I have read in a few places about the Vatican's new dictionary, which describes homosexuality as being "without any social value." I certainly have ranted before on this site about my (former) church, but am more than disappointed now. The escalation of their anti-gay bigotry is frightening and somewhat inexplicable .

Advocate Article

Anyone else want to start picketing St. Matthews here in downton DC? I think just holding a sign aloft that says "I have social value" would be a good start.

Talk about a history lesson... :mad: Young people, as early as in the year 2175 will pick up a reference book like that and say, "It was 2003, and the Catholic Church was still PRINTING stuff like that?"

And, who am I to say that they won't be printing it THEN?!?!?!

My only real confusion is how you see articles here and there about how the Catholic Church is concerned about their dwindling congregations (at least in North America)...

Anyway, that's how it goes with the Vatican. Boo hoo.

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If you want (you'd have to PM me), I could put you in touch with someone who picketed with the gay rights people who were at the ianuguration of the gay movement, right after Stonewall took place.

My bright idea: It would be great to hear that she mentored you and told you how picketing was for her and her associates in the early 70's. This woman also was one of the first filmmakers (she was involved in film at the time) to produce collections of footage of the early pride parades that were seen around the world.

Good luck - however you deceide to proceed.

[ April 03, 2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

Actually, I think saying homosexuality is "without social value" is one of the least offensive things the Church has said. It seems like that's an improvement over the good old "immoral", "ungodly", and "deviant".

And not forgetting that old chestnut about homosexuals being "intrinsically evil". Well, we are, natch, but we're so much more: shoplifters, murderers and so on. Such diversity!

Now, let me say this back to you, just to make sure I have it: I, being bi, can't enjoy a brandy and an evening with my sane, healthy, wonderful lover who, during the workday, makes outstanding contributions to society and wants to make a life with me...but, someone (Black- OR White-American) who's had their 4th child on welfare and clearly cannot afford the three she's got ('cause hubby's left and is now livin' back with his "ol' girl"...) is higher than ME on the list?

Not that babies made in the missionary postition are not absolutely beautiful...but - hey, Mr. Pope, your Excellency, His Highness...whatever they call you over here in Italy...you GOTTA explain THAT ONE to me! eek!

[ April 03, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

Well, I would guess that giving birth out of wedlock is still looked down upon at the Vatican...

Do you have a reference for this, Blue? Just wondering, because I could have sworn I read not long ago somewhere that the Roman Catholic Church's American flock actually grew over the last 5 years (even as the number of priests and nuns shrank), and that there are now over 60 million Catholics (more or less) in the U.S. It was among the higher ones not caused simply by natural increase (births) as in Mormonism, but also by conversions. I'll look for the citation to back this up.

It is the constituencies of the mainline Protestant Churches that are dwindling, I believe.

fantomas, one of the problems with estimating the number of Catholics in the US is that the Church counts anyone who was ever confirmed and is not dead. That includes a heck of a lot of people (myself included) who are disgusted and fed up with the Church and no longer participating. So while their numbers may go up, I would bet the actual number of people in the pews each week is much lower.

To not be counted by the Church you have to be officially ex-communicated, which is very hard to do. I am, however, seriously considering requesting ex-communication based on this latest round of attacks on gay people.

Of course, the statement about "social value" was not the only attack in this dictionary. They also said that countries which allow gay marriages are inhabited by people with "profoundly disordered minds," and that that those who want to give gay people the same legal rights in society "deny a psychological problem which makes homosexuality against the social fabric." But my favorite is that gay people in the West have "not stopped proclaiming, often in a disproportionate if not aggressive way, their 'normality.'" (these last quote are from the Datalounge article on the subject).

We must remember that is was the Vatican in 1987 or 1988, I believe, who stated that gay people should expect physical violence from the rest of society if we insist on being vocal about our sexuality.

CPT, I'm not disputing anything you're saying.

I feel like the Church tremendous failure in protecting minors from rapacious, predatory pedophiles renders its moral pronouncements null. Their heinous acts (or inaction) on this account has cemented my vow of their degeneracy, so I take anything they say with a grain of salt (though I did agree with pope on the war in Iraq).

But then I kind of understand their stepped up outrageousness. Their failings are so elephantine that they probably feel compelled to pick scapegoats, and what easier targets than homosexuals?

Some of that's from "natural increase" (the "echo boom" of boomers having kids, meaning more kids just because more people are having them at the same time).

Another big chunk is from immigration from traditionally Catholic countries, especially Latin America and parts of Eastern Europe (most notably Poland). Without immigrants and their kids, many parishes would have shrunk, and those that have are the ones with the smallest proportion of immigrants.

Right, but my information says that even the Latino community (I'm pretty sure that this was a Washington Post article) is turning to Holiness (Pentecostal) churches.

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Here it is (100,000 to 600,000 Hispanics leave Catholicism EVERY YEAR):

"These concerns about Catholicism mirror a trend that many officials in U.S. dioceses have tracked for years: the defection of Hispanics. The Catholic Almanac estimates that 100,000 Hispanics in the United States leave the church each year, although some other experts put the number as high as 600,000. Most have moved to Pentecostal and evangelical Protestant faiths as well as Mormonism, Islam and Buddhism. Converts appear to be both men and women in equal numbers."

http://www.islamfortoday.com/americanlatinos2.htm

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Here's what I found (in addition to an article the increasing numbers of Latino Muslims in the nation):

http://www.natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives...202/032202q.htm


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12 April 1999:

http://www.jannah.org/articles/latinmuslims.html

Mariam Montalvo takes diligent notes at the Sunday afternoon Islamic lesson with the holy Koran by her side.

Here at the ILM Foundation, a new Islamic movement is being born. Yet it lies far from Mecca, where the faith was founded more than 1,400 years ago. And the language of choice for this group of Islamic followers is not Arabic. These Muslims worship Allah in Spanish.

Montalvo, who immigrated to Los Angeles from Mexico in 1996, left the Catholic faith three months ago, frustrated by what she called contradictions within church teachings and preoccupation with the saints. After research and contemplation, she took the shahada, the simple declaration of faith by which one becomes a Muslim.

"I had a lot of problems with the church. One Bible says one thing, and another Bible says something different. Then there are people who call themselves Catholics and drink and smoke," said Montalvo, 21. "With Islam, it was so pure. I found there were no intermediaries. Everything goes straight to God."

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Well, fantomas, I am hoping that this reality will diminish as we stand up and BE who we really are...and by that I mean: WILLING VICTORS.

Too many of us either are successful in life and don't wish to be out, cannor be out (for safety reasons), or just WILL NOT be out.

As this changes, and as business is affected more and more adversely when it discriminates against LGBTs and their concerns, the more we will be taken seriously.

[ April 09, 2003, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

This is not completely on topic, cut CBS is reporting that the orders for the cover-up in the Catholic sex abuse scandal came from the Vatican.

Sex Crimes Cover-Up By Vatican?

Of course the cover-up scenario was planned by the Vatican!!! The Catholic Church has been covering for rapacious pedophile priests for a long time, and Ottaviano's directive aimed to organize things so that the Church wouldn't be caught with its pants down. Fortunately it has backfired.

Succinct and well-put. fantomas, you've got another fan here. I just wish it was over something more pleasant, say, football. frown

And if you see the photos of the DC Happy Hour, you'll see that the CPT has the "presence" to do just that.

Luv ya, big guy...