I don't think this is what our Founders had in mind when they devised the Establishment clause.

Non-CNN story.

If it's been "Christmas Break" for years, just leave it alone, will ya? After all, Christmas itself is a federal holiday.

Actually, it had been WINTER break for several years.

LXN

MIB, the damned thing also includes Hannukah. So you'd have Jews refer to their holy season as "Christmas Break"?

It's Winter Break. Period.

MIB - You are right.
I don't think that that is what our founding fathers had in mind.

The sizable minority of them were deists.
I think they would be appalled at calling it Christmas Break.

A large majority of them were protestants less than 100 years from the end of the Reformation, and Counter Reformation and in the middle of the Age of Enlightenment.

Another important movement in 18th century philosophy, which was closely related to it, was characterized by a focus on belief and piety. Its proponents attempted to use rationalism to demonstrate the existence of a supreme being. In this period, piety and belief were integral parts in the exploration of natural philosophy and ethics in addition to political theories of the age. However, prominent Enlightenment philosophers such as Voltaire and Jean-Jacques Rousseau questioned and attacked the existing institutions of both Church and State.

Further the most religious of the period, regardless of the sect, would be appalled at ANY thought that the day should be one of anything but prayer - certainly not a cause for a vacation from work, or fun and leisure time. They would have considered it a sin. "Hands to Work Hearts to God" was NOT just a saying.

Can we then expect you to work a twelve hour day this Christmas? Either ignoring the holiday, or celebrating it with work?

Rob

I think it's interesting that you say "Just leave it alone. It's been that way for years."

as your own link to FoxNews states in the story, the district had called it "Winter Break" for 21 years.

The people who decided to cause change were not the "Winter Break" people. Rather, it was the "Christmas Break" people who decided t change what had been in place "for years"

It's interesting that you say, "it's been that way for years. Just leave it alone will ya?"
When in fact, had your phrase been truly applied, the name would still be "winter break" and there would be no controversy.

This is not a case of PC gone amok. This is a case of religious fundamentalists wanting to put the "Christian right label" in their right wing reclamation project and crying wolf when thwarted.

I agree, PC does surface in truly idiotic examples. But this is not one of them. You should find a better example.

Uh, no it's not! It's Christmas Break because the entire vacation centered around Christmas the holiday. BTW, Hannakuh doesn't always fall in late December, so you're argument is moot.

It's a perfect example of something so ridiculously minor made into something major by the PC police. The First Amendment in NO WAY was meant to dealt with local schools simply labeling a two-week or so vacation centered around Christmas and New Year's "Christmas Break."

There is no justification for this in constitutional law. Period.

How about just plain old civility and respect for others then?

Exactly. Which is why leaving it "Christmas Break" would foster respect for those who for decades had it worded this way. To bow to the wishes of a small handful of PC zealots shows disrespect and uncivility toward the vast majority of the others. I'm glad you finally agree with logic.

BTW, I never knew respect and civility were in the First Amendment. Must be one of those "emanations of the penumbra" things liberals love so much.

>>>It's a perfect example of something so ridiculously minor made into something major by the PC police.

If it's so damned ridiculously minor, why didn't they leave it as "Winter Break"? Besides, y'know, the fact that it was WRONG that way?

>>>BTW, I never knew respect and civility were in the First Amendment.

Um, they aren't. That's probably why HF posited them INSTEAD of the First Amendment.

LXN

As usual you are off on a tangent? Who said respect & civility were in the First Amendment? Certainly not me! Adult ADD, check into it.

Winter Break is fine with me, even though I celebrate Christmas. I'm just logical enough to understand not everyone else does the same thing in December. It's called living in a melting pot and simple respect for others. That's all. Why must Christianity trump all others? That's a Taliban mentality.

Slavery was a tradition in the South, but it didn't make it right. Was abolition PC run amok?

BTW, welcome to you and FauxNews to 2005. It's been "Winter Break" for the past 15 to 20 years.

I hope the evil PC Police don't give you nightmares at night.

[ August 20, 2005, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: HornFan ]

i've got to agree that this is getting a bit out of hand -- winter break! who ever heard of such a thing?

what next? spring break?

it's out of control and must be stopped!

Then perhaps he can get Congress and the States to ratify a "respect and civility" amendment.

Here in Illinois, public schools give students Good Friday off. However, a few years ago, because one nutjob who, as HF says, deserves "civility and respect," complained, so by a decree of the liberal dominated IL. Supreme Court, "Good Friday" was deemed a violation of the First Amendment. How ridiculous! Now it's called "spring holiday" or more often "non-attendance day."

The state was merely acknowledging that Good Friday is a day on which for over a hundred years school kids were given a day off simply because it was Good Friday. Like this Christmas Break political correctness bullshit, it in NO WAY is a violation of the First Amendment. None.

And none of you intolerant, anti-religious folks can prove it is.

Of course, had a school given a day off for some "diversity day" or "gay tolerance" day, you'd all be parading down the street in favor of it.

Oh! The hypocrisy!

[ August 20, 2005, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: MIB ]

I see the points of Christmas vs. Winter break. I'm just glad we have it

Of course I think we chould call it bowl game season break!!!

That would be a 2-month break then!

Actually no its not it should be called Saturnalia. The entire vacation is centered around the winter solstice and should be called by its original name before being corrupted by Xtians.

MIB, from what I read you consistently confuse your role as a Christian with your role as a citizen. As a Christian, you can worship any way you please (or not). But as a ciizen, you need to support the civil liberties of your fellow countrymen. And in a multi-cultural, multi-faith society, trying to dictate your religion's insertion into governmental decisions is unpatriotic and un-American.

Literally the entire world did not celebrate the pagan feast surrounding Saturn, but the world does celebrate Christmas, and we know Jesus's actual birthday isn't December 25th. The pagan feast time was chosen for a reason, though.

Spare me the bullshit, dinger. Christmas is a federal holiday, got that? If we follow your logic and that of the other intolerant folks here, then it MUST be repealed as a federal holiday.

Any wonder why it's a federal holiday? Hint: It has nothing to do with secular reasons.

And who's trying to dictate what here? That's right. The intolerant but vocal minority, a handful of people who suddenly demand that local school districts bow to their absurd rantings.

MIB, I needn't spare you bullshit, you're pretty full of it.

As has always been the case, your type will be drug kicking and screaming into the future. As has happened so many times in the past, what is currently called liberal will be mainstream soon. And you guys will find some other form of progress to stop.

I don't know what you're smoking, but it's clearly damaging brain cells. With America increasingly voting conservative in many respects, while the country is not going to become some right-wing nation, it is much closer to the right than it is the left, drifting farther away from the intolerant left every day.

You never answered my other scenario: because Christmas is a federal holiday, it must be repealed, right? After all, this is an obvious example of government endorsing religion--much more so than a school district retitling Christmas Break Winter Break.

I said it before, I'll say it again: calling something "Christmas Break" is in no way a violation of the Constitution. At all.

I make it a point to say Merry Christmas every chance I get. I'm so tired of the pc police trying to change tradition. And this is coming from someone who despise religion.

The world celebrates Christmas? Interesting I have been to places in the world that don't celebrate Christmas. Your world view is slighlty out of wack. About 33% of the world is christian, why would the other 2/3 of the world celebrate a christian holiday? 82% of the U.S. are Christian, why would the other 18% in the U.S. celebrate Christmas?

KU, I told you a million times not too exaggerate.

You obviously missed my point.

Finally! Someone with some simple common sense.

BTW, I don't even say, "Happy Holidays." I say, "Merry Christmas" then "Happy New Year" depending on what the occasion is.

MIB, I'm no constitutional expert, don't claim to be, although the article discussed the Washington State constitution, not the federal one. I'm not sure what differences there are in those documents.

But if Christmas wasn't a federal holiday, so what? Christians could still celebrate it (buy all the material bullshit their credit cards would allow). What they couldn't do, though, is force the children of other religions to try and understand why their country respects some religions more than others.

And you don't even have all the Christians on your side of this argument.

I've read you're a judge - why does it seem you need a ninth-grade civics class to understand our democracy?

The fact that you actually believe the U.S. is a "democracy" proves that you do not understand so-called civics as much as I do.

Sorry, but you opened the door, dinger. Regardless, I understand far more about constitutional law than you do, so spare me your incorrect assumptions and references about this great document.

MIB, believe me, you are not going to hurt my feelings, and I give you your due on constitutional issues. Although I'm still not sure which constitution we're referring to, U.S. or Washington State.

I answered your question, but you didn't answer mine. What if Christmas wasn't a federal holiday? So what? Easter isn't, but the world survives just fine. The chocalatiers do okay. What would be the big deal if Christmas wasn't a federal holdiday?

No big deal if it wasn't a federal holiday. I wouldn't scream about it. For now, it is, which seems a blatant contradiction in terms of alleged governmental involvement in religion.

BTW, my arguments are based on the federal Constitution and not Washington State's. I was addressing what applies to us all and not solely Washingtonians.

Finally, violent agreement. So, trying to fix the contradiction you noted is a good thing, right?

And as for what I'm smoking, Marlboro Menthol Lights. And yes, too many. But if they are damaging my brain cells like you say, the tobacco companies are really going to have a lawsuit on their hands. Of course, I'll have to try and prove I had okay brain cells to start with. Damn, I'll need a really good lawyer. And some good medical experts for hire. And the cigs we'll probably get my lungs before I get through the court system. Damn. Foiled again.

Well, I've never smoked a cancer stick in my life, but I am not fan of all those tobacco lawsuits.

I'm a liberal and always thought those suits were ridiculous as well. My poor grandmother who only had a 6th grade education was smart enough in the 60's to know that cigs are not good for your health. She didn't need the Surgeon General to tell her so.

Okay, I'm going to go enjoy some more "summer" break for now.

Four words: tempest in a teapot. I don't live in Washington state, so I don't give a rat's fat ass what they call their winter/Christmas break. And to posit this ri-damned-diculous "controversy" as "newsworthy" is as moronic as taking this whole thing before a school board.



People on both sides need to have a Coke and a smile and shut the f**k up.

[ August 20, 2005, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: kalabro ]

There you go again, showing your loathing of your fellow gays based on pure conjecture.

Oh Really? Your 'world' must be very small. In point of fact most of the worlds population does NOT celebrate Christmas. Certainly not most of Asia (China and India?), The Middle East, or Africa.

Those little globes that you shake and then watch as snow falls on the houses are meant just for amusement... you shouldn't live in there. Come on out and join the real world.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in our philosophy..."

Rob

Sorry, IT, but the world does celebrate Christmas, whether you like it or not.

Of course, I can't help it if you infer this as meaning each and every nation celebrates it. That, as usual, is your own fault.

Gee, I grew up hearing the time off from school referred to as the "holiday break", referring to any and all holidays during this time period a person might celebrate, including New Years Day.

Kujhawker - you are absolutely right - if anything it should be called Saturnalia Break. Anyone with even a little knowledge of the history of organized religion recognizes that the christian "religion" and many/most of the other dying/rising god cults created false "holidays" centered around Saturnalia in an attempt to give their cults credibility. Heck, the christians were so effective in this country they even made their fiction a national holiday -- and elected a war criminal president. eek!

Point of fact: early Christians did not create Christmas around Saturnalia; rather, when Christmas was decided as the day on which to celebrate the birth of Jesus, they intentionally placed it in late December due to, among other reasons, the pagans having such a good time feasting. In hindsight, with New Year's Day coming exactly one week after Christmas, it was a good decision.

No MIB - The WORLD Does not. Many people around the world do. The majority of people do no, nor does the actual physical World which is inert.

"Christmas (literally, the Mass of Christ) is a holiday in the Christian calendar, usually observed on December 25, which celebrates the birth of Jesus, the Christ, of Nazareth. “Christmas" is a contraction of "Christ's Mass", derived from the Old English Cristes mæsse. It is often abbreviated Xmas, possibly because the letter X resembles the Greek letter Χ (Chi), which is the first letter of "Christ" as spelled in Greek (Χριστός [Christos]). 'Christos' in Koine Greek means roughly Teacher or Mentor.

Most scholars believe that Christmas originated in the 4th century as a Christian substitute for pagan celebrations of the winter solstice, although this really falls on December 21.

Before the introduction of Christmas, each year beginning on December 17 Romans honored Saturn, the ancient god of agriculture, in a festival called Saturnalia. This festival lasted for seven days and included the winter solstice, which usually occurred around December 25 on the ancient Julian calendar. During Saturnalia the Romans feasted, postponed all business and warfare, exchanged gifts, and temporarily freed their slaves.

Many Romans also celebrated the solstice on December 25th with festivities in honor of the rebirth of Sol Invictus, the "Invincible Sun God", or with rituals to glorify Mithra, the ancient Persian god of light (see Mithraism). With the lengthening of daylight, these and other winter festivities continued through January 1, the festival of Kalends, when Romans marked the day of the new moon and the first day of the month and year. It is also possible that this practice was an ancient form of Christianization, as the Romans did not start this practice until the 3rd and 4th centuries AD. It could have been incorporated into their worship as an attempt to resist the Christianization of the Roman Empire.

Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Christians. Efforts to fix a date for the birth of Christ began some three centuries after his death , as the Catholic Church began to establish traditions in an attempt to combat the widespread popularity of many pagan religious festivals.

An enormous number of customs, with either secular, religious, or national aspects, surround Christmas, and vary from country to country. Most of the familiar traditional practices and symbols of Christmas, such as the Christmas tree, the Christmas ham, the Yule Log, holly, mistletoe, and the giving of presents, were adapted or appropriated by Christian missionaries from the earlier Ásatrú pagan midwinter holiday of Yule. This celebration of the winter solstice was widespread and popular in northern Europe long before the arrival of Christianity, and the word for Christmas in the Scandinavian languages is still today the pagan jul (=yule). The Christmas tree is believed to have first been used in Germany sometime during the middle ages.

Rather than attempting to suppress such popular pagan feast days, Pope Gregory I encouraged Christian missionaries to give them a Christian reinterpretation, while permitting most of the associated customs to continue with little or no modification.The give and take between religious and governmental authorities and celebrators of Christmas continued through the years.

Places where conservative Christian theocracies flourished, as in Cromwellian England and in the early New England colonies, were among those where celebrations were suppressed.

Since the customs of Christmas celebration largely evolved in Northern Europe, many are associated with the Northern Hemisphere winter, whose motifs are prominent in Christmas decorations and in the Santa Claus myth." - Cambridge University Dictionaries

While Christianity is the worlds largest religion in numbers of adherents at roughly 2.1 billion members. There are 1.3 billion adherents of the Islamic faith and 1.1 billion secular, irreligious, agnostic, or atheists in the world; along with 1 billion Hindus, a half billion adherents of Buddism or Chinese traditional religions, and many , many others. - Numbers from the CIA Worldbook

Thus at least 3.9 Billion of the worlds people do not celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. The best estimates of UNESCO estimate that maybe as many as 20% of those people celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday.

That doesn’t even come close to a majority. (unless you live in Florida).

So while a minority of people do celebrate Christmas around the world; the WORLD does not.

Is there any wonder that they call Americans rude? There is a wide world out there with rich and varied cultures that seem undrempt of in your philosophy.

Rob

God, the world desperately needs more Jesuit trained scholars.

[ August 20, 2005, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

Wow, that's blindingly intellectually inconsistent, even for you. First you state that the whole world did not celebrate Saturnalia, then say that the whole world does celebrate christmas, but by that you don't mean every single nation. So India and China aren't part of the world? Or they're just not important or populous enough to warrant consideration? What definition of "whole" disregards two thirds of the world's population?

On top of that, your argument seems to be that the break has historically been called "Chirstmas Break" and therefore changing it is giving into rampant PC hooliganism. Except that the break has been call "Winter Break" for over twenty years according to article. What was the impetus to change it in the first place? If that impetus was to reclaim it's Christian roots, it is indeed an improper imposition of religion. The Supreme Court just decided two cases that hinged on not just the act itself, but the intent of the action taken by government agencies in regard to religion.

The people of South Kitsap, even those on the Christmas side of the issue, seem to see this in an entirely religious context. I think I'll take their perspective on it over FOXNews' (unfortunately, registration required on that link).

No, no it does not. I have too many friends who went to Jesuit high schools. Oddly enough, given the best training in philosophy and critical thought available in American high schools, not one of them is a practicing Catholic.

Of all the things wrong in this country or world (which apparently are one in the same for some posters), this one would be down near the bottom of the importance scale. If only some of us were as passionate about what are undoubtedly the bigger problems in the world.

By the way, I went to Catholic elementary school and we always called it Winter Recess. 30+ years later and we're still kicking. And wasn't a longer break encouraged (or perhaps even ordered) during the oil crisis in the late 70's? I seem to remember getting only a week to 10 days when I was really little. So maybe we should call it Oil Break.

Seriously, we are at war. Their are people starving to death in Africa. Drugs, AIDS, cancer, homelessness, crime, pollution-and we're really heatedly debating what to call a couple of weeks off from school? Somewhere in the world there are millions of kids who would love to even be going to school so they could have a couple of weeks off and I doubt they'd care what it was called.

George - good points but to me the issue is bigger. This "christmas break" nonsense highlights the stridency of religious fanatics and cultists who try to shove their beliefs on everyone else.

As for the wars, AIDS and some of the other very serious problems you mentioned, it's my humble belief that many of these problems are a direct result of the influence of "religion".

Some people, like our dry drunk President, cloak themselves in the aura of god and do some pretty nasty things like start a war under false pretenses. Let's be honest, it's a religious war.

Similarly, Ronald Reagan ignored the AIDS crisis at a critical stage because of pressure from the "religious" lunatics who were his core supporters. Again, it boils down to religion -- the single greatest evil in the world.

George, your post reflects my sentiments exactly. Too many people sweat the small stuff in life and ignore the important issues. I am sorry if this sounds trite but I don't care what it is called.

Phillyrunner - maybe if we "sweated" the small stuff about the real reasons why religious fanatics would fly airplanes into buildings (poverty, arrogance,imposing our "democracy" etc...)things would be different.

And about "sweating the small stuff", isn't that what this Board is all about. People having all kinds of very strong opinions and sweating about...games? I think I even saw some beads of sweat on your forehead during some of the Eagles games. wink

JQ - One of my favorite Jesuit authors wrote that Catholics (the laity) are beginning to ignore the church hierarchy on many issues simply because religion and the faith are too important to leave up to them.

I am not a good practicing catholic. I would like to be. There are just too many of the RCC's positions that I find totally unacceptable. I would certainly not preach or proselytize to someone. i have enough problems finding my own way.

Having said that, a modern Jesuit education, regardless of religion, is the among the best and most rigorous training in philosophy and critical thought. There are far too few people today who seem to have been taught critical thinking or philosophy. Too many HS, and College, graduates end up with an empty piece of paper signifying nothing. Jesuit HS's and Colleges currently offer some of the worlds best educational opportunities; just as they have for centuries of their tradition.

R

Well put, George and Phillyrunner.

I had sixteen years of Catholic education - grammar school, high school and college. In grammar school and high school it was called Winter Recess, in college it was called Holiday Break. And nobody cared.

It seems to me insisting that it be called Christmas Recess and nothing else is just plain silly.

PS - The Earth's not flat, either.

Can't you at least come up with a more original argument? It has been the other way around for some time now. School districts in many places have for decades referred to this time off as "Christmas Break" or "Christmas Vacation" with nary a complaint. Then suddenly, under the bullshit guise of "we're offended" or "you're trying to force your beliefs on us" come the intolerant, anti-religious, ACLU-backed morons of the Left, demanding that the simple, innocent title of "Christmas Break" be retitled as "Winter Break."

THAT is forcing one's ass-backward beliefs upon the overwhelming majority of others.