Rest in Peace, Most Holy John Paul II. Your work is done. You spent your life furthering the causes of Jesus Christ. Welcome to your new home with Jesus Christ. You will be missed.

It's a pity this can't be combined with the "Fun with the 3rd Antichrist" thread. Both seem equally part of the Christian tradition. The Catholic definitions of Antichrist and Christ in themselves leave open the posibility that the original meaning of Antichrist was a predecessor to Christ rather than an opposite. The meanings may have changed.

I am very disturbed with people on here who are condemning a man of love and peace to an eternity in hell. Do you want to be condemned to an eternity in hell? How does Fred Phelps look when he carries around his signs of hate and anger? Do you think you look that way by saying these things about the Pope? He had his issues against us, why must we be angry and spiteful toward him? Love him for the wonderful things he did and forgive him for the things we don't agree with him. I guess you could say that it doesn't really matter what people say, it only depends on how you live your life. And that is VERY true.

Can anyone Catholic on here explain to me how the next Pope can have different views than JPII? This just seems odd to me. Doesn't the Catholic Church have what it does/doesn't believe? A previous poster on here stated that he hopes the next Pope will ease his stance on the use of condoms. Well, if the Catholic Church states that condom usage is against beliefs, then why should the next leader believe anything different? Is the whole damn religion open to interpretation...or personal belief?

If leaders of the Church can pick and choose what they believe, then doesn't this just continue to make the whole thing more irrelevant and pointless than it has already become?

And another thing, if the Pope is the next best thing to God to all those Catholics out there, shouldn't each of these Popes be receiving the same message from God?

All religions require and use interpretation to take ancient religious texts and try to understand modern problems. The Catholic church, unlike some of the more extreme "jump for Jesus" American protestant denominations, does not believe the bible writings are the unerring Word of God - they may have mistakes in them, so interpretation is key.

On the subject of condoms, for instance, the church has been against them because it believes birth control is wrong - the bible says "be fruitful and multiply" after all. However, it would have been entirely possible, and morally proper, for the Pope to waive that restriction for couples where one member is HIV+ - if one truly believes in a "culture of life" then one should not be putting people at risk of death. That would mean putting the greater belief - in the importance and value of each individual life - in front of the "no birth control" rule. That JPII decided not to do that is a clear mistake and will tarnish his legacy.

Even on the subject of birth control the church was divided, and still is, at the time of the Second Vatican Council, when church teachings were re-examined and many modified (e.g., saying Mass only in Latin, which made sense when that language was widely used among all educated peoples as a kind of common language, was modified to allow Mass in the vernacular of the individual country). Many priests believed that birth control would be completely fine within Catholic dogma (personally I think we've already fulfilled the requirements of the "be fruitful" instruction - let's check that off the to-do list). It is entirely possible even a "conservative" cardinal appointed by JPII may differ with him on this issue.

Bono's shares his memories of his times with The Pope in today's USA Today.
I would love to see the photo of The Pope wearing Bono's blue sunglasses!

USA Today link

The Conclave is set to begin on April 18.
CNN Story

Good collection of thoughts from gay American Catholics on the passing of JP2 in this press release from NGLTF.

Coverage of the Pope has been off-the-wall. From the Washington Post:

It's basically massive free publicity for the Catholic Church. Nary a word about the sex abuse scandals. And yet I'm always reading letters in the local papers from idiots claiming anti-Catholic bias. Puh-leeeeze.

The Cardinals will all bunk at a place called Santa Marta, aka Boys Town.

I cannot believe people (or pilgrims as the press is calling them) are waiting upwards of 12 hours in line to walk past the body. While I am sure many are true believers, many of them are just gawkers who are there just to be a part of the hoopla. So tacky with all these folks walking by and taking photos of the body.

And although Nancy Reagan, the Fellatio Queen of Hollywood, in its Golden Years, would crassly state upon His Holiness’s death, “He reminded me of my husband”, I believe President Reagan, had he been able, might have remarked, “He reminded us all of Providence Himself”.

I saw an interesting book called Wrestling with God & Men by Rabbi Stephen Greenberg which discusses sexuality as viewed by Judaism.

I haven't decided whether to buy it but the chapter I read seems to take a different view of homosexuality than the one held by most Rabbis.

Has anyone read it? Judaism being an older religion than Christianity, it would be interesting to know what prevailing views there are now among Jewish authorities, if indeed a single one is prevalent.

"Trembling Before G-d", a movie about gay and lesbian orthodox jews deals with the rabbinical interpretation of their behaviour ranging from outright condemnation to compassionate understanding, tho no outright "endorsements". I'd recommend it, tho I found the tone of some of the experts rather condescending.
As for the pope, I'd say the majority of the church, in the developing world has social justice issues first and foremost in their minds, rather than the (to me) tangential issues of married/women clergy.
The world *is* bigger than the US, Europe and Canada, yet you'd get the opposite impression from the Catholics they've been interviewing.

[quote]sportinlife:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dfwAggie99:
I saw an interesting book called Wrestling with God & Men by Rabbi Stephen Greenberg which discusses sexuality as viewed by Judaism.

I haven't decided whether to buy it but the chapter I read seems to take a different view of homosexuality than the one held by most Rabbis.

Has anyone read it? Judaism being an older religion than Christianity, it would be interesting to know what prevailing views there are now among Jewish authorities, if indeed a single one is prevalent. [/quote]I've not read that book, but I have read some of Greenbergs other writing. The important difference between Judaism and Catholocism is the very decentralized nature of Judaism as opposed to the Heirarchical nature of Catholocism. I've always told people who say things like, "I just can't be a part of an organized religion" that they should be Jewish because it's the most disorganized religion in the world.

As for different Popes bringing different priorities and even interpretations to the post, all organizations, even monolithic religious orgainzations, are run by human beings. As such, they are subject, even minimally, to the whims of those human beings which are universally different from person to person.

Now the wait's up to 24 hours. I'm not surprised; remember that members of the EU can travel across borders freely, and between Italy, France, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Ireland, the UK, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, western Ukraine, Lithuania, etc., you've got hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics who can fairly easily make day or two-day trips to Rome. Poland alone could provide enough people to pack Rome for days.

I saw LA's archbishop, cardinal Mahony, described in the NY TIMES as progressive--compared to whom, cardinally Lawless? Talk about relativity! And one of the worst potential candidates, it appears, is the archbishop of Lima, cardinal Cipriani Thorne, who's extremely right-wing and a member of Opus Dei. Before anyone slams me, let me just say, I went to Opus Dei sessions as a kid, and they were very, very doctrinaire. I doubt my parents even knew what was going on; they saw it, as I did, as an opportunity for a kid to take scale-model construction, drafting, and art classes at a low cost. I did tune out the theology pretty quickly.

Thanks to all the articles about "The Search for the New Pope," i now have the unfortunate image of a new show, Survivor: The Vatican.

Funny you should mention that. Always wanted to see it and just rented it before checking back here. Very good.

While watching NBC News, I saw someone identified as a "Vatican Expert" (what does that mean, exactly??) explain that the next Pope will have to be "as TV friendly" as John Paul II, which made me think of all this as something akin to "Vatican Idol." On a different program, the pundits were giving odds on various Cardinals being elected--somebody actually called Cardinal Dias from India a "dark horse, about a 40 to 1 shot." Is this how the selection of a Pope should be discussed? Get all these talking heads out of the hot sun.

~Adam

A Colombian artist has created a comic book in which the Pope dies and is reborn as a superhero. He has a special anti-Devil cape, but that's not all...

Chastity pants???
It's Superpope!

Yes indeed, they are. And focused on changing the world from the top down by recruiting the elite of society. Aside from service projects that are used as tools of recruitment, Opus Dei caters to its own needs and growth. The resultant stultifying atmosphere kills spontaneity and drains color and nuance from everything. Having an Opus Dei pope would set the Church back fifty years or more.

Another major conservative player in the elections (tho behind the scenes), is The Legionaries of Christ, whose founder is under investigation by the Vatican for charges of sexual molestation. At least one Legionary priest has appeared as a color commentator for Fox.

Now that humor is beginning to fray the shrouds, one of my LCR colleagues chimed in with this quip on the makeup of the House delegation to the Vatican: "Sending Nancy Pelosi to mourn at the funeral of the Pope in Rome is like sending Alan Keyes to preside over a gay marriage in Boston."

You like, FT? Thought so! wink

Huh? Pelosi is a lifelong Roman Catholic who's married to a Roman Catholic. Keyes isn't gay..."C3PO, the data do not compute...."

FT, Pelosi is at best a nominal Catholic, perhaps better styled a "Catholic of convenience." Her positions are about as in line with the Vatican's as Keyes' are with gays'. Capisce?

Interesting article in yesterday's USA Today about how far American Catholics differ from the rest of the world's Catholics in beliefs and such. Mostly it is the very predictable issues of birth control, right to die, women priests, priest marriage, etc. The Vatican is apparently very concerned. The article also made the point that an American Cardinal will never be considered for as Pope any time in the near future.

Mr. German,

Why so rough on Pelosi today?
Never mind, I think I know.

RZB, thanks for the "face time." Major correction, though: I'm not rough on Li'l Nancy today, but EVERYDAY!

"Derision Wins!

PS - And your own real name is??? :confused:

[ April 07, 2005, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: gmginsfo ]

Do you have some inside information on her? Do you know for a fact, for example, that she doesn't go to Mass every Sunday or that she has sex outside of her marriage or that she's had abortions?

Maybe it's that she practices her faith but, unlike the GodOP, doesn't want to force others to live by her religion's rules.

Actually, JIP, I do know for a fact that she "doesn't go to Mass every Sunday." Of the other two, which are secular, as well as equally stupid, questions, I know not.

Now you can go back to condemning people to Hell.

No capiscio. This is still logically incoherent. You're always arguing that not all gays think alike, so in fact Keyes very well may agree with some gays, including ones on this site. We are not a monolith. The pope was. Pelosi's beliefs, in fact, are closer in line with the majority of American Catholics than Keyes' are even within the GOP! I know you loathe Pelosi, but tell your friend to have fun at someone else's expense--a more outrageous presence at the funeral is born-again evangelical, hypocritical, greedy nutjob, war-mongering chickenhawk psycho Tom DeLay!!!

[ April 07, 2005, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Whoa, FT, not THERE'S a stretch; Keyes has been nothing BUT anti-gay in every respect I've ever heard him declaim on, and he's rejected every "outreach" effort I've ever heard of, although there may be a chance coincidence of beliefs, "like two ideas passing in the night," between him and some gays. Thus, since Pelosi may well accept some elements of Catholicism - baptisms, weddings and funerals come to mind, hence the cafeteria Catholic moniker - logical consistency is maintained. (Whew!)

But I didn't know that Dil-Lay was going too, so yes, his presence is even more offensive and hypocritical, because he's a Southern Baptist, many of whom make their living casting the RCC as a Satanic cult. But hey, it's a weekend in Rome at the taxpayers' expense, even if not everyone going will attend church there next Sunday!

PS: Guarda le parole! E "capisco," non "capiscio." Dove' il suo dizionario?

Thank you for another condescending, pompous post.

I figured you'd jump on this, so I didn't even try to change it ,but yes, I don't know Italian well. You're right--capisco->capire->capii-->capito.

Reporting from Rome...

On September 6, 1995, I had the privilege of meeting with the Holy Father at St. Peter's Basilica. I shook his hand and kissed the Fisherman's ring, while talking to him, thanking him for meeting with me. I had with me a Rosary given to me by two friends who asked me to have the Pontiff bless it, which he did. I then asked him to bless me as well. He did so in both Latin and English.

Of Polish descent myself, I spoke a little Polish to him, to which he responded with a smile. All the time the Vatican's official photographers captured all this in over a dozen beautiful pictures which to this day I occasionally peruse.

I met him 10 years ago; I wanted to do so again for the final time, to say good-bye in my own way. I don't expect everyone whom I meet or know to understand; it doesn't matter, because for me, traveling to Rome this week is something I wanted to do.

The line to pay respects to the Holy Father is just like the American news channels have explained. I was told by relatives back in the states about the news coverage of all this, and I surely don't disagree with the descriptions of the enormous crowd, a crowd of tens of thousands from all over the world here for one singular purpose, to pay their respects to a person whom they admired and loved.

It has been absolutely fascinating, truly remarkable, to witness all of this firsthand. I have been blessed to have met so many complete strangers, from folks from Poland to Ireland to Great Britain to Italy, it has been truly wonderful. From so many different parts of the world come so many different people, all here for the same reason, and it is this that binds us all together in some inexplicable way.

We've all shared stories of the Holy Father (though it wasn't always easy for those among us who couldn't speak English or Italian or...), but I was amazed how the people whom I met seemed in awe when I told them about my 1995 meeting. One woman even laughed when I told her that I was able to sit in the front seat of the "Popemobile" following my meeting with the Pontiff, but only after I was able to convince a Spanish Monsignor "watching over" the vehicle to permit me the brief opportunity to do so (it helped that I spoke Spanish).

People may say what they wish, of course, about all this, but for me, the rich history and traditions of the Roman Catholic Church that have been on display the past week only serve to solidify my own love for my Church and make me thankful for being a part of it. I am sure some may find this inexplicable, perhaps unbelievable, but they are not me and I am not them. All I have to be concerned about is what I am happy with, and this is it.

This is one Roman Catholic who has been deeply touched by the Holy Father's life--and death. Surprised I was not over his passing, for he has fought illness for some time, but I was still shocked, mainly because I didn't want him to leave. Just as I don't want my friends and relatives to pass away, I didn't want the Holy Father to do so, either. Alas, we are all human, with a finite existence here on Earth, and I have personally shed many tears that John Paul II's existence here has ended. To me, it truly does feel as if I've lost a member of my own family. I know that those here whom I have met also feel the same way.

From Vatican City, I extend best wishes to everyone here at Outsports. This truly is the Eternal City. I need to rest a bit now, even if it IS almost 10:00 a.m. here.

Regards...


Edited to correct typo.

[ April 08, 2005, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: MIB ]

I feel as if I lost my last grandparent. Thank you for sharing your experience. Thank you for also confirming my belief that there is still a lot of good in this world, and a lot of good people.

MIB - Thank you for such a wonderful report - both the firsthand experience and the underlying emotion. I found the Pope's televised funeral today very moving. The chants from the crowds outside wanting him to be proclaimed "John Paul the Great" actually put a lump in my throat.

Many world leaders don't agree with Vatican positions, but they attended the service anyway.

The Italian Parliament delegation sent at least a member for each party including the communists. And I assume they haven't positions in line with the Pope.

LOL - I was thinking more like "Catholic Idol: The Search for the New Pope"

Yeah...what he said.

On NOT mourning the pope

NJ

MIB: Your experiances are touching. It's nice that you have fond memories of the late JP2.

Myself, as a life long Anglican, (and was a choir boy in a High Anglican Cathedral), long lapsed, have a different view.

When I first heard of the Pope's death, and watching the coverage from Rome on both CNN and BBC World, I actually teared up for the man that had touched so many hundreds of millions of people.

Then I thought to myself. I was an ardent JP2 fan when he was first elevated to the Papacy. The work he did to free the peoples of Eastern Europe, and indirectly, the old Soviet Union, to me, ensured him a place in the ages.

And then there's the last 10 years of his life. WHether it was him speaking, or his minions creating the policy, it doesn't matter.

Here was a man, who called GLBT people "intrinsically disordered", "Incapable of receiving Gods grace", "ideology of evil", "destroyers of the family".

I asked myself if I was crying for the JP2 that I admired so many years ago, or the death of a Pope that started with so much promise, to end with so much bitterness.

I decided that I cried for the pope that was, not who he had become.

This September my husband and I will celebrate 25 years together.

I don't care what the RCC says. I prefer the line from the book The Lord Don't Mind.

"If it's love, the lord won't mind, cuz there's too much hate in this ole world already"

And I think Jesus would agree.

Uh huh...sure. Can't wait for your report "live" from the conclave.

My dear HornFan, I weep for your bitterness. Your heart is indeed hardened. I won't be here for the conclave. I will leave it up to the Holy Spirit to hopefully inspire the cardinals to choose a worthy successor, a good successor. I can only hope and pray.

Save your fake tears "judge" and get back to what I am sure is an overflowing docket in Chicago.

Did the Pope's un-embalmed carcus stink when you breezed by? Inquiring minds and all... :confused:

[ April 08, 2005, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: HornFan ]

Thanks, MM, and thank you to Lksimcoe for your opening sentiments. It is difficult for people to fully understand how others feel about certain things or persons. My feelings toward the Holy Father are due to several factors, as I mentioned above. Despite these feelings, I must admit I am not as religious as I ought to be, probably due to nothing but laziness--a horrible excuse, I know, yet I loved this man for many reasons, not the least of which was because as a Polish Catholic (4th generation, BTW), I felt a sense of pride, even if I'm obviously quite Americanized in that area.

I have been fortunate to have met athletes, presidents, congressmen & senators, and celebrities in my lifetime, but nothing--no one--to ME was as special as meeting the Holy Father. At St. Peter's. In the Eternal City.

It was my first time in Rome, and I saved the Vatican part of my trip for the last few days there. The sheer beauty of this tiny nation-state is beyond description to those who have not visited it. I wasn't even able to take in as much as I wanted, but I did see the parts most important to me: the Sistine Chapel, the tomb of St. Peter and the grottos below, and the hall of tapestries. Has anyone ever been down that one hallway that has the tapestry of Jesus? It will freak you out, I guarantee it!

I was told about this beforehand, how Jesus's eyes appear to be following you as you approach the hanging tapestry, then stare directly at you, then follow you as you walk by. I didn't believe this was really the case, but it was. As I said, it will freak you out if you haven't seen it.

Finally, on a beautiful late summer Wednesday morning, with hardly a cloud in the sky, I was privileged to be invited to sit among many cardinals and bishops--I can't help it, but I have always thought their scarlet garb is so cool--just to the left of the Pope's chair. As I turned to the left, there were the tens of thousands of people who gather each Wednesday morning for John Paul II's weekly audience.

The Holy Father spoke for over 2 1/2 hours in 10 different languages, including that day in Japanese. I was told by one cardinal that the Holy Father was fluent in several languages--9 or 10, if I remember correctly--and can read 50 others. Wow!

After he was finished, we were instructed on how to approach the Holy Father to meet with him. The person who was responsible for getting me in to meet the Pontiff was Fr. Ted Dziesko, who was a young, Polish priest that served as an associate pastor at St. Constance Parish in Chicago, where my great uncle was a pastor (he has since retired).

As I approached the Pontiff, I forgot half of what I was going to say; I got nervous. After all, what does one say to the Pope when given the privilege of meeting him? Nevertheless, I eventually was brought to him by Fr. Ted and Bishop Dziswisz, the pope's personal secretary. I reached out, shaking the Pontiff's hand and kissing his fisherman's ring. My first words were kind of babbling becuase I was obviously rather starstruck, but I do remember telling him, "Greetings from Chicago."

He responded by telling me in his accented voice, "Ah...Chicago. I pray for our brother Joseph. He is very sick." (He was referring to Joseph Cardinal Bernardin, who had just announced he had cancer. At that time, Bernardin did not know it was terminal. He found out a year later, of course.)

I continued the conversation, asking the Holy Father to bless the rosary I had, and I specifically asked him, "May I please have the Holy Father's special blessing?" He smiled and blessed me in Latin and English. I nodded and told him I thanked him, saying other things I wish to God I can remember. To say my head was spinning would be an understatement.

In closing, permit me to admit something many may find weird, I admit, but it's the truth: I was unable to personally see John Paul II when he visited Chicago in 1979. I told my friends and relatives that my single and most fervent desire in life was to meet Pope John Paul II. I guess many thought it was more of a dream, kind of like a "yeah, right" thing. When I found out in July 1995 that I had won a trip to Rome, after working for months to achieve this, I knew my "dream" was one step closer to reality. It was then that I worked with my great uncle Fr. Marty and his friend Fr. Ted to help make this dream come true.

It did. For that I shall forever be grateful, and nothing will ever be able to top that. Ever.

The Vatican announced that Cardinal Bernard Law would be the only American prelate to lead one of nine daily Masses for the pope during a mourning period that follows his funeral. You would think there could POSSIBLY be someone else they could have tapped.

Cardinal Law left Boston in disgrace more than two years ago, resigning his position as Boston's Roman Catholic archbishop after revelations that he secretly transferred sexually abusive priests from unknowing parish to unknowing parish.

Just more evidence the Catholic Church just doesn't get it. Maybe Cardinial Law will be the next Pope? Sounds like he was really tight with JPII.

While I do not wish to dwell on the negatives, this news is distressing. Law is the purest example of arrogance and corruption.

I read yesterday that the loathsome Robert Mugabe, fresh from his recent 'democratic' re-election in Zimbabwe, somehow avoided the EU travel sanctions against him and was able to attend the Pope's funeral. Apparently when Tony Blair saw that Mugabe was seated near him for the service, Blair promptly found another seat. But Prince Charles was taken off-guard when Mugabe reached over to shake his hand.

I received this article a few days ago from the Simon Wiesenthal Centre. Looks like John Paul has received high marks for his efforts to improve Catholic-Jewish relations.

A question:

Why does Italy have such a disproportionate number of cardinals when it doesn't have the same number or proportion of Roman Catholics as either Brazil, Mexico or the Philippines? Numerically the United States has more Catholics (65 million) than the entire population of Italy (58 million), which is less populous than either France (60 million) or Germany (whose population of 82 million is predominantly Catholic only in the southern and far western regions). I guess it's up to whoever is pope, and JPII did expand the ranks away from Italy, but I was just wonndering about this.

Two other likely candidates:

Cardinal Geraldo Agnelo Majella, the archbishop of Salvador da Bahia, and the Bishop Primate of Brazil.

Cardinal Wilfrid Fox Napier, the archbishop of Durban, South Africa.

[ April 09, 2005, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

FT, starting last Monday, the WSJournal's had a host of great articles about the Pope and his possible successors, specifically mentioning the Drang nach Suden in terms of worldwide RC numbers. From the list of potential candidates it listed, the Mexican and Indian impressed me most. Ratzinger I don't want in there at all. It'll be interesting to see what develops.

Speaking as a non-Catholic, I assume the disproportionate number of Italian popes is simply a reflection of the fact that Vatican City is surrounded by Italy. Also, it makes sense that the Pope is fluent in the Italian language so as to be able to communicate with Vatican employees and the local population. Thus any Pope wanna-bes probably should be able to speak Italian. But the pool of candidates outside of Italy who meet that criterion would be rather limited (unlike more widely-spoken languages which also have significant numbers of Catholics, namely Spanish, English or French). And of course there is the element of tradition, the Catholic church having (my opinion only) an almost unhealthy attachment to tradition in so many ways.

Apparently almost 20% of the popes throughout history were non-Italian (I'm surprised the figure is even that high). But until Karol/John Paul II took office in 1978, it had been over 400 years since the previous non-Italian, Adrian VI of the Netherlands.

On the one hand, in the interests of diversity it would be nice to see another Pope from outside Italy, and outside Europe for that matter (after all, Brazil is the largest Catholic country in the world). On the other hand, I think it's a safe bet that any papal candidates from Latin America or from Africa are likely to hold views that are even more conservative than those from Europe.

At the risk of being disrespectful, the latest betting is

Ratzinger GER 4.9/1
Hummes BRZ 8/1
Martini ITA 8.4/1
Arinze NGA 9.5/1
Tettamanzi ITA 10.5/1
Lustiger FRA 11.5/1
Madariaga HON 14.5/1

26/1 bar

[ April 14, 2005, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: jamesw ]