QUOTE
millerbeach:
You are not on that list.
And for that I am grateful!
You are not on that list.
I am waiting for the "I know you are but what am I" or "I'm rubber, you're glue" post any moment now. 
QUOTE
George_Twinsfan:
I am waiting for the \"I know you are but what am I\" or \"I'm rubber, you're glue\" post any moment now.
Nah, nah, nah-na, nah, na I am waiting for the \"I know you are but what am I\" or \"I'm rubber, you're glue\" post any moment now.
Isn't there a bathroom monitor around here somewhere? 
eek! R
All right. Enough's enough. It is time for the adult here to send you kids home.
So go home.
So go home.
Wow, You're the adult? This board is doomed.
QUOTE
MIB:
...the world does celebrate Christmas...
I bet Christmas in Iraq is going to be awesome this year. Of course Santa's helpers will have to step over alot of dead bodies of "defenseless babies" on the way to the mall. ...the world does celebrate Christmas...
The good news is they should have plenty of time to shop since the unemployment rate is at 60%. Oh, and as a special Christmas treat maybe they'll have electricity for an hour or so.
An early Merry Christmas Iraq, freedom is on the march!
Sure, I know all about "the world" celebrating Christmas. I attended public schools in the 1960's. When students were asked to write essays on "What Christmas Means to Me" and illustrate our favorite Christmas song. When we were all supposed to sing songs with lyrics like "Oh come let us adore him, Christ our lord".
But he's not my lord. And I don't celebrate Christmas. So when I was little, not in high school when I'd learned to be stubborn, but 7 and 8 years old I had teachers demanding to know why I wasn't singing. The "liberal" ones would say, in front of the class, "you don't have to sing if you don't want to".
Then the inevitable playground spitting, pushing, punching and getting the crap beat out of me because I killed "their lord".
Isn't Christmas a wonderful time of the year?
BTW, does calling it "winter break" stop any Christian from celebrating Christmas?
But he's not my lord. And I don't celebrate Christmas. So when I was little, not in high school when I'd learned to be stubborn, but 7 and 8 years old I had teachers demanding to know why I wasn't singing. The "liberal" ones would say, in front of the class, "you don't have to sing if you don't want to".
Then the inevitable playground spitting, pushing, punching and getting the crap beat out of me because I killed "their lord".
Isn't Christmas a wonderful time of the year?
BTW, does calling it "winter break" stop any Christian from celebrating Christmas?
QUOTE
ITJock:
NY Times: Five Muslims to Sue U.S. Over Border Detentions
April 20, 2005
By ANDREA ELLIOTT
Five American Muslims will file a federal lawsuit today after they and dozens of others were detained last December by United States border agents as they returned home from a religious conference in Toronto, their lawyers said.
The Muslim men and women, all American citizens who live in New York, said they and others were held up to six and a half hours at border crossings, interrogated, photographed and fingerprinted simply because they told customs agents they had attended \"Reviving the Islamic Spirit,\" a large annual conference organized by Muslim organizations in Canada. None of those detained had engaged in unlawful activities, their lawyers said.
Border agents near Buffalo searched the cars of those detained and confiscated some of their cellphones after they tried to call lawyers, according to the complaint their lawyers plan to file in United States District Court in Brooklyn. The three men and two women include an orthodontist, a teacher, a hotel manager and a graduate student, and are represented by lawyers for the New York Civil Liberties Union, the American Civil Liberties Union and the Council on American-Islamic Relations. The complaint charges that the detention, interrogation and other treatment of those held by customs officials violated their constitutional rights.
Homeland Security officials have acknowledged that at least 34 people were stopped by border agents after attending the conference. In response to questions about the suit, Valerie Smith, a spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security, said: \"The mission of the Department of Homeland Security is to protect Americans from terrorism and the mission of Customs and Border Protection is to prevent terrorists and their weapons from entering our country. It is incumbent upon Customs officers to be right each and every time. Terrorists only have to get it right once.\" She said she could not discuss the details of the case.
Agents asked a woman who said she was seven months pregnant to prove it by
lifting her shirt. Some women cried as agents pressed their hands to
digital fingerprint scanners.
After three hours, one woman with children became agitated and suggested
she was going to leave. \"We're going to send a car after you to get you,\"
the officers said, according to officials at the Washington-based Council
on American-Islamic Relations.
The Muslims (All American Citizens) were told, \"you have no rights.\" by one Customs supervisor.
A few hours later, U.S. Customs officers at the airport detained a University of Chicago academic and made jokes about Muslims.
None of those detained were ever charged with any crime.
Sorry, but after extensive research, I found that none of this happened. It's not true. Because you did not have fantomas personally witness this with his own eyes, you must have made this up.
QUOTE
MIB:
...Speaking of this Act, I have yet to hear of one case anywhere in the U.S. where someone was unjustly harmed by actions as a result of it.
Your wish is my command:...Speaking of this Act, I have yet to hear of one case anywhere in the U.S. where someone was unjustly harmed by actions as a result of it.
NY Times: Five Muslims to Sue U.S. Over Border Detentions
April 20, 2005
By ANDREA ELLIOTT
Five American Muslims will file a federal lawsuit today after they and dozens of others were detained last December by United States border agents as they returned home from a religious conference in Toronto, their lawyers said.
The Muslim men and women, all American citizens who live in New York, said they and others were held up to six and a half hours at border crossings, interrogated, photographed and fingerprinted simply because they told customs agents they had attended \"Reviving the Islamic Spirit,\" a large annual conference organized by Muslim organizations in Canada. None of those detained had engaged in unlawful activities, their lawyers said.
Border agents near Buffalo searched the cars of those detained and confiscated some of their cellphones after they tried to call lawyers, according to the complaint their lawyers plan to file in United States District Court in Brooklyn. The three men and two women include an orthodontist, a teacher, a hotel manager and a graduate student, and are represented by lawyers for the New York Civil Liberties Union, the American Civil Liberties Union and the Council on American-Islamic Relations. The complaint charges that the detention, interrogation and other treatment of those held by customs officials violated their constitutional rights.
Homeland Security officials have acknowledged that at least 34 people were stopped by border agents after attending the conference. In response to questions about the suit, Valerie Smith, a spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security, said: \"The mission of the Department of Homeland Security is to protect Americans from terrorism and the mission of Customs and Border Protection is to prevent terrorists and their weapons from entering our country. It is incumbent upon Customs officers to be right each and every time. Terrorists only have to get it right once.\" She said she could not discuss the details of the case.
Agents asked a woman who said she was seven months pregnant to prove it by
lifting her shirt. Some women cried as agents pressed their hands to
digital fingerprint scanners.
After three hours, one woman with children became agitated and suggested
she was going to leave. \"We're going to send a car after you to get you,\"
the officers said, according to officials at the Washington-based Council
on American-Islamic Relations.
The Muslims (All American Citizens) were told, \"you have no rights.\" by one Customs supervisor.
A few hours later, U.S. Customs officers at the airport detained a University of Chicago academic and made jokes about Muslims.
None of those detained were ever charged with any crime.
From someone who knows alot about making stuff up.
Some of you religious people on this board who frequent the churches will have to answer something for me. When did Sunday not become enough for these people? If the holiday is called "winter break", does that mean you can't celebrate your precious Christmas anymore? No. What it does mean is you might not get to push something on me that I have the RIGHT to not see and hear. If I want any of that, then I can walk into my local church. Until then, keep it in the privacy of your home or religious building. As someone said earlier, it's the respectful thing to do. Besides, I'm not out there saying that you can't believe in whatever you choose; why is it so important that I believe the same as you, if anything at all?
And for the record, there shouldn't be any federal holidays that even remotely link to religion. Either have holidays for every religion or have none at all. Who cares if the majority celebrates this particular day? Since when is the majority correct. It would be so much easier to have a set number of holidays available to each person. Which ones you choose is your prerogative.
And for the record, there shouldn't be any federal holidays that even remotely link to religion. Either have holidays for every religion or have none at all. Who cares if the majority celebrates this particular day? Since when is the majority correct. It would be so much easier to have a set number of holidays available to each person. Which ones you choose is your prerogative.
QUOTE
dfwAggie99:
If I want any of that, then I can walk into my local church. Until then, keep it in the privacy of your home or religious building. As someone said earlier, it's the respectful thing to do.
As a Jew living in America, I have to say this smacks of the attitude some of the slightly enlightened members of the religious right have about homosexuality. "We don't care what you do in your bedrooms, but do you have to be public about it? Couldn't you just kiss and hold hands in your own homes or those clubs you people have?"If I want any of that, then I can walk into my local church. Until then, keep it in the privacy of your home or religious building. As someone said earlier, it's the respectful thing to do.
Religion is a part of social life. I have no problem with anyone celebrating their religion in public as long as they don't do two things, demand that I pay for it or use governmental institutions to impose it upon the rest of us. We're always going to have arguments over what is an imposition of religion. Is calling the break between semesters "Christmas break" an imposition of Christianity? Well, the Supreme Court just ruled that intention is relevant to that determination. Since the impetus in the case initially cited in this thread does appear to be public and governmental endorsement of Christianity, then yes, this is an imposition of religion using govermental agencies. That still doesn't mean that we can stifle public displays of religion just because they make us uncomfortable any more than those made uncomfortable by public displays of affection should be able to stifle those.
since Christmas is no longer about the birth of Jesus and only about retailers making their bottom line for the year, I have little problem with anyone calling anything Christmas since it has nothing to do with Christ anymore
it might as well be called "Another reason for Macy's to have yet another sale"
it might as well be called "Another reason for Macy's to have yet another sale"
jqueer, I completely understand and agree with what you wrote...I just wish these self-described Christians had even a tenth of the respect for me to not worship anything as I do for them to choose Christianity as their religion.
We all know that these people who want public displays of religion are only OK with their choices. I'm sure they would have a huge problem if I wanted to display an atheist symbol right next to their precious baby Jesus in that manger.
It seems these people forget that freedom of religion also means freedom of NO religion.
[ August 24, 2005, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: dfwAggie99 ]
We all know that these people who want public displays of religion are only OK with their choices. I'm sure they would have a huge problem if I wanted to display an atheist symbol right next to their precious baby Jesus in that manger.
It seems these people forget that freedom of religion also means freedom of NO religion.
[ August 24, 2005, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: dfwAggie99 ]
QUOTE
jqueer:
Well, the Supreme Court just ruled that intention is relevant to that determination. Since the impetus in the case initially cited in this thread does appear to be public and governmental endorsement of Christianity, then yes, this is an imposition of religion using govermental agencies.
That was a different case. SCOTUS let stand a 4th Circuit Court of Appeals decision that said states, specifically Maryland in that one, may require schools to close for religious holidays. In MD. schools were required to close for Good Friday, an obvious Christian day nowhere near Christmas in its prominence. Well, the Supreme Court just ruled that intention is relevant to that determination. Since the impetus in the case initially cited in this thread does appear to be public and governmental endorsement of Christianity, then yes, this is an imposition of religion using govermental agencies.
Your argument above falls in light of SCOTUS's current position.
QUOTE
dfwAggie99:
... if I wanted to display an atheist symbol right next to their precious baby Jesus in that manger.
And just what IS "an atheist symbol"? :confused:
... if I wanted to display an atheist symbol right next to their precious baby Jesus in that manger.
QUOTE
theodoresdaddy:
since Christmas is no longer about the birth of Jesus and only about retailers making their bottom line for the year, I have little problem with anyone calling anything Christmas since it has nothing to do with Christ anymore
it might as well be called \"Another reason for Macy's to have yet another sale\"
My Mountaineer brother is oh so right. Also it should be illegal to have x-mas stuff out in OCT!!!!!!
since Christmas is no longer about the birth of Jesus and only about retailers making their bottom line for the year, I have little problem with anyone calling anything Christmas since it has nothing to do with Christ anymore
it might as well be called \"Another reason for Macy's to have yet another sale\"
I don't know, MIB...I should figure that out so I can display one.
I suppose a manger w/ the red circle and slash though it might suffice.
Or a baby Jesus with horns...but that might piss off too many people...on second thought, that's my new symbol.
BTW, I'm surprised that no one's yet mentioned that one of the XMas traditions for Catholic students is to steal the Baby Jesus from the nativity scene usually set up outside their schools. That's one of the things I've always liked about most Catholics; we don't take our religion TOO seriously!
I think everyone's missing the point of MIB's thread. I think MIB is trying to draw attention to the fact that there are factions of ppl (mainly liberals) across the country who are trying to eliminate the word "Christmas" from our holiday vernacular?
I've always known it to be Xmas vacation and/or Xmas break. Once again, religion aside, it's an America tradition to celebrate the Xmas holiday. I don't have a problem with it. Just try pulling this mess in a country like Saudi Arabia and see how far you'll get.
I honestly don't give a damn what anyone calls it, but since there are ppl hell-bent on making a religious issue of it, then I'll continue to proclaim my holiday greeting by saying, "Merry fcuking Christmas", especially to those who are vehemently against it. eek!
Ho, ho, ho...
I've always known it to be Xmas vacation and/or Xmas break. Once again, religion aside, it's an America tradition to celebrate the Xmas holiday. I don't have a problem with it. Just try pulling this mess in a country like Saudi Arabia and see how far you'll get.
I honestly don't give a damn what anyone calls it, but since there are ppl hell-bent on making a religious issue of it, then I'll continue to proclaim my holiday greeting by saying, "Merry fcuking Christmas", especially to those who are vehemently against it. eek!
Ho, ho, ho...
Well said, allen, especially the holiday greeting, with which I wholeheartedly and warmly agree. 
QUOTE
it's an America tradition to celebrate the Xmas holiday.
Allen, I was born and raised here as were my parents. We are American; we do not celebrate Christmas. Neither does anyone else in my family.It is a Christian holiday and you can't get away from that.
It strikes me as really really bizarre when people like Bill O'Reilly and some on this board scream about how Christians are being persecuted and forced to stop celebrating Christmas when polls show more than 90% of Americans do just that. Because they are following their religious, not their national, tradition and that is just fine. All I am asking is that I be equally free to not celebrate it, and when the state and its schools sponsor it that freedom is taken from me.
In fact plenty of non-Christians appreciate art forms like The Nutcracker or The Messiah , but attending such performances is voluntary.
I wonder how many of these oh-so-persecuted Christians would like to be forced to fast on Yom Kippur or during Ramadan? How many Protestants want to have a cross of ashes on their foreheads on Ash Wednesday? Why do you have the right to not keep someone else's holiday but others don't?
QUOTE
MIB:
If it's been \"Christmas Break\" for years, just leave it alone, will ya?
This is just about the stupidest reason for "leaving it alone". Just because something's been done for years doesn't mean it's right. It's as simple as that.
If it's been \"Christmas Break\" for years, just leave it alone, will ya?
QUOTE
gmginsfo:
That's one of the things I've always liked about most Catholics; we don't take our religion TOO seriously!
Oh, ok, that explains priests raping children.That's one of the things I've always liked about most Catholics; we don't take our religion TOO seriously!
Most Catholics certainly dont live by their religion, thats for sure.
I'll remember that when you guys scream about stare decisis in terms of past SCOTUS rulings that are clearly wrong. There are plenty of them.
QUOTE
RazorbackTX:
Most Catholics certainly dont live by their religion, thats for sure.
(emphasis added)Most Catholics certainly dont live by their religion, thats for sure.
"Most"??? Prove it, Raze. Back it up with concrete, provable statistics.
Nope. I didn't think you could.
Well, if most of those catholics in France, Italy and Spain aren't using birth control, there must be very little sex going on in those countries.
A billion Catholics in the world, and I have yet to see Raze prove that "most" don't live by their religion.
I'm not naive to think that all of them do. There are way too many cafeteria Catholics (cafeteria anything, for that matter). I'm just waiting for Raze to prove it. Of course, it'll have to be personally verified by fantomas, and nothing less than an actual, physical count by FT would be acceptable.
I'm not naive to think that all of them do. There are way too many cafeteria Catholics (cafeteria anything, for that matter). I'm just waiting for Raze to prove it. Of course, it'll have to be personally verified by fantomas, and nothing less than an actual, physical count by FT would be acceptable.
Just for the record MIB, I feel no obligation to anwser your question since you duck most of mine.
Do you practice abstinence?
If not, your a cafateria catholic.
Join the crowd.
Do you practice abstinence?
If not, your a cafateria catholic.
Join the crowd.
QUOTE
RazorbackTX:
Just for the record MIB, I feel no obligation to anwser your question since you duck most of mine.
Do you practice abstinence?
If not, your a cafateria catholic.
Join the crowd.
Actually, I do practice abstinence (at least lately). Just for the record MIB, I feel no obligation to anwser your question since you duck most of mine.
Do you practice abstinence?
If not, your a cafateria catholic.
Join the crowd.
Touche.BTW, at least I can spell "cafetaria." Try again, Raze. The world is still waiting for you to prove your rash generalizations.
Thanks for making my point, you're one too.
Happy Winter Break!
Happy Winter Break!
You're quite welcome. Merry Christmas, Happy Easter, and all that fun stuff.
QUOTE
MIB:
BTW, at least I can spell \"cafetaria.\" Try again, Raze.
actually, you can't.
BTW, at least I can spell \"cafetaria.\" Try again, Raze.
QUOTE
thersis:
Be fair. Neither of you are doing a great job with "cafeteria."
QUOTE
MIB:
BTW, at least I can spell \"cafetaria.\" Try again, Raze.
actually, you can't. BTW, at least I can spell \"cafetaria.\" Try again, Raze.
Well, I DID do that intentionally. I should've put one of those little emoticons next to it.
Kudos to jqueer for noticing it, though.
[ August 25, 2005, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]
Kudos to jqueer for noticing it, though.
[ August 25, 2005, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]
Originally posted by mdphl:
...Again, it boils down to religion -- the single greatest evil in the world.
I would argue mdphl that religious fundamentalism, dogma, or fanaticism can be the greatest EVIL in the world. Spirituality, on the other hand, can be the single greatest GOOD in the world.
MIB,
I'm a school teacher & at LA Unified School District. We did use "Christmas Break" for many years. It now has become "Winter Break". Just like "Easter Break" became "Spring Break". FYI I'm a devout Christian. But living in LA my students come from all over the world. And many of them are definitely not Christian (right now I have one class where there are Hindi, Jew, Muslim, & Christian). So for the sake of respecting all of my students I use the terms currently used by the District I work for. However, with my Christian family & friends I use the former terms. Basically I can use both terms w/ no problem. That's the way I've been able to use both terms: of my convictions & of my employer.
[ August 25, 2005, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: SCTrojan ]
...Again, it boils down to religion -- the single greatest evil in the world.
I would argue mdphl that religious fundamentalism, dogma, or fanaticism can be the greatest EVIL in the world. Spirituality, on the other hand, can be the single greatest GOOD in the world.
MIB,
I'm a school teacher & at LA Unified School District. We did use "Christmas Break" for many years. It now has become "Winter Break". Just like "Easter Break" became "Spring Break". FYI I'm a devout Christian. But living in LA my students come from all over the world. And many of them are definitely not Christian (right now I have one class where there are Hindi, Jew, Muslim, & Christian). So for the sake of respecting all of my students I use the terms currently used by the District I work for. However, with my Christian family & friends I use the former terms. Basically I can use both terms w/ no problem. That's the way I've been able to use both terms: of my convictions & of my employer.
[ August 25, 2005, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: SCTrojan ]
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