New EU justice chief defends views on 'sinful' gays

I'm not surprised. He is a member of the Italian Christian-Democratic Party.
In the past he also said that homosexuality is a moral disorder.

His views of the marriage are so "old". They are degrading the role of the woman also. Women seems a second class party in the marriage.

[ October 06, 2004, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: andrea ]

I don't see this as a huge problem. I mean, would you rather have the guy say, "I see this as a sin and am going to do everything I can to outlaw it?" or just say, "I see this as a sin but am respectful of the law"? It strikes me that he said the latter and not the former (maybe not in so many words, but in spirit).

Personally, I'd rather have a politician think I am sinful but uphold my legal right to commit sin than have a politician who is willing to legislate or adjudicate according to his personal moral beliefs.

He said the latter because he couldn't say the former in front of the commission.

The problem is that he will make nothing to give equal rights.
I'm Italian and I've had him as a minister. he won't make nothing to reduce discrimination against gay people.
He is against specific laws to reduce descrimination against homosexuals, but he added that if there are some specific problems( he said "like violance against gay") he could consider make something.

The greens, the socialists,the communists and part of the liberals were disappointed by his views on this subject.

Well if he thinks marriage is necessary for women to have children he does not know much about biology, or recent sociological trends.
Sadly, too many women need to be protected FROM, not BY, their husbands.

Andrea, you know him and his history more than I do, so I will defer to you on this.

I've just found that when he was a member of the European Parliament he asked to eliminate the sexual orientation as a reason not to discrimante a person.

I think that he won't make anti-gay laws, but he certainly won't make pro-gay ones.
Hopefully I'm wrong.

The Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs committee rejected today Mr Buttiglione as Justice Commissioner (by one vote).
They also rejected the proposal to confirm him as VicePresident of the European Commission but asking to change his portfolio.

Their judgement is not compulsory. So now Mr Barroso ( the President of the incoming European Commission)could keep him in the same position.
But also if he'll keep him, he is politically harmed after this vote.

link to a BBC article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3734572.stm

[ October 11, 2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: andrea ]

Here in Italy the ruling centreright winged coalition is having a very homophobic reaction to yesterday's vote. A minister ( from Alleanza Nazionale party, former fascists)said that Buttiglione lost, because the faggots are the majprity in Europe.
The left winged parties and Ms Mussolini (Benito Mussolini's nephew) are now asking his resignation.

Other right winged MP are saying homophobic comments, like " Buttiglione should have been careful, it's well known that there (the European Parliament) all are gay" or " it was defeated by the homosex lobby, the wealthies and faggots"( wealthies and faggots in Italian it's "i ricchi e i ricchioni")

[ October 14, 2004, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: andrea ]

I would hope this nominee would get a fair hearing. I have read that he stated he believes it is sinful, but not illegal and his job would be to enforce the EU's laws. His religious beliefs would not interfere with his duties.

Do not be against this guy just because of his religious beliefs. Separating one's religious and political lives can be done, John Kerry does it every day. He has stated that he believes life begins at conception, but he is pro-choice.

$856Million Fine for MSFT. Right.

The next day in a radio interview he said he would not support legislation that ran counter to his morality.

[ October 14, 2004, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: andrea ]

[ October 14, 2004, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: andrea ]

found this

Europe Controlled By 'Faggots' Italian Cabinet Member Asserts

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/10/101304euSlur.htm

gee, is it time yet to start a boycott of Italy

list of Italian consulates

http://www.italianheritage.org/embassy_consulates.htm

[ October 14, 2004, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: theodoresdaddy ]

He refused to apology. The VicePresident of Cabinet Mr. Fini (from the same party of the Cabinet Member) supported him saying that the critics from the opposition are an exageration.
Mr Fini in the past said that homosexuals should not teach to children. Just to show what type of person is.

I read the article and the nominated EU minister did not make those comments, so I am not sure of the relevance. I thought he was not a member of the EU parliament and does not vote on legislation?? If i am wrong, i beg for mercy.

My belief is, he should be given the benefit of the doubt-unless it can be shown that he won't perform his job according to EU laws. From what I read, he said he would enforce EU laws.

The nominated EU minister (Buttiglione) may not have made those comments but he clearly holds the same beliefs as Tremaglia, who the article points out "has close ties to US President George W. Bush"....Tremaglia's quote is one of the most vile I've ever heard from ANY political leader when he said, "I called them faggots and I repeat it. I'm a Bergamo man and I don't go around there saying 'gay', I say 'faggots' because that's what we call them where I'm from. There's no point in philosophizing about it, I'm against (homosexuality) and those that aren't, well that's their business"....how Berlusconi can steadfastly refuse to fire him for that statement defies belief -- the only viable explanation, of course, is that Berlusconi shares the same deplorable views.

You can continue to support this trio (Buttiglione, Tremaglia and Berlusconi) all you want, auNsoccer, but they ALL represent the same hateful, bigoted group that if allowed to stay in power will only result in increased violence and abuse towards the entire gay community in Italy -- if not worldwide, for that matter....and does it come as any surprise that the latter two have "close ties to W", who I have little doubt utters the same bulls**t behind closed doors. :mad:

~Joe

[ October 14, 2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: gamecock ]

Did I ever say I supported that trio?? I don't believe I did, so please don't put words in my mouth or keystrokes to my fingers.

auNsoccer, I was not trying to put words in your mouth (or keystrokes to your fingers ) -- I was primarily referring to your earlier post where you said, "I would hope this nominee would get a fair hearing...his religious beliefs would not interfere with his duties...do not be against this guy just because of his religious beliefs."

Correct me if I'm wrong (or if your views have changed in light of the recent quotes mentioned in that 365gay.com article) but considering the magnitude of the hate-filled statements made by Buttiglione's cronies (which are as anti-gay as I've ever heard) and the adament refusal by Berlusconi to fire Tremaglia for what is clearly a reprehensible act, your posts struck me as far too lenient towards ANY one of this bigoted trio.

~Joe

I don't know when those quotes were made-the article says 10/13-I would assume the idiot made them early this week. If that is the case, maybe the EU nominee has repudiated them and those remarks will be in another article. I have learned from past experience that what is written is not always the whole story and sometimes can be misleading or down right wrong. If the EU nominee is a bigot and cannot enforce EU laws in a fair manner, I hope he is rejected.

If you are referring to Tremaglia's quotes, they were made this tuesday (using the official papers of the Cabinet). Buttiglione said more or less that the words used by Tremaglia were an exageration (later I will find the exact quote).

You're right, Buttiglione was not member of European Parliament. I said he interfered with European Constitution, because I read it somewhere and I assumed he was a member of the parliament. But I was wrong. I searched where I read it and it was when he was Cabinet Minister of the European Affairs..

here's an article from British newspaper "The Guardian":
http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,...1325771,00.html

[ October 15, 2004, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: andrea ]

Today the EU Parliament had to vote yes or no to Mr Barroso's Commission.
Buttiglione was not the only member of the Commission who was criticized by the Parliament's various Commitees.

The Socialists, the Greens and the Communists thretened to vote against the whole Commission.
The Liberals were decisive for the result of the vote.
Yesterday the majority of the group (50 "no" against 23 "yes")decided to vote against the whole Commission.
Also most of the Eurosceptics MP's were ready to vote against.
The Popoulars and another right winged group 8not very large) were for the "yes" to the Commission.
Some left winged governments (British and German)tried to convince their MPs not to vote against, but they failed. British Commissioner Peter Mandelson (who is gay) defended Barroso yesterday saying Barroso couldn't recostructing the Commission. He also met the Lobaour's MPs to try to convince them not to vote against. Only 3 (out 19) agreed.

So Mr Barroso realized that he had not enough votes to win the vote and today he asked the Parliament to delay the vote.
The Parliament accepted his request. The vote will probably take place in November.
Now he have to make some changes to the Commission(he couldn't go again in front of the Parliament with the same Commission, he needs to make some moves at least) and Buttiglione is risking to be at least moved to another portfolio.

This is the first time that something like this has happened.

[ October 27, 2004, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: andrea ]

Right, so the current Commissioners will stay in office into November, even though their terms are supposed to come to an end.

The options are for Buttiglione to be shifted to a less sensitive portfolio, or for Italy to nominate someone else in place of him. Those in the know seem to think there will have to be at least a couple of other shifts among the 24 Commissioners, to save face and at least create the appearance this was not just about Buttiglione.

Some are saying this demonstrates the coming of age of the European project and European democracy. As a Euro-skeptic, I think it points out the flaws of their system of requiring an up-or-down vote on the entire 24-Commissioner panel, as distinguished from the way we confirm Cabinet Secretaries in America.

It's a victory of democracy in the sense that EU Parliament (which is elected by people) defeated the Commission.
Certainly I agree that the system of approval of the Commission has its flaws.
How does the system to confirm Cabinet Secretaries in America work?

The President nominates Cabinet Secretaries and they are confirmed by the Senate, one by one. It's unusual for a nomination to be rejected, but it does occasionally happen.

What rubs me the wrong way about the European approach is this "quota" system where each Member State gets to nominate one Commissioner. It doesn't seem fair, nor in the best interest of the people, that a small state like Estonia, which may have a very limited pool of qualified talent, nonetheless is assured of one Commissioner, the same as large states like Germany, the UK, etc., which may have many better qualified people to be considered for the jobs.

Under both parties, the cabinet in the US tends to reflect at least a degree of geographic, ethnic and gender diversity, but there is no need for rigid quotas to accomplish this.

Great, we have the gay-hating bigot Bushmonkey and the EU has Rocco Buttiglione. What a pair!

yes, I understant your concerns. The quota system is used to represent all members in the Commission. The little states would complain if they were excluded from the Commission. Now with 10 new members, they had to create new portfolios to have place for everyone.
The fact that some countries havn't a qualified talent is present also in this Commission. The Hungarian Commissioner appointed to the Energy portfolio was rejected by the EU Parliament COmmitee, because he doesn't know anything about this subject. He wasn't able to answear some questions.
And I know that it's Mr Barroso who decides teh portfolio assigned by the COmmissione named by the national governments, but it's sure that the states make pressure to have the portfolio they want. And at the end they end up putting an unqualified person to deal with a ceratin portfolio. It's Buttiglione's case. It could have been a good Commissioner in an another portfolio, but not in this one.

Buttiglione has resigned today from his place as Commissioner.
The Italian government will have to indicate an another name now.

[ November 06, 2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: andrea ]

Yesterday Buttiglione declared the following:
"Non discriminazione sì, ma privilegiare l’omosessualità come stile di vita da propagare e diffondere con l’appoggio del potere pubblico no”.

The translation is something like " non discrimination, yes, but to privilage homosexuality as a lifestyle to diffuse and spread with the help of the public power, no".

So he considers homosexuality as something which could be spread.

Thank God the EU Parliament stopped him.

Discouraging to know that homophobes around the world have taken up the "special rights" nonsense to justify denying us the same rights they already have. But a relief to know that there are still a lot of people who see through that. Italy has an enduring, unfortunate history of flirting with fascism. Hopefully, Europe will again reject it.

[quote]sportinlife:
[ [/quote]Italy has an enduring, unfortunate history of flirting with fascism. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Gay Rights' situation in Italy is pretty sad. It's one of the worst between West European countries. We don't have even civil unions (most of the European countries already have them).
An opnely gay MP presented a bill to introduce civil unions (following the French's model), but the Parliament has not even started to discuss it and probably won't discuss it. No chances to be approved, btw.
Also with a change of government (now we have a centre-right winged coalition)would improve the situation too much. In the centre-leftwinged coalition there's a party with catholic tradition (La Margherita) and it's against civil unions for gay couples (some of the members of that party favours them, but it seems that the majority is against).

Andrea, since you are from Italy I have a question. It is a little off topic. It has to do with worker rights. I work for a bike shop in Minneapolis that is worker owned. We are trying to adhere to a strict sweatshop free policy. We have started with clothing. We sell Italian-made saddles (Selle Royal, Selle San Marco, Selle Italia) and those fancy water bottle cages. Campagnolo, of course. Personally I wear Castelli clothing when I wear plastic. The clothing in my experience is very nice. Do you know of any conflicts of interest? Do any of the international companies practice unsafe politics? Are there any manufacturers we should avoid? Thanks in advance for your input.

I am not an expert about this issue.
I googled to try to find if they are somehow avoiding sweatshop free policy.
I didn't find nothing. If I find something later I'll let you know.

Much appreciated. Thanks for your time.