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MIB
From a press conference today, Durbin's confession:

QUOTE

QUESTION: I don't think I've heard any Democrats say that, though this program, in your view appears to be unconstitutional, maybe unlawful, why not say, Halt it now, and come to Congress and ask for the changes, but halt it now? I've not heard any Democrat say: Stop the program.

DURBIN: Well, I have to say, candidly, there are very few members of Congress who know exactly what this program's all about. Other than press descriptions, we don't honestly know what is being done in the name of this program.
Bill W
Given the many sources who say these taps have turned up thousands of dead ends, it's pretty safe to say that the Unelected Dictator's regime is engaging in a helluva lot more than "terrorist surveillance."

The Power-Madness of King George (Slate)

QUOTE
According to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, the putative author of the [Justice Dept] white paper, the president's powers as commander in chief make him the \"sole organ for the Nation in foreign affairs.\" This status, which derives from Article II of the Constitution, brings with it the authority to conduct warrant-less surveillance for the purpose of disrupting possible terrorist attacks on the United States.

That power already sounds boundless, but according to Gonzales, this sole organ has garnered even more authority under the congressional authorization for the use of military force, passed in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks. This resolution is invariably referred to by the ungainly acronym AUMF—-the sound, perhaps, of civil liberties being exhaled by a democracy. In the language of the white paper, the potent formula of Article II plus AUMF \"places the president at the zenith of his powers,\" giving him \"all that he possesses in his own right plus all that Congress can delegate.\"

This somewhat daffy monarchical undertone accompanies legal reasoning that recalls Alice's conversation with the March Hare. \"AUMF\" is understood by the Justice Department to expressly authorize warrant-less surveillance even though the resolution that Congress passed neither envisioned nor implied anything of the kind. The president's insistence that he alone can divine the hidden meaning of legislation is of a piece with his recently noticed practice of appending \"signing statements\" to bills—-as in, \"by signing this anti-torture bill into law, I pronounce it to signify that it has no power over me.\" Similarly, in his white paper, Bush as much as declares: \"I determine what my words mean and I alone determine what yours mean, too.\"
millerbeach
Sorry, MIB. You proved your lack of intelligence and power when you started using gutter language. You see, intelligent folks don't have to use foul language every time they lose an arguement. That convinced me of the fact that you do not have a lot of intelligence, nor do you have any power. Thanks for playing! Try again.
MIB
This is from the Washington Post's report this morning about yesterday's release of a tape Qaeda No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, "taunting" President Bush over our recent failure to vaporize him:
QUOTE

M.J. Gohel, a terrorism analyst and chief executive of the Asia-Pacific Foundation in London, said it appeared that Zawahiri and bin Laden had coordinated their recent messages. He said it was noteworthy that al Qaeda's leaders had fashioned an effective system of communication that Western intelligence agencies have been unable to penetrate.


Meanwhile, here in Oz, the U.S. Senate has decided to conduct a hearing Monday to grill high government officials about whether they have violated the law by trying to penetrate al Qaeda's communications. During wartime. While al Qaeda is trying to blow up American cities and kill American civilians.

How hard must Zawahiri be laughing?
MIB
QUOTE
millerbeach:
Sorry, MIB.
Apology accepted, but remember--in the battle of wits, you are unarmed.
MIB
Democrats are both outraged by President Bush's National Security Agency surveillance program and content to see it continue. They are at this incoherent pass because their reflexive hostility to the program is tempered by the dawning suspicion that they might be on the wrong side politically of yet another national-security issue--thus, the NSA Straddle.

Asked on ABC's This Week to respond to a Karl Rove speech saying that Democrats disagree with President Bush that al Qaeda members should be monitored when they call somebody in America, Sen. John Kerry declared, "We don't disagree with him at all." But he went on to blast the NSA program as illegal. Why not, therefore, cut off funding for it? "That's premature," Kerry insisted.

Democrats are the first party ever to talk of impeaching a president for creating a program they themselves seem to support. It's as if they had denounced Watergate, but stipulated that there was nothing wrong in principle with breaking into the office of Daniel Ellsberg's psychologist. "We're prepared to eavesdrop wherever and whenever necessary," said Kerry, sounding ready to don earphones himself. Howard Dean agrees: "I support spying on al Qaeda, and I think every Democrat in America thinks we ought to attack al Qaeda, and spy on them."

Of course, Democrats say such spying has to be legal. Who disagrees with that? The wiretapping programs in the Nixon, Kennedy, and Johnson administrations that were so famously abused were extremely closely held. The Bush administration kept the NSA program secret, to be sure, but it was routinely reviewed by the top career lawyers at the NSA and the Department of Justice, who have no truck with lawbreaking.

The Democrats' confusion extends to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which they argue the administration is violating. On the one hand, they praise the act as a bulwark of liberty. On the other, they suggest that warrants from the FISA court are an easily obtained fig leaf. Howard Dean notes incredulously that the administration isn't operating the NSA program under the auspices of FISA, when for more than 25 years the FISA court has approved 19,000 warrant requests and turned down only five.

Democrats want to portray the FISA regime as readily stretched to encompass the spying program in order to accommodate their NSA Straddle. It allows them to denounce the program as flagrantly illegal, while supporting the program in theory, because with a little cover from FISA, it would be perfectly legal. Would that it were so easy. If the NSA program is compatible with FISA, surely the administration would avail itself of that law. It hasn't been reticent about obtaining FISA warrants, the number of which has jumped since Sept. 11.

To obtain such a warrant requires a showing of probable cause that the person to be monitored in the U.S. is a member of a terrorist group. There are two reasons for the administration not to go this route with the NSA program. One is speed. It takes time to assemble the warrant application and get the official sign-offs. The other is that the evidence for a showing of probable cause might not exist. If a member of al Qaeda calls someone, it doesn't necessarily make him a terrorist. The administration is monitoring the call anyway, and if evidence shows up to support a finding of probable cause, presumably then it will get a FISA warrant on the call's recipient.

The NSA program exists outside of FISA, but it needn't be in violation of it, if the target of the surveillance is a person outside the U.S. and the surveillance itself is taking place overseas. But there is no doubt that it is an aggressive program, and as the debate over it ripens, a key question will likely be whether it is acceptable to monitor calls to people in the U.S. we have no reason to believe are terrorists. Expect the Democrats' answer to be--another straddle.
HotlantaTarheel
to plagiarize (verb):
to steal and pass off the ideas or words of another as one's own; to use another's production without crediting the source.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=plagiarize
MIB
I'm still trying to find the person who said words were his own when they weren't.
swiminbuff
A class action lawsuit was filed today against AT & T, for giving the NSA access to customer phone and email records and violating their privacy rights.
millerbeach
MIB...look in the mirror. That should answer and end your search. You do have a mirror, don't you?
MIB
Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all? Why, it's MIB! ohmy.gif
millerbeach
Earth to MIB...not only is your mirror a liar, it's broken! Time to head to Wal-Mart and buy a new one.
ITJock
QUOTE
MIB:
Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all? Why, it's MIB! ohmy.gif
MIB,

You DO KNOW what they call people who talk to their mirrors all the time don't you?

Just remember what they also do to people who think their mirrors talk back. tongue.gif

On another note:

Senate Panel Rebuffed on Documents on U.S. Spying

"By ERIC LICHTBLAU
Published: February 2, 2006

WASHINGTON, Feb. 1 — The Bush administration is rebuffing requests from members of the Senate Judiciary Committee for its classified legal opinions on President Bush's domestic spying program, setting up a confrontation in advance of a hearing scheduled for next week, administration and Congressional officials said Wednesday.

The Justice Department is balking at the request so far, administration officials said, arguing that the legal opinions would add little to the public debate because the administration has already laid out its legal defense at length in several public settings.

But the legality of the program is known to have produced serious concerns within the Justice Department in 2004, at a time when one of the legal opinions was drafted. Democrats say they want to review the internal opinions to assess how legal thinking on the program evolved and whether lawyers in the department saw any concrete limits to the president's powers in fighting terrorism.

With the committee scheduled to hold the first public hearing on the eavesdropping program on Monday, the Justice Department's stance could provoke another clash between Congress and the executive branch over access to classified internal documents. The administration has already drawn fire from Democrats in the last week for refusing to release internal documents on Hurricane Katrina as well as material related to the lobbyist Jack Abramoff. ..."

IMHO, very, very few Presidents in the last 100 years have done well by getting into a pissing match with the Senior Senate Leadership.

Rob

[ February 02, 2006, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: ITJock ]
sportinlife
Abraham Lincoln confronted a "domestic" crisis that threatened to rend the nation.

Franklin D. Roosevelt faced the worst economic depression the nation has ever seen.

Harry S. Truman was trying to rebuild Europe as well as the the war-torn USA. All bent the law.

From the real deal to the New Deal, then the Fair Deal; we have arrived at the No Deal tyrant.
MIB
QUOTE
ITJock:
QUOTE
MIB:
Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all? Why, it's MIB! ohmy.gif
MIB,

You DO KNOW what they call people who talk to their mirrors all the time don't you?
Supremely confident and damn fair. ohmy.gif smile.gif
RazorbackTX
"Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires---a wiretap requires a court order.

Nothing has changed, by the way.

When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."

President George W. Bush
April 20, 2004

So, we have to get a court order, except for when we dont.
KeyWest Guy
Move On's new ad.

Check out the ad of Nixon and Bush.
sportinlife
Apparently George W. Bush assumes the presidential powers he assumes in to fight this false war are complete and non-reviewable.

Two presidential elections have been corrupted. Most of the members of congress, some in both parties, but most importantly in the majority party, are compromised by the same influential lobbyists who support the current president.

Only the interim elections might stop a dictator.
hockeyTom
There was a large front page story about an alleged listening post here in Eastern Washington not far from the city of Yakima, Wa. in my morning Spokesman-Review. They also ran a picture of many, many antennas as well. Of course there was no official comment from spokespeople as to the nature of the facility near Yakima.
twin58
QUOTE
hockeyTom
There was a large front page story ... in my morning Spokesman-Review.
The S-R, which requires registration, also blocks access via Bugmenot. The story has been picked up by the AP, so it should be available from several other sites. The Seattle P-I picked it up.

NSA listening post in Yakima is secret no more

QUOTE
\"In the entire country, it happens to be in your back yard,\" said James Bamford, a former network news investigative producer who documented the Yakima installation in his 1982 book about the NSA, \"The Puzzle Palace.\"

\"It doesn't make noise, doesn't send smoke,\" he said. \"It's almost invisible. The whole agency is virtually invisible.\"

Bamford and others keyed into electronic eavesdropping say the Yakima Research Station has played a major role for decades in Echelon, the global surveillance network operated by the NSA and its counterparts in the British Commonwealth -- Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

And it has a sister installation in Sugar Grove, W.Va.
I know where the one in WV is. The NSA installations are inevitably located near huge commercial satellite downlink facilities, so they are in the satellite's footprint.
MIB
Several former Clinton administration officials are among the group of "scholars of constitutional law and former government officials" who last week submitted a letter to Congress--posted on the New York Review of Books website--asserting that the Bush administration had "failed to identify any plausible legal authority" for the NSA program that does not comply with the warrant procedure mandated by Congress in FISA (the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978). One of those former Clinton administration officials is Walter Dellinger.

But in 1994, Dellinger was singing a different tune. As the Assistant Attorney General in the Clinton Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, Dellinger explained in a written opinion to the White House, that: "The President has enhanced responsibility to resist unconstitutional provisions that encroach upon the constitutional powers of the Presidency."

The opinion is excerpted at some length in a letter being submitted to the Judiciary Committee by Bryan Cunningham, a lawyer in Colorado who worked in both the Clinton and Bush administrations (in the NSA, CIA and DOJ). That letter is now available at the website of Bryan’s lawfirm, www.morgancunningham.net.

The letter demonstrates that settled legal principles, developed by the federal courts since the Nation’s founding and cited by administrations of both political parties, most assuredly including the Clinton administration, emphasize that the President of the United States has plenary authority in the matter of foreign intelligence collection (and foreign affairs generally). Bryan also illustrates that separation-of-powers principles obligate the President to decline to enforce (i.e., to ignore) congressional statutes that encroach on or purport to limit the executive’s constitutional powers--just as FISA does. This, too, is a position the Justice Department has aggressively defended under both Republican and Democrat administrations.

Given the hearing scheduled to begin today, when Atty. General Alberto Gonzales will be testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee, the entire Cunningham letter is well worth reading. Especially noteworthy is Dellinger’s 1994 OLC opinion, which states, for example:

QUOTE

Let me start with a general proposition that I believe to be uncontroversial: there are circumstances in which the President may appropriately decline to enforce a statute that he views as unconstitutional.

First, there is significant judicial approval of this proposition. Most notable is the Court's decision in Myers v. United States, 272 U.S. 52 (1926). There the Court sustained the President's view that the statute at issue was unconstitutional without any member of the Court suggesting that the President had acted improperly in refusing to abide by the statute. More recently, in Freytag v. Commissioner, 501 U.S. 868 (1991), all four of the Justices who addressed the issue agreed that the President has \"the power to veto encroaching laws . . . or even to disregard them when they are unconstitutional.\" Id. at 906 (Scalia, J., concurring); see also Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579, 635-38 (1952) (Jackson, J., concurring) (recognizing existence of President's authority to act contrary to a statutory command).

Second, consistent and substantial executive practice also confirms this general proposition. Opinions dating to at least 1860 assert the President's authority to decline to effectuate enactments that the President views as unconstitutional. See, e.g., Memorial of Captain Meigs, 9 Op. Att'y Gen. 462, 469-70 (1860) (asserting that the President need not enforce a statute purporting to appoint an officer); see also annotations of attached Attorney General and Office of Legal Counsel opinions. Moreover, as we discuss more fully below, numerous Presidents have provided advance notice of their intention not to enforce specific statutory requirements that they have viewed as unconstitutional, and the Supreme Court has implicitly endorsed this practice. See INS v. Chadha, 462 U.S. 919, 942 n.13 (1983) (noting that Presidents often sign legislation containing constitutionally objectionable provisions and indicate that they will not comply with those provisions).
Also particularly interesting given the number of Clinton officials who signed the aforementioned letter condemning President Bush’s alleged flouting of the FISA wiretap statute, is another opinion issued by the Clinton administration’s OLC--this one in 2000. It’s discussed at length in the Cunningham letter. The Clinton OLC asserted, among other things, that even though the criminal wiretap statute (18 USC Sec 2510 et seq.) purports to limit the executive branch’s ability to disclose wiretap information, the President was free to ignore those statutory provisions where limiting \"the access of the President and his aides to information critical to national security or foreign relations . . . would be unconstitutional as applied in those circumstances.\"

Imagine the hysteria at the New York Times if the Ashcroft Justice Department had issued formal legal guidance with such a title! Is there any doubt that we'd be hearing horrific reminders of Watergate, \"torture memos and domestic spying\"?

Alas, this is the title of the formal guidance issued by the CLINTON Justice Department in 1994, referred to above.

The Office of Legal Counsel Opinion, written by then-Assistant Attorney General Walter Dellinger to then-White House Counsel Abner Mikva, is available online here. Evidently, presidential power-- including the authority to ignore statutory restrictions that would curtail the President's inherent power to collect foreign intelligence information and protect national security--was worthy of vigorous defending when it was being wielded by a Democrat.

Also very worthy of perusing is a 2000 opinion rendered by the Clinton Justice Department, entitled: \"SHARING TITLE III ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE MATERIAL WITH THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY.\" It is available here. It includes these gems:

QUOTE

[I]n extraordinary circumstances electronic surveillance conducted pursuant to Title III may yield information of such importance to national security or foreign relations that the President's constitutional powers will permit disclosure of the information to the intelligence community notwithstanding the restrictions of Title III. . . . [T]he Constitution vests the President with responsibility over all matters within the executive branch that bear on national defense and foreign affairs, including, where necessary, the collection and dissemination of national security information. Because \"[i]t is 'obvious and unarguable' that no governmental interest is more compelling than the security of the Nation,\" Haig, 453 U.S. at 307 (quoting Aptheker v. Secretary of State, 378 U.S. 500, 509 (1964)), the President has a powerful claim, under the Constitution, to receive information critical to the national security or foreign relations and to authorize its disclosure to the intelligence community. Where the President's authority concerning national security or foreign relations is in tension with a statutory rather than a constitutional rule, the statute cannot displace the President's constitutional authority and should be read to be \"subject to an implied exception in deference to such presidential powers.\" Rainbow Navigation, Inc. v. Department of the Navy, 783 F.2d 1072, 1078 (D.C. Cir. 1986) (Scalia, J.). We believe that, if Title III limited the access of the President and his aides to information critical to national security or foreign relations, it would be unconstitutional as applied in those circumstances.

Accordingly, law enforcement officers who acquire information vital to national security or foreign relations would be obliged to convey it to the appropriate superiors (e.g., the United States Attorney), who would report it to the Attorney General or Deputy Attorney General, who would in turn report it to the President or his designee. The President (or appropriate officials acting on his behalf, such as the Attorney General) would be authorized to share such crucial information with his executive branch subordinates, including intelligence community officials, to the extent necessary to discharge his constitutional responsibilities. Of course, this constitutional authority should not be exercised as a matter of course. Rather, it should only be exercised in extraordinary circumstances and with great care, and only where disclosure is necessary to the discharge of the President's constitutional responsibilities over matters of national security or foreign affairs. Even then, any contemplated exercise of this authority would necessitate careful consideration of the intrusion on privacy that might result.

Nor do we believe that disclosure of Title III information in these circumstances would violate the Fourth Amendment. Even if a disclosure of Title III information (as distinct from the seizure of the information) could otherwise violate the Fourth Amendment in some circumstances--a matter we do not address--we do not believe that this is an impediment to disclosure of Title III information of serious foreign affairs or national security import to the President. As we noted in our 1997 grand jury memorandum, the Supreme Court has recognized in other contexts that government actions overriding individual rights or interests may be justified where necessary to prevent serious damage to the national security or foreign policy of the United States. See Haig, 453 U.S. at 309 (invoking the principle that the Constitution's guarantees of individual rights do not make it a \"suicide pact\"); American Communications Ass'n v. Douds, 339 U.S. 382, 408-09 (1950) (to the same effect). We consider it very unlikely that the Court would conclude that the Fourth Amendment prohibits the disclosure of information vital to the national security or foreign relations of the United States.
fantomas
Is this plagiarism yet again? MIB, man, come on. Why don't you post YOUR OWN thoughts on the issues or give credit where it's due when you're directly copying other people's words VERBATIM?

Just put in quotes the exact language that others have written. A phrase or two is one thing, but you're taking whole passages from right-wing Websites like the National Review and WSJ editorial page. I can understand that you strongly agree with and admire these other writers' thoughts, but plagiarism is serious stuff. Maybe there are no legal issues about you doing this once or repeatedly, but if there are, mightn't you also be endangering Outsports?


QUOTE
MIB:

But in 1994, Dellinger was singing a different tune. As the Assistant Attorney General in the Clinton Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, Dellinger explained in a written opinion to the White House, that: \"The President has enhanced responsibility to resist unconstitutional provisions that encroach upon the constitutional powers of the Presidency.\"

The opinion is excerpted at some length in a letter being submitted to the Judiciary Committee by Bryan Cunningham, a lawyer in Colorado who worked in both the Clinton and Bush administrations (in the NSA, CIA and DOJ). That letter is now available at the website of Bryan’s lawfirm, www.morgancunningham.net.
From the National Review Online \\"The Corner:

QUOTE
But in 1994, Dellinger was singing a different tune. As the Assistant Attorney General in the Clinton Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, Dellinger explained in a written opinion to the White House, that: “The President has enhanced responsibility to resist unconstitutional provisions that encroach upon the constitutional powers of the Presidency.”

The opinion is excerpted at some length in a letter being submitted to the Judiciary Committee by my friend Bryan Cunningham, a terrific lawyer in Colorado who worked in both the Clinton and Bush administrations (in the NSA, CIA and DOJ). That letter is now available at the website of Bryan’s lawfirm, www.morgancunningham.net.
and then:

QUOTE
MIB
Imagine the hysteria at the New York Times if the Ashcroft Justice Department had issued formal legal guidance with such a title! Is there any doubt that we'd be hearing horrific reminders of Watergate, \"torture memos and domestic spying\"?
From the National Review Online:

QUOTE
Imagine the hysteria at the New York Times if the Ashcroft Justice Department had issued formal legal guidance with such a title! Is there any doubt that we'd be hearing horrific reminders of Watergate, \"torture memos,\" and \"domestic spying\"?
Or are you "Andy McCarthy," who's posting to the National Review Online?

Because otherwise, his words are his own, and it's intellectual dishonest and pretty creepy to keep posting them without attribution as if they were yours.

[ February 06, 2006, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
MIB
So you frequent right-wing sites, huh? Caught ya.

The truth in those words remains, and that is what irks you.

[ February 06, 2006, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]
Neptune
QUOTE
fantomas:
I can understand that you strongly agree with and admire these other writers' thoughts, but plagiarism is serious stuff. Maybe there are no legal issues about you doing this once or repeatedly, but if there are, mightn't you also be endangering Outsports?
Not just inherently intellectually dishonest, plagiarism poses serious potential problems for Outsports. A couple of years ago, the L.A. Times successfully sued Free Republic for allowing the posting of Times articles on the FR messageboard without permission. I doubt the risk of harming an online community would stop someone who has already rationalized the theft of someone else's intellectual property. But it's really unfortunate--just plain selfish and disrespectful.

[ February 06, 2006, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Neptune ]
MIB
It matters not whence the truth came, for it still remains the truth.

Some of my wisdom I may reference, but it got to the point where the partisan idiots in here automatically dismiss something if it was found anywhere else other than leftwingnutjobs.com

Sage words are still sage words, made even more so by my eloquent brilliance.
fantomas
QUOTE
MIB:
So you frequent right-wing sites, huh? Caught ya.

The truth in those words remains, and that is what irks you.
You're such a plagiarist all it requires is a Yahoo! or Google search, MIB. And seriously, the National Review's "Corner," with Jonah Goldberg, whom you claimed you'd "never heard of," as truth? Come on, you're smarter than this. Aren't you?
Neptune
Fantomas, just let it go--you're starting to sound like a broken record. Frankly, someone who plagiarizes is a non entity to me, since it's a waste time figuring out whether I'm responding to someone's personally drafted posts or those of his/her ghostwriter.

I try to be a humble person who treats people with honesty and respect, but if I'm going to get dishonesty, disrespect, and self-aggrandizement in return, then it's time to end the engagement. Maybe you should think about doing the same. And I say this as someone who tries to keep an open mind about most matters debated here.

A wise man told me don't argue with fools.
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who

-Jay-Z, "The Takeover"

I have no doubt that the plagiarism will continue, even if it eventually poses a legal threat to Outsports [it's not even falling under the fair use doctrine of copyright law]. It takes a particularly selfish person to steal the eloquence of others, even when it constitutes copyright infringement and/or misappropriation. So I doubt it will stop, even in the face of evidence of potential harm (see, e.g., LA TImes v. Free Republic). This behavior does a disservice to the board, and it does a disservice to authors--e.g., Pierre du Pont seems like a pretty eloquent guy, though I may disagree with his politcs. But you wouldn't know that unless somebody identified him as the correct author of his article posted here. What's going on here is shameless theft, pure and simple.

[ February 06, 2006, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Neptune ]
fantomas
No, Nepture, you're right. I actually stopped responding to the provocations a few weeks ago, but after I saw this most recent blatant post, I actually had to do a Yahoo! search to see if it was yet again another example of what's been going on. Sadly it was. That's why I asked if he was the right-winger (McCarthy) writing the pieces on NRO. If they were his pieces, then okay, mad props to you even though I disagree with you. But all I got was a nasty, so you're visiting the site too. As I said, all it took was a basic Websearch. Perhaps Outsports doesn't care, but you're right, there's no need to engage it anymore. If outright intellectual theft is not a problem to some, so be it.
MIB
Ah, the truth of the words really does hurt. And chastisement coming from someone who seems to spend way too much time scouring the Internet and posting elitist comments as his own then criticizing me? Oh! The hypocrisy! rolleyes.gif
sportinlife
QUOTE
Bryan also illustrates that separation-of-powers principles obligate the President to decline to enforce (i.e., to ignore) congressional statutes that encroach on or purport to limit the executive’s constitutional powers--just as FISA does.
In that case the Bush administration should have no problem submitting the policy of ignoring FISA to the third official branch of government - the judiciary. Bush has bypassed BOTH the congress and the judiciary to date, not to mention voters.
MIB
QUOTE
sportinlife:
In that case the Bush administration should have no problem submitting the policy of ignoring FISA to the third official branch of government - the judiciary.
Absolutely, positively, unequivocally not. Foreign intelligence is the sole responsibility of the executive branch.
hockeyTom
So Mib, still waiting for sone names of some Democrats, and there must be a few, maybe or or two, you actaully like and/or endorse?? :confused:
hockeyTom
Ignore this request, I just read your reply. wink
MIB
Request ignored. biggrin.gif
RazorbackTX
Lie #458,321:

Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires-a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so.
sportinlife
QUOTE
MIB:
QUOTE
sportinlife:
In that case the Bush administration should have no problem submitting the policy of ignoring FISA to the third official branch of government - the judiciary.
Absolutely, positively, unequivocally not. Foreign intelligence is the sole responsibility of the executive branch.
Nor apparently is domestic spying. By redefining everything as foreign spying no review is needed?
MIB
Spying is clearly part of national security and foreign policy, which is solely under the purview of the executive branch.
Herr Tiggee
Spying on activities which cross borders falls under your definition, MIB. Internal domestic spying, however, is both illegal and un-American.

The fed gov't has no right to check what books I check out from a library, unless I am under surveillance for a specific suspicion.

A government which adopts a policy of spying on its citizens demonstrates that it does not trust its own citizens. Governments which can not trust their citizens are often governments which themselves are not worthy of our trust. At last check, we do not live in Cuba, China, the old USSR, North Korea, Nazi Germany, etc.

[ February 07, 2006, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Herr Tiggee ]
sportinlife
The spying itself as I understand it is not the issue so much as the lack of oversight by any other branch of government.

The executive branch "informed" a few select congress{wo)men, only one of whom had the courage or presence of mind to question the process at the time. Without aides they bulked.

Essentially we are asked to trust a leader who has shown himself to be untrustworthy repeatedly.
MIB
QUOTE
Herr Tiggee:
Spying on activities which cross borders falls under your definition, MIB. Internal domestic spying, however, is both illegal and un-American.

The fed gov't has no right to check what books I check out from a library, unless I am under surveillance for a specific suspicion.

A government which adopts a policy of spying on its citizens demonstrates that it does not trust its own citizens. Governments which can not trust their citizens are often governments which themselves are not worthy of our trust. At last check, we do not live in Cuba, China, the old USSR, North Korea, Nazi Germany, etc.
Earth to Herr T.: the government has been sticking its nose into your business for years, oftentimes with your knowledge and permission, so to act now like it's some violation of your privacy is rather foolish.
Herr Tiggee
Earth to you! Just because spying, in some smaller degree, has occured in the past doesn't mean I have to accept some official enshrinement of the practice, nor the INCREASE in the areas which the gov't snoops.

Ya know, the Hatfields and McCoys killed one another for decades, so by your logic everyone should've just accpeted it because it had been going on for so long.

Where I surf on Google is none of the government's god damned business.
What books I read are none of the government's god damned business.
I wasn't born in 1984, and I have no intention of accepting Orwell's fiction as my reality. If the gov't wants to snoop, I have the right to thumb my nose at them and tell them to f**k off.

Sincerely,
Herr Libertarian
MIB
QUOTE
Herr Tiggee:
Where I surf on Google is none of the government's god damned business.
Too bad the government doesn't want to do this. It might help if you get the facts from some source other than emotionally laden, left-wing media whores.

QUOTE
[b]
What books I read are none of the government's god damned business.
[/QB]
And this isn't the case either.
Herr Tiggee
Sometimes your bullshit is baffling. The gov't requested that Google release it's search data to the feds, and Google said no. I guess that whole affair was just some mass hallucination.

And one of the less American aspects of our new war on terror was the government's renewed focus on public libraries. I guess that was also just some mass hallucination.

I also notice that whenever someone disagrees with you, they get slapped with the "lib" label. That's such a low-brow angle. My posts over these many years have demonstrated my libertarian lean. I hate lib tax&spend ideology as much as I hate neo-con invasions of privacy. Pick your insults more wisely next time.
ITJock
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MIB:
You only wish you had the scope and depth that I possess.[/QB]
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Yep - you are a pretty deep pile of it, and do like spreading it around some.

We'll give you that.

Sure must be a lot of pretty flowers around you though.

R
fantomas
Liberal is not an insult.

But "right-wing" sure is!

Back to the topic at hand, it looks like a House Rethuglican who's facing a tight race in New Mexico, Heather Wilson, has found some gumption and is calling for her legislative body to DO ITS JOB and investigate the Warrantless Wiretapper.

Meanwhile, Karl Rove has threatened Senate Rethugs on the Intelligence committee that they'd better not vote against W or else they'll be blackballed.

The irony of that fat-faced appointed creep who outed a CIA agent* threatening popularly elected federally officials lest they incur his wrath is just too outrageous for words. And you know what? The Rethugs, including Specter, Graham and Brownback, who have expressed "concerns" about WW's illegal domestic wiretapping, are going to fall in line. Hell, Rove made sure they didn't swear in little Alberto, who babbled like 4 different brooks, because they knew he could very well be guilty of perjury once all the facts come to light. That is, if he could get his stories straight, poor thing. I say subpoena Warrantless himself. Let's see if he refuses to show up.

A heck of a job, Republicans, hollaback!
--
*BTW, didn't Warrantless Wiretapper tell us he was going to fire anyone who was found leaking blah blah blah? Holla!
sportinlife
When Cheney has to emerge from his crypt, as he did recently on PBS in a very soft interview with Jim Lehrer, you know the water must be getting hot. He slithered easily through questioning that hardly challenged the past poor decisions by the Bush administration. And I am still waiting for his explanation of his hasty claim that the anthrax poisonings were related to foreign terrorism before the investigation was even warm, and what he and the energy moguls talked about during their secret meetings, Qaeda?
hockeyTom
Did anyone else catch some of the comments from the Dems yesterday at the funeral for Coretta Scott King? Damn, get down! Jimmy Carter said it like it was, and brought up that Martin Luther was spied on and upon, and Coretta probably was as well. In addition, another Pastor from some church got up and started talking about, there were no weapons of mass destruction found, but there were weapons of "miss direction". Chris Matthews called it political theatre on his "Hardball".
MIB
QUOTE
Herr Tiggee:
The gov't requested that Google release it's search data to the feds
The government never wanted or asked for individuals' search records, as you falsely claim. Learn the facts before you run in here screaming your head off.

QUOTE

And one of the less American aspects of our new war on terror was the government's renewed focus on public libraries. I guess that was also just some mass hallucination.
Hallucination? Nah, just ignorance, as well as a complete misunderstanding of Section 215 of the Patriot Act. Perhaps you ought to read that. You might learn, then, what this whole library fuss is all about.

Pick your assertions more wisely next time.
MIB
QUOTE
ITJock:
...and do like spreading it around some.

We'll give you that.
There is nothing I enjoy more than spreading brilliance, wisdom, and common sense. It is challenging, I admit, but it is a burden I accept with grace, humility, and pride. smile.gif
millerbeach
Then why don't you start speading some truth? We've heard all of your lies. The truth coming from you, MIB, would be most refreshing.
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