Oh, SportsFan, I understand EXACTLY what I read and what you meant by it. Don't you dare try to patronize me.

Nascar:

You're a buffoon and an intellectual dwarf. The two terms are clearly not equivalent in power, derision, or history. Your cavalier use of the "N" word is unwarranted. And by the way, it's "D-E-R-O-G-A-T-O-R-Y."

Yella Dawg, you can't get offended if someone use the word Nigger, when you were the first one to bring it up. You should not have opened Pandora's Box by freely using the term poor white trash. Sportz Fan was right to bring up the "N" word, as you so beautifully put it. You Black boys use the word "Nigger" all the time amongst yourselves. SportzFan was right to go after you.

[ December 18, 2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Nascar007 ]

Black Boys? humm..Black Men if they use that word.. use it as a term of affection..NASCAR.. just so you will know.. but a lot of black men especially of a certain age..find it so offensive that words cannot describe their anger at it.. the scary thing about NASCAR's postings is that Strom Thurmond spent a lifetime appealing to men just like him thru his racist and segregationist life.. I guess it just shows how things have really not changed

Yelladawg, I've agreed with most of what you've said on this thread, BUT calling somebody poor white trash is a slam at all white, working class southerners. By linking his poverty and skin color to your great-grandfather's trashiness, you are perpetuating negative stereotypes about white southerners (which are widespread in the mainstream media).

The "it's not as offensive as nigger" argument is just as weak here as it was when Dead Skin Mask used it to tell us we shouldn't be upset by Millen calling Morton a faggot. It's like saying raping somebody's not as bad as killing them, so rape is ok.

Name calling Yella? A once provocative thread has now degenerated to this.

Thanks JC for a civilized comment. Well said.

I dont think this thread was provocative at all.. it just showed that on matters of race..gay white men have so little in common with black gay men.. that its not worth talking about.. the sad thing is that Howard Dean is trying to appeal to southerners who like Nascar.. judging by the responses on this board.. they have more in common with Strom Thurmond than with him..and calling black men black boys is offensive and if you tihnk using the N-word is such a great thing..try using it in a crowd of black men and see where it gets you

I really enjoyed Page 1 of this thread. Lots of good posts by several folks.... however
This page appears to have degenerated into a microcosm of all the shit that goes on in South Carolina. I trust reason swoops in, calmer heads prevail, and we can get back to the actual topic.

I'm calling for a "time out." If you can't stick to the topic, go away until you've calmed down. This is a really intriguing topic; so much texture, so many layers, so f**kin' bizarre! ENOUGH with taking personal offense. ENOUGH with mentioning the "N" word, or Cracker, or any other foolishly ignorant word. Get over it.

We now return to the actual topic.

More than anything, I hope Essie opens up over the next few years. I'm sure there are stories that she can tell that will help assuage the venom coming from the old biddies at the LA AME. I'm sure there are stories that will help Americans understand the complexity of her plight, things about her meetings with Strom that can shed light on how any woman could keep a secret like this for so long.
People really want to know so much more about her relationship with Strom. People need to be able to bring their own sense of closure, their own understanding of what transpired between them that allowed her to remain silent. I know that the word "closure" may seem an ill fit, but this news troubles so many people, and opens so many wounds. I sense that this story has become a vicarious experience to many Americans of mixed ancestry. I think those that are most troubled by this story need to hear more from Essie to help themselves through this process.

There's an interesting blog item about the conservative black radio show host and writer Armstrong Williams. To be fair, I'd never heard of him until I read the entry on No More Mr. Nice Blog, but I think it's an interesting angle on this story. BTW, the story might jump to the archives soon, so just look under 12/19/03 to find it.

Hee.


[ December 19, 2003, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

I had to snip this out:

Sen. Thurmond leaned over and said, "You know, I have deep roots in the black community -- deep roots."

His voice softened into a raspy whisper: "You've heard the rumors."

"Are they just rumors, senator?" I asked.

"I've had a fulfilling life," cackled Thurmond, winking salaciously.

Does this sound like somebody who entered into a relationship with mutual affection and respect?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/20/national...59&partner=AOL.. UBB code and I do not agree but the New York Times on the 20th of December 2003 had an article with the white relatives of Strom Thurmond.. essentially they were saying why did she do this now?

My favorite quote is the Thurmond niece who says it wouldn't have been so bad if the affair had been with a white woman, because there wouldn't have been as much fuss.

That is correct. Had the daughter been white, there would not be the huge fuss. because the irony and hypocrisy would not be there. and! Had the woman been white, Strom would have married HER and not the woman who eventually became his wife.

The ridiculous thing is this...
Strom's nephew and great niece were saying "why is she doing this?"

By that, are they asking "why is she demanding to set her paternity straight? Why is she trying to correct her bastard/illegitimate status? and why is she not keeping quiet for the sake of our family who would like to just sweep everything under the rug and pretend that it never ever happened?"

I can't believe these are judges and Hill staffers asking these questions! They really can not be that stupid and out of touch with reality! ....... or maybe they can.......

[ December 21, 2003, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: ung ]

Ung, come on, now. Hill staffers or not, gullibility is widespread, especially when one is dealing with an icon and supposed paragon like Strom.

A number of Strom's relatives are probably extremely embarrassed that their hero--who was not only a champion of racial division and white supremacy, but also family values--practiced the very things he denounced, AND that they have BLACK relatives. Whether, as many people have noted, South Carolinians speculated and knew the truth, the fact that both Strom and Mrs. Washington-Williams maintained the official fiction allowed the white Thurmond relatives to maintain their own notions of family purity. I mean, the worst thing, according to Strom's own rhetoric, was to have the "Negro race" in Southern white peoples' homes--and yet because of his own personal choice, these Thurmond relatives now have a blood link to African-Americans. (Of course there very well may have been previous links, given South Carolina's particular racial history.)

This link offers an interesting insight into the particular time, place and legal context in which Mrs. Washington-Williams was born.

NY Times: Old Times There Were Not Forgotten



[ December 21, 2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

I think this story is fascinating. The daughter is the most compelling character in this bizarre drama. How could she sit there year after year keeping silent while daddy essentially condemned her to secondary citizenship - especially during his 1948 campaign? And if members of the black political establishment at all knew about this, why didn't they out Thurmond as the hypocritical political opportunist he clearly was.

This little girl has some explaining, or maybe some therapy, to do.

Undercenter, first, Mrs. Washington-Williams is a 78 year-old grandmother and widow, not "a little girl."

Second, black political leaders had spoken out for years about Strom's black daughter, but BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACK leaders they were not taken seriously. (An analogy would be when gay critics have outed supposedly straight figures--Jodie Foster, John Travolta, etc.--and their allegations are summarily dismissed or played down because of the belief that gay people want to claim *everyone* is gay, etc.) The white political establishment--both Democratic and Republican--in South Carolina made a point of keeping the truth under wraps. Think about it: Strom was a Democrat, became a Republican, worked with numerous staffers who would have known about his meetings with and payments to his daughter. Yet not one spoke out. Ever. Such was the "closet" of sorts maintained around this man.

Third, given the political and social contexts in which this woman was born and has lived, I'm hardly surprised by HER prolonged silence. We do not know what sorts of agreements she made with her father, who was a very powerful man, or with her mother (what if her mother made her promise not to ever out Strom?), or with Strom's family (I mean his parents and siblings, etc.), so before you jump off and say she needs therapy, maybe look at the larger context. It's not like she's some teenager living in 2003. Her fear of violence and retribution--not so much by Strom so as by white racists who wouldn't want their hero besmirched, especially during his long reign in SC, or by black ones who'd make an example of her--also should be discounted.

Mrs. Washington-Williams has lived through a time of legalized American apartheid and regular outright violence against black people, which her father's rhetoric helped to encourage. But she obviously loved the man and wanted to protect him. (And she comes from a generation of Southern blacks and whites that usually respected authority, especially the social power and political capital that someone like Strom would have possessed; the next generation, which came of age in the 1950s and 1960s, were the main ones to openly challenge the apartheid system of Jim Crow that had held sway legally in the South and often illegally elsewhere in the U.S.). So rather than subjecting her to easy analysis, perhaps think of the larger picture.

[ December 22, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

What I love about her father's other relatives' reactions is that they are the classic - "we know this stuff happens, we just don't want to have to acknowledge it." They all knew the stories, and must have suspected the truth (friends in SC tell me this has been an open secret for decades), but as long as there wasn't confirmation, they didn't have to focus on dear Sen Strom, and his politics, and his hypocrisy.

Now they have to, and the poor little lambs don't want to face the truth. It is all too typical.

Fantomas, I'm surprised I have to point this out - I'm using irony to make a point. I know she's not a "little girl" - and that she's not "some teenager living in 2003."

You tell me to "look at the larger context" of the situation, which is what I was doing by talking about the amazing fact that so many people seemed to "know" about this love child and said nothing. Outing this hypocrite four or five decades ago might have had a significant impact on the Civil Rights movement - not to mention it may have thrown this segregationist republican out on his ear rather than let him rot in the Senate for so long - that's the bigger picture.

fantomas wrote:
Mrs. Washington-Williams has lived through a time of legalized American apartheid and regular outright violence against black people, which her father's rhetoric helped to encourage. But she obviously loved the man and wanted to protect him.

Absolutely true. I'd add that any child that's told 'daddy loves you, but you can't tell the world who your daddy is' and then sits there while daddy denigrates you to millions of people, (but sends you checks) has to be effected on some level - especially if she's living in fear of (your words) "violence and retribution." Sounds like a pretty good candidate for therapy to me - or is that analysis too "easy."

I am looking at the bigger picture, as well as the toll that "bigger picture" must have taken on this - shall I say it - "little girl." So which one of us is lecturing about the forest, but not seeing the trees.

Strom- racist by day, hypocrite by night.

[ December 22, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: RazorbackTX ]

Fantomas.. I think you make a good point about looking at the historical context about the relationships between blacks and whites in the South..and I have no problem with his mixed race daughter not coming out until now..I think she is a strong African American woman and I am proud of her..I think it is just hypothetical speculation to talk about what damage she could have done to Senator Thurmond's career.. and is demeaning of the decision she made to keep silent all this time

Surprisingly, or perhaps not so, most of the comments saught out so far have come from the White side of the Thurmond family. I'd like to hear more from the other side that has now been recognized. And most of all from the deceased mother of Essie Washington-Williams. I've read that a movie deal is already being talked about. Unfortunately such headline-driven docudramas are often very poor art and even poorer history due to history's inherent complexity, but a book by a good historical author would be very interesting.

Let's not forget that Essie-Mae is a woman of a different generation than most of us here. Despite the "liberation" black folks experienced in the sixties and time since, she may have felt more discreet about it as not a suitable topic of discussion.

My grandmother had my mother out of wedlock, though she married my grandfather not too long after the birth. Mother was raised by her maternal grandparents and wasn't "returned" to her parents until she was about ten years old. Furthermore, she didn't really discover this discrepancy until after my grandmother had died at the age of 78.

Remember there is a personal experience to every great story, and the circumstance are particular to that person.

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cf...m?ItemID=16182.. I thought Cynthia Tucker wrote an awesome editorial..Faulkner and Strom Thurmond in the same article ? who would have thought that was possible

Oh, Christ on a stick! Somebody had to bring up Cynthia Tucker. Arrggghhhhh! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

sorry about that Tiger.. have a good Xmas by the way

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/26/opinion/...59&partner=AOL.. a nice article on Senator Thurmond

I thought the article was interesting as well. And the most interesting thing about it was the two lines that suggest Carrie Butler and Strom Thurmond may have had a "relationship" for 16 years. What kind of "relationship" I wonder?

I remember short guys used to be kidded about liking someone a lot taller and would respond that "when they're lying down they're all the same height." Many, if not most, people have made some very presumptive statements about the inequality of the relationship. That may be as presumptive and erroneous as the belief that all black slaves were docile and accepting of their status.

It is obvious that Carrie Butler used her relationship to get at least some financial support for their daghter. Might she have also insisted on a certain amount of dignity in the bedroom so to speak, that she was refused in public. I still want to learn more about her.

[ December 26, 2003, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

Fascinating. Research has revealed that "if any branch of your family has been in America since the 17th or 18th centuries, 'it's highly likely you will find an African and an American Indian.'"

More from the NYTimes article yesterday:

"It is incontrovertible that America is a multiracial society, from the founding father Alexander Hamilton (the son of a mixed-race woman from the British West Indies) to Essie Mae Washington-Williams, 78, a retired schoolteacher, who, the late Senator Strom Thurmond's family acknowledged last month, is his daughter. And for decades there have been questions about the possible mixed-race ancestry of Ida Stover, Dwight D. Eisenhower's mother. ... Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, whose blood lines, according to the historian Mario de Valdes y Cocom, go back to the van Salees, a Muslim family of Afro-Dutch origin prominent in Manhattan in the early 1600's."

Surprises in the Family Tree

Thanks for the link DCBucky. I e-mailed Mr. Heinigg to inquire further about his research. I've long believed that our genealogical pasts are much more racially complex than most of us realize. Though his research is limited it does suggest how much could be learned with dedication.