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Bill W
which is illegal. Demand impeachment. From the NY Times:

QUOTE
By JAMES RISEN
and ERIC LICHTBLAU

WASHINGTON, Dec. 15 ­- Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.


Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible \"dirty numbers\" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. The agency, they said, still seeks warrants to monitor entirely domestic communications.


The previously undisclosed decision to permit some eavesdropping inside the country without court approval represents a major shift in American intelligence-gathering practices, particularly for the National Security Agency, whose mission is to spy on communications abroad. As a result, some officials familiar with the continuing operation have questioned whether the surveillance has stretched, if not crossed, constitutional limits on legal searches.


\"This is really a sea change,\" said a former senior official who specializes in national security law. \"It's almost a mainstay of this country that the N.S.A. only does foreign searches.\"


Nearly a dozen current and former officials, who were granted anonymity because of the classified nature of the program, discussed it with reporters for The New York Times because of their concerns about the operation's legality and oversight.


According to those officials and others, reservations about aspects of the program have also been expressed by Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, the West Virginia Democrat who is the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and a judge presiding over a secret court that oversees intelligence matters. Some of the questions about the agency's new powers led the administration to temporarily suspend the operation last year and impose more restrictions, the officials said.


The Bush administration views the operation as necessary so that the agency can move quickly to monitor communications that may disclose threats to this country, the officials said. Defenders of the program say it has been a critical tool in helping disrupt terrorist plots and prevent attacks inside the United States.


Administration officials are confident that existing safeguards are sufficient to protect the privacy and civil liberties of Americans, the officials say. In some cases, they said, the Justice Department eventually seeks warrants if it wants to expand the eavesdropping to include communications confined within the United States. The officials said the administration had briefed Congressional leaders about the program and notified the judge in charge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the secret Washington court that deals with national security issues.


The White House asked The New York Times not to publish this article, arguing that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny. After meeting with senior administration officials to hear their concerns, the newspaper delayed publication for a year to conduct additional reporting. Some information that administration officials argued could be useful to terrorists has been omitted.


While many details about the program remain secret, officials familiar with it said the N.S.A. eavesdropped without warrants on up to 500 people in the United States at any given time. The list changes as some names are added and others dropped, so the number monitored in this country may have reached into the thousands over the past three years, several officials said. Overseas, about 5,000 to 7,000 people suspected of terrorist ties are monitored at one time, according to those officials.


Several officials said the eavesdropping program had helped uncover a plot by Iyman Faris, an Ohio trucker and naturalized citizen who pleaded guilty in 2003 to supporting Al Qaeda by planning to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge with blowtorches. What appeared to be another Qaeda plot, involving fertilizer bomb attacks on British pubs and train stations, was exposed last year in part through the program, the officials said. But they said most people targeted for N.S.A. monitoring have never been charged with a crime, including an Iranian-American doctor in the South who came under suspicion because of what one official described as dubious ties to Osama bin Laden.


Dealing With a New Threat


The eavesdropping program grew out of concerns after the Sept. 11 attacks that the nation's intelligence agencies were not poised to deal effectively with the new threat of Al Qaeda and that they were handcuffed by legal and bureaucratic restrictions better suited to peacetime than war, according to officials. In response, President Bush significantly eased limits on American intelligence and law enforcement agencies and the military.


But some of the administration's antiterrorism initiatives have provoked an outcry from members of Congress, watchdog groups, immigrants and others who argue that the measures erode protections for civil liberties and intrude on Americans' privacy. Opponents have challenged provisions of the USA Patriot Act, the focus of contentious debate on Capitol Hill this week, that expand domestic surveillance by giving the Federal Bureau of Investigation more power to collect information like library lending lists or Internet use. Military and F.B.I. officials have drawn criticism for monitoring what were largely peaceful antiwar protests. The Pentagon and the Department of Homeland Security were forced to retreat on plans to use public and private databases to hunt for possible terrorists. And last year, the Supreme Court rejected the administration's claim that those labeled \"enemy combatants\" were not entitled to judicial review of their open-ended detention.


Mr. Bush's executive order allowing some warrantless eavesdropping on those inside the United States ­ including American citizens, permanent legal residents, tourists and other foreigners ­ is based on classified legal opinions that assert that the president has broad powers to order such searches, derived in part from the September 2001 Congressional resolution authorizing him to wage war on Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups, according to the officials familiar with the N.S.A. operation.


The National Security Agency, which is based at Fort Meade, Md., is the nation's largest and most secretive intelligence agency, so intent on remaining out of public view that it has long been nicknamed \"No Such Agency.'' It breaks codes and maintains listening posts around the world to eavesdrop on foreign governments, diplomats and trade negotiators as well as drug lords and terrorists. But the agency ordinarily operates under tight restrictions on any spying on Americans, even if they are overseas, or disseminating information about them.


What the agency calls a \"special collection program\" began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, as it looked for new tools to attack terrorism. The program accelerated in early 2002 after the Central Intelligence Agency started capturing top Qaeda operatives overseas, including Abu Zubaydah, who was arrested in Pakistan in March 2002. The C.I.A. seized the terrorists' computers, cellphones and personal phone directories, said the officials familiar with the program. The N.S.A. surveillance was intended to exploit those numbers and addresses as quickly as possible, the officials said.


In addition to eavesdropping on those numbers and reading e-mail messages to and from the Qaeda figures, the N.S.A. began monitoring others linked to them, creating an expanding chain. While most of the numbers and addresses were overseas, hundreds were in the United States, the officials said.


Under the agency's longstanding rules, the N.S.A. can target for interception phone calls or e-mail messages on foreign soil, even if the recipients of those communications are in the United States. Usually, though, the government can only target phones and e-mail messages in this country by first obtaining a court order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which holds its closed sessions at the Justice Department.


Traditionally, the F.B.I., not the N.S.A., seeks such warrants and conducts most domestic eavesdropping. Until the new program began, the N.S.A. typically limited its domestic surveillance to foreign embassies and missions in Washington, New York and other cities, and obtained court orders to do so.


Since 2002, the agency has been conducting some warrantless eavesdropping on people in the United States who are linked, even if indirectly, to suspected terrorists through the chain of phone numbers and e-mail addresses, according to several officials who know of the operation. Under the special program, the agency monitors their international communications, the officials said. The agency, for example, can target phone calls from someone in New York to someone in Afghanistan.


Warrants are still required for eavesdropping on entirely domestic-to-domestic communications, those officials say, meaning that calls from that New Yorker to someone in California could not be monitored without first going to the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Court.


A White House Briefing


After the special program started, Congressional leaders from both political parties were brought to Vice President Dick Cheney's office in the White House. The leaders, who included the chairmen and ranking members of the Senate and House intelligence committees, learned of the N.S.A. operation from Mr. Cheney, Gen. Michael V. Hayden of the Air Force, who was then the agency's director and is now the principal deputy director of national intelligence, and George J. Tenet, then the director of the C.I.A., officials said.


It is not clear how much the members of Congress were told about the presidential order and the eavesdropping program. Some of them declined to comment about the matter, while others did not return phone calls.


Later briefings were held for members of Congress as they assumed leadership roles on the intelligence committees, officials familiar with the program said. After a 2003 briefing, Senator Rockefeller, the West Virginia Democrat who became vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee that year, wrote a letter to Mr. Cheney expressing concerns about the program, officials knowledgeable about the letter said. It could not be determined if he received a reply. Mr. Rockefeller declined to comment. Aside from the Congressional leaders, only a small group of people, including several cabinet members and officials at the N.S.A., the C.I.A. and the Justice Department, know of the program.


Some officials familiar with it say they consider warrantless eavesdropping inside the United States to be unlawful and possibly unconstitutional, amounting to an improper search. One government official involved in the operation said he privately complained to a Congressional official about his doubts about the legality of the program. But nothing came of his inquiry. \"People just looked the other way because they didn't want to know what was going on,\" he said.


A senior government official recalled that he was taken aback when he first learned of the operation. \"My first reaction was, ‘We're doing what?' \" he said. While he said he eventually felt that adequate safeguards were put in place, he added that questions about the program's legitimacy were understandable.


Some of those who object to the operation argue that is unnecessary. By getting warrants through the foreign intelligence court, the N.S.A. and F.B.I. could eavesdrop on people inside the United States who might be tied to terrorist groups without skirting longstanding rules, they say.


The standard of proof required to obtain a warrant from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court is generally considered lower than that required for a criminal warrant ­ intelligence officials only have to show probable cause that someone may be \"an agent of a foreign power,\" which includes international terrorist groups ­ and the secret court has turned down only a small number of requests over the years. In 2004, according to the Justice Department, 1,754 warrants were approved. And the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court can grant emergency approval for wiretaps within hours, officials say.


Administration officials counter that they sometimes need to move more urgently, the officials said. Those involved in the program also said that the N.S.A.'s eavesdroppers might need to start monitoring large batches of numbers all at once, and that it would be impractical to seek permission from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court first, according to the officials.


Culture of Caution and Rules


The N.S.A. domestic spying operation has stirred such controversy among some national security officials in part because of the agency's cautious culture and longstanding rules.


Widespread abuses ­ including eavesdropping on Vietnam War protesters and civil rights activists ­ by American intelligence agencies became public in the 1970's and led to passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which imposed strict limits on intelligence gathering on American soil. Among other things, the law required search warrants, approved by the secret F.I.S.A. court, for wiretaps in national security cases. The agency, deeply scarred by the scandals, adopted additional rules that all but ended domestic spying on its part.


After the Sept. 11 attacks, though, the United States intelligence community was criticized for being too risk-averse. The National Security Agency was even cited by the independent 9/11 Commission for adhering to self-imposed rules that were stricter than those set by federal law.


Several senior government officials say that when the special operation first began, there were few controls on it and little formal oversight outside the N.S.A. The agency can choose its eavesdropping targets and does not have to seek approval from Justice Department or other Bush administration officials. Some agency officials wanted nothing to do with the program, apparently fearful of participating in an illegal operation, a former senior Bush administration official said. Before the 2004 election, the official said, some N.S.A. personnel worried that the program might come under scrutiny by Congressional or criminal investigators if Senator John Kerry, the Democratic nominee, was elected president.


In mid-2004, concerns about the program expressed by national security officials, government lawyers and a judge prompted the Bush administration to suspend elements of the program and revamp it.


For the first time, the Justice Department audited the N.S.A. program, several officials said. And to provide more guidance, the Justice Department and the agency expanded and refined a checklist to follow in deciding whether probable cause existed to start monitoring someone's communications, several officials said.


A complaint from Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly, the federal judge who oversees the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Court, helped spur the suspension, officials said. The judge questioned whether information obtained under the N.S.A. program was being improperly used as the basis for F.I.S.A. wiretap warrant requests from the Justice Department, according to senior government officials. While not knowing all the details of the exchange, several government lawyers said there appeared to be concerns that the Justice Department, by trying to shield the existence of the N.S.A. program, was in danger of misleading the court about the origins of the information cited to justify the warrants.


One official familiar with the episode said the judge insisted to Justice Department lawyers at one point that any material gathered under the special N.S.A. program not be used in seeking wiretap warrants from her court. Judge Kollar-Kotelly did not return calls for comment.


A related issue arose in a case in which the F.B.I. was monitoring the communications of a terrorist suspect under a F.I.S.A.-approved warrant, even though the National Security Agency was already conducting warrantless eavesdropping. According to officials, F.B.I. surveillance of Mr. Faris, the Brooklyn Bridge plotter, was dropped for a short time because of technical problems. At the time, senior Justice Department officials worried what would happen if the N.S.A. picked up information that needed to be presented in court. The government would then either have to disclose the N.S.A. program or mislead a criminal court about how it had gotten the information.


The Civil Liberties Question


Several national security officials say the powers granted the N.S.A. by President Bush go far beyond the expanded counterterrorism powers granted by Congress under the USA Patriot Act, which is up for renewal. The House on Wednesday approved a plan to reauthorize crucial parts of the law. But final passage has been delayed under the threat of a Senate filibuster because of concerns from both parties over possible intrusions on Americans' civil liberties and privacy.


Under the act, law enforcement and intelligence officials are still required to seek a F.I.S.A. warrant every time they want to eavesdrop within the United States. A recent agreement reached by Republican leaders and the Bush administration would modify the standard for F.B.I. wiretap warrants, requiring, for instance, a description of a specific target. Critics say the bar would remain too low to prevent abuses.


Bush administration officials argue that the civil liberties concerns are unfounded, and they say pointedly that the Patriot Act has not freed the N.S.A. to target Americans. \"Nothing could be further from the truth,\" wrote John Yoo, a former official in the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, and his co-author in a Wall Street Journal opinion article in December 2003. Mr. Yoo worked on a classified legal opinion on the N.S.A.'s domestic eavesdropping program.


At an April hearing on the Patriot Act renewal, Senator Barbara A. Mikulski, Democrat of Maryland, asked Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and Robert S. Mueller III, the director of the F.B.I., \"Can the National Security Agency, the great electronic snooper, spy on the American people?\"


\"Generally,\" Mr. Mueller said, \"I would say generally, they are not allowed to spy or to gather information on American citizens.\" President Bush did not ask Congress to include provisions for the N.S.A. domestic surveillance program as part of the Patriot Act and has not sought any other laws to authorize the operation. Bush administration lawyers argued that such new laws were unnecessary, because they believed that the Congressional resolution on the campaign against terrorism provided ample authorization, officials said.


Seeking Congressional approval was also viewed as politically risky because the proposal would be certain to face intense opposition on civil liberties grounds. The administration also feared that by publicly disclosing the existence of the operation, its usefulness in tracking terrorists would end, officials said.


The legal opinions that support the N.S.A. operation remain classified, but they appear to have followed private discussions among senior administration lawyers and other officials about the need to pursue aggressive strategies that once may have been seen as crossing a legal line, according to senior officials who participated in the discussions.


For example, just days after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York and the Pentagon, Mr. Yoo, the Justice Department lawyer, wrote an internal memorandum that argued that the government might use \"electronic surveillance techniques and equipment that are more powerful and sophisticated than those available to law enforcement agencies in order to intercept telephonic communications and observe the movement of persons but without obtaining warrants for such uses.\"


Mr. Yoo noted that while such actions could raise constitutional issues, in the face of devastating terrorist attacks \"the government may be justified in taking measures which in less troubled conditions could be seen as infringements of individual liberties.\"


The next year, Justice Department lawyers disclosed their thinking on the issue of warrantless wiretaps in national security cases in a little-noticed brief in an unrelated court case. In that 2002 brief, the government said that \"the Constitution vests in the President inherent authority to conduct warrantless intelligence surveillance (electronic or otherwise) of foreign powers or their agents, and Congress cannot by statute extinguish that constitutional authority.\"


Administration officials were also encouraged by a November 2002 appeals court decision in an unrelated matter. The decision by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, which sided with the administration in dismantling a bureaucratic \"wall\" limiting cooperation between prosecutors and intelligence officers, noted \"the president's inherent constitutional authority to conduct warrantless foreign intelligence surveillance.\"


But the same court suggested that national security interests should not be grounds \"to jettison the Fourth Amendment requirements\" protecting the rights of Americans against undue searches. The dividing line, the court acknowledged, \"is a very difficult one to administer.\"


gobar
This doesn't suprise me in the least. What does is that the NYT sat on it for over a year. Especially since they apparantly knew about it before the election. What kind of a piece of shit rag is the NYT anyway? I really hate the Times and don't understand how they are even still relevant.
hockeyTom
Agreed. The timing just sucks totally. Like whats up with this? How could they not release this sooner??? Otherwise, this story sent chills down my spine. Not that surprised though, coming from the most secretive administration in US history. I second the notion for impeachment. This has gone too far. :mad:
illini n milwaukee
I don't think it would have made much of a difference when it came to the election. They sat on it for reasons at least.

Keep in mind the Patriot Act ordeal today. That probably didn't help.
AaronTx
This is not shocking I agree but does not make any more disgusting. This administration acts more and more like the Nixon administration every day.
hockeyTom
Yeah, Shrub will talk about Delay and proclaim his innocense, but he won't comment on this hot potato. Hypocrite!
twin58
Well, Katie, September 11th changed everything.
Well, Brian, September 11th changed everything.
Well, Matt, September 11th changed everything.
Well, Charles, September 11th changed everything.
Well, Bob, September 11th changed everything.
....
ITJock
QUOTE
twin58:
Well, Katie, September 11th changed everything.
Well, Brian, September 11th changed everything.
Well, Matt, September 11th changed everything.
Well, Charles, September 11th changed everything.
Well, Bob, September 11th changed everything.
....
Well, T58, September 11th didn't revoke the US Constitution or the Boll of Rights.

Despite what the political hacks and absolutists would have you believe, we do not live in a totalitarian state.

Yet.

Rob
aquaman
So, Bush says that the reporting of his uber-secret spying is shameful?? But the act itself isn't??

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10530417/
Lksimcoe
Can I ask a question to you guys. As a Canadian, something like this is mind boggling. How can Republicans defend it? (I'd like republicans opinions too)

I'm confused after reading the people defending it.
hockeyTom
I can't speak for the Repugs, and won't, but Shrub said it was "necessary". I stil find it abusive of power and arrogant in my opinion, and it shivers me to the bone. Just my 2 cents worth.
Chill-Trick
Let's examine this....

Terrorists such as Hussien, bin Laden, and others....do what they want, and recruit armed forces in their respective countries to "fight the enemy" they belive their way is the right way and don't seem to have a problem killing people to support their agenda, and preach their "lords" name

Bush - ALL OF THE ABOVE..

So....I ask, How different is Bush from one of those extreme terrorists?
twin58
QUOTE
Lksimcoe
How can Republicans defend it?
Well, Lksimcoe, September 11th changed everything.
twin58
QUOTE
Merloni26
So....I ask, How different is Bush from one of those extreme terrorists?
The terrists have a better command of English.
Chill-Trick
Noo-q-ler

Noo-clee-er
sportinlife
I thought this was funny as hell.

Maybe we could start a thread on locations to bomb to go along with who should be shot.

The NSA would thank us for the recommendations I'm sure.
ITJock
QUOTE
Lksimcoe:
Can I ask a question to you guys. As a Canadian, something like this is mind boggling. How can Republicans defend it? (I'd like republicans opinions too)

I'm confused after reading the people defending it.
How about the opinion of a former Republican?

The R party, in the last 30 years, has traditionally attracted two kinds of people: Fiscal conservatives and Reactionary Absolutists.

Many of the most conservative elements in the party believe that they have an absolute right to do 'what is right' and the hell with anyone elses rights or even the law.

Look at many far left liberals - PETA for example who believe that it is ok to throw animal blood in someones face if they are wearing fur; or to trash science labs and release the animals; or the 'conservationists' who spike trees in logging areas.

Each side's fringes believe they know best, and that they should dictate their ideas to the rest of society, and that society should be grateful to them.

Like all absolutists they are quite willing to do what they perceive as 'right' and to hell with the rest of the communitty, society, or the law.

It is a truley special kind of arrogance found in those who have been sheltered from diversity, who don't really like other people, and in small children.

Watching the President of the US stand up on National TV and defend conspiring to committ dozens of Federal Felony's was admittedly - IMHO - a nadir for the Republic.

Rob
AaronTx
I can understand why someone from Canada would giggle. I would giggle if it did not make me so sick I want to throw up.
millerbeach
This makes me sick and sad at the same time. To think our commander in chief is undermining the ideals that so many fought and died for makes me feel such disgust for Bush. So he thinks he
is above the law...well, then, he should have no problems breaking other laws. What about murder, Mr. Bush? Ready to take up that coke habit again, since, of course, you are above the law? Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Bush is finally making a hero out of Richard M. Nixon. Way to go Bushie, you're doing one heck of a job!
MIB
QUOTE
millerbeach:
Ready to take up that coke habit again, since, of course, you are above the law?
Do you have any evidence to support such a ridiculous and worn out accusation? No. Has anyone ever proved this? No. It's amazing what rumor-mongering can lead people to believe. Now leave King Bush alone.
Ms. de Blazer
QUOTE
MIB
It's amazing what rumor-mongering can lead people to believe.
Yeah, that may be why Grannies for Peace, Quaker pacifists and Vegans got spied on in the name of war on terror.
Ms. de Blazer
And now this:

http://www.sldn.org/templates/press/record...tml?record=2563

GLBT groups were considered possible terrorists for, among other things, conducting a "kiss in" to protest "don't ask don't tell".
KeyWest Guy
From Shrub's own lying lips:

QUOTE
Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so. It's important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution.
Nixon would be proud. rolleyes.gif
Bill W
When civil liberties are protected, the terr'ists win.
hockeyTom
Could this country be so lucky as to find out this idiot committed an impeachable offense??? One can only hope.
George Twins fan
The scary part is, with this recent media blitz he's been doing, his poll numbers are actually improving. I saw a poll on MSNBC last night that had him at 47% approval rating. Just too sad!
hockeyTom
Ah, but lets get the numbers after this controversy broke, which we do not have yet. The American public has short memory spans too.
sportinlife
If a different regime takes power and starts to use this same investigative authority and techniques to force the rich to pay their taxes - or enforce some similarly socialist agenda - a different America might understand why this "abuse" of government power is so important.
aquaman
QUOTE
FireMikeTiceNow:
The scary part is, with this recent media blitz he's been doing, his poll numbers are actually improving. I saw a poll on MSNBC last night that had him at 47% approval rating. Just too sad!
I believe MSNBC was citing the Washington Post poll. Andrea Mitchell, hosting Hardball, said that that one poll runs counter to others they've been seeing. CNN yesterday showed that Bush's media blitz has had no effect on his numbers.
hockeyTom
Now there is headline news on the web about a Federal Judge resigning in protest over Shrubs use of spying without a warrant. What next???
MIB
What makes Bush's actions even more unpalatable is that they weren't really necessary. Warrants could have been obtained even after the fact (unlike normal warrants in other situations), so this rationale that time was of the essence was simply an excuse.

For over 500 years most civilizations have been wary of the concentration of too much power in an executive--king, president, emperor, whatever--so much so that when our Founding Fathers created our government, they specifically and intentionally made Congress Article I of the Constitution. Not the president, not the judiciary, but Congress was given top billing.

They did this for a reason, chief among them that despite the checks and balances on power they wanted for all three branches, the ultimate power, the final say, must rest with the People via Congress. It is the People as Congress who has the last and final word when it comes to everything: they can override vetoes, and that's that; they can impeach and remove a president and members of the judiciary, and that's that; they can completely reshape any part of the judiciary, including the composition of the Supreme Court (they just can't legislate them out of existence); they can counteract decisions of the judiciary, including SCOTUS, via either a constitutional amendment or simply denying the judiciary the jurisdiction of a particular issue or area. In short, if the powers of the federal government--limited by the Constitution--were divided by three, the president would have 33%, the judiciary 33%, and Congress would have 34%, that much more to ensure they were the final word, which is as it should be according to the wishes and intentions of this nation's Founders.

To claim that the Constitution gives one powers that are in essence anethema to it is an insult to not only this great document but also the men who created it.
Elemental
I wonder if they spy on outsports' posters? I hope not. This is like out of Orwell's 1984.
Lksimcoe
QUOTE
Elemental:
I wonder if they spy on outsports' posters? I hope not. This is like out of Orwell's 1984.
A couple of years ago, a friend of mine and his kids were travelling to the US, and were stopped and questioned at the border. It seems his teenage son had a habit of downloading music (amongst other things) from white supremecist (sp) websites (Bands like RaHoWa, which stands for Racial Holy War), and the US border patrols wanted to know why.

My personal opinion was that they were right to question the kid. And somehow I don't think his dad beleived the "I didn't know what those websites were...." arguement. Needlesss to say, the kid STILL doesn't have access to the web unless his Dad's there, but when he spends weekends with his Mom, all controls are off.

The kid scares me, and I think he'll be big trouble when he's older.
bear321
Congressional Profile

House
Party Divisions
231 Republicans
202 Democrats
1 Independent
1 Vacancy

Senate
Party Divisions
55 Republicans
44 Democrats
1 Independent

Question: How can we have Bush impeached with the control of the House and Senate in the hands of the Republicans? During Nixon's presidency were there more or less Republicans in the Congressional Profile?

How would the impeachment process even begin? You know the Republicans are not going to start it.

[ December 21, 2005, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: gadbearr ]
PhillyFan
According to Drudge, you can find the link yourselves....

this shit has been going on forever....
FilthyJock
ok, one response to MIB who posts:

"They did this for a reason, chief among them that despite the checks and balances on power they wanted for all three branches, the ultimate power, the final say, must rest with the People via Congress. "

The Constitution is not a suicide pact...it evolves, and can be re-ordered, and even thrown out, Constitutionally, if done so in the prescribed order for doing so - inevitably, the power ALWAYS rests with the people. In the two hundred plus years since it was written, it is the CONGRESS that has given the Chief Executive more and more power - they continually 'punt' their responsibilities and cry like a bitch later when something they don't like happens as a result.

So the Congress can create the NSA - and for that matter the whole damn alphabet soup of agencies that comprises our government - and then blame those agencies later, and complain about "oversight."

YEAH! or..DUH! I mean, wake UP you outraged white people!!!

This is news? Politics aside momentarily, the Bush Haters would indict him for farting if they could. Grab the REIGNS everyone, and say hello to the world you really live in, not the one you dream it to be.....

They're SPYING ON US!!!! Give me a break. So do your co-workers, your siblings, your ex's, your jealous-types, your neighbors....

...if you use a credit card - if you drive in an busy intersection with cameras, your on-star service in your car, your mobile phone has a GPS..it NEVER ends. Just give UP any pretense of 'privacy' because it doesn't exist. Whether it is the FBI, the IRS, the CIA - it is a fool's paradise you live in if you believe you are immune from spying. Or that you realistically have an expectation that it not be used against you.

Damn it, even your computer tells the world, for a price, which kinky ass perversions you prefer so that marketers can more efficiently and directly sell you their wares...did you give them permission? DAMN those user agreements!!!!!!

Go ahead and decry the 'police state' and smear others, like Log Cabins, smear them for expressing their Constitutional Rights in the same breath you act to defend rights, or I suppose the rights of those who think alike, and just recall that nothing more complicated than if the people simply so desired enough, they could change it all TOMORROW at the ballot box - but the spying would continue.

[ December 21, 2005, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: FilthyJock ]
Bill W
It's nice to know the Log Cabin types have resigned themselves to America's descent into a police state.
PhillyFan
Just like CUBA!

Holla!
KeyWest Guy
QUOTE
PhillyFan:
According to Drudge, you can find the link yourselves....

this shit has been going on forever....
Surprise, surprise--it's now gone from Drudge (doesn't even appear in Drudge's own "Recent Drudge Headlines). Once NBC showed that it was a lie, it disappeared. Clinton and Carter authorized no warrant searches so long as it didn't apply to U.S. citizens or within U.S. borders.

Try again, PF. rolleyes.gif

Edited to add the link.
Drudge and GOP lie about Clinton & Carter.

[ December 21, 2005, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: KeyWest Guy ]
sfdriftking76
I'm certainly not an absolutist. What I am is a realist. The fact of the matter is we still have people in this country and across the world who wants to harm innocent civilians at any cost. Unlike others, I don’t have a short term memory. The unforgettable events of 9/11, bombings in London, Spain, and Beirut, will all be etched in my mind forever. Terrorism has changed the way we live and the way this nation does business. You can thank the terrorist for the erosion of civil liberties. I support our president and I have no problem with Bush using any means necessary to keep us safe.
Terrorist are nothing but cowards.

If what Bush is doing is so wrong like the Democrats are proclaiming, then impeach him. I want to see which Democrat in Congress has the balls to get this started?
sportinlife
Wouldn't it be interesting if an unelected President appointed by the Supreme Court were also removed by him.

Perhaps there is some hope for our Constitutional system to work.
KeyWest Guy
QUOTE
alleninsf:
If what Bush is doing is so wrong like the Democrats are proclaiming, then impeach him. I want to see which Democrat in Congress has the balls to get this started?
Civics 101. Articles of Impeachment must be brought by the House of Representatives. Said House is controlled by the GOP. Ergo, no impeachment.
aquaman
QUOTE
alleninsf:
I support our president and I have no problem with Bush using any means necessary to keep us safe.
Any means necessary? That is perhaps one of the most anti-American, pro-dictatorial thing I have ever seen written on these boards.
dfwAggie99
Why does a fear of terrorist attacks allow for a democratic leader to spy on its citizens?

It's obvious we need to spy on the average citizen...so college kids writing assigned papers can get interrogated for 3 hours...that makes me feel much safer.

Oh, and by the way...I am SO glad they extended that Patriot Act for 6 more months...I heard Bushy saying in a news clip that we would be so unsafe on Jan 1 if it didn't get passed. I was already wondering if I could leave my home that day, or if they should cancel the college bowl games. Glad I don't need to make a quick run to the hardware store and replenish my supply of duct tape...it's kinda low right now. rolleyes.gif
Ms. de Blazer
To keep us safe? From what?
Frankly, I am far more likely to be raped than to die in a terrorist attack. What is Bush doing to extend the Violence against Women act? Make emergency contracption available? Or support women's rights in general? He opposes them.
Identity theft is growing and laws have not kept up with it. But the Senate/House majority and the White House oppose all changes in law that can help ensure our private information stays private.
Keeping a job is a necessity for me as for most people. Guess what? Since 9/11 companies can do far more intrusive pre-employment checks. I have no criminal record and don't lie on my resume. But I have discovered, and this is not paranoia, that I was blacklisted throughout the industry where I work because 9 years ago I filed a lawsuit when a company offered me a higher level job than the one I applied for, then withdrew the offer, explicitly stating that while they could accommodate a disabled worker, it was too much trouble. I was out of work for over a year recently because of what happened 9 years ago. Prior to 2001 companies could not check these things out. So is Bush keeping me safe?

Sounds more like the world needs to be kept safe from Bush.

This reminds me of the garbage that women need a man "to protect us". Protect us from what? Children? Women? Equal pay? Those are not the ones who threaten our safety!
Bill W
Dem members of the House have already called for initiation of impeachment processes. You'd never know it from the corporate media, of course.

To the sad, baiting infant above: move to China.
NoLongerHere
MSNBC and New York Blade updates on the info. Ms. de Blazer provided, which provide details about how "gay groups" have been spied upon by the Pentagon:

http://www.newyorkblade.com/thelatest/thel...fm?blog_id=4146
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10454316/
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections...baseTracker.pdf

(holler at me if the PDF link doesn't work)

WORTH NOTING: it is recorded that some groups are enacting their constitutional right to protest - the OUTLaw group at NYU, however, is not listed as one of them...
hockeyTom
Thats as about as un-American as it gets. I mean what the hell is wrong with this administration.???? Well I know whats wrong with them but still....Their arrogance is just mind boggling to me.
twin58
Alito Said Attorney General Immune From Wiretap Suits (1984)

Well, that explains that.
sportinlife
QUOTE
Ms. de Blazer:
Keeping a job is a necessity for me as for most people. Guess what? Since 9/11 companies can do far more intrusive pre-employment checks. I have no criminal record and don't lie on my resume. But I have discovered, and this is not paranoia, that I was blacklisted throughout the industry where I work because 9 years ago I filed a lawsuit when a company offered me a higher level job than the one I applied for, then withdrew the offer, explicitly stating that while they could accommodate a disabled worker, it was too much trouble. I was out of work for over a year recently because of what happened 9 years ago. Prior to 2001 companies could not check these things out. So is Bush keeping me safe?
I feel your pain. I've suspected such blacklisting myself since complaining about what I considered sexual harassment by a former employer, but have never seen documented proof of such blacklisting. I was struck however by the honest 'advice of one job recruiter who "reassured" me with the words "That's just the way things work." rolleyes.gif
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