Full Version: Holy Fallujah! They're Gone!
Well - they outflanked our military again. We cried wolf for so long - they all left. Why can't the miltary understand that "the enemy" here is not a convention army? This is guerilla warfare and as long as we continue to fight a "conventional" war - we will continue to get our asses kicked.
Mission accomplished, and bring it on!!!
Well, the "insurgents" aren't stupid. We pretty much put our battle plan on the front page of every newspaper and on worldwide news.
Can anyone say "Viet Nam"? Of course the insurrgents left - they don't need a specific city like Fallujah - they have the entire country to launch their attacks.
Just like in Viet Nam, this is not a fight for territory or supremacy, this is a fight to get an invading/occupying force out of their country. So all they need to do is keep us engaged, they can turn and run to regroup any time they need to.
Meanwhile, I'm sure this occupation is exactly what the Iraqi people needed:
from MSNBC:
We screwed the Iraqi people in the 80s by shoring up a tyrant, we screwed them in the 90s by not getting rid of the tyrant we created, and we screwed them again this time by not having a coherent way to actually win the damn war.
Just like in Viet Nam, this is not a fight for territory or supremacy, this is a fight to get an invading/occupying force out of their country. So all they need to do is keep us engaged, they can turn and run to regroup any time they need to.
Meanwhile, I'm sure this occupation is exactly what the Iraqi people needed:
from MSNBC:
QUOTE
Dead bodies lay on the streets of Jumhuriya, with dogs hovering around them, witnesses said. Residents said they were running out of food in a city that had its electricity cut two days ago.
...
Fallujah’s defenses have crumbled faster than U.S. commanders expected, With their command networks broken down, bands of three to five guerrillas were left fighting for self-preservation rather than as part of a larger force, officials said.
About 100 men, women and children made their way to American positions in the south of the city and gave themselves up Wednesday, an officer from the Army’s 1st Cavalry Division said. The group was to be searched for weapons and questioned, and all military-age men would be detained, the officer said.
Most of Fallujah’s 200,000 to 300,000 residents are believed to have fled the city before the U.S. assault. Civilian casualties in the attack are not known, though U.S. commanders say they believe they are low.
But we have no independent way of verifying the civilian murder count because the Americans don't count the dead that aren't considered "military." How convenient....
Fallujah’s defenses have crumbled faster than U.S. commanders expected, With their command networks broken down, bands of three to five guerrillas were left fighting for self-preservation rather than as part of a larger force, officials said.
About 100 men, women and children made their way to American positions in the south of the city and gave themselves up Wednesday, an officer from the Army’s 1st Cavalry Division said. The group was to be searched for weapons and questioned, and all military-age men would be detained, the officer said.
Most of Fallujah’s 200,000 to 300,000 residents are believed to have fled the city before the U.S. assault. Civilian casualties in the attack are not known, though U.S. commanders say they believe they are low.
We screwed the Iraqi people in the 80s by shoring up a tyrant, we screwed them in the 90s by not getting rid of the tyrant we created, and we screwed them again this time by not having a coherent way to actually win the damn war.
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CPT_Doom:
But we have no independent way of verifying the civilian murder count because the Americans don't count the dead that aren't considered \"military.\" How convenient.
Plus, since the american forces took over the hospital, there is no way to get an honest assessment on injuries to civilians or anyone else. Cover up, cover up, cover up. Oh, yeah, at least 10 Americans died yesterday...but the oil fields are secure. :mad:
But we have no independent way of verifying the civilian murder count because the Americans don't count the dead that aren't considered \"military.\" How convenient.
Don't like this war any more than anyone else, but wont complain about them announcing the invasion of Fallujah if it means alerting the civilians to give them a chance to get out.
This is an unconventional military action (war just doesn't sound right for this who thing to me) and we are training troops who may oppose us in a future confrontation, not to mention the terrorists. We have to win the minds and hearts of a majority of Iraqis to avoid that. War wont.
This is an unconventional military action (war just doesn't sound right for this who thing to me) and we are training troops who may oppose us in a future confrontation, not to mention the terrorists. We have to win the minds and hearts of a majority of Iraqis to avoid that. War wont.
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sportinlife:
We have to win the minds and hearts of a majority of Iraqis to avoid that.
So...is that when the people will start throwing flowers in the streets or is it after the 2,000th U.S. soldier dies? I'm curious about when we will know we have won the hearts and minds of these people. I guess it is when we stop being occupiers in a country that doesn't want us there. Why is it that we know what is best for the whole world but we can't even run our country right. Damn hypocrites!We have to win the minds and hearts of a majority of Iraqis to avoid that.
[ November 10, 2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: bobby78751 ]
Actually I have said "Iraqnam". Here is a link to a site for those of us who like wool when it is not being pulled over our eyes. thee anti-sheep For whatever reason (futility/apathy) the site is being archived at four years of sheep hearding
It is sad because this site didn't pull any punches and their information was accurate.
It is sad because this site didn't pull any punches and their information was accurate.
I will give you that we should not be in Iraq in the first place, but we are there now, so we have to finish the job as best we can.
I would not blame the military because all the insurgent leaders got out of Dodge-that was to be expected-we have been announcing the push into Fallujah for weeks. If they did not announce the operation and killed thousands of civilians-you would have complained. They announce it to try to save lives, letting a lot of the big wigs leave-and you complain. It's obvious that in your minds they military can do nothing right.
As for stating that the Iraqi's don't want us there, I would have to disagree. The press wants a controversy so I am sure they 'inerview' those that will stir things up. Iraq is a large country with 25 million people-an insurgency of several thousand to several tens of thousands can creat a lot of death and destruction-but it is not the majority of the country.
Right now the vast majority of the country is scared. They were terrorized for 30 years, they don't understand America and don't know if we will stay to finish the job to give them some semblance of security and freedom. The majority of Iraqi's are hedging their bets. If the insurgents chase us out-they don't want to be seen as supporting American and thereby get a bullet in the head or loose their head all together. If we put down the insurgency, have a somewhat free and fair and safe election, the majority of Iraqi's will thank us. Yes, there will always be a very loud and small minority that will hate us and continue to try to kill us and those that support us.
We are in Iraq now, so give our men and women there some support.
I would not blame the military because all the insurgent leaders got out of Dodge-that was to be expected-we have been announcing the push into Fallujah for weeks. If they did not announce the operation and killed thousands of civilians-you would have complained. They announce it to try to save lives, letting a lot of the big wigs leave-and you complain. It's obvious that in your minds they military can do nothing right.
As for stating that the Iraqi's don't want us there, I would have to disagree. The press wants a controversy so I am sure they 'inerview' those that will stir things up. Iraq is a large country with 25 million people-an insurgency of several thousand to several tens of thousands can creat a lot of death and destruction-but it is not the majority of the country.
Right now the vast majority of the country is scared. They were terrorized for 30 years, they don't understand America and don't know if we will stay to finish the job to give them some semblance of security and freedom. The majority of Iraqi's are hedging their bets. If the insurgents chase us out-they don't want to be seen as supporting American and thereby get a bullet in the head or loose their head all together. If we put down the insurgency, have a somewhat free and fair and safe election, the majority of Iraqi's will thank us. Yes, there will always be a very loud and small minority that will hate us and continue to try to kill us and those that support us.
We are in Iraq now, so give our men and women there some support.
QUOTE
We are in Iraq now, so give our men and women there some support.
It's not the men and women (at least one of whom is a good friend of mine) serving over there that I have a problem with. It is the military leaders who continue to misunderstand the mismanage this entire enterprise.
QUOTE
CPT_Doom:
And the civilian leaders, elected and appointed, who gave them the wrong enterprise to manage in the first place. One, two, three, four, how do you like Halliburton's war? QUOTE
We are in Iraq now, so give our men and women there some support.
It's not the men and women (at least one of whom is a good friend of mine) serving over there that I have a problem with. It is the military leaders who continue to misunderstand the mismanage this entire enterprise. 
Again, since we have to fight this war in as civilized a manner as we can, we will have to do things like telegraphing our moves so the women and children can flee Fallujah.
I am sure Zaqarwi dressed like a woman and got out. I am also sure he told his men--don't worry I will come back for you soon, just keep fighting. He is probably smoking a cig somewhere laughing about all those stupid morons staying behind to die.
I am sure Zaqarwi dressed like a woman and got out. I am also sure he told his men--don't worry I will come back for you soon, just keep fighting. He is probably smoking a cig somewhere laughing about all those stupid morons staying behind to die.
Oh, and I don't think the fact that Z got out of Fallujah will surprise our military men. The knew he probably would.
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auNsoccer
... we have to fight this war....
There are two schools of thought on that.
... we have to fight this war....
Hey as long as we keep fighting each other with half-truths, we spare the real enemy from truth. Absolutely no-one is bad-mouthing our troops other than those violating agreed treatment of prisoners of war.
Our troops have little choice. They signed up and are getting paid.
But hey, I'll ask my brother, a very experienced veteran of both Gulfs Wars, if he felt the flag and ribbon stickers on automobiles supporting him while he was in Iraq. Ironically, the stickers are a petroleum byproduct which further damn troops to be in Iraq. To the thinking person...are not all those flags made out of nylon which comes from oil? When you die in the service they lay you to rest and ceremoniously drape you in oil product?
I just see all the unfortunate pawns on both sides. The handling of Fallujah, well it is pretty obvious they are trying to minimize casualties on both sides. Cuz our numbers are limited.
This is the heavy edit version cuz 59 million people really are...if you need to hold on to illusions to get you through the day, try drugs. Sometimes they work for me.
edited to add the stoned Graemlin
[ November 11, 2004, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Erik G ]
Our troops have little choice. They signed up and are getting paid.
But hey, I'll ask my brother, a very experienced veteran of both Gulfs Wars, if he felt the flag and ribbon stickers on automobiles supporting him while he was in Iraq. Ironically, the stickers are a petroleum byproduct which further damn troops to be in Iraq. To the thinking person...are not all those flags made out of nylon which comes from oil? When you die in the service they lay you to rest and ceremoniously drape you in oil product?
I just see all the unfortunate pawns on both sides. The handling of Fallujah, well it is pretty obvious they are trying to minimize casualties on both sides. Cuz our numbers are limited.
This is the heavy edit version cuz 59 million people really are...if you need to hold on to illusions to get you through the day, try drugs. Sometimes they work for me.
edited to add the stoned Graemlin [ November 11, 2004, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Erik G ]
twin-2 schools of thought on what?
On what you said: "... we have to fight this war...."
The war in Iraq has never been anything but optional. Had anyone other than the cheerleading village idiot currently occupying the White House been there, the invasion of Iraq never would have happened.
Until 2001, the White House had been occupied by someone with sufficient common sense not to pay attention to the PNAC. Only a monumental nitwit would be foolish enough to listen to them. Well, you got him.
[ November 12, 2004, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]
The war in Iraq has never been anything but optional. Had anyone other than the cheerleading village idiot currently occupying the White House been there, the invasion of Iraq never would have happened.
Until 2001, the White House had been occupied by someone with sufficient common sense not to pay attention to the PNAC. Only a monumental nitwit would be foolish enough to listen to them. Well, you got him.
[ November 12, 2004, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]
When did I state that we should have gone into Iraq? However, since we are there, we need to try to make the country as secure and free as we can.
I can't tell where you are from, so I assume by your statement "well you got him" that you are not in the US.
The current occupant of the white house does not have the market on being a nit wit. Maybe if the past president got his d*ck out of an intern's mouth long enough he would have actually responded decisively after the first WTC bombing. Instead, he waits a few years and then decides to lob a few missiles and calls it a day.
Just like most American presidents, they see a problem but put off dealing with it and hope to God that nothing bad happens until the next president is in office. Well, his strategy sure worked well.
I can't tell where you are from, so I assume by your statement "well you got him" that you are not in the US.
The current occupant of the white house does not have the market on being a nit wit. Maybe if the past president got his d*ck out of an intern's mouth long enough he would have actually responded decisively after the first WTC bombing. Instead, he waits a few years and then decides to lob a few missiles and calls it a day.
Just like most American presidents, they see a problem but put off dealing with it and hope to God that nothing bad happens until the next president is in office. Well, his strategy sure worked well.
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