Finally, we see the common sense wing of the GOP attempting to take back the party from the extreme views of the Bush Regime and its defenders of extreme. This critical issue of adhering to the Geneva Convention and the humane treatment of war prisoners has provided a split that defines clear and common sense from the extremist views of the right-wing wackos like our Imperious President and Condi Buck Tooth. Sens. McCain, Warner, and Graham have all shown the backbone necessary to lead the party away from the dangerous road that we had been going on.
CNN Story on the GOP Split

This has been all over the news today, and was front and center discussed on "Hardball". Going to be watching this one....glad to hear people within his own party maybe, starting to stand up to him. Its about time. Glad to hear Colin Powell making a ruckous too. McCain is making all the moves one would, who is running in '08.

[ September 14, 2006, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: hockeyTom ]

Actually, guys, this stuff has been going on for years, but only now have the media - and you - acknowledged it. Why the delay? Odium for the President had to reach a certain critical mass in the press, I guess, if not elsewhere.

Has this tug of war been going on in the thinktanks and salons of the GOP, because it certainly has not been going on on the floor of the Capitol. I can't think of a single thing that this administration has wanted that the various GOP-controlled Congresses since 2001 have given up without so much as a debate or discussion.

It's pretty sad that the fear of losing house and senate seats is finally causing the one or two last rational elements of the GOP to begin resisting Bush and actually stand up for *real* values (i.e., that torture and secret prisons and lack of due process are beneath us). It is refreshing to see that there is a tiny faction within the GOP that believes it's less important to give the White House a hammer to bludgeon Democrats in the next election cycle than it is to live up to American ideals, to retain the freedoms and rules of law and the standards of a just society.

I always wondered what it was like in the final days of the Roman Republic before Octavian was made emperor, but I think many of us have been living it over the past five years. I think a big question for the current Congress, much like it was for the Roman Senate, is whether they want to be the governmental body that makes itself nothing more than a fig-leaf for the ruler, the thing that makes the public believe there actually is a Republic still in place, or whether they want to honor the Constitution by exercising its power and acting as a check and counterweight to an ever-increasingly imperial executive branch.

[ September 15, 2006, 06:03 AM: Message edited by: aquaman ]

Yes, yes, of course dear. Now finish up your meds and go back to la-la land.

Actually, for the past five years of this regime, this hasn't been going on. That is the reason why the dissent is making headlines across America. For the past five years, this has essentially been a rubber-stamp Congress. The one time that this madness stops, you better bet your bottom dollar that the press and American will take notice.

Bush wants 'Clarity' on Interrogations

"It's unacceptable to think there's any kind of comparison between the behavior of the United States of America and the action of Islamic extremists who kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective," said Bush, growing animated as he spoke. eek!

Does he really think our bombs and bullets only hit the bad guys in Afganistan and Iraq?

This whole issue and Bush's pursuit of it -- and you *know* Congress will cave and give him even more power with which he'll further sully the reputation of our country -- simply drives me up the wall.

Bush wants Comgress to redefine torurous activities as "non-torture." Civilized nations don't torture, you understand, so if US law says waterboarding isn't torture, the US can waterboard without violating the Geneva Convention.

Essentially, he wants an "out" with regard to the Geneva Convention's prohibition on torture. If the Congress approves the Bush plan, if the sole superpower decides that the the anti-torture aspect of the Geneva Convention does not apply to it, that provision is, for all practical purposes, dead. Globally. Heaven help any US serviceman who is captured if Bush gets his way.

I have yet to be ashamed that I am an American, but if our nation decides that it wants to codify barbarity, codify actions we would rail against if another nation did them to one of our own, I would be ashamed. Can the end of our nation's nightmare come soon enough?

"Actually," UCLA, I never said "five years;" I said "for years," as the above confirms. Why must some of you consistently misstate others posts? Or ignore the news of those foregone years as well? Recall Specter's stubborness on judiciary, as well as the thorn McCain's been in the President's side - and for almost the five years you've tried to change this discussion to include - and you'll see that this stuff has been going on but has been significantly underreported by the press as much as it has been ignored by the left, until it suited their purposes. But what a poor strategy to wait until the waning years - just over two, so there's no "confusion" - of an administration that's coming to an end anyway to crow over this! Wait a minute, there is no strategy on the left except divide and conquer, or more recently cut and run. Let's see how Demos' decrying GOPers' disunity plays at the polls on Election Day.

Actually, gmg, you are correct. I would hope that you as a lawyer would pay attention to the details. I'm saying that while your assertion that dissent has occurred for years may well be true, that same dissent has been missing the past five years, where Congress has been the rubber stamp to everything the Bush Regime has requested. Only now, that rubber stamp has just become a little more difficult to come by. Hopefully this clarifies things and that I'm not denying what you have said is true, gmg, to a degree. wink

OK, Mr. Hezbollah, allow me to explain something a 12-year-old should be able to understand:

Terrorists intentionally murder civilians--women, children, even gay people--and they do it gleefully, with no remorse, singling them out for elimination. The United States is not intentionally trying to murder civilians. Civilian deaths are, like in any war, an unintended and tragic consequence, one that we, unlike the terrorists, try to avoid.

Got it? I doubt it.

And yet the outcome is the same.

I honestly don't believe our president wants to kill innocent women and children. I really don't. But he has. By the hand he forced HIS Congress to give him. The U.N. said wait and he said NO.

And his reasoning for saying no? Iraq would not agree to the terms the U.N. had asked for.

Our President invaded Iraq against the United Nations wishes because Iraq would not abide by the United Nations wishes. That's truly f**ked. And I'm sorry, but only a f**ked up mind would think that was okay.

GEORGE WALKER BUSH and his administration HAVE KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Maybe the worst terrorsts of all are the ones you might not label as terrorists. Maybe the worst terrorists of all are your heroes.

[ September 15, 2006, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Maddog ]

"It's unacceptable to think there's any kind of comparison between the behavior of the United States of America and the action of Islamic extremists who kill innocent women and children to achieve an objective," said Bush, growing animated as he spoke. eek!

See, this is why this whole debate is exasperating -- all you guys are falling over one another to argue this diversionary point.

The point is NOT whether or not the US's actions are the same, morally or militarily, as the terrorists'. We do NOT target innocent civilians. That is NOT the issue.

The issue IS whether or not we redefine ourselves as a nation not of laws, but of thumbscrews and electric shocks. A nation that can no longer claim the moral high ground. A nation whose own soldiers should be "statue of liberty-ed" or waterboarded if captured by another state. This is the America Bush wants to project around the world. This is his legacy. And it will be our national shame if he gets his way.

Agreed Aqua that this Article 3 thing is important.

But I do not think Bush will get his way. With powerful figures standing up to him, including past prisoners of war, this will be the first time he doesn't get his way.

He was frothing at the mouth at the press conference with his "I'll take my ball and go home if I can't make the rules" attitude. That's the sign of a desperate man.

But on the other point, I don't get how "targetting" women and children makes their deaths any worse or makes us any better.

If I get into my truck and start driving on the lawn through Golden Gate Park, I'm not targetting anyone but I'm somewhere I shouldn't be and people will die. How is that better than a terrorist sniper in the bushes taking out people one by one?

[ September 16, 2006, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Maddog ]

The President actually like a spolied brat and a bully yesterday at that press conference. His true colors are starting to shine through and the American people are taking notice.

I meant to type the President ACTED like a spoiled brat and a bully.

Of course many Republicans are embarassed by this Admnistration. You can't go down to 30-40% approval ratings and not think you haven't lost some of your own. On a personal level, many of the conservative friends I have are completely disenchanted. You surely never hear fiscal conservatives talk about "tax and spend" liberals any more, not with this President and Congress. The church folks continue to be thrown a bone for their votes to the dismay of socially moderate Republicans. Some of them are now standing up to the President? No shit, their asses must have gone numb for sitting so long.

Hey Dinger, glad to see you're back...I thought you got blown away after Katrina/Rita/Wilma. No joke about their asses going numb...I guess that's what happened to their brains, too! It no longer is the Grand Old Party. There is simply nothing grand about it. I guess that is bound to happen when you base your entire platform on three things...fear, fear, and fear. That record starts to wear thin into the fifth year.