Just read an interesting piece in the nytimes about Warner's prayer meetings/religious discussions in the locker room with teammates. Apparently it hasn't detracted from team harmony or performance. Personally I don't think I'd want to be a receiver who might be slighted on the field because I expressed strong disagreements with the guy who decides whether the ball comes my way. Guess the Rams receivers are cool with the situation.

There was an interesting column a while back in the NYT. The writer was Jewish, and played high school football somewhere in Texas or the South on an otherwise all-Christian team. He said that he thought he'd feel a bit excluded or weird at first because the guys got so into their team prayers during practices, in the locker room, on the field. Instead, he developed a great appreciation for the prayers. The prayers forged a bond, demonstrated their unity of purpose, and made him feel much closer to his teammates, not the other way around.

Every once in a while, you see footage of a team's prayer in the locker room or on the field before a game, and it's clear that these prayers are taken very seriously. I'd have to think I'd be a bit put off by Warner's PTLing if were a Rams player, but it seems no one is.

I don't understand how the Jewish writer appreciated the Christian prayers in the southern locker room. Christians end all prayers in the name of Jesus Christ.
Jews don't believe in the diety of Jesus,and don't even believe that He was a prophet (as Muslims
do).If I were that writer,I would definitely feel left out and would not want to join in prayers involving a diety I didn't believe in.

Fundamentalist Christians also believe that if someone doesn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior,they will spend all eternity in the lake of fire
(hell).Many of them are so intolerant,that they don't consider Roman Catholics,
Orthodox Christians,and Mormons
as Christians.Why? because these
other denominations have extra
biblical beliefs,aside from professing Jesus as the Son of God.

I was raised as a Catholic,and have my own version of Catholicism which I follow.I don't agree with with some of the things the Church does & says.
I don't shove my religious beliefs down other people's throat and don't want them to shove their beliefs down mine.

I used to like Kurt Warner a lot
because of his hot looks and talent as a QB,but his pushy Christianity is becoming quite obnoxious to me.

Amen Bucsman. Enough Kurt, shut up. The audience is here for football not sermons. He is hot and he knows it. Keeps that 3 day beard. VANITY Kurt, now which sin is that?

[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
Personally I don't think I'd want to be a receiver who might be slighted on the field because I expressed strong disagreements with the guy who decides whether the ball comes my way.

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Come on now - you think that Warner will not pass the ball to you because you disagree with him on religious grounds - GET REAL!!!!!!!

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: copman ]

[quote]Originally posted by copman:
Come on now - you think that Warner will not pass the ball to you because you disagree with him on religious grounds - GET REAL!!!!!!!

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Is Marshall Faulk a born-again Christian?


[quote] I used to like Kurt Warner a lot
because of his hot looks and talent as a QB,but his pushy Christianity is becoming quite obnoxious to me.

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Kurt's "pushy Christianity" has never been a problem to me. He's not imposing his faith on everyone. Sure he utters "Praise the Lord" after every victory, but what's wrong with that? I hear people say "Thank God" everyday; Warner is no different.

Tzeile 29,

One thing is to thank God for your success in something,but with Kurt,it's become like a repetitive mantra after every Rams victory - it goes something like this: "Praise the Lord",
"I want to praise my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ".

After a Rams' loss,I've never heard him say something like "I want to praise the Lord for helping us play as hard as we did,despite our loss." Besides,I'd love to have and apparition of the big JC,to ask
Him if He's that interested in football.

Thumper,that 3 day five o' clock shadow Kurt sports on his handsome face still gets me all excited.The man is a major HUNK,so I'll just try to separate his HOT looks from the Bible thumping.

[quote]Originally posted by copman:
Come on now - you think that Warner will not pass the ball to you because you disagree with him on religious grounds - GET REAL

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Folks around the world are killing each other over religion. I don't think Saint Warner would be above shunning someone with whom he's uncomfortable.

BucsMan, believe me, I wish I could find the link since it really surprised me that the Jewish writer would feel such a bond and unity over Christian prayers. But let's not forget that this guy was sharing his individual experience. It could turn out quite differently for others.

A bit off topic, but kind of not really, I had lunch today with one of my born-again Christian friends. We hadn't seen each other in a long time, and it was nice because he was so happy to see me. He grabbed me and hugged me right there in the restaurant, something my liberal/more secular straight buddies are reluctant to do. During lunch I was reminded of just how good a person this guy is. He has the kindest heart of anyone I know. When I hear some of the hatred and anger from folks on this board, and a lot of gay men in general, toward born-again Christians, it really makes me sad.

[ June 24, 2005, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: RamsFan ]

[quote]..I certainly think a religious ballplayer is a much better role model for kids than a player who abuses drugs.[/QB]

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The implication that those are the only two alternatives is exactly what worries me. I have my personal faith and I don't evangelize in the workplace or "do drugs". I'm glad the Warners are happy with their beliefs. I believe the best way to promote what you believe is to live it. Period.

[ June 24, 2005, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: RamsFan ]

[quote]Originally posted by BoSoxRudy:
When I hear some of the hatred and anger from folks on this board, and a lot of gay men in general, toward born-again Christians, it really makes me sad.

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Why do you suppose that's so? It's my perception that many (most?) born-again Christians feel hatred and anger toward me (and a lot of gay men in general).

Tough call: We were about to move this thread to the Non-Sports-Related forum, but since the subject is Kurt Warner and football field evangelism, let's try to stay on-topic here. Interest in further discussion of gay men and Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc would warrant a new thread in another forum. Thanks.

[quote]Originally posted by redsoxbreath:


Why do you suppose that's so? It's my perception that many (most?) born-again Christians feel hatred and anger toward me (and a lot of gay men in general).

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So those two wrongs will somehow make a right? Sorry, but I must disagree. I think it just gives some people in both camps a lot of short-term satisfaction at great long-term cost.

You say that's your perception, but is that your experience? Through my two friends, plus my mom and aunt both have a few born-again Christian friends, I've gotten to know a lot of BACs. Pretty much across the board, they are among the nicest, kindest people I have ever known. Some of my friends' friends and all of my mother's friends know I'm gay, yet they treat me just like anybody else. Even if they believe that my sexuality is depraved and sinful, I would like to think that on some level, it registers with them that me and my sexuality are doing no harm no anyone. I know that my two BAC friends' attitudes about gays/lesbians have changed A LOT since they got to know me. Does this change the world? If so, then very slowly. But I think it's the only way to effect any real change.

I have to admit, I didn't always feel this way, so I can see where you're coming from. My guess is that some of Warner's teammates were put off by the way he wore religion on his sleeve. But by all accounts, it seems the guy actually practices what he preaches, and whoever may have been put off initially saw that.

[ June 24, 2005, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: RamsFan ]

There is a lot of healing which has to take place between born again Christians and the gay community.Some (not all) of these "Christians" have said some pretty mean things about us and have made life difficult for us,too.I'm old enough to remember
Anita Bryant and her crusade against gays in Miami,in the 70's.There are also the September 11th comments by Falwell and Robertson,plus countless instances I can't recall right now.We as gays have taken a lot of shit from "born agains".
I'd like to meet the loving and
giving ones towards gays.So far,I haven't been blessed enough to meet any.What I've heard a lot from them,is that gays are going to hell if we don't repent and accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and savior.This is my final comment on the subject,since it really belongs on another thread.

I'll go along with BoSoxRudy and RamsFan -- If Warner's faith and evangelism are based on a loving concept of JC, and not on vilifying and condemning those who don't fit their mold, then I have no problem. In fact, it's probably a good thing. But the first word uttered about "homosexuals" needing to change in order to "be saved" and I take it all back. ( )

I wish we could have stuck to whether evangelism has a place in the locker room of a pro football team. Whether evangelists are sincere or not is a matter between them and whatever religious authority they recognize. But whether I am compelled to hear a sermon at work is another. I can walk away from this thread or choose to go to a place of worship, or not to, more or less without penalty. But if I object to my QB proselytizing constantly, am I going to be considered the one causing disharmony in the team. I don't wish to promote a "gay lifestyle" in the lockerroom, why should I have to listen to someone promote their version of a "christian" lifestyle.

[quote] Within some locker rooms, religious expression can turn divisive. The Jaguars had to deal with an internal rift over outspoken Christians on the team trying to "save" non-Christians. No such problem apparently exists with the Rams, who appear to be a cohesive team despite their success and varied personalities.

"It's not something that segregates our team," Warner said. "It's not like, ‘If you're not Christian, I'm not going to hang out with you.' And guys that aren't Christian don't say, ‘If that's what you're all about, I'm going to stay away from you.'

"We're all brothers and we're all part of a big family and we treat it that way. Even when you're in a family, you don't always enjoy the same thing your brother enjoys, but you still love him nonetheless. That's the way this team feels. We respect each other."

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warner has faith in a higher authority

I think winning has alot to do with it not being divisive. Also, Warner produces. his teammates are able to put aside any ill-will they may feel for the sake of the team goal.

But other less successful athletes (Chad Curtis comes first and foremost to mind) has alienated teammates wherever they go. Curtis was constantly trying to convert teammates. If Warner is not cramming his religious beliefs down his teammates throats, that also makes it easier for them to handle.

Thanks for the interesting link, tzeile29.

The story mentions Eugene Robinson, whose teammates had nicknamed him "the Prophet". The night before Super Bowl XXXIII, he was busted for soliciting oral sex from an undercover.

Falcons' Robinson apologizes to family, team - AP 1Feb99

He had been a four-time NFL Man of the Year for his extensive community work. Sadly, Athletes in Action made him give back his Bart Starr Award for "outstanding character and leadership in the home, on the field and in the community." Robinson retired from the Carolina Panthers a couple of years ago; presumably he's still doing his ministry thing outside the locker room.

The Bledsoes seem to have a different way of spreading a positive message. Drew's father Mac encourages Parenting with Dignity apparently without requiring a declaration of religious affiliation.

This quote from former Patriot Sam Cunningham probably says better than I can why the Rams have managed to win regardless of what his teammates actually think of Warners evangelism:

"We've got to respect each other," he recalls saying. "We're here to do one thing: that's to play football. You've got to at least trust each other for these three or four hours. I don't have to like you, I don't have to live with you, I just have to play with you.

"In order for the team to work, you have to work together. On this football field, in order to do well and flow, we've got to trust one another. If we don't, we'll fall. That's why dynasties never stay dynasties."

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

Alarm bells go off whenever I see a well known athlete thanking his "personal savior" for his victory. It is telling the rest of the world that he is one of the chosen people, and indirectly - the rest of you are going to hell. These people are extremely dangerous to personal liberties, because they use their fame and success to influence others (especially the young). The bottom line is, regardless of all the talk of "love" - these people do not want gay people to exist - at least not in their present form.

So far - Rams 3, Patriots 17 in the 4th quarter.

Looks like this time around,Jesus is on the side of the underdogs.

I think jesus sat back, propped up his feet poured a glass of red wine, munched on some fish 'n chips and enjoyed the game along with the rest of us.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:

...I did believe He blessed me with the talent to be able to do it on my own.
[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

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Right On - Ump - I agree- I'm a proud gay man & my God loves me-straight OR gay.

Doing my best Edward G. Robinson: "Where's your Messiah now?"

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

Damn it george Vikingfan, you beat me to it. Great minds think alike.

[quote]Originally posted by George_vikingfan:
Doing my best Edward G. Robinson: "Where's your Messiah now?"

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I know this is a joke, but still....

Call me squeamish or whatever, but making fun of someone's faith is uncool. Totally not funny.

Different strokes I guess. I justcan't take somebody giving praise to his Lord seemingly by rote very seriously.

How did you know it was pure rote.

Praying the rosary is rote. Hell, I'm a Catholic.

[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:

What he does in the locker room is of no concern to you,

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What he says on national TV is. But that's why God invented remote controls.

[quote]Originally posted by George_vikingfan:
Doing my best Edward G. Robinson: "Where's your Messiah now?"

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

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Why does it bother you so much what Kurt Warner believes? - he has a right to his opinion as do you -is it just that the news media asks his opinion & doesn't ask you for yours?

I couldn't care if Warner prayed to a Coke bottle. I just don't care for the automatic "Praise Jesus" when the microphone is put in front of them. To me it just sounds like "Stepford Disciple". As for the media not being interested in my beliefs, I know that if I were a public person, I wouldn't use that platform to tell people my religious beliefs anymore than I would tell them what my preferred sexual position is. Some things are private in my opinion. Publicizing it just devalues it.

And I guess I could ask why does it bother you that it bothers me?

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: George_vikingfan ]

Automatic? What the hell are you talkin' about?

Oh yeah, "Praise God the Patriots won!". That's pretty automatic.

Well obviously I am not talking about tonight's game. Automatic when the Rams have won is what I am talking about. When the first thing out his mouth is not about the coach or the game, but Jesus-that to me sounds phony.

Jeez guys, take a pill! It doesn't bother you, it annoys me. I'm just as entitled to be bugged by it as you are to not be.

Well, juding by the outcome of the game, I guess God made the choice as to what should or should not be said in the lockerroom..

[quote]When the first thing out his mouth is not about the coach or the game, but Jesus-that to me sounds phony.

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I'm sorry, but you sound a tad judgemental.

[quote] Oh yeah, "Praise God the Patriots won!".

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tzeile29, please reference your quotes. I don't see it here, nor elsewhere. Did someone say that?

No, Seph, it was just an example.

I tried to reach a middle ground with you on this when I said we are both entitled to feel the way we feel. Now I'm judgemental. Okay I give!

Let's just agree to disagree because we obviously aren't going to agree on this ever. Nor will our opinions change what Warner or anybody else says the next time they are at a microphone in a public forum.

although I only saw it once, after watching hour after hour after hour of post-game post mortems, Kurt Warner did indeed thank God for his talent and the opportunity to play football, even though they lost. Include me amongst those who wondered if Warner thanked God after losses. I was wrong. I guess he does.

The 1st Amendment giveth, and the 1st Amendment pisseth thee off when you don't like what the other guy has to say. What I'm about to present might be an imperfect analogy, I'll admit, but work with me here ...

What if an openly gay athlete thanked his boyfriend or partner after every big win? The glorious day when (if?) Joe, gay superstar QB, thanks Johnny for all his love and support, without which Joe NFL Superstar wouldn't be the person and player he is today ... [fill in the rest however you wish], a lot of people in this country will be screaming with outrage. We gay guys, of course, will be screaming with cheers and support. We would widely defend Joe's right to talk about Johnny, and laud him for being so open about their relationship. Joe's critics would be screaming about how wrong it is that Joe keeps shoving his sex life in everybody's face, and that they don't appreciate Joe's politics and lifestyle being rammed down their throat.

Having said all that, do I enjoy being sermonized? Are you f***in' kiddin' me? Evangelicals have every right to their religious beliefs and to free speech. I have every right, if I so choose, to tune them out.

[quote]Include me amongst those who wondered if Warner thanked God after losses. I was wrong. I guess he does

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.

Yeah, I also saw Kurt's interview. Some of the guys here would've been pissed if they saw the interview. Kurt was asked about the Rams'turnover and his response was something like "I'd like to thank and Praise my Lord Jesus for giving us another chance to be here, although it wasn't a winning effort, blah, blah, blah...

Others view it as rather mechanical, but I think it is something Kurt feels he needs to do.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

Yeah, but Rudy ...

I'd be personally thrilled to have Joe come out and thank Johnny on national television. However, if he continued to do it game after game, season after season, I'd probably wanna be first in line to bitch slap the guy. After a while, it's no longer meaningful, just tiresome. And while, unlike some other guys on here, I believe his proselytizing is utterly sincere, I personally prefer someone who simply lives their faith rather than attempting to foist it on others at every available opportunity.

patterson, I'd be standing right behind you in the bitch-slap queue, believe me. But it doesn't seem that either one of us think that Warner, or this hypothetical Joe, would deny them their right to say what they have to say.

Back to the topic of a teammate's desire to bitch-slap Warner after hearing his nonstop evangelizing week in and week out ... there certainly is a good chance that there's a rookie or a second-/third-stringer on the team who absolutely can't stand hearing the Sermon on the Mount all the time. I imagine it could be difficult for Jimmy Nobody to approach the MVP superstar quarterback and tell him to shut the f*** up! But first of all, Warner seems to be a truly nice, humble human being, and I wouldn't eliminate the possibility of talking to him directly, no matter how lowly your status on the team. If you really feel you can't do that, you could talk to someone in management or the coaching staff in confidence and discuss the problem. If you're bothered by it, and it turns out other teammates are too, then it's a problem that they can address. If it turns out that you're bothered by it but your 44 teammates really like it, well, suck it up because it's not all about you.