JQ, good post and thanks for another perspective on Xtianity. Willyboy, I think you're right too, although I've never really understood why Pilate comes in for such a rap. Sure, he was governor, but he tried to let the Jews do their own thing as much as he could without "de-rendering from Caesar," which meant they could handle their own intra-faith affairs, like this one was at the time. (Xtianity a "religion," let alone a world one? Who knew!) An early form of church-state separation, perhaps, but no reason to condemn him to infamy.
I've always had the feeling I'm missing something essential about Pilate, so please educate me if I am. Just don't strap me like the damn nun in second grade did when I raised a similar defense for Pilate at that age!
Full Version: Poll: Does God Exist?
I'm listening to an old college throwback (WHAT'S THE STORY) MORNING GLORY? by Oasis and the song "Some Might Say" has an interesting couplet that I find appropriate right about now:
"Some might say they don't believe in heaven
Go and tell it to the man who lives in hell"
"Some might say they don't believe in heaven
Go and tell it to the man who lives in hell"
QUOTE
bobby78751:
Jesus had 33 years on Earth to address this issue and He never said a single word about it.
EXCELLENT POINT I have often thought of this:If God was gonna exclude me cuz of this one point I think Jesus would have mentioned it.QUOTE
[ June 08, 2005, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: copman ]
QUOTE
God creates everything perfectly...I firmly believe to my dying breath He created me this way and I can't imagine Him saying such a thing. Plus, Jesus had 33 years on Earth to address this issue and He never said a single word about it.
Too bad he didn't have the foresight to say "Don't kill or discrimiate against the queers." It would have saved us a lot of trouble.
QUOTE
memphistn:
Too bad he didn't have the foresight to say \"Don't kill or discrimiate against the queers.\" It would have saved us a lot of trouble.
He did say " Love one another as I have loved you"
QUOTE
QUOTE
bobby78751:
And God replies: "I'm sorry that my son didn't make things clearer, but I'm telling you NOW that I did not create any homosexuals. If you participate in homosexual activity it's not because of me, it's because you're sinning. Now stop it or I'll send you to hell."
QUOTE
Joe in Philly:
What if God not only proved he existed, but spelled out once and for all what his rules are, and explicitly said \"if you're a homosexual you're going to hell unless you change your ways\"?
God creates everything perfectly...I firmly believe to my dying breath He created me this way and I can't imagine Him saying such a thing. Plus, Jesus had 33 years on Earth to address this issue and He never said a single word about it. What if God not only proved he existed, but spelled out once and for all what his rules are, and explicitly said \"if you're a homosexual you're going to hell unless you change your ways\"?
QUOTE
Too bad he didn't have the foresight to say \"Don't kill or discrimiate against the queers.\" It would have saved us a lot of trouble.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He did say \" Love one another as I have loved you\"
Too bad he didn't have the foresight to know that that wouldn't be enough. For that matter, why doesn't he just insert something saving us from discrimination in everyone's bible right now? If that happens, I'll give up being a Free Thinker immediately.
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He did say \" Love one another as I have loved you\"
QUOTE
Joe in Philly:
I'm not a fish, JIP, you can't bait me into this. QUOTE
bobby78751:
And God replies: \"I'm sorry that my son didn't make things clearer, but I'm telling you NOW that I did not create any homosexuals. If you participate in homosexual activity it's not because of me, it's because you're sinning. Now stop it or I'll send you to hell.\" QUOTE
Joe in Philly:
What if God not only proved he existed, but spelled out once and for all what his rules are, and explicitly said \"if you're a homosexual you're going to hell unless you change your ways\"?
God creates everything perfectly...I firmly believe to my dying breath He created me this way and I can't imagine Him saying such a thing. Plus, Jesus had 33 years on Earth to address this issue and He never said a single word about it. What if God not only proved he existed, but spelled out once and for all what his rules are, and explicitly said \"if you're a homosexual you're going to hell unless you change your ways\"?
I have offered up my argument and that's that.
None of you out there who believe the Bible is "God's Word" can truly say that Jesus NEVER said anything about homosexuals (although I believe the term came many years later). All we know is the Bible doesn't include any references to Jesus saying anything about gay people being an abomination. Am I to believe that the Gospels are a perfect recollection of every breathing moment of the man we know as Jesus Christ? Umm, I believe they were written years after Jesus' death...by humans...who are known to make mistakes. Who knows? Jesus may have said something negative about gays. Maybe it didn't make the final cut...although, Paul (I think he wrote it) sure seemed to focus on man-sex in that first chapter of Romans.
The Bible is a book of stories from men about their divine being. The four Gospels can't even get the same story of Jesus to mesh completely. Don't for once think that their own prejudices and falsehoods didn't make it into the final version. The bottom line is you shouldn't live your life based on a book written thousands of years ago...hell, you shouldn't even need a book to dictate right and wrong.
The Bible is a book of stories from men about their divine being. The four Gospels can't even get the same story of Jesus to mesh completely. Don't for once think that their own prejudices and falsehoods didn't make it into the final version. The bottom line is you shouldn't live your life based on a book written thousands of years ago...hell, you shouldn't even need a book to dictate right and wrong.
QUOTE
gmginsfo:
I've always had the feeling I'm missing something essential about Pilate, so please educate me if I am.
I'll give it a shot. I think that what you're missing is from sources outside the Bible. Pilate was the typical Roman governor of an outlying province. They were expected to suppress any potential uprisings immediately and this new Jewish sect (which is how the followers of Jesus were regarded) looked like trouble. Jesus was brought before Pilate, Pilate saw a troublemaker and had him crucified. There are records of other brutal suppressions by Pilate.I've always had the feeling I'm missing something essential about Pilate, so please educate me if I am.
Between the time of Jesus's death and the writing of the gospels, the Romans had to keep dealing with Jewish uprisings (resulting in the eventual destruction of the temple by the Romans). The gospel writers (especially John, who is pretty virulently anti-Semitic by today's standards) went to great pains to differentiate their movement from the Jewish mainstream so as not to appear to be a threat to Rome. In doing this, they shifted the blame onto the Jews ("Let his blood be on us and our children") and away from Pilate and the Romans ("I find no case against him [Jesus].")
[Note the vague wording in John 19:16-18: "Then he [Pilate] handed him over to them [the Jews] to be crucified. So they took Jesus...There they crucified him" The strong implication is that the Jews crucified Jesus. That absolutely could not have happened. If it had been a Jewish punishment, Jesus would have been stoned to death. Crucifixion was a Roman thing.]
The ultimate irony, of course, is that Christianity eventually became the official religion of the Roman Empire, starting under Constantine.
[ June 08, 2005, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: willyboy ]
Just got onto this thread - it's fascinating (and quite civil - color me impressed).
I answered that I believe God exists - but it's a close call for me. My own, admittedly amateur, study of cosmology and the "theory of everything" does lead me to believe our universe is not only so amazingly complex, but also part of a larger, possibly non-understandable structure, that there had to be a "power" behind it. Is/Was that power "God"? I really don't know. I don't even know if that power still exists.
What I do know is that all of us are mere humans, and while we have the capacity for exploration and understanding, it is unmitigated hubris to claim we can understand the mind of God, assuming He exists, and His plan/process/structure of the multiverse (term for the structure in which our universe exists). All religions have been created by, interpreted by and practiced by humans, and we are not perfect. While nearly all of them have really good points, too often the entire religious discussion is about who is "right" and I think that's a hopeless argument to get into.
In some ways, many Christians have become like the more close-minded Jews of Jesus' time - they focus on the trappings of religion rather than its soul. To a lot of folks, the quality of your life and what you did with it is not important; what is important is which building you pray in and the words you use to pray. Yet the story of the Good Samaritan (which was considered the most important one in the Gospels by one of my CCD teachers) explicitly rejects this rigidity - the Samaritan was the "best" person because of his actions, not his religious affiliation. Yes Jesus also said "I am the way..." but that could also be interpreted to mean "follow my teachings to reach God, not the story of my divinity."
On the flip side, I also believe we must accept the consequences and ramifications of the idea that God does not exist. It is entirely possible that, as amazing as our universe/multiverse really is, we are all simply the product of a vast, recurring natural phenomenon that does not have a Creator. That should not change the value of any religious teaching, however, for creating a society in which the best of humanity is encouranged.
I think human society is evolving in much the same was as physical evolution occurred, but with a different catalyst - the quest for understanding. For many centuries, we likely needed the idea of God (or gods, from earlier times) to create a cohesive society. But one of the greatest things about the American Revolution (and the Enlightenment in general) is that it created a set of ideals that were independent of any one religion and made them into a sort of secular replacement. It is that achievement which allows us to order society without an overarching understanding of God (although Canada and parts of Europe may be better examples of this today than the US). I think it's a necessary step in the evolution of humanity.
I answered that I believe God exists - but it's a close call for me. My own, admittedly amateur, study of cosmology and the "theory of everything" does lead me to believe our universe is not only so amazingly complex, but also part of a larger, possibly non-understandable structure, that there had to be a "power" behind it. Is/Was that power "God"? I really don't know. I don't even know if that power still exists.
What I do know is that all of us are mere humans, and while we have the capacity for exploration and understanding, it is unmitigated hubris to claim we can understand the mind of God, assuming He exists, and His plan/process/structure of the multiverse (term for the structure in which our universe exists). All religions have been created by, interpreted by and practiced by humans, and we are not perfect. While nearly all of them have really good points, too often the entire religious discussion is about who is "right" and I think that's a hopeless argument to get into.
QUOTE
If all roads lead to God, what's the point of the Cross? Why did Jesus weep in the Garden of Gethsemene? Did He say, \"Look, this miserable horrible death is just my way of doing things--go ahead and find your own path.\" I think Jesus went to the Cross because He believed it was the only way to reconcile Creation and God.
My take on Jesus, after years of Catholic teaching mind you, is that Christians focus far too much on the martyrdom of Jesus, and not enough on his actual teachings. I've had several discussions with Jewish friends of mine who, once we got past the anti-Semitic problems of Christianity, agreed that Jesus, even if he were not divine, was a pretty good rabbi, and followed the Jewish tradition of intellectual debate and exploration of the teachings and ramifications of religion. In some ways, many Christians have become like the more close-minded Jews of Jesus' time - they focus on the trappings of religion rather than its soul. To a lot of folks, the quality of your life and what you did with it is not important; what is important is which building you pray in and the words you use to pray. Yet the story of the Good Samaritan (which was considered the most important one in the Gospels by one of my CCD teachers) explicitly rejects this rigidity - the Samaritan was the "best" person because of his actions, not his religious affiliation. Yes Jesus also said "I am the way..." but that could also be interpreted to mean "follow my teachings to reach God, not the story of my divinity."
On the flip side, I also believe we must accept the consequences and ramifications of the idea that God does not exist. It is entirely possible that, as amazing as our universe/multiverse really is, we are all simply the product of a vast, recurring natural phenomenon that does not have a Creator. That should not change the value of any religious teaching, however, for creating a society in which the best of humanity is encouranged.
I think human society is evolving in much the same was as physical evolution occurred, but with a different catalyst - the quest for understanding. For many centuries, we likely needed the idea of God (or gods, from earlier times) to create a cohesive society. But one of the greatest things about the American Revolution (and the Enlightenment in general) is that it created a set of ideals that were independent of any one religion and made them into a sort of secular replacement. It is that achievement which allows us to order society without an overarching understanding of God (although Canada and parts of Europe may be better examples of this today than the US). I think it's a necessary step in the evolution of humanity.
I still don't understand the Creationist argument that the universe is so complex that it requires a creator. What level of complexity is necessary to require this explanation? If there were a creator of the universe, wouldn't the creator also be incredibly complex? Does this lead Creationists to posit a creator's creator. And a creator's creator's creator, etc.?
An interesting related story is posted on Raw Story.Raw Story
An interesting related story is posted on Raw Story.Raw Story
QUOTE
I still don't understand the Creationist argument that the universe is so complex that it requires a creator.
Well, this is not a "creationist" argument, but one that I was taught in Catholic school. The logic goes, if that which does not exist cannot cause itself to come into being, and everything that exists was created by something else that previously existed, then there must be some sort of "Self-Existant Being" (SEB) that is eternal. I don't know that I buy the whole argument, and I really didn't buy the follow up argument ("Q: Why is there only one SEB? A: Because to have more than one would be illogical), but that, I think is the basis of it. In much "Creation science" as well, the supporters look at the delicacy and complexity of animals, especially humans, and argue that they could not have occurred by random chance. I remember one Creationist math teacher I had in school (interestingly, the Catholic school I went to taught Creation in religion class and evolution in biology) mentioned the structure of the inner ear of humans. The bones are exactly the right size to assist in hearing, but without puncturing anything (like the brain) - hence they could not have evolved. I totally reject that argument, but it is one they make.
For myself, the complexity of the universe (or the multiverse, if you buy String Theory) points to our being part of something so huge and complicated, with alternative universes existing alongside our own, that there must be a force, a power, something we cannot comprehend that coordinates everything. That does not mean that force or power is "God" or that it has intelligence (after all, the moon is dead, but creates tides on earth), however.
Thanks for the explanation, CPT_Doom.
QUOTE
memphistn:
I still don't understand the Creationist argument that the universe is so complex that it requires a creator.
I don't understand that either. To me, the fact that the universe is so complex is reason to beleive that their couldn't be a creator. I could believe a creator could create a simple world, with Adam and Eve, a snake and an apple. I can believe a creator could create a world where all the animals could fit on an ark, or a man could get swallowed by a whale. But what creator would create a universe so enormous, that our world would just be a tiny, tiny tiny drop in the ocean of existence? A creator who would create life for billions of years before creating people to understand that life? Would let the majority of people believe other religions and other gods which, I believe, dooms them to Hell (isn't the First Commandment "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me?"). It seems so illogical and irrational. I believe in faith. I belive that people have spirituality. But I believe Life in its mystery and wonder are too complex to have been created. Life is changing. Life is spontaneous. Life is not the ordered, simple world of gods or goddesses, as wonderful as they may be.
I still don't understand the Creationist argument that the universe is so complex that it requires a creator.
Life exists at a certain level of entropy. Once you understand this there is no need for a God. There are forces that keep us all in line. They are not the divining of a God. In cultures dogma is created to offer explanation for the unknown and a protocol/order for civilizations. God means different things in different cultures. Again the discussion is racist and euro-centric as mostly gay white men discuss the monotheistic idea of a white jesus who is the son of a ____ that smiles upon white folk.
Does DOG exist for dyslexics?
Does DOG exist for dyslexics?
Joe in Philly, please understand even if homosexuality were a sin, God would still love us. God still loves everyone. Think of the most hated individual on the planet. God still loves that person. God will always love you, no matter what sins you may commit. He knows we are not without sin. We are human, and that is one of our inherent flaws. All God asks of us is to ask Him for forgiveness of our sins. God's love for us is unconditional.
I'm speaking hypothetically. All of what you say doesn't really apply to my hypothetical situation, in which God has been proven to exist and explicitly states that homosexuality is a sin and those who practice it will go to hell. Does a man break off his 30-year loving relationship with another man and never have sex again unless he marries a woman, and ask God's forgiveness, in hopes of going to heaven? Or does he say, "I'm sorry but I love this man and even if it's a sin I can't help how I feel" and thus burn in hell for all eternity?
I still believe God recognizes your love. Why do I believe this? Blind faith. It's tough, flies against logic, but in the end, it explains everythig, even if I can't. I don't even know you, but you are a good person whom is causing no harm with your love. I can't imagine God would condemn you to hell because you have love in your life. If God were so against homosexual love, it would have been stated in the Ten Commandments. For the folks on this planet that can't resist to judge homosexuals, the joke is on them. By their act of judgement, they are violating one of the Ten Commandments because, through their judgement of other humans, they are usurping the ultimate authority of God to pass judgement. Follow the heart that God gave you. God never makes mistakes, and he loves each and every one of his creations, regardless of their sexual orientation.
[ June 08, 2005, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: millerbeach ]
[ June 08, 2005, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: millerbeach ]
I would respond to your hypothetical a bit differently, Joe. I would ask if such a principle was His/Her intention, why was it omitted from the 10 Principles--sometimes, due to incorrect translations, called the 10 Commandments. Jewish tradition lists them thus:
--I am the Eternal your God, who brought you out of Egypt.
--You shall have no other gods before Me. Make no graven images.
--You shall not use the name of the Eternal for nothing.
--Observe the Sabbath and keep it holy
--Honor your father and mother
--You shall not murder
--You shall not commit adultery
--You shall not steal
--You shall not bear false witness
--You shall not covet
I would have to conclude that the entity speaking to you was a false god and could (in fact, should) be ignored. Of course, Jewish law teaches that, following the flood, we received the seven basic pillars of human civilization. Those Noahchite Laws are:
--Don't murder
--Don't steal
--Don't worship false gods
--Don't be sexually immoral
--Don't eat the limb of an animal before it is killed
--Don't curse God
--Set up a system of justice and bring offenders to justice.
The fourth one could cover homosexuality, but it's so vague...
~Adam
--I am the Eternal your God, who brought you out of Egypt.
--You shall have no other gods before Me. Make no graven images.
--You shall not use the name of the Eternal for nothing.
--Observe the Sabbath and keep it holy
--Honor your father and mother
--You shall not murder
--You shall not commit adultery
--You shall not steal
--You shall not bear false witness
--You shall not covet
I would have to conclude that the entity speaking to you was a false god and could (in fact, should) be ignored. Of course, Jewish law teaches that, following the flood, we received the seven basic pillars of human civilization. Those Noahchite Laws are:
--Don't murder
--Don't steal
--Don't worship false gods
--Don't be sexually immoral
--Don't eat the limb of an animal before it is killed
--Don't curse God
--Set up a system of justice and bring offenders to justice.
The fourth one could cover homosexuality, but it's so vague...
~Adam
QUOTE
Erik G:
God means different things in different cultures. Again the discussion is racist and euro-centric as mostly gay white men discuss the monotheistic idea of a white jesus who is the son of a ____ that smiles upon white folk.
What? Seriously, man, what? Based on the discussion and responses I've read under this topic, I don't know how you arrived at either label. Sounds like you're trying to intimidate people away from the discussion by labeling it racist and euro-centric. God means different things in different cultures. Again the discussion is racist and euro-centric as mostly gay white men discuss the monotheistic idea of a white jesus who is the son of a ____ that smiles upon white folk.
Jesus was a Jew...who said he was white? There were/are black Jews. And in Africa Jesus is often portayed with dark skin...to reflect the people who are made in God's image, just as he has been portrayed in Europe to reflect the local population. And Christianity came from Asia, not Europe, and was established by Jews, not Europeans, but Semitic, Asian-rooted with a long sojourn in Africa Jews.
Just to stay with Christianity, there are many more millions of Christians in this world who are "of color" than there are Christians who are white. For decades now the greatest growth in the Christian church has been in Africa and Asia, while many people of European descent, both in Europe and in North America, reject even the concept of God.
You might not believe as they do, but is it not ironically patronizing to label their beliefs as you do, essentially telling them that what they believe is dross or stupid or superstition? Isn't that, after all, the very type of thing the white, European conquerors and colonizers did to the native peoples in Africa, Asia, N. and S. America, and Australia? In such a way that euro-centric is now often used as a pejorative? Yet your telling them and those who participated in this discussion that we're racist and euro-centric...(left to the reader for lack of support, one might infer that you mean...because we're not as enlightened as you, which is a quintessentially euro-centric attitude).
You've made your point clearly that you believe in other things/forces, not in God. But the labeling is inappropriate and unnecessary.
[ June 09, 2005, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Good Hands ]
For those who have a difficulty in understanding Faith, this was the reading in Church this past Sunday.
From Hebrews 11:1 (New International Version) "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
As I read on, I found that all of Chapter 11 and the first three verses of Chapter 12 are a tutorial in what Faith is and how Faith is an endurance.
From Hebrews 11:1 (New International Version) "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."
As I read on, I found that all of Chapter 11 and the first three verses of Chapter 12 are a tutorial in what Faith is and how Faith is an endurance.
QUOTE
Hebrews 11
By Faith
(1)Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (2)This is what the ancients were commended for.
(3)By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (4)By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
(5)By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. (6)And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
(7)By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
(8)By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. (9)By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. (10)For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
(11)By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. (12)And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
(13)All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. (14)People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. (15)If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. (16)Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
(17)By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, (18)even though God had said to him, \"It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.\" (19)Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
(20)By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
(21)By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
(22)By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
(23)By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
(24)By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. (25)He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. (26)He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. (27)By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. (28)By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
(29)By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
(30)By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
(31)By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
(32)And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, (33)who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, (34)quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. (35)Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. (36)Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. (37)They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— (38)the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
(39)These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. (40)God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Hebrews 12
God Disciplines His Sons
(1)Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. (2)Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (3)Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
By Faith
(1)Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (2)This is what the ancients were commended for.
(3)By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (4)By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
(5)By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. (6)And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
(7)By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
(8)By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. (9)By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. (10)For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
(11)By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise. (12)And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
(13)All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. (14)People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. (15)If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. (16)Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
(17)By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, (18)even though God had said to him, \"It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.\" (19)Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
(20)By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
(21)By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
(22)By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
(23)By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
(24)By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. (25)He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. (26)He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. (27)By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. (28)By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
(29)By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
(30)By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
(31)By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
(32)And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, (33)who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, (34)quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. (35)Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. (36)Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. (37)They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— (38)the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
(39)These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. (40)God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Hebrews 12
God Disciplines His Sons
(1)Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. (2)Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (3)Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Jesus had to be white to show up on black velvet 
One has only to get up in the morning and open your eyes to know that god exists.
I like Spinoza "God is the efficient cause not only of the existence of things, but also of their essence. Individual things are nothing but modifications of the attributes of God, or modes by which the attributes of God are expressed in a fixed and definite manner."
All you have to do is listen to the wind blowing through some mountain pines, look into the eyes of a small child, or stand on the shore looking out at the ocean in order to know beyond all doubt that god exists.
Does god interfere in our every day lives? I will leave that argument to anyone who has a lifetime to discuss how many angels can sit upon the head of a pin.
Rob
I like Spinoza "God is the efficient cause not only of the existence of things, but also of their essence. Individual things are nothing but modifications of the attributes of God, or modes by which the attributes of God are expressed in a fixed and definite manner."
All you have to do is listen to the wind blowing through some mountain pines, look into the eyes of a small child, or stand on the shore looking out at the ocean in order to know beyond all doubt that god exists.
Does god interfere in our every day lives? I will leave that argument to anyone who has a lifetime to discuss how many angels can sit upon the head of a pin.
Rob
QUOTE
Good Hands:
You've made your point clearly that you believe in other things/forces, not in God. But the labeling is inappropriate and unnecessary.
Apparently I have not made much of a point.You've made your point clearly that you believe in other things/forces, not in God. But the labeling is inappropriate and unnecessary.
You say "God". I say "god". Enlightenment? Is that when I see the Virgin Mary in the pubic hairs on the urinal deodorizer? eek!
IT Jock/Rob, that was beautiful. That is exactly what God is all about. You hit the nail on the head.
QUOTE
Erik G:
Apparently I have not made much of a point.
You say \"God\". I say \"god\". Enlightenment? Is that when I see the Virgin Mary in the pubic hairs on the urinal deodorizer? eek!
I have no idea. I was responding to your characterization that the discussion as being racist and eurocentric, which I didn't see or read into the comments that had been posted.
Apparently I have not made much of a point.
You say \"God\". I say \"god\". Enlightenment? Is that when I see the Virgin Mary in the pubic hairs on the urinal deodorizer? eek!
QUOTE
Erik G:
Jesus had to be white to show up on black velvet
I LOVE this! Gotta remember it to tell at church.
Jesus had to be white to show up on black velvet
I am a church goer, but if someone were to ask me if I beleived 100% that god existed, I would have to question it.
Why would God allow my first lover to have been beaten to death. What purpose did it solve. Who is the "better for it". What "divine plan" does this support, and if there is one, I don't want a part of it.
What God would have allowed the abuse that I suffered, reaching the point that one day in high school, I had a double barrelled shotgun in my mouth and was prepared to pull the trigger. What god allows that level of pain and self loathing.
What God allows Aids. I have buried over 35 friends, and have had 2 of them die in my arms, in incredible pain. What "plan" does that kind of death support? Does it make the spirit better one they have crossed over? I'd think that if he was the god of love, then allowing someone to cross peacefully would be better.
I have just got the result of my latest cancer check up, and all I've been told is they need to do more tests.
What kind of god allows it to happen over and over again.
Hey God: I'm tired of fighting it. Make up your Freakin mind once and for all. Either I'm gonna live, or the cancer will get me this time, but I'm tired of sitting on the razor blade every time a test has to be re-done. Are you getting a charge out of this? If so, God must be Howard Stern.
Rant over
Why would God allow my first lover to have been beaten to death. What purpose did it solve. Who is the "better for it". What "divine plan" does this support, and if there is one, I don't want a part of it.
What God would have allowed the abuse that I suffered, reaching the point that one day in high school, I had a double barrelled shotgun in my mouth and was prepared to pull the trigger. What god allows that level of pain and self loathing.
What God allows Aids. I have buried over 35 friends, and have had 2 of them die in my arms, in incredible pain. What "plan" does that kind of death support? Does it make the spirit better one they have crossed over? I'd think that if he was the god of love, then allowing someone to cross peacefully would be better.
I have just got the result of my latest cancer check up, and all I've been told is they need to do more tests.
What kind of god allows it to happen over and over again.
Hey God: I'm tired of fighting it. Make up your Freakin mind once and for all. Either I'm gonna live, or the cancer will get me this time, but I'm tired of sitting on the razor blade every time a test has to be re-done. Are you getting a charge out of this? If so, God must be Howard Stern.
Rant over
QUOTE
ITJock:
One has only to get up in the morning and open your eyes to know that god exists.
I like Spinoza \"God is the efficient cause not only of the existence of things, but also of their essence. Individual things are nothing but modifications of the attributes of God, or modes by which the attributes of God are expressed in a fixed and definite manner.\"
All you have to do is listen to the wind blowing through some mountain pines, look into the eyes of a small child, or stand on the shore looking out at the ocean in order to know beyond all doubt that god exists.
Does god interfere in our every day lives? I will leave that argument to anyone who has a lifetime to discuss how many angels can sit upon the head of a pin.
Rob
RobOne has only to get up in the morning and open your eyes to know that god exists.
I like Spinoza \"God is the efficient cause not only of the existence of things, but also of their essence. Individual things are nothing but modifications of the attributes of God, or modes by which the attributes of God are expressed in a fixed and definite manner.\"
All you have to do is listen to the wind blowing through some mountain pines, look into the eyes of a small child, or stand on the shore looking out at the ocean in order to know beyond all doubt that god exists.
Does god interfere in our every day lives? I will leave that argument to anyone who has a lifetime to discuss how many angels can sit upon the head of a pin.
Rob
That was beautifully written. I wish I had your faith
Lksimcoe, I am sorry to hear about the ways your Faith has been and continues to be tested. It's very interesting you bring this up because on "House, M.D." last night, a nun was in the hospital and she asked the hottie doctor (who was once a Seminary student) what his favorite Bible verse was and he said it was 1 Peter 1:7...
QUOTE
\"These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.\"
...And when I read your deserving moment of venting, it brought last night's episode to mind and I thought I'd share the verse with you.
[quote]Lksimcoe:
...Hey God: I'm tired of fighting it...[/quote]That was beautifully written. I wish I had your faith [/quote]
I am sorry for your trouble and I pray that you will be well.
Mine is not a simple path either. No intelligent thinking person can ever be without any shred of doubt or questioning. Man would not be Man without the ability and need to question and reason.
But then, most of the time, I am blessed to find something good or positive even on the darkest days.
I too have had many good friends die of Aids. I have had many relatives including my mother die of Cancer. I have seen almost unimaginable filth, squalor, and degradation of the human spirit. I have have been spit on and had stones thrown at me, simply because I am gay. No one living, not the lowest peasant or the mightiest king, goes through life unpunished.
Maybe what we need to do is surrender that we can control or even comprehend... That is why my favorite book in the Bible is Ecclesiastes; for the questor seeks and questions ... and finally rejoices in life.
Peace
Rob
[ June 22, 2005, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]
...Hey God: I'm tired of fighting it...[/quote]That was beautifully written. I wish I had your faith [/quote]
I am sorry for your trouble and I pray that you will be well.
Mine is not a simple path either. No intelligent thinking person can ever be without any shred of doubt or questioning. Man would not be Man without the ability and need to question and reason.
But then, most of the time, I am blessed to find something good or positive even on the darkest days.
I too have had many good friends die of Aids. I have had many relatives including my mother die of Cancer. I have seen almost unimaginable filth, squalor, and degradation of the human spirit. I have have been spit on and had stones thrown at me, simply because I am gay. No one living, not the lowest peasant or the mightiest king, goes through life unpunished.
Maybe what we need to do is surrender that we can control or even comprehend... That is why my favorite book in the Bible is Ecclesiastes; for the questor seeks and questions ... and finally rejoices in life.
Peace
Rob
[ June 22, 2005, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: ITJock ]
QUOTE
Good Hands
I have no idea. I was responding to your characterization that the discussion as being racist and eurocentric, which I didn't see or read into the comments that had been posted. [/QB]
There in lies the problem. It is not read into the postings. It is what is omitted entirely. "It" being a different perspective all together. The burden of proof is too be carried by the man-made religion, in this case Christian Capitalism.I have no idea. I was responding to your characterization that the discussion as being racist and eurocentric, which I didn't see or read into the comments that had been posted. [/QB]
Sorry Willyboy, nothing for your church group at the moment. Perhaps if you all buy matching tennis shoes and click your heels together three times. "There's no place like heaven! There's no place like heaven! "
It aint a bible meeting unless you spill some purple Kool-Aid.Rob, why would angels sit on the head of a pin when they could sit on your head?
It reminds me of the Kogee perspective. Well except that the Kogee are a Goddess culture. When I do all the things in your cliched prose, I am reminded that LIFE exists. :cool: Do not ask me, "Why?". I might get spiritual or religious. eek!
QUOTE
Erik G:
When I do all the things in your cliched prose, I am reminded that LIFE exists. :cool: Do not ask me, \"Why?\". I might get spiritual or religious. eek!
Cliched prose??? You wound me;->When I do all the things in your cliched prose, I am reminded that LIFE exists. :cool: Do not ask me, \"Why?\". I might get spiritual or religious. eek!
Don't you think Life itself is the single greatest manifestation of God? I will stick with Spinoza. He was a pretty smart guy.
Rob
QUOTE
Erik G:
[/QB]
Sorry, man, but it feels like you're talking over my head. And also past me in a way. The topic header is "Does God Exist?" Seemed to me people were sharing their beliefs, not trying to "prove" anything. And when you contributed you offered a different perspective, because you don't believe God or god exists. Still don't get how you charged racism.QUOTE
Good Hands
I have no idea. I was responding to your characterization that the discussion as being racist and eurocentric, which I didn't see or read into the comments that had been posted.
There in lies the problem. It is not read into the postings. It is what is omitted entirely. \"It\" being a different perspective all together. The burden of proof is too be carried by the man-made religion, in this case Christian Capitalism.I have no idea. I was responding to your characterization that the discussion as being racist and eurocentric, which I didn't see or read into the comments that had been posted.
[/QB]
There are many religions. Even within Christianity there are many denominations. But if God exists, his existence is not dependent on man-made religions, nor on their ability to prove it. If he doesn't, man-made religions wouldn't prove that he did exist.
Being Christian reflects someone who believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who died in place of each and every sinner, to pay the price for sin, who rose again and ascended to heaven, having redeemed any who accept him. Capitalism is a political and economic system.
I don't believe Christian Capitalism is a valid term. In our Western world there seems to be a cultural blending of the two concepts, as if they were mutually dependent or even one in the same, to a great extent, I believe, because Capitalism, generally speaking, has been the dominant political/economic system and Christianity has conformed to the culture.
Yet, even if it were, Christian Capitalism is also incapable of proving that God exists, any more than man-made religions can.
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