1996 election, which, along with Black votes, gave him the plurality, since he struck out with White male voters. In the last election--2002--I think there were many reasons why some minorities didn't vote, but I think there'll definitely be a surge in 2004, particularly if W. continues to drag this country into the abyss. And W. ain't a minority...where's HIS personal responsibility?

[ February 21, 2003, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Tarkus ]

I just shortened your name up to birdie, isnt that a show of affection?

Super paragraph.

And yes, it's correct, absolutely, that although the Northeast was racist toward Italian- and Irish-Americans specifically, there were fewer problems in other parts of the country.

- - - - -

Fantomas, I am taking issue with the \"whiteness\" of Italian-Americans. I think one has to figure in the \"allegiance to WASP values and behaviors\". There are Americans of Italian descent who don't fit the \"mold\", and consequently, are not privy to the perks that their more Anglo and Anglicized people enjoy.

Given that you would take it on a case-by-case basis, it's pretty easy to see where a particular Italian-American falls.

For instance, in the film Primary Colors, Billy Bob Thornton's character claims to be \"Blacker\" than the President's assistant, citing that a Harvard education made him so \"White\" that he was no longer as \"Black\" as the young man that left for college. There is some truth to that (racial profiling, job discrimination, and being prey in malls aside ).

- - - - -

The reason for this white skin preference was infused into the laws and mores of 17th-century America and the enjoyments therefrom have been nurtured by people (in power) of white (regardless of nationality) skin ever since, whether or not \"certain whites\" agreed or not.

**Just recently, there was a bust of an office building in Virginia where it had been discovered that Blacks were forbidden to enter. No Black person, of any qualifications, was allowed entry into the building. White human resources staff resisted vehemently, and were fired. Other white staff risked their careers to alert undecover journalists to get the story. The (multi-racial) team blew the top off of the story, but my point is that in the 1990's this was attempted, becuase management there THOUGHT IT COULD BE ACCOMPLISHED, ALTHOUGH THEY KNEW IT WAS ILLEGAL.

These are events and realities that Americans of color are AFFECTED BY in TODAY'S society. Given that there are many, many people of all races who stand with us in protest, it is people of color that, for the most part that still suffer discrimination based on African ancestry.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Not that my father and I are two peas in a pod that chatter like chipmunks, but he wouldn't even discuss this with me at length - and, he is actually retiring in Florida (strong stomach!).

He was like: surprising event...but hey - it's Florida, remember?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Edited to combine sequential posts - Outsports moderator]

[ February 25, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: m1 ]

Here is an excellent article by a white writer, Tim Wise, on white privilege. One point you make, Bluebird, that I agree with is this: what do whites who refuse this state of affairs do? Some, like Noel Ignatiev, have founded organizations like "Race Traitor," which go completely off the deep end, I think. But is there a way to work against this status quo without going wacko?

Tim Wise's Article, \"Whites Swim in Racial Preferences\"

[ February 21, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Arigato gozaimasu, fantomas.

While the entire article is potent and rich, I especially like the last two paragraphs:

"The ability to believe that being black would have made no difference (other than a beneficial one when it came time for college), and that being white has made no positive difference, is rooted in privilege itself: the privilege that allows one to not have to think about race on a daily basis; to not have one's intelligence questioned by best-selling books; to not have to worry about being viewed as a "out of place" when driving, shopping, buying a home, or for that matter, attending the University of Michigan.


So long as those privileges remain firmly in place and the preferential treatment that flows from those privileges continues to work to the benefit of whites, all talk of ending affirmative action is not only premature but a slap in the face to those who have fought, and died, for equal opportunity."

- - - - -

And one reason why it hurts and angers me when I get flack about these lines of American reasonings is that str8 America operates in a practically identical fashion.

How can a str8 person even fantasize whtat it would be like to have 98% gay coupling in advertising, for instance? And they say WE'RE recruiting THEM :mad: :mad: ! Outrageous!

The author of this article reminds me a str8 people who fight tirelessly for LGBT rights as HUMAN rights: not because he's so clever and brave; but because he is willing to live (to the best of his ability) for what he believes is the truth.

Honorable.