but the pro-slavery people always held out that the bible gave them the right to own slaves
IMHO, if you look hard enough, the bible can be used to justify anything.
it took the Southern Baptists over a 100 years to ever apologize for being pro-slavery.
QUOTE
eftergivende:
I'm still amazed that the Episcopal Church did not split during the Civil War, as many denominations did, and there was no fuss from the overseas brethren about those Episcopalians who were on the side of the slaveholders. Are we to understand, then, that the conservative branch of the Episcopal Church believes that homosexuality is far worse than slavery?
Heh heh heh...thanks for the ammunition to use at the next meeting! :cool:
I'm still amazed that the Episcopal Church did not split during the Civil War, as many denominations did, and there was no fuss from the overseas brethren about those Episcopalians who were on the side of the slaveholders. Are we to understand, then, that the conservative branch of the Episcopal Church believes that homosexuality is far worse than slavery?
QUOTE
Jim at Outsports:
Pissed me off that Ed Bradley referred to Robinson's "lifestyle," but overall a very fair piece.
And "practicing homosexual"... So yeah, Bradley was kind of stiff, but didn't come with an agenda. I agree, it was a good piece.Pissed me off that Ed Bradley referred to Robinson's "lifestyle," but overall a very fair piece.
Robinson brought up my personal favorite get-over-yourself argument -- everyone knows that there are and always have been other gay bishops, he's just the first to be honest about it. So why isn't that a good thing? In fact, it is!
Good point, RSB! I'd like to see some of the Sons of the Church diss Robinson now with all the mess they've got on their hands!
BTW, any truth to the rumor of Ed Bradley's being gay?
BTW, any truth to the rumor of Ed Bradley's being gay?
QUOTE
redsoxbreath:
And "practicing homosexual"...
Bradely and anyone else reporting on this issue are in a linguistic straighjacket anyway you look at it. The problem is celibacy. I'm pretty sure (any Episcopals please correct me if I'm wrong) that celibate homosexuals were already allowed to be priests in the Anglican communion, but that "practicing homosexuals" are the difficulty. What other language would you use to honor that distinction? Mated homosexuals? Active f**kers?
And "practicing homosexual"...
Sodomites?
Which reminds me... My mom, who is a practicing Catholic, was a member of some "pro-life" group or other. Apparently the outfit decided to broaden its agenda, and she started getting fund-raising mailings ranting about all the other threats to the Traditional Christian Family, including <shudder> sodomites! (Lock the door! Write a check!)
As the proud mother of a loving and upstanding sodomite son, she wrote them a letter criticizing their anti-gay rhetortic as irrelevant to the abortion issue, hurtful, and just plain wrong. No more fund-raising letters. In fact, she never heard from them again.
[ March 08, 2004, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]
Which reminds me... My mom, who is a practicing Catholic, was a member of some "pro-life" group or other. Apparently the outfit decided to broaden its agenda, and she started getting fund-raising mailings ranting about all the other threats to the Traditional Christian Family, including <shudder> sodomites! (Lock the door! Write a check!)
As the proud mother of a loving and upstanding sodomite son, she wrote them a letter criticizing their anti-gay rhetortic as irrelevant to the abortion issue, hurtful, and just plain wrong. No more fund-raising letters. In fact, she never heard from them again.
[ March 08, 2004, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]
[quote]GatorJamie:
[QUOTE]Missed it.[/quote]I just stumbled across the CBSnews.com transcript of the Robinson segment, including a brief video promo.
[QUOTE]Missed it.[/quote]I just stumbled across the CBSnews.com transcript of the Robinson segment, including a brief video promo.
Anglican Leaders Seek Move to Avoid Schism
N.H. Episcopalians Elect Gay Bishop
QUOTE
By NEELA BANERJEE and BRIAN LAVERY
Published: February 25, 2005
Leaders of the global Anglican communion have asked the Episcopal Church U.S.A. and the Anglican Church of Canada to withdraw their representatives temporarily from a key governing body of the denomination, in an unprecedented move to avoid a schism over the American church's consecration of an openly gay man as a bishop and both churches' blessing of same-sex unions.
....
Conservatives may think that the exclusion of the North American churches is not a stiff-enough punishment for defying the communion's overall position on homosexuality, said the Rev. Dr. Ian T. Douglas, a professor of mission and world Christianity at the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, Mass.
....
The Episcopal Church's decision in 2003 to consecrate V. Gene Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire and the blessing of same-sex unions by a Canadian diocese was seen by many primates, especially in the developing world, as undermining a broad consensus within the communion to refrain from such steps, the communiqué said.
The communiqué urged the North American churches' leaders to persuade their dioceses to place a moratorium on similar actions in the near future.
In the United States, at least, that should not be a problem, Dr. Douglas contended, saying,
"My guess is that dioceses in the U.S., after the consecration of Gene Robinson, have a greater understanding of what our decisions mean to the global communion."
Here's a similar thread from 2003:Published: February 25, 2005
Leaders of the global Anglican communion have asked the Episcopal Church U.S.A. and the Anglican Church of Canada to withdraw their representatives temporarily from a key governing body of the denomination, in an unprecedented move to avoid a schism over the American church's consecration of an openly gay man as a bishop and both churches' blessing of same-sex unions.
....
Conservatives may think that the exclusion of the North American churches is not a stiff-enough punishment for defying the communion's overall position on homosexuality, said the Rev. Dr. Ian T. Douglas, a professor of mission and world Christianity at the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, Mass.
....
The Episcopal Church's decision in 2003 to consecrate V. Gene Robinson as bishop of New Hampshire and the blessing of same-sex unions by a Canadian diocese was seen by many primates, especially in the developing world, as undermining a broad consensus within the communion to refrain from such steps, the communiqué said.
The communiqué urged the North American churches' leaders to persuade their dioceses to place a moratorium on similar actions in the near future.
In the United States, at least, that should not be a problem, Dr. Douglas contended, saying,
"My guess is that dioceses in the U.S., after the consecration of Gene Robinson, have a greater understanding of what our decisions mean to the global communion."
N.H. Episcopalians Elect Gay Bishop
BostonGirl and I (Episcopalians) doubled our pledge this year.
If the Archbishop of Canterbury is going to "ask" the Episcopal Church and the Canadian Anglican Church to withdraw for 3 years, then maybe a schism is needed, with the North American Anglicans going their own way.
The same church people in Africa who are leading this battle, are the same people who support leaders like Mugabe. If that's the new face of the Anglican Church, then maybe it's time for the American and Canadian churches to leave.
The same church people in Africa who are leading this battle, are the same people who support leaders like Mugabe. If that's the new face of the Anglican Church, then maybe it's time for the American and Canadian churches to leave.
QUOTE
GatorJamie:
BostonGirl and I (Episcopalians) doubled our pledge this year.
Episcopalesbians.
BostonGirl and I (Episcopalians) doubled our pledge this year.
QUOTE
redsoxbreath:
As the proud mother of a loving and upstanding sodomite son,
Upstanding sodomite??? <perk> Mmmmmmm.....
As the proud mother of a loving and upstanding sodomite son,
Episcopalians Affirm Pro-Gay View
QUOTE
Church's North American Members Back Same-Sex Unions
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 26, 2005; Page A06
Episcopal leaders in North America declined yesterday to apologize for endorsing the ordination of homosexual bishops and same-sex unions despite growing threats of a schism with other branches Anglican church, which has 77 million members worldwide.
....
Michael Dobbs is the WaPo reporter out swimming in the ocean on December 26 when the tsunami arrived.
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 26, 2005; Page A06
Episcopal leaders in North America declined yesterday to apologize for endorsing the ordination of homosexual bishops and same-sex unions despite growing threats of a schism with other branches Anglican church, which has 77 million members worldwide.
....
Episcopalian sell-out?
QUOTE
From "Christianity Today" Web Site:
The Anglican Church of America (ECUSA) is preparing for an unexpected back-down on the controversial issue of homosexuality, the Telegraph has reported.
...International pressure has increased greatly during this time for the liberal leaders of the
ECUSA to back down, and it is thought that a conference in June will see a more compromising affair than has previously been witnessed.
Worldwide press reports have caught hold of leaked information from a private meeting of bishops in North Carolina, USA last week, and these have suggested that the American arm of the Church will "repent" for the problems they have caused in consecrating Gene Robinson as the Bishop of New Hampshire.
The ECUSA is also likely to conform with the rest of the worldwide Church by supporting a total ban on the blessing of gay unions and "marriages", and the Americans may even apologise for allowing them to take place in the past, the Telegraph reports.
...The American arms of the Communion have in the past refused to back down to calls from Churches in Africa and Asia to back-down on the issue. The spiritual head of the Anglican Church, Archbishop Dr Rowan Williams has also appealed to the Church to submit to pressure. However, until now there has been no compromise reached between the warring factions.
...An unofficial e-mail circulated last week by the Bishop of Arizona, the Rev Kirk Smith disclosed that the bishops had been briefed about a series of resolutions to be presented to a meeting in June of the American Episcopal Church's General Convention, its equivalent of the Church of England's General Synod.
"It is...a clear message that we will work to conform to the requests of the majority of the Anglican Communion."
Rt Rev Kirk Smith, Bishop of Arizona
The Anglican Church of America (ECUSA) is preparing for an unexpected back-down on the controversial issue of homosexuality, the Telegraph has reported.
...International pressure has increased greatly during this time for the liberal leaders of the
ECUSA to back down, and it is thought that a conference in June will see a more compromising affair than has previously been witnessed.
Worldwide press reports have caught hold of leaked information from a private meeting of bishops in North Carolina, USA last week, and these have suggested that the American arm of the Church will "repent" for the problems they have caused in consecrating Gene Robinson as the Bishop of New Hampshire.
The ECUSA is also likely to conform with the rest of the worldwide Church by supporting a total ban on the blessing of gay unions and "marriages", and the Americans may even apologise for allowing them to take place in the past, the Telegraph reports.
...The American arms of the Communion have in the past refused to back down to calls from Churches in Africa and Asia to back-down on the issue. The spiritual head of the Anglican Church, Archbishop Dr Rowan Williams has also appealed to the Church to submit to pressure. However, until now there has been no compromise reached between the warring factions.
...An unofficial e-mail circulated last week by the Bishop of Arizona, the Rev Kirk Smith disclosed that the bishops had been briefed about a series of resolutions to be presented to a meeting in June of the American Episcopal Church's General Convention, its equivalent of the Church of England's General Synod.
"It is...a clear message that we will work to conform to the requests of the majority of the Anglican Communion."
Rt Rev Kirk Smith, Bishop of Arizona
The Canadian Anglican Bishops apparently don't have a spine after all.
After all three houses (Laity, Priests, and Bishops) earlier passed a vote deciding that "...a blessing of same-sex marriage would not violate core church doctrine."
The Bishops then failed to pass a resolution that would have given individual diocese the option to let their priests bless gay couples who have already married in civil ceremonies. Although it would not have allowed priests to actually marry same-sex couples, it would have been a major step; and is now a major setback.
The resolution required a majority rule in three orders -- the laity, clergy and bishops. It failed only in the order of bishops, which voted 21-19 against it."
It would have been nice if the Bishops had had the courage of their convictions rather than try to bow down to a worldwide communion that will neither thank them for it or be appeased.
If anything they may have emboldened and encouraged the radicalists, and hurried the scism that will eventually come. It is only a matter of time now before the European Churches do the same, leaving the American Church OUT. If the Canadian Church had stuck with the American Church, then other liberal churches would have been encouraged, now they can see which way the power shift is blowing - all for the sake of church politics rather than for religious reasons.
The houses may debate the issue in the future, but this definately puts it at the bottom of the agenda.
R
I also was disappointed in the Anglican Bishops votes. On the upside though the newly elected Primate of the Anglican Church of Canada has been a long time supporter of opening the church up to everyone and was one of the earliest church leaders to support same sex marriage. He apparently worries conservatives within the church. The Lutheran Church of Canada also voted on the same sex marriage issue this weekend with the same results. Luckily I belong to the United Church of Canada, our largest Protestant denomination (union of Methodists and Presbeterians back in the 20's), which will not only blass same sex unions but will perform the actual marriage ceremony. Now if I can just get hubby over his marriage phobia.......
I too, am deeply disappointed by the Anglican bishops’ vote, but I had an interesting discussion while in England in May, with a highly-placed government employee who is both gay and out (I’ll suppress his name however; sorry, but he treasures his privacy).
I was holding forth on the fact that the Americans seem to be holding the line, and fulminating about how the greater Anglican community and the Archbishop of Canterbury seem to be bending over backwards to accommodate even the most outrageous African bishops (read: Akinola). My friend, who has done a great deal to promote LGBT equality, remarked that he was very sorry that the Americans had appointed Gene Robinson. His reasons - and I don’t agree, but feel it is worth hearing -was that much progress was being made, slowly and quietly, within the church, but that Robinson’s election brought a lot of things to the boil, which might never have erupted, had we gone forward more “quietly.”
It’s a point. I’m inclined to think that pushing things eventually gets attention and action, and that too much being quiet and letting it go slowly, gets you relatively nowhere. I’m also of the opinion that the stand of the Episcopal Church is prophetic and will bring things forward: my private guess is that there is a great deal more sympathy for our position than the timid heads of the church - or the foam-at-the-mouth heads of the church - realize, and that if we hold the line for inclusion and equality, many will follow.
I’m disappointed by the Canadians, but I’ll wait a bit and see.
Nat
I was holding forth on the fact that the Americans seem to be holding the line, and fulminating about how the greater Anglican community and the Archbishop of Canterbury seem to be bending over backwards to accommodate even the most outrageous African bishops (read: Akinola). My friend, who has done a great deal to promote LGBT equality, remarked that he was very sorry that the Americans had appointed Gene Robinson. His reasons - and I don’t agree, but feel it is worth hearing -was that much progress was being made, slowly and quietly, within the church, but that Robinson’s election brought a lot of things to the boil, which might never have erupted, had we gone forward more “quietly.”
It’s a point. I’m inclined to think that pushing things eventually gets attention and action, and that too much being quiet and letting it go slowly, gets you relatively nowhere. I’m also of the opinion that the stand of the Episcopal Church is prophetic and will bring things forward: my private guess is that there is a great deal more sympathy for our position than the timid heads of the church - or the foam-at-the-mouth heads of the church - realize, and that if we hold the line for inclusion and equality, many will follow.
I’m disappointed by the Canadians, but I’ll wait a bit and see.
Nat
Yeah, I hope that the Canadian decision doesn't embolden the conservatives in the Anglican communion. Also, I hope that if the American branch ends up breaking away that it doesn't become too alienated.
Why am I suprised and moved almost to tears these days when someone unexpected - but of demonstrable courage and integrity - supports equality for gays?
In this months issue of Vanity Fair Brad Pitt interviews South Africa's Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu, during which they discuss gay rights.
"Brad Pitt: So certainly discrimination has no place in Christianity. There's a big argument going on in America right now, on gay rights and equality.
Desmond Tutu: For me, I couldn't ever keep quiet. I came from a situation where for a very long time people were discriminated against, made to suffer for something about which they could do nothing--their ethnicity. We were made to suffer because we were not white. Then, for a very long time in our church, we didn't ordain women, and we were penalizing a huge section of humanity for something about which they could do nothing--their gender. And I'm glad that now the church has changed all that. I'm glad that apartheid has ended. I could not for any part of me be able to keep quiet, because people were being penalized, ostracized, treated as if they were less than human, because of something they could do nothing to change--their sexual orientation. For me, I can't imagine the Lord that I worship, this Jesus Christ, actually concurring with the persecution of a minority that is already being persecuted. The Jesus who I worship is a Jesus who was forever on the side of those who were being clobbered, and he got into trouble precisely because of that. Our church, the Anglican Church, is experiencing a very, very serious crisis. It is all to do with human sexuality. I think God is weeping. He is weeping that we should be spending so much energy, time, resources on this subject at a time when the world is aching.
Brad Pitt: I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for saying that."
[Vanity Fair, July 2007, p. 97-98]
It is the continuing open support of people like him that gives me a small ray of hope for the future... both for my adopted church and for gays. If only there weere more like him.
Rob
In this months issue of Vanity Fair Brad Pitt interviews South Africa's Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu, during which they discuss gay rights.
"Brad Pitt: So certainly discrimination has no place in Christianity. There's a big argument going on in America right now, on gay rights and equality.
Desmond Tutu: For me, I couldn't ever keep quiet. I came from a situation where for a very long time people were discriminated against, made to suffer for something about which they could do nothing--their ethnicity. We were made to suffer because we were not white. Then, for a very long time in our church, we didn't ordain women, and we were penalizing a huge section of humanity for something about which they could do nothing--their gender. And I'm glad that now the church has changed all that. I'm glad that apartheid has ended. I could not for any part of me be able to keep quiet, because people were being penalized, ostracized, treated as if they were less than human, because of something they could do nothing to change--their sexual orientation. For me, I can't imagine the Lord that I worship, this Jesus Christ, actually concurring with the persecution of a minority that is already being persecuted. The Jesus who I worship is a Jesus who was forever on the side of those who were being clobbered, and he got into trouble precisely because of that. Our church, the Anglican Church, is experiencing a very, very serious crisis. It is all to do with human sexuality. I think God is weeping. He is weeping that we should be spending so much energy, time, resources on this subject at a time when the world is aching.
Brad Pitt: I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for saying that."
[Vanity Fair, July 2007, p. 97-98]
It is the continuing open support of people like him that gives me a small ray of hope for the future... both for my adopted church and for gays. If only there weere more like him.
Rob
The Episcopal Church votes overwhelmingly to lift ban on gay Bishops and any other ministerial positions. Next battle, same-sex marriage. Wow! This is huge. Finally! As an individual who once seriously contemplated/pursued the priesthood in the Episcopal Church I am quite happy, to say the least. 
What SCTrojan said.
My own sense, based, on being a member of five different Episcopal parishes, is that for the average Episcopalian, feeding the poor and tending the sick take precedence over the sexual orientation of the person who's elected bishop. Whenever I hear talk of the "split" in the American church, I remember that it's hardly a 50/50 split, and most of my fellow parishioners don't lose a lot of sleep over this. They're busier filling and staffing the local food bank.
I'm not downplaying the importance of this vote. I'm simply trying to put it in perspective.
Proud, as always, to be an Episcopalian.
My own sense, based, on being a member of five different Episcopal parishes, is that for the average Episcopalian, feeding the poor and tending the sick take precedence over the sexual orientation of the person who's elected bishop. Whenever I hear talk of the "split" in the American church, I remember that it's hardly a 50/50 split, and most of my fellow parishioners don't lose a lot of sleep over this. They're busier filling and staffing the local food bank.
I'm not downplaying the importance of this vote. I'm simply trying to put it in perspective.
Proud, as always, to be an Episcopalian.
Ditto!
Gene Robinson's NY Times Interview. Quite interesting.
Same sex unions have now been approved by the Episcopalians.
Wow! That was fast. The other mainline Protestant denominations are next in line. They've been waiting patiently for the Episcopalians in order to follow suit. Yay!!!
Wow! That was fast. The other mainline Protestant denominations are next in line. They've been waiting patiently for the Episcopalians in order to follow suit. Yay!!!
It's quite amazing that many in the Anglican church are so supportive of gays that they are willing to see their own (global) Church split in two.
Similarly, I'm always amazed at how many churches in Toronto display rainbow flag stickers, or how many church groups (many, many) march in the Pride parade. But there are many LGBT Christians out there (I once dated a Christian guy, and there was a whole clique of gays in his church, which was not one of the downtown churches with a gay following, but a mid-town church) and many church leaders and congregations who are not hung up on the issue of gays.
Similarly, I'm always amazed at how many churches in Toronto display rainbow flag stickers, or how many church groups (many, many) march in the Pride parade. But there are many LGBT Christians out there (I once dated a Christian guy, and there was a whole clique of gays in his church, which was not one of the downtown churches with a gay following, but a mid-town church) and many church leaders and congregations who are not hung up on the issue of gays.
QUOTE(canmark @ Jul 18 2009, 08:11 AM) 
It's quite amazing that many in the Anglican church are so supportive of gays that they are willing to see their own (global) Church split in two.
Yep! & that's why we need to give our full support to them even if it's simply (& most importantly) financial.
As I predicted the Lutherans have followed suit. Yay!
Those wheels of justice, they move slooooowly -- but they move.
And that's why so many Episcopalians/Anglicans are willing to split the worldwide Church in two. They see supporting lgbt brothers and sisters as an issue of social Christian justice, and that trumps being nice to people in the same Church who are fighting against it.
I think, too, it depends on who you know. The average North American Anglican might care about Tanzanian Anglicans, but not know any. On the other hand, the nice lesbian couple is in the pew right behind him.
Good for the Lutherans.
And that's why so many Episcopalians/Anglicans are willing to split the worldwide Church in two. They see supporting lgbt brothers and sisters as an issue of social Christian justice, and that trumps being nice to people in the same Church who are fighting against it.
I think, too, it depends on who you know. The average North American Anglican might care about Tanzanian Anglicans, but not know any. On the other hand, the nice lesbian couple is in the pew right behind him.
Good for the Lutherans.
A possible Protestant-Catholic "war" for the 21st century? Hmmm...
I've always thought that was a pretty crappy reason to want a divorce from his wife and break from the Catholic church. You're suppose to keep crankin' out those pups until you get the gender you want! 
I'm surprised by the Church reaching out to the Anglicans the way they are. Guess they found a way to "grow their marketshare". So, will these guys be "Catholic-Lite"?
I'm surprised by the Church reaching out to the Anglicans the way they are. Guess they found a way to "grow their marketshare". So, will these guys be "Catholic-Lite"?
Yep! As conservative the smaller population of Western Anglicans may be they will be in for a real eye-awakener. Dissent--of any kind, dogma or otherwise--is intolerable w/in the Catholic Church. I say good luck to them!
It might not change things as much as you think. Unlike most protestant churches, the origin of the Anglican Church was always more about a political break with Rome than theological differences. I would guess that they would enter the church as a sui juris English Catholic church, similar to the various Eastern catholic churches (the Copts, Maronites, etc.).
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.