I'm sure many on the gay left wish this sort of thing would happen more often here in America:

Gay Dutch Pol Killed

William, that's a pretty repugnant comment to make.

Not only repugnant, it's ignorant to refer to Pim Fortuyn, the Le Pen of Holland, who's all for ethnic purity and the rest, a "conservative".
If you are an enlightened conservative, William, it would seem to me that you would want to distance yourself from people like him. Or do you support Fortuyn, Le Pen, and Buchanan?

Repugnant? You know, there's this stuff called decaf. You should try it.

I was being a bit sarcastic, though I don't doubt that the left wishes gay conservatives would just go away, somehow.

I've never really heard of this guy until today, though from what I understand he wasn't a nutcase like Le Pen (who, for what it's worth (Repugnancy Alert!!!), I wanted to win, not because I support his policies (I find them - what's the word I'm looking for? - oh, yes, repugnant) but just to f#@% with the French).

Buchanan - are you talking about Pat Buchanan, the irrelevant has-been who took something like .4 percent of the vote in the last election? It seems like he'd win more support in France, though the Europeans are liable to kill him, it's starting to seem. I do (prepare to be repugnatized!) agree with Buchanan on some issues, though (right to life, 2nd Amendment, etc., assuming he hasn't changed from several years back).

Repugnant? Dude, lighten up . . .

Since I posted my earlier note, I have read several European papers and it seems, in fact, that Fortuyn is not the nut case I had previously heard he was. He is anti-immigration, and his enemies have had an easy time portraying him as a fascist, and that's all we hear a few thousand miles away.
Some have suggested that he's more easily attacked because he's openly gay, but I always assumed that in Holland the gay ussue was mostly moot.

[quote]Originally posted by William1865:
I'm sure many on the gay left wish this sort of thing would happen more often here in America:

Gay Dutch Pol Killed

---

Guys, it's called "projection." Most leftists in this country are too busy fighting among themselves (ourselves) to be plotting the murders of conservatives.

I really cannot believe that you wanted an extremist like LePen to win. I mean, this is a guy who said that the Nazi mass murders, the Holocaust, was a mere "detail in the history of World War II." I mean, what more needs to be said??? THIS MAN IS A DANGEROUS, REVISIONIST WACKO!!! He still got close to 20% of the vote, which is appalling by any measure. Of course, this may chasten the French and stop them from lecturing their neighbors about right-wing extremists and fascists elsewhere, and also strengthen the resolve of the moderate and progressive French left to wake up and clarify their positions.

Neither Poujadist conservatism nor Maoist-Trotskyite social systems are going to work in 2002. There are other options, though I don't think Chirac's Gaullism is one of them. Moreover, France is aging, like most of Europe, and it will require immigrants just to sustain itself, so why not implement sensible and unified EU immigration and asylum policies that don't penalize either the French citizenry or the newcomers?

[I removed the reference to anti-government right-winger Timothy McVeigh.]

[ May 06, 2002: Message edited by: fantomas ]

This assassination should send chills down everyone's spine, especially people who believe in freedom. Even though I'm a person of the center-left, I can recognize that perhaps something must be done about rampant unbridled immigration, especially in Holland, which is overpopulated as it is. All Mr. Foruyn wanted is a curtailment of immigration, not radical deportation or other heinous ideas.

But, he was--rightly--a critic of Islamo-fascism and its dangerous rise in Europe, partly caused by immigration. As a gay man, he recognized the threat to gay rights, women's rights, and religious freedom that the extreme form of Islam represents...and he was probably killed for it.

Remember, as much as everyone wants to be allies with Saudi Arabia and even Egypt, and as much as it's now chic to bend-over backwards to refrain from being even construed as being "anti-muslim," it is in those two countries, as a result of the influence of extreme Islamo-fascism, that, as recently as two months ago, three gay men were BEHEADED simply because they were gay.

Pim Foruyn had the balls to decry this stuff, and he was probably killed for it. But we shall see who the perp turns out to be.

btw,

for good commentary and the skinny on Mr. Fortuyn, check out gay/Brit/former New Republic Editor Andrew Sullivan's web blog at:

www.andrewsullivan.com

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
William, I see you're still falling into the trap of "conservative" and "liberal" meaning the same thing in Europe as it does in the U.S. It does not.

---

When did I fall into this trap before? I don't remember - perhaps I suffered a concussion of some sort during the fall. But how could I still be falling, anyway? Is it a bottomless trap? Does one fall in, get back out and then fall in again?
Is this some weird European trap that is different from what we call "traps" here in America? Do you mean to say I'm caught in a trap, and I can't walk out? We can't go on together with suspicious minds, Ump.

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: William1865 ]

Too bad he wasn't armed. He might have been able to get a shot or two off at his attacker.

Another argument in favor of scrapping useless gun control laws.

[quote]Originally posted by Treebeard:
Too bad he wasn't armed. He might have been able to get a shot or two off at his attacker.

Another argument in favor of scrapping useless gun control laws.

---

Excellent point, TB.

Welcome to the New Europe.
That weird confluence of the extreme Green left and the Islamo-fascist community has committed a murder to silence political dissent in the Netherlands.
Fortuyn was NOT a Le Pen style extreme rightist ... unless someone is so far to the left fringe that they cannot tell the difference between Dennis Hastert and Adolph Hitler. Fortuyn spoke out against the Muslim community BECAUSE of its treatment of gays and of women. Given the whole burqua thing, and the recent capital punishment in Saudi Arabia of three men simply for being gay: sounds like the man had a point to me.
He was shot by an enviro-leftist extremist (technical term: enviro-Nazi) that has decided to up the ante in punishing dissent. Is it no surprise that dissent from the liberal orthodoxy is tolerated less coming from a gay man?
Anyway, the relative non-reaction from the Dutch political establishment is sending the signal that it's open season on anyone who dares dissent and who is openly critical of the obvious shortcomings of the Islamic faith.
In the meantime, in France and Germany, every night is kristallnacht as synagogues are torched regularly as the establishment sits on its hands and allows it to happen, afraid to react because it would brand them a Le Pen style fascist. The Fortuyn killing is certainly not the last political assassination attempt we will see in Europe for this reason.
Yet another reason I'm proud to be a flag-waving American.

Some additional reactions .....

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung

Times of London (check the sidebar articles too, including "Rising Star etc)"


Edited for UBB

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Wurm ]

Radio Netherlands:
http://www.rnw.nl/cgi-bin/home/enhome.pl

The Pim Fortuyn website (in Dutch):
http://www.lijst-pimfortuyn.nl/

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: twin58 ]

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
And this from the part of the world that gave us Napoleon, Mussolini, Hitler, Milosevic, Lenin, Stalin, et. al.

---

Stupendous logical fallacy at work. One could just as easily point out that the US is "the part of the world" that gave us [fill in the blank], and the "argument" would prove nothing.

Revise and resubmit, please.

[quote]Originally posted by twin58:


Stupendous logical fallacy at work. One could just as easily point out that the US is "the part of the world" that gave us [fill in the blank], and the "argument" would prove nothing.

Revise and resubmit, please.

---

You fill in the blank, twin. The US gave us Kennedy, two Roosevelts, G.W. (George Washington), Thomas Jefferson, etc. Which one of these was a monster? Reagan, I assume, is who you are getting at. (If not, I'm disappointed in you.)

There's no denying that Europe has produced some horrible leaders whose damage to the whole world was far greater than anybody we've elected. At least Carter, for example, just f#$@ed up this country.

Here is Fortuyn's platform, just FYI:

Not That Extreme, Really