Separate the message from the messenger: was Rush Limbaugh correct in his assessment of Donovan McNabb as over-rated and somewhat mediocre? Here's an article from leftie Slate, written by sportswriter Allen Barra, titled: \"Rush Limbaugh Was Right\".

Barra compares McNabb to Tampa Bay's Brad Johnson -- generally acknowledged to be a middle-tier quarterback -- and finds the comparison apt expcet in two regards: McNabb has more rushing yards (but more sacks) and Johnson has a Super Bowl ring. The Eagles offense has been middle-of-the-pack with McNabb, yet the defense stellar, yet for some reason, McNabb is labelled a star. (And the article doesn't even get to the point about how good McNabb is when the team brings in A.J. Feeley and doesn't miss a beat.)

Apparently McNabb's highly offended that someone would think that he's less than a superstar ... but Barra's article makes the point that he is, truly, less than a superstar.

I think McNabb, like alot of us, was offended not that someone thought he was overrated, but that someone thought he was overrated because he is black.

Anyway, yes I think he is overrated. I think he's better than mediocre, especially in this era of less than stellar QBing, but he's not an elite QB either.

[ October 03, 2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

Clearly the QB is almost always labeled a star, and defenses rarely get the credit they should, so that criticism could be warranted - I don't know enough about McNabb to say. But I would say I don't think you can entirely blame a quarterback for too many sacks - if the offensive line isn't holding, there is only so many times the QB can get away with the lame incomplete pass to prevent the sack.

I'm not ready to declare him overrated yet. I think it could end up as a repeat of Randall Cunningham: talented player, bad offensive coaching/scheme. Of course, Randall was something of a head case as well, but on the other hand Donovan has mediocre receivers. Look how Cunningham played when he was throwing to the Vikings' receiver corps.

Barra says in his article:
Since when is less than one yard per pass "significant"? And since when do you place such blame on a quarterback for sacks? Perhaps it's a reflection on the offensive line or the playcalling as well.

Besides, the fact that he agrees with Limbaugh's point regarding the media shows that he's an idiot as well.

I agree. Also, McNabb won a playoff game with a broken ankle, didn't he? And doesn't Philadelphia, with an admittedly thin offensive corps, a so-so primary RB, and less talented receivers than many teams (Vikings, Rams, 49ers, etc.) have a WINNING record under McNabb? To slam McNabb because he was black was offensive; to say he may be overrated is a moot issue, and worthy of debate. I say this: if McNabb had the kind of talent surrounding him that some other QBs have had, and an excellent offensive coordinator, he'd have won the Super Bowl by now. Maybe he isn't a Bret Favre or Kurt Warner (before his deal with Satan wore off and he turned into a bad version of Ryan Leaf), but he has considerable talent and I would love, if I were a NFL player, to have him QB'ing my team. And by the way, no one has mentioned the oft-injured Steve McNair, who I think is damned good, even though he gets banged up so often I think they're going to have to wheel him out on a gurney in a few years. New Orleans's QB, Aaron Brooks, also is very good--and he's African-American. Even if Michael Vick had zero talent, I'd want him...though for more than just football!

Buwahaha! Did you see where Warner's lesbian wife--oh stop it, she's a dyke--issued a play-him-or-trade-him demand the other day? Nice.

I think the QB position has so much focus put on it that, like comments above indicate, it's often overlooked how truly important the other 10 guys on offense are. Look at Drew Bledsoe: he's a superb QB, IMHO, but without a good running back, he presses, throws questionable balls etc.

I love Brad Johnson as a lust object, but I think he's a total stiff as a QB. But he, or any of his backers, will wave that SB ring in my face and claim otherwise.

That's the working theory. The same was said about Randall Cunningham when he was here.

The regular season game against Arizona last year was the day he was hurt. He could hardly move but played all day and had an excellent game. They then found the break afterwards. The playoff game against Atlanta, they won but his numbers weren't exceptional.

I echo what Jim Allen said: Buwahaha!

Anyone can take statistics to make their case it just depends on which ones you choose. I think Donovan is not a great QB yet, but he is not mediocre either.

As far as the defense being the only reason the Eagles won so many games last year, keep in mind they scored a franchise record 415 points. Donovan played in 10 games for 272 points, I wouldn't say that is was shabby.

Even though people complain he runs alot, that is part of the game and it resulted in the six touchdowns he made last year. As far as I am concerned the more weapons you have at your disposal the better it is.

Steve McNair is probably the best QB working in football today, given that Favre has lost a step and the severely over-rated, over-exposed Peyton Manning is too soft to win a championship. Michael Vick has an unlimited ceiling -- although if he doesn't improve his personal conditioning he's going to be the football version of Ken Griffey Jr. (i.e., great career, but not relative to what might have been). So why would you sandwich, in between those two studs, a mention of the thoroughly incompetent and useless Aaron Brooks?

Aaron Brooks: a bad QB stuck on an even worse team. Give a plug to the under-rated Daunte Culpepper instead. After all, that Viking offense is more than jut Randy Moss: someone's throwing those missiles to him, y'know. Even Jeff Blake is more worthy of a mention than Brooks. Or, best yet, my two favorite African-American quarterbacks in the NFL: Hines Ward and Antwaan Randle-El of the Steelers (who's having the career Eric Crouch could've had if he weren't such a crybaby) when Cowher gets creative.

Aaron Brooks??

Overrated or not, here's hoping that he throws 5 interceptions on Sunday.

Five is good but I'd settle for 6.

Well, overrated or not, Donovan WON TODAY! I think the guy is talented, and at times very good. He's not one of the very best (yet, maybe never), but I still think if he had a better surrounding cast, he'd win more games.

Aaron Brooks has an above average QB rating this year--it's around 81 or so, and last year he really improved, throwing over 20 TDs and 3,000 passing yards with only 15 interceptions. His rating was 80 or so. Again, above average. I'd rather have him as a QB than Kerry Collins.

Speaking of Warner and his wife, I read where St. Louis fans were blasting them both! One commentator there basically questioned whether Warner's success was Faustian; I'm not kidding, he literally broached the issue of a deal with Satan! I doubt that, but it is strange that the man was SO extraordinary, and now can't throw passes or hold onto the ball anymore. I think the concussions and the repeated thumb injuries have doomed him. The problem is that the Rams lose in salary cap terms, I think, if they trade him. They could win with Bulger (and Martz on meds), especially if they find a way to replace their depleted linebacking corps and get some consistent offensive linemen. Even Bulger is going to end up a headcase if the Rams can't protect him any better. Outside of the WR ranks and Orlando Pace, they're basically a different team from the Super Bowl squads of a few years ago.

Jeff Blake???

[ October 05, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Exactly. Put it this way: When was the last time you heard anyone say that Kurt Warner, for example, is overrated because he is white? Or that he gets breaks because somebody wants to see white quarterbacks do well? :confused:

The problem is the assumption that mediocrity (real or alleged) among members of one race or another is related to their being members of that race, but that mediocrity among members of another race is "just mediocrity" with no racial connection.

It's like when people say they "can't find qualified minorities" for a position or contract. The statement is based on an assumption that all white people, especially those currently on the payroll, are inherently competent and qualified. As a white person who's worked with far more whites than non-whites for more than 20 years, I can assure you that this is not the case. eek!

[ October 06, 2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: danimal ]

I'm confused ( :confused: ), too, because, in his brief three-year comet-like career, Kurt Warner was never remotely close to being over-rated. He was the key component of the Greatest Show on Turf. He led his team to one Super Bowl win and a second Super Bowl appearance ... being the quarterback in the two most exciting Super Bowls ever. Bad bad example for you to choose.

On the other hand ... I have frequently wondered out loud if the two most over-rated players of the last decade aren't over-rated because of their race. I am referring to white guys Jason Sehorn and Jeremy Shockey of the N.Y. Giants. I think they get a tremendous amount of media exposure because they are (relatively) telegenic white guys playing in New York. You can disagree with me, but I think I've got the right to an opinion (which I've stated on this Board, among other places) that those two are over-rated because they are white.

So why is it a hate crime (oh, I'm sorry, "racially insensitive") to wonder the same thing about an African-American who is, at best, at about the 60th percentile among starting NFL QB's? I actually do think that the point that McNabb is over-rated because he is black is ridiculous because the most under-rated QB in the league is black: Steve McNair. McNair is not a camera whore, isn't very quick with the quotes, and thus is not crammed down out throats by the sports media. For whatever reason, McNabb and Peyton Manning are seriously over-exposed for QB's of their limited resumes.

I thought Limbaugh's comment about McNabb was stupid for that reason. But ESPN's reaction was even worse. They hired Rush Limbaugh and they had to get rid of him as soon as they found out he was: Rush Limbaugh! Then the ESPN crew falls all over themselves apologizing to McNabb, which kinda sorta lent some credence to Limbaugh's opinion, treating McNabb as some sort of Royal Highness about whom no criticism may properly be voiced.

He's not. McNabb is a good QB. He's inarguably tough. He's young and he likely will get. But, in my opinion, he's not a top-tier QB right now. But he's a better QB than Sehorn is a DB.

If you mean Kurt Warner in the Super Bowl, yeah. If you mean Kurt Warner now ... I think some other posters in this topic might differ. Besides, the Religious Right has made him such a poster boy of family whatever that it's hard to talk about him based strictly on his performance.

And I don't doubt that some players (especially the ones you mentioned) do get a free pass or two because they're white ... but does anyone besides you come out and say so? It's more of a double standard issue than a sensitivity issue -- not on your part (on the contrary, your examples indicate you're saying what you mean and not using a smokescreen), but on the part of people who think the way Limbaugh does and make stupid comments like his every day.

And yeah, ESPN should have known better. If they want "controversy" they should at least get somebody who knows what the hell he's talking about.

And don't get me started, danimal, on the white guy affirmative action in the NBA. It's created work for slow-footed Caucasian-Americans from Danny Ainge to Bryce Drew.

(If I spent some time on google, I believe I'd find some choice quotes from Charles Barkley on this subject. And if memory serves me right, he may have once gotten pilloried in the media for calling attention to this bit of obviousness. But that's a whole 'nuther thread.)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charlie in the Trees:
[QB] Separate the message from the messenger: was Rush Limbaugh correct in his assessment of Donovan McNabb as over-rated and somewhat mediocre?

It occured to me watching this weekend's football games and the Monday Night game that Donovan McNabb is overEXPOSED. My God, how many commercials has this guy done? Is that how he spent his off season?

I always thought this guy was an overrated thrower with gifted feet, and this year he may prove me right. I am not a racist. I just don't believe this guy is this great of a QB. I will agree that he has weak receivers, but some of his throws...??? His receivers can't take the blame for those. Philly's window of opportunity ended against Tampa Bay last year. Time to rebuild.

Go Chief's, 7-0 baby. A win's a win!

McNabb's thunb is hurt. He also has a hip and ankle injury. So he's slow at running, and cant grip the ball right now.

His problem is that he's too much of a warrior and wont come out.. hence he looks like shit, he throws like shit. Fatty does not have the balls to pull him out of the game. SO you get 9-24 games.

Now if you have top notch WR's you can have an off throw that they still can make a play on... but when you have...

Pinky, thrash, and hollywood mitch... who cant do those things, you are pretty much screwed....

Hell it's not like chad lewis didnt turn 50 overnight... i mean he's become the king of the dive catch being wide open.. the wind knocks him over...

To now call dmac "over-rated" is foolish because... none of us were bitching when he went to the nfc champ game the last 2 years... or the playoffs the year before. Or the fact that when he started the eagles became winners. There is no QB in the NFL that could single handidly take his team to the SB. You need a solid D and a few playmakers on O to do that.

With that said, he SHOULD take a seat for a few games and get fricking healthy, then i wont have anything to bitch about....

[ October 21, 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: m1 ]

Hey, leave Todd "The God" MacCulloch out of this!

"Racial profiling" by position works both ways: it's assumed that white guys are too slow to be defensive backs. John Lynch is a good counter-example, but I don't think Jason Seahorn is one; he's just a mediocre player wildly over-hyped because he's purty and plays in the New York area.

Offensive lineman is another position that had/has assumptions: due to the complex blocking schemes, it was long seen as an "intelligent" position, i.e. a white position. That's changed in the last 10-15 years though.

As much as McNabb wnats to play hurt, and as much as Reid stands behind "his man" who he chose and promoted a huge salary for, Andy Reid is going to have a difficult time justifying keeping McNabb in there much longer the way things are going.
The Limbaugh flack has just made the decision that much harder. It's not just the media who love McNabb (more because he's a darn nice guy than because he's black) but he has a devoted following here in Philly. When the other biggest sport hero is Allen Iverson, I can understand why so many people want a positive role model instead.

We know that Reid won't sit McNabb the next game unless he is crippled. So the next two games against weaker opponents are the only opportunity for McNabb to get his confidence back.

If they bring in the backup QBs against the weaker opponents and they do well, then you really have a dilemma about bringing McNabb back against the stronger opponents.

If playing the Jets and Atlanta get McNabb going then great, otherwise we can toss in towel at that point.

Is McNabb Overrated and Mediocre?

yes
and
yes

Why doesn't Steve McNair get the ratings he deserves???? He is having another great year.Whats the deal? :mad: