God save America from free-speech suppressors -- many of whom are sports fans:

Manhattanville's Toni Smith draws fire for turning from flag in protest

For those of you who are registered with the NY Times, Toni has an answer for some of her hyperbolic detractors: "I doubt Saddam Hussein is watching me right now."

Has this been getting covered on ESPN or Fox Sports?

I heard a brief mention of this when I was going to bed the other night. The host on the sports-talk station had just started his shift and mentioned how he was listening to the show just before his, and how the callers were saying things like "if she did that and I was there, I'd throw a battery at her" and so on. It's amazing how stupid some people can be.

Battery throwing? you would think the st louis cards were in town or something.....

They were talking about this on the radio out here also... The chic has to realize that some folks will say, good job.. do what you want... but i you are making that strong of a point, you have to expect to have people waving flags at you ect.. but really, is what she does the proper place to make a political statement like that? infront of a bunch of rowdy drunk college students..

then again, you have to get people to watch womens basketball somehow, now dont you? i'm sure their attendance has skyrocketed....

I think she's a brave girl, and one who obviously cares about her country and the issues that it faces. And yes, I can see why some people would be offended by her actions.

But as she said, "Patriotism can be shown in many ways, but those who choose to do so by saluting the flag should recognize that the American flag stands for individuality and freedom. Therefore, any true patriot must acknowledge and respect my right to be different."

I think this little girl is idealistic and disrespectful of all those who have given their life fighting for her life and her freedom. She is young and has yet to learn what freedom really is and what the Flag of the United States of America means. Everyone is entitled to an opinion; this is mine.

If you like her protest or not... that is open to debate, however.... she did this while her team was playing a military academy and they distributed flags... big scene...

She walked right into the hornets nest there... how would you expect the military school to react? who's the bad guy? her for making the prostest, or doing it knowing she will literally offend everyone in that building? they have no right to protest right back at her?

I sincerely hope that not one American in war has ever given his/her life simply for a piece of cloth. The flag may be a symbol of our country, but it is the ideals of this country that much be protected. As more and more people point to the flag as somehow sacred, the less inclined I am to salute it.

It's her right to do what she wishes with the flag or salute the flag, i just dont know if going into a military academy and doing it is very wise.

Thank you for the toilet paper
But your flag's meaningless to me
Look around, we're all people
Who needs countries anyways?

Dead Kennedys: Stars and Stripes of Corruption

I wish there were more people willing to stand up for what they believed in.

Some may think it's a bad idea for her to do that at a military academy, but if your protest is against war, what better place is there to do it?

Many great people have expressed their views publicly and endured the kind of harassment this woman is subjected to. Today is the last day of Black History Month which is, in part, a celebration of those whose fight for freedom of expression sometimes cost them their lives.

I admire her greatly.

No one says she shouldnt, but those who wave the flag right back at her should also be respected.

Little girl? I think what she did was one of the most mature responses to Baby Bush's war that I've seen.

One of the freedoms that people died for was freedom of expression. It's looks to me like she understands that pretty well.

People didn't die so we could all march lock step with those leading our country into another war in which more of our children are going to die.

well of course she is the best, she doesnt like bush, doesnt make it anymore stupid to piss off everyone in the place at the military school.

More power to her. At least she's not crapping on the flag and the ideas of free speech and expression like many of the folks who want to hurt her. I think she deserves a citation or medal of freedom.

Our ancestors did not fight to make the United States a mono-party, corporate fascist state. They defeated several of those, along with monarchies, dictatorships, and assorted other awful regimes. Let's never forget that.

She certainly has the right to turn away from the flag if she so chooses. But a citation or medal of freedom? :confused:

She is a disgrace in my opinion...send her to the Middle East and let her see how it is there.

Where she'd get essentially the same treatment she's being subjected to by our superpatriot fellow citizens. Disagree with the government and you are a traitor. Exercise a freedom to expression that thousands of soldiers died to preserve and you are unAmerican. God Bless America!

P.S.: Has the Administration said when the mandatory goose-stepping courses begin?

you needed to sign up for the goose-stepping classes last week, did you forget?

I think she is wrong & VERY naive BUT - even though I am a conservative I have to say "she has the right to do it". Peaceful protest IS allowed. Those who don't agree should just ignore her in my opinion because otherwise she gets her publicity & becomes a hero. The bottom line: I can't expect EVERYONE to agree with MY viewpoints can I ?

Though I find her means of protest personally distasteful, I absolutely support her right to do so. The fact that her team was playing a military academy is irrelevant.

Frank DeFord went on-and-on-and-on on NPR the other morning saying that she had to give up her individuality once she put on the uniform of her team, but that's an argument that's better made for a military member. Teams are made up of individuals. As long as she is still playing her little tushie off, she has a right to register her protest in a respectful, dignified manner. At least she's not raising her fist a la the Black Power salutes of the 1968 Mexico City Olympics.

In a word, whatever.

gj

I agree that she has every right to express her opinion. I question her choice of tactics. I know that team loyalty is probably small potatoes compared to freedom of speech but why do this in such a way as to distract fellow team members from their endeavor. They, after all joined the team, with all the effort that entails, to compete. Now, they too must pay the price for this exercise in free speech. Her views are devalued IMO because she doesn't want to assume the cost of expressing them but expects others to do so.

Why not quit the team on principle and stand outside the facility and express your views to fans as they arrive?

Anyone ever heard the saying... NO I IN TEAM... She's selfish... Agree/Disagree with what she does, but you must admit me caused the entire team to suffer cause of her actions. Because SHE felt that something was wrong, she took a stand and was shunned by the fans... the team was also shunned and it turned into a zoo... Thats not part of being a TEAM... If you want to be on a team, you give up your individual freedoms for the good of everyone... well unless you're name is kobe...

Isn't asking a student to quit a team on principle a bit like asking them to demand a transfer on their job on principle.

Team sports is a pretty important part of the learning experience, just like Social Studies where she may have learned the principle she was expressing.

Her protest was peaceful. Why is that so bad?

or George Washington.

[ March 06, 2003, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

If she wishes to march and protest that is fine... i just think it's a completely valid point that when she stepps on the court, she does what is best for the TEAM and not just her on personal agenda...

If i tune into a basketball game, i'm watching to see them play... I could give a rats azz what allen iverson thinks about the war... go out and play basketball... Protest on your own time, the school gave you a scholarship to play basketball... instead she turned her little protest into a zoo and sideshow for her team. It's a distraction from the team and took something away from their playing abilities... thats called selfish... altho, it was womens basketball so there's not all that athletic ability there in the first place.

Not to mention that it is very melodramatic as well and there undoubtedly more concrete and effective ways to lodge a protest that are less disruptive to her team and her as a person. I think she is a bit of a martyr. But if she wants to do it, then have at it toots.

It's been reported all over that her protest was specifically against violence and the senseless deaths that would occur with war. She grew up with way too many people dying around her and at too young of an age. I say f**k basketball; her stance and her views about excessive violence are FAR more important. If her team and the fans aren't discerning or smart to understand what she's saying, or to consider that she can be FOR peace even while supporting America's military; than they do indeed have something to learn. Peaceful protesters do not deserve such condemnation from anyone - it's our right as an American to express our feelings. It doesn't mean we're anti-Military; it just means peace sometimes needs standing up for...just as war sometimes does. I support her right to make her statement. I support doing everything possible to deal with Saddam without war - before bombing the hell out of him.

And when the hell did sports in America become about the team? Puhleezzze. Just watch any pro-sport, read the headlines, and soon you realize that what's being taught in America is all about the individual; everyone wants to be "the man." America is all about the individual; whether that's valuable or not is highly debatable.
And there's nothing uglier than when a gym or stadium full of individuals turn into a crowd and lose all ability to think for themselves. Riots, etc., always seem to come from this kind of losing one's ability to judge a situation rationally. She made her statement against violence...let her be. I don't believe in silencing opinions that are communicated in a peaceful civil manner.

Interesting commentary about this in the Boston Globe.

Athletes' Protests Draw Scorn from Coaches

UConn women's basketball coach Geno Auriemma implied that he would kick off the team anyone who did something like this. The author makes what I feel is a valid point with regard to the "not the proper place to protest" & "athletic event is not a political forum" arguments. Attendees at sporting events are requested to stand at attention while the national anthem is played & the pledge of allegiance is recited. Athletes are forced to wear little American flag lapels every time they take to the court. These ARE political statements, coerced political statements, especially in a time of imminent war, & anyone should be free to express his/her dissent in a peaceful & non-disruptive manner.

[ March 07, 2003, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: Billy ]

Granted, the nature of her protest has been well publicized after the fact. Nevertheless, she turned her back on the flag during the playing of the national anthem. Did she think someone was going to rush out and hand her a microphone so she could explain her actions to the crowd? The flag, after all, isn’t a symbol of Bush administration policy toward Iraq. It symbolizes the nation, the very people sitting in the stands. They aren’t idiots. Their reaction was quite understandably negative. Her protest was poorly thought out. When you take an unpopular stand, or appear to, you’re going to pay the price. What makes you think others don’t have a right to condemn her for her views? Hopefully she’s learned a valuable lesson about free speech. The “free” part refers to your right to say it, not to the fact that there may not be a price to be paid.

“I say f**k basketball; her stance and her views about excessive violence are FAR more important.”

So apparently does she, and f**k my teammates, f**k my coaches, f**k the school, f**k the people in the stands, f**k the town, f**k America and f**k everyone else but me! My stance and my views are FAR more important.

Great, lovely sentiment, thanks for sharing.

“I support her right to make her statement.”

I believe everyone posting to this thread does. The question is whether her approach was appropriate in light of the effect it had on others who were unwittingly involved without their consent, and whether it was at all effective or only served to turn people against her cause and harden their views.

“And when the hell did sports in America become about the team? Puhleezzze. Just watch any pro-sport, read the headlines, and soon you realize that what's being taught in America is all about the individual; everyone wants to be "the man.”

So, because this negative development in American sports culture helps to justify her tactics we should all just accept it as OK? Professional sports is all about me, me, me and she’s learned that lesson well and isn’t that just great? Where are you going with this? Seems like you’re feeding peanuts to this unfortunate phenomenon instead of trying to starve it.

“And there's nothing uglier than when a gym or stadium full of individuals turn into a crowd and lose all ability to think for themselves.”

Well, there’s Anna Nicole Smith. But seriously, while I agree that it was foolish to engage in such a provocative act in a crowd setting, the assumption here seems to be that since they disagreed with the form and/or nature of her protest they were an ugly mob incapable of thinking for themselves. They saw what she did, they thought about it, disagreed and were in fact offended and they let her know it. If you can’t stand the heat….

Anyone who wants to skip the Pledge or national anthem is certainly free to do so. I suggest taking the opportunity, while everyone else is busy, to hit the restroom or get a hot dog. This would be totally peaceful and non-disruptive.

As for the uniform thing, part of the agreement when you decide to play with the team involves wearing the approved uniform. Members of the Cleveland Indians who don't like the offensive Native American caricature that is incorporated into the uniform design, are nevertheless contractually obligated to wear it. If you don't like the uniform, then you don't sign the contract. You start your own team and design your own uniforms.

Oops . . . botched the quote block feature.

[ March 07, 2003, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Billy ]

With regard to the first point, that wouldn't be making a statement, which is the right of every individual. It would be like France & Russia abstaining rather than vetoing the Security Council resolution. Or a defendant pleading nolo contendere as opposed to not guilty in the courtroom.

With regard to the second point, I don't think this analogy really applies, and in any case it is purely hypothetical. My memory about it is faded, but I recall a case during the Gulf War of 1991 in which a basketball player from Seton Hall refused to play with the American flag lapel on his uniform. I don't think they could have legally revoked his scholarship over this.

[ March 07, 2003, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Billy ]

i support anyone's right to do what she did, but i still think it was disgraceful and irreverent to the *princicples* that this country is built upon.

The flag is a symbol of the ideals and principles that are the foundation of the country that we all participate in and take advantage of. By turning her back on the flag she was not protesting policies or ideas of fleeting presidents and administrations but rather was turning her back on the symbol of the very freedoms enshrined in the consitution and bill of rights that *allowed* her to turn her back? it's a catch 22, sure she had the right to do it but why mock the right that gives you the right to mock it? If you disagree with a certain federal law or policy or president, write them, protest it with a sign, fight to overturn it. but don't turn your back on the symbol of your very freedoms. The flag does not stand for george bush, it does not even stand for every law or action of this nation over history, it stands for the founding ideals which we all continue to *try* to promulgate into our society. a society in which we all participate. she should have worn a button criticizing bush, or taken some other action. turning your back on the flag is turning your back on the constitution and bill of rights. many of us do not particularly like certain chapters or sentences in the book that is the USA, but overall we mostly all agree (unless we are against democracy and freedom) that the overall theme of the united states over history is something we believe in. she certainly has the right to protest, but i think doing it the way she did it was disgraceful to herself and to her school and to the principles of her country. instead of making bush and a war look bad she has made herself and many others look bad.

Torgauer - It would be helpful if you read and actually understand other postings before writing your own already formed and sealed ideas. But, as you said, thanks for sharing. If you and others are so easily threatened by one lady's choice to not sing the national anthem, then indeed you are part of a "crowd" mentality.

Luckily, her stance has now drawn attention to peace efforts and a stand against violence. That coaches and fans are disturbed and threatened by this just shows how easily people need to tow the line. Perhaps she'll be arrested just like the guy in the mall who wore a peace T-shirt.

Does anyone really go to a sporting event hoping to see a "political statement"... What better place to make a political statement than at a sporting event infront of opposing fans/players...

and a violation of the flag code to boot. What, you thought I wouldn't know that?

From the article you linked:

>>
....
Oklahoma women's coach Sherri Coale said, ''We have an American flag on our uniform. ... I think perhaps the only workable solution would be for her to remain in the locker room.''

Oklahoma men's coach Kelvin Sampson said, ''When they represent the university, then it's not the right place'' to protest.

Connecticut coach Geno Auriemma said, ''It's disrespectful and, as a coach, I would have the right not to have that person on the team.''
....
<<

But, http://www.usflag.org/us.code36.html says:

>>
UNITED STATES CODE
TITLE 36
CHAPTER 10

....
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
....
<<

That's right, every time you see a US flag embroidered or sewn on a uniform, you see a violation of the US Code. And those flags at the Chevrolet, Ford, and Toyota dealerships? Uh-oh.

I report. You decide.

[ March 07, 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]

Well said, Hoosier....while I equally support her right to express her views IN THE PROPER FORUM, the mere fact that she is involving her teammates and coaches in her individual protest is in very poor judgement....if Toni Smith chooses to demonstrate and vocalize her opposition to any war that we may be involved in or any decision made by our President, so be it -- but for her to turn an amateur sporting event into a personal crusade and debacle that has absolutely nothing to do with the collegiate sport that she has chosen to participate in should not be tolerated by her coaches, teammates, opponents, or fans, all of whom have rightfully expressed strong opposition to her inappropriately timed demonstrations.

What is particularly mind boggling and hypocritical to me is the fact that she is consciously tarnishing the flag, which is the very symbol that stands for her right to voice her individual opinions that she so clearly cherishes....it appears as if Smith has taken for granted the freedoms and privileges in this country that provide her the ability to express opinions that are contrary to what our government advocates....perhaps Toni needs to visit one of many third-world countries and see how much "freedom" their citizens have and what their punishment would be if they attempted to voice similar anti-establishment sentiments -- and THEN upon returning to the U.S. and recognizing the countless individual freedoms that she has benefited from her entire life (and undoubtedly is still benefiting from today, even in the midst of her anti-American protests) perhaps her decisions on how and when her demonstrations should be held would be vastly different....to reiterate, I support 100% anyone's right to peacefully demonstrate their opposition to any war, but don't show your lack of intelligence and maturity by "burning" our own flag, which provides you the privilege to protest and express differing views in the first place.

Among the many valid statements made by collegiate coaches (of BOTH mens and womens teams) throughout the country during the past ten days IMHO Purdue coach Gene Keady summed it up perfectly when he stated, "If somebody has a problem in the United States with the way we do things, maybe they shouldn't be here."

If you think your rights and freedoms are bad HERE, Toni, try living in almost any country in the Middle East (and many other continents worldwide, for that matter) where the overwhelming majority of their citizens would do virtually ANYTHING to live in the U.S., or at the very least be given the rights and freedoms that far too many Americans take for granted on a daily basis.

[ March 07, 2003, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: gamecock ]

I thought that's why they had elections, Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia notwithstanding.

I can't believe the ranting and bullying going on over this woman.

Gamecock: the Purdue coach's quote: "If somebody
has a problem in the United States with the way we do things, maybe they shouldn't be here."

...is exactly the kind of tow the line statement that the Bush administration might use in order to shut out opposition. In America we're actually free to express our opinions, whether their popular or not, without fear of being expelled, or murdered.

How can so many of you be so devoid of compassion for what this woman has been through and what she was trying to say? She had something like seven friends murdered during just last year. She was purposely trying to call attention to the needless violence that goes every day in America. But some of you numbskulls repeatedly choose to ignore that and stand on your soapboxes ranting about freedoms and flag laws. Stop jerking yourselves and pay attention to what she's actually saying. Perhaps she chose the wrong place to make her call for help but the least any intelligent person can do is see it for what it really was: a tormented lady who's seen too much death desperately trying to reach out and say "Help, stop this violence."

Maybe the fact that she's from an underpriviledged background has something to do with her message being ignored and convuluted. I don't know.

It's pathetic that people are saying things like "if you don't like how things are done, you can leave." Well, I say "F*** you" to them. As Americans, we pay taxes, we vote, and we will tell you what we think. And if you don't like it, you can run home and tell everyone how unpatriotic we are...

[ March 08, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Bryan ]

I thought i saw her on espn and she was a little white girl?

Millions of white people in America are poor, struggle to get by, kill each other and get killed in drug crimes, and have a very hard time just making it to 30. They're the majority in this country: POOR AND WORKING CLASS WHITE PEOPLE. Whole states consist mainly of them: Washington State, Oregon, Vermont, Montana, West Virginia, Utah, etc. Only "Cops" shows you glimpses of them....

So do you also feel when people fly Confederate flags, which were raised in revolt against our American flag, that the \"Stars and Bars\" also \"tarnish[es]...the very symbol that stands for her right to voice her individual opinions that she so clearly cherishes....\"

Excuse me, but it is NOT the flag that guarantees these privileges, it is the U.S. Constitution, which was defended by American patriots in a war against an oppressive King. The Americans won the war with the support of the French. Our constitution has inspired the constitutions of revolutionary France (1789), Mexico, Brazil, South Africa, the Phillipines, post-war Japan, post-Nazi Federal Germany, and numerous other nations. It is our Constitution that guarantees Toni Smith these freedoms, and our Constitution that allows Americans to dissent against laws and positions that they find unfair or undemocratic.

The sentiments on this board that would enforce ideological conformity and blind worship of abstract symbols and material objects would fit quite well in Mussolin's Italy, Stalin's Russia, Honecker's East Germany, or the Afghanistan run by the Taliban, which pResident Bush defeated just two years ago, lest we not forget about extremist governments and the violent suppression of dissent, women, and free speech.

I can.

It's amazing to me that people keep saying it's the wrong forum for a protest. If you want to express an opinion, what better place to express it than somewhere where people will see it?

This is why at the political conventions and similar gatherings, the local authorities now set up official "protest zones" far away from the convention site--in order to stifle the protest. If the politicians don't see it, they can go on thinking that they're doing a wonderful job and everyone's happy.

The fact that people are still talking about her "act of defiance" leads me to believe that hers was one of the most effective anti-war protests we've seen in a while. She said more in her moment of silence than did last week's scripted primetime Presidential address. Whether you agree with her or not, you've got to give her her props for efficiency!

because she's been through a lot of loss and pain in the past we have to support or not criticize *everything* she says and does? Please... she has to grow up too... we all have to deal with pain and loss in life, and not everyone who has lost people due to needless violence has chosent to take it out on a symbol of freedom and democracy. The flag is a symbol of freedom and democracy just as would be a piece of paper with the constitution printed on it. If someone burned that it would be the same... absolutely legal but disgraceful. i stand by what i said and what the vast majority of americans believe which is that flag desecration and outspokenness against any symbol or administration or law should absolutely be legal. But there are myriad ways of protesting and making statements along a vast scope of tact and some are tactful and intelligent and others are disgraceful and probably do more harm to your cause than good. Just because she's drawn attention to herself does not mean she's advanced her message. In fact, i'd wager to say she's really only solidified opinions by people on both sides rather than opened any new ears or hearts to her point of view, whether it be on war or on urban violence in America. Just as i'd be against any law or administration forcing citizens of this country to blindly support their government or salute their flag, i would also be very much against the idea that all of us have to somehow see this girls actions as "noble" or "brave" or even "intelligent". I feel for someone who has been hurt and devastated by violence, but that does not mean i have to agree with or support or sit silently no matter what she says or does. Don't tell us how we should act and we won't tell you how you should, but we can all certainly criticize each other. in the end, the law will support this girl's actions, but social mores and popular opinion will judge her someone very misguided and disgraceful. she could have done better by herself and by her friends she has lost and by her country.

"Popular opinion" may judge her as disgraceful, but "popular opinion" thinks the same thing of homosexuality. It's doesn't mean popular opinion is right.

actually popular opinion in some circles would be for homosexuality and some would argue that is the trend since society seems to be opening up toward it. you are right that popular opinion is fickle and not a fair judge. but in this case she's throwing the baby out with the bathwater... if you protest a certain war or administration why desecrate or detest a symbol of the foundation of the very nation that gives you the opportunity to protest? protest the actual war or the actual president. not the flag!!

You know, milehi, there were a lot of people who said the exact same thing during the Civil Rights movement in the South - that sit-ins, protest marches, and picket signs outside stores that discriminated, particularly against their northern outlets, were "tactless" and "disgraceful." In fact, when the first suffragettes marched in front of the White House it was an incredibly provocative act - after all this was a protest at a place where a man lived, and the home was sacrosanct. Now, of course, protesting at the White House is regarded not only as a "right" but as a necessary means to get your cause heard.

To be effective, protest cannot only be done during certain times and at certain places in order to make sure no one is offended. Hell, if offending people meant you couldn't protest, then technically none of us could have rainbow stickers on our cars, because that offends some people, and offending and angering people in traffic could be a problem.

I do not know if this young lady was "right" in her protest. I do not even know if her protest was the most effective way of going about presenting her message (in fact, it is being mistaken for an anti-war protest, which I don't believe was her point), and I am torn over whether she should have waited until she could have protested without involving her team and team-mates. That said, anyone in this country has the right to make political statements in the form and fashion they think is most appropriate. In certain, very narrowly defined, circumstances society can limit that right (the old "you can't yell fire in a crowded movie house" idea), but those limits must be carefully constructed.

You may disagree with her sense of "appropriate" in this instance, but please don't claim that the flag is never an "appropriate" source for protests. The Supreme Court made it clear many years ago that the flag was completely appropriate for protest.

the supreme court did *not* make it clear that the flag was an appropriate forum for protest they simply said it cannot be made *illegal* to desecrate it, and i agree with them. They made no statement on their personal feelings on the appropriateness or inappropriateness of it, simply the legality. No one here has challenged the legality of what this girl did. Although technically i still think the school had every right to censor her since she was representing them on a court in their uniform. At any rate, not a single person here to my knowledge has advocated the outlawing of what she did or of flag desecration. i think every person here has said that it is and should be legal to make such protests. but many of us obviously feel that we are just as entitled as this girl to voice our feelings that she has embarrassed herself and her country. that's all. plain and simple. just as she should not be silenced in her feelings we should not be silenced in our feelings either. it just seems that some people who are very far on the left won't be happy until the voices of the "intolerant" are silenced also which is simply another form of intolerance. I personally feel that what she did was an innapropriate protest. but inappropriate and illegal are two very different things. i would fight for her right to be wrong, but i would also speak up after the fight and voice to her and others that i feel she's going about it the wrong way. and i won't be silenced in that either.