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fantomas
Once again, we've got people on this board who can't get enough of supporting W, though he has declared war on homos, but some of our soldiers are saying enough is enough. God bless and protect these brave young people!

Christian Science Monitor: A strident anti-W minority among US troops

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\"[For] 9 out of 10 of the people I talk to, it wouldn't matter who ran against Bush - they'd vote for them,\" said a US soldier in the southern city of Najaf, seeking out a reporter to make his views known. \"People are so fed up with Iraq, and fed up with Bush.\"

With only three weeks until an Oct. 11 deadline set for hundreds of thousands of US troops abroad to mail in absentee ballots, this segment of the military vote is important - symbolically, as a reflection on Bush as a wartime commander, and politically, as absentee ballots could end up tipping the balance in closely contested states.

It is difficult to gauge the extent of disaffection with Bush, which emerged in interviews in June and July with ground forces in central, northern, and southern Iraq. No scientific polls exist on the political leanings of currently deployed troops, military experts and officials say.

To be sure, broader surveys of US military personnel and their spouses in recent years indicate they are more likely to be conservative and Republican than the US civilian population - but not overwhelmingly so.
and

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\"Nobody I know wants Bush,\" says an enlisted soldier in Najaf, adding, \"This whole war was based on lies.\" Like several others interviewed, his animosity centered on a belief that the war lacked a clear purpose even as it took a tremendous toll on US troops, many of whom are in Iraq involuntarily under \"stop loss\" orders that keep them in the service for months beyond their scheduled exit in order to keep units together during deployments.

\"There's no clear definition of why we came here,\" says Army Spc. Nathan Swink, of Quincy, Ill. \"First they said they have WMD and nuclear weapons, then it was to get Saddam Hussein out of office, and then to rebuild Iraq. I want to fight for my nation and for my family, to protect the United States against enemies foreign and domestic, not to protect Iraqi civilians or deal with Sadr's militia,\" he said.

Specialist Swink, who comes from a family of both Democrats and Republicans, plans to vote for Kerry. \"Kerry protested the war in Vietnam. He is the one to end this stuff, to lead to our exit of Iraq,\" he said.


[ September 21, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
GatorJamie
Lots of military here in the DC area don't support him either. They're just quiet about it.

Damnedest things happen when you let your convention delegates mock Purple Hearts... :mad:
illini n milwaukee
Not only would it be interesting to see how the military vote is (I can't imagine in Washington that it's very strong), but just Americans abroad in general. They don't have the privledge (ha) of watching Fox News.
bobby78751
I can think of one hottie Air Force guy in Arizona who doesn't support the chimp, either. smile.gif
gmginsfo
I'd HARDLY describe myself or any other gay GOPer I know as 100% supportive of President Bush; for most of us the alternative is the problem. These servicemembers have every right to vote as they choose; whether or not all of them realize it, preserving and extending that right is part of why they're in Iraq and I respect and honor their committment, as I do every other fellow veteran's. But for every one of these anti-Bush sentiments in the armed forces, there are those who do understand why we're over there and support the President's leadership in staying on until the job is done.

BTW, the Fox networks, including FNC, are generally available overseas; Mr. Murdoch's empire is a global one.
Travelpat
Fox News is NOT available yet in Canada and this year the interest by Americans who now live in Canada to get their absentee ballots in by all reports is at an all time high and they - just like Canadians in general - overwhelmingly support Kerry according to any news reports I have seen on this issue here in Canada.

In fact some American citizen friends of mine living here in Toronto are exercising their right to cast an absentee ballot for the first time in years because they consider this to be 'the most important election' in their lifetime. And they fear what will happen to their home country if Bush gets re-elected. They see nothing positive about the man and are well aware of the damage he has caused to your nation's reputation worldwide.
bobby78751
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Travelpat:
Fox News is NOT available yet in Canada
Yet another reason to move north of the border. Geez, I always knew Canadians were smarter than Americans. smile.gif
hockeyTom
Rest assured that if and when Canada does get Faux News, its ratings will be horrific. biggrin.gif
hockeyTom
Oh, by the way rousing speech to the U.N. this morning by Shrub. The atmosphere was described as "subdued", and the only applause came at the end of the speech.
fantomas
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puckman1:
Oh, by the way rousing speech to the U.N. this morning by Shrub. The atmosphere was described as \"subdued\", and the only applause came at the end of the speech.
Winning the hearts and minds of the world, just like all those Iraqis who were supposed to be greeting us with "flowers" and chocolates, not improvised road bombs and rockets....
Lksimcoe
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puckman1:
Rest assured that if and when Canada does get Faux News, its ratings will be horrific. biggrin.gif
Fox News was denied a broadcast liscence in Canada 2 years ago as it was not considered a valid news organization, and would not guarantee that their news people would not violate Canada's hate laws.

The exact same reason why all cable companies have declined to carry Al-Jezeera.

We do get fox TV and Fox sports, but with 265 channels on my satellite, they are never watched
gmginsfo
Puckman, what do you expect from an impotent organization that can't even keep Libya off the Commission on Human Rights,* let alone enforce its mandates against nuclear and WMD programs? When someone comes along who does its dirty work for it, and reminds it of its self-imposed obligations, no wonder its members become uncomfortable. President Bush did everything short of telling this emperor it has no clothes - so it's entirely understandable the UN's feeling a bit of a chill.
_____
*See NPR editorial aired on "All Things Considered" 9-20-04.
KeyWest Guy
QUOTE
gmginsfo:
But for every one of these anti-Bush sentiments in the armed forces, there are those who do understand why we're over there and support the President's leadership in staying on until the job is done.
So are you saying that every member of the armed forces who doesn't suuport Bush is simply consufed and that they misunderstand the situation? Wow, a telling statment on your part. Please tell AZAirforce that he's confused and just doesn't understand.

BTW, when will the job be "done", or to use another phrase "mission accomplished"?

[ September 21, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: KeyWest Guy ]
aquaman
Interesting...

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/SciTech/reuters...040921_372.html
gmginsfo
No, KWG, you're saying that - and by illogical and fallacious extension. (I'll avoid using the legal term since you're uncomfortable with those.) Please don't put words into my mouth; I can make my own arguments. And consider the sentiment of the soldier involved: "'There's no clear definition of why we came here,' says Army Spc. Nathan Swink, of Quincy, Ill." While he obviously does not understand why we're there, others may and many do. And there's no need for you to drag other OSers into our debate; they're courageous enough to speak up when they need to. Using them as shields for your own arguments is a further sign of weakness in the argument itself.

Since I'm not a seer, I can't predict when the operation will be over. But when elections are held and the new government gets a grip on running Iraq on its own, that will be a sign we're close. Was President Bush premature in announcing "Mission Accomplished?" Perhaps, but it was a signal that the initial intervention was over, replaced as it has been by terrorist guerrilla warfare. Will that continue? I don't know, but I do know that we'd be wrong in giving up trying to end it and to bring peace, order and democracy to the Iraqis.
fantomas
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gmginsfo:
And consider the sentiment of the soldier involved: \"'There's no clear definition of why we came here,' says Army Spc. Nathan Swink, of Quincy, Ill.\" While he obviously does not understand why we're there, others may and many do.
But the Resident-in-Chief doesn't even \"know why we're over there.\" He's given 28 different rationales. What is it? Saddam didn't have WMDs, while Iran, Pakistan and North Korea do. Saddam didn't have ties to Al-Qaeda, while Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and UAE do. Iraq had ZERO ties to Al Qaeda and had nothing to do with 9/11. We rightly attacked the government that fostered the Taliban, yet let them (Mullah Omar, etc.) and the scumbags of Al Qaeda (Osama, Zawahiri, etc.) get away.

Okay, so let's use some other rationales. Saddam gassed his people. But he did so with US complicity--Reagan-Bush supported him and funded him for 8 years, giving him money, weapons, logistical support, matériel, etc. He slaughtered his own people--but HW urged them to rise up then did nothing to support them. He brutally tamped down on dissent and killed opponents, but then so does the dictator of Zimbabwe, the military dicators of Myanmar, and the Communist government of China, to name three. So why did we go into Iraq? Truthfully? Swink, like millions of Americans and millions more across the globe don't know why. If anyone should, and I don't mean armchair GOP hawks who couldn't bother to serve, our fighting women and men should.

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Was President Bush premature in announcing \"Mission Accomplished?\" Perhaps, but it was a signal that the initial intervention was over, replaced as it has been by terrorist guerrilla warfare. Will that continue? I don't know, but I do know that we'd be wrong in giving up trying to end it and to bring peace, order and democracy to the Iraqis.
But did they even ASK for this? Did they want this? They certainly didn't want the destruction of their country that we're causing. Why didn't we empower THEM to seize the reins of their country, rather than launching this ill-advised, ill-planned, illegitimate, and illegal war, which has turned the majority of Iraqis AGAINST our troops and the USA? With every passing day the debacle the W created becomes clearer. I'm glad that some Republicans, like Chuck Hagel, Dick Lugar, and John McCain have spoken out; perhaps one of these days, other than the double-talk nonsense of "catastrophic success" and "miscalculation," W, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and others will cease clinging to their fantasies and TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY for the mess they've created. They owe it to the American taxpayers, to the American soldiers, and to the Iraqi people whose country is now riven to pieces.

[ September 21, 2004, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
KeyWest Guy
I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I'm quoting verbatim what you said. If you're uncomfortable with what you've said, blame yourself not me.

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gmginsfo:
But for every one of these anti-Bush sentiments in the armed forces, there are those who do understand why we're over there and support the President's leadership in staying on until the job is done.

(emphasis added)
azairforce
I have a lot of friends in Iraq and there is a lot of questions being asked about why we are there; why we went there; and I think the Republicans might be surprised by the anti bush and anti republican views by many military personnel in Iraq and many that were there and back in the states.
Theres a lot more talk than people realize believe me
illini n milwaukee
I can definitely see the national guards men/women and their families being rather upset.
gamecock
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azairforce
I think the Republicans might be surprised by the anti bush and anti republican views by many military personnel in Iraq and many that were there and back in the states.
Theres a lot more talk than people realize believe me.
Great post, AZAF -- thanks for the insight....we can only hope that our troops (whose "absentee ballots" need to be sent out within the next two weeks, if I'm not mistaken) have more of an impact upon the election than many people realize -- including their friends and families back home....the opinions of all the brave men and women who are still in Iraq and Afghanistan (along with those who have already returned, including yourself) should not be overlooked.

~Joe
bobby78751
I am VERY concerned about the ballots our overseas soldiers are using. Does anyone know how they are handled between Iraq/Afghanistan and the final destination in the States? Are there Democrat as well as Republican overseerers to make sure the ballots are not tampered?
RazorbackTX
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bobby78751:
I am VERY concerned about the ballots our overseas soldiers are using. Does anyone know how they are handled between Iraq/Afghanistan and the final destination in the States? Are there Democrat as well as Republican overseerers to make sure the ballots are not tampered?
No worries Bob, the chimp-in-chief has put Katherine Harris in charge of this project.
gmginsfo
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KeyWest Guy:
I'm not putting any words in your mouth. I'm quoting verbatim what you said. If you're uncomfortable with what you've said, blame yourself not me.

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gmginsfo:
But for every one of these anti-Bush sentiments in the armed forces, there are those who do understand why we're over there and support the President's leadership in staying on until the job is done.

(emphasis added)
Emphasis addled, I'd say. Of course I stand by what I wrote, but your spin and illogical extension of it to "every member of the armed forces" is NOT what I wrote nor a reasonable inference from what I wrote; it's a fallacy.

Back to the future: I share the concerns of both the Guardsmen and women whose terms have been involuntarily extended, think they should be brought home ASAP and would argue it highlights the need to make regular service more attractive economically so we don't need to rely on reserves. And I certainly hope that ALL troops, regardless of where they serve, are able to vote and have their vote counted. I know what that's like; I voted in boot camp back in 11-72, and wanted to be sure my vote counted.
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