[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

Who wrote this?

[quote] never forget that we are the greatest nation on Earth.

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Questionable, at best.

I mean if you(ump), wrote it, fine. I don't want to rip away your shroud of secrecy. I was just curious. I think I've read it somewhere else. Just can't put my finger on it. Hopefully, I haven't commited herecy with my "shroud" remark.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

Ump, I don't think we are THE greatest nation on earth. I think we are ONE of the greatest nations. Other countries fought in WWI and WWII as well as Korea and Viet Nam. We wouldn't be able to handle the war on terrorism without the help of other countries. Not to mention, Desert Storm. Growing up, I lived in a few different countries like Gremany and England. They're not so bad. I have also lived in Iran and that wasn't so good. Now, if you're talking low tax rate, yeah, we are the greatest nation on earth. But, that's not the best indication of a great country. All that means is we treat our wealthy better than we treat everyone else.

Seph and Budge:

I think the point of Ump's posting was to demonstrate the sacrifices made by the original signers so that we may have the opportunity to present a dissenting opinion such as you have. Would we be as willing to sacrifice as much as they did for a common cause?

Ump, I agree, I thank God every day that I awaken to a country, even with its faults, that is as great as ours.

Aubie, because I have a dissenting opinion, you seem to think I wouldn't sacrifice for this country. While I don't believe in god, I do believe in the constitution and it is something worth fighting for. Don't assume that my disbelief in a higher power makes me amoral. I don't need god to know the difference between right and wrong. If others need that, more power to them. Can you still by beer on Sundays in B'ham?

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

[quote]Seph, with all due respect, I challenge you to name a single country on this planet better than ours

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By most measurable statistics on quality of life issues, the Scandanavian countries have it all over the US. Whether they are places one would actually want to live in is a personal choice.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

Ump, the Roman Empire had guys always talking about the greatness of Rome and death to anyone who says otherwise. Rome fell. If we get too caught up in our own greatness, we may not be around either........ Maybe not. I'm not lessening our founding fathers nor this country. I'm just looking at it from a global view point. In the present, the future, the here and now etc... The world has become intergrated and will be even more so as the world economy grows. This country will change a lot in the next 25 years. The Declaration of Independance is a good way to remeber how this country started. As for where we are going The Declaration will become a blip in world history. Arrogance isn't something we should practice. Who knows one of these days our closest allies could turn thier backs on us?

Kind of hard to meet Ump's challenge without deciding on a definition of what makes a country "great". While I do think it is important not to take for granted all the freedoms that most of us enjoy in the US, we need to remember that many citizens of other countries would say that their country is at least as "great" as the US and that they would rightly take offense with the common "We're Number One! USA! USA!" attitude.

This exchange makes me think of the hymn/anthem/song by Lloyd Stone titled "This is my song."

This is my song, O God of all the nations,
a song of peace for lands afar and mine.
This is my home, the country where my heart is;
here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine;
But other hearts in other lands are beating
with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.

My country's skies are bluer than the ocean,
and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
But other lands have sunlight, too, and clover,
and skies are everywhere as blue as mine.
O hear my song, O God of all the nations,
A song of peace for their land and for mine.

So let me get this straight (or gayly uncrooked) . Now, it's not politically correct to think that we live in the greatest Nation in the world, bar-none. Give me a break. There are a lot of places in this big world, but I can't say that I would choose to LIVE anywhere else. Ok, except if I was offered a Caribbean Island of my own forever named Bobcat's Fantasy Island, chock full of gorgeous men, but the chance of that happening is ziltch.

I think that an American that discounts the greatness of the US in this world of today based on the Economic functioning of the global economy needs to take a step back and realize what National pride is. That's like playing on a team, and right before going out on the field having a huddle and telling everyone, ya, we're pretty good, but those guys kick some serious arse, they're way better than we are. How in the heck are you supposed to play your best if you think you're already doomed to lose?

Look back in history and you'll see that we have indeed toned down our attitude. Back in the day of Manifest Destiny people weren't just proud of their country, they believed that it was God's will for us to move across and take all the land from coast to coast. I think that goes a little further than saying that we're number 1. I personally think that we are the greatest country to live in. You know why? Because I said so, and I'm pretty much the authority in this case because I've lived here.

didn't even bother to read ump's pleonastic post.

too verbose!

does this qualify as 'jingoistic nonsense'?

[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
You still haven't met my challenge: Name any other country greater than ours. There is none. Others may be great, but we are, indeed, the greatest country in the world. Period.

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Well, I guess that settles it, then.

[quote]
[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

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Though not for logic.

[quote]Originally posted by MSUBobcat:
There are a lot of places in this big world, but I can't say that I would choose to LIVE anywhere else.

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Than Helena? Bwahahahahaha.

Just kidding.

bobcat, I know we live in a great nation. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. I'm just looking at it from a different angle. Personally, it makes good sense to me. I don't know anything about political correctness. Jeez, I thought John Rocker should have never apologized for his remarks.

Ump, Regardless of whether or how your challenge question is answered, I appreciate your sharing this very readable post in time for the Fourth, which is, if nothing else, a time to consider and reflect upon sentiments such as these that led to our country's greatness, whatever its degree.

Let the critics kvetch as they will. You stepped up with something positive and inspiring to say and I thank you for it.

Happy Fourth to all!

America is the most powerful nation on earth, that I will not deny. It's how this power is used, though, which determines whether or not we are the greatest.

That label "greatest" is arbitrary anyway. If your opinion is the only one that matters, and you are judging yourself, you can call yourself the greatest, and as far as you know, that's the truth. Or, you can look at it from the point of everyone around you, with their experiences in dealing with you, and decide, putting those views into perspective, that you aren't the greatest.

Thank you, Ump25, for the original post. It shows a moment in history that I believe Americans should be proud of. Now, if we could only use this pride to work for the best interests of all, not just Americans, then yes, we would be the greatest country on earth.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

[quote]There are a lot of places in this big world, but I can't say that I would choose to LIVE anywhere else

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I've taken jobs solely because the company had European branches. I hoped to be able to transfer to one of those branches. For some bizarre reason, company's aren't willing to relocate secretaries! IT geniuses or CFO's, yes; but people who make coffee and type documents, nope! I'd move to London, Edinburgh, Copenhagen, Paris, Berlin or Florence in a heartbeat and never look back. The only thing I'd miss about America is my family/friends and baseball. They have democracy in Europe as well, you know.

Twin 58:

[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
Seph, with all due respect, I challenge you to name a single country on this planet better than ours. Despite our imperfections, no other country offers its citizens so much hope, so much promise, and so much freedom.

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My guess is Seph might think Canada is better than the USA. After all, he lives there. Thanks to a mailing list I'm on, I read a lot about Canada, and there are things about it which might give Canada the advantage. And they don't seem to be without hope, promise or freedom. I'll leave it to Seph if he wishes to elaborate further.

Thought for today
Book: Bibble, The
Author: James King (Editor)

Chapter 23 of Matty's section

"Then Jesus spoke, saying... 'Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted'".

Hmmm .... maybe ol' Jess had a point .........

Apparently the essay was written by Lard Ass Limbaugh's father ........

figures .....

The original author does botch a few things, such as names like LEWIS Morris, not Louis (though there was a painter Morris Louis, but he came along two centuries later); Philip Livingston, not Philips; etc.

It's interesting, but also schmaltzy--yes, they and many others sacrificed their lives for America's freedom. Thousands of poor working *men* and *women* of all colors battled against the British, Crispus Attucks' blood was the first spilled, Haitian soldiers fought in Savannah, etc. Some of the Declaration signers were extraordinary men, but the nation's freedom could not have been secured without the blood shed by many more. Half of these folks were slaveowners, and Jefferson is one of the most notorious of all of them. Dismissing this as mere "faults" really doesn't cut it. Neither John nor Samuel Adams, for example, felt the need to profit off the free labor of other human beings, and no one *ever* should.

The United States is the most powerful nation on earth, for all its faults, and when our democratic system and Republican structure are working properly, it's a pretty amazing place--when they're working properly.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

Hey, I'm an equal-opportunity condemmer - demagogues on the right, hypocrites on the left, spineless jellyfish in the middle, they ALL have been blasted by me, on this board and elsewhere.

It's just that the lefties usually limit themselves to (or are not sophisticated enough to move beyond) greed and avarice, while those on the Evil side hide their fascistic tendencies behind the (ever more tainted) cloth of "righteousness".....

To paraphrase Chevy Chase, "Wonderful, now I can hate myself" .....


Edited for duplicated words (proving I'm no writer).....

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Wurm ]

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

[quote]But, leave it to a liberal to discredit something by personally attacking someone--a common tactic of those on the Left

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Oh puh-leeezzzeee. How is that any different than the Radical Right's psychotic hatred of Hillary Rodham Clinton? They couldn't do anything to Teflon Bill, no matter how hard they tried, so they concocted the documented Vast Right Wing Conspiracy against her. Gosh, wonder where those totally unsubstantiated rumors of her lesbianism came from? Hint: Not from the Left. I'm no fan of either Clinton by a long shot, but to pretend that the Right doesn't engage in the same tactics you decry is absurd.

[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
... Rush's father apparently wrote this before he died, ...

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I hope so.

I appreciate the inspiring story in your original post, Ump, and your patriotism is commendable, but to make a blanket statement like "Regardless of how we Americans may disagree on one thing or another, regardless of how we may realize we are not a perfect nation, we never forget that we are the greatest nation on Earth" is rather presumptuous. Aside from your belief that you speak on behalf of all Americans (you don't), you state "...we are the greatest nation on Earth" as though it were written in stone somewhere (it ain't). If instead you had stated "I BELIEVE that we are the greatest nation on earth," you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me.

I am American-born and have lived on both sides of the 49th parallel for extended periods of time. Know what? I keep coming back to Canada, because I think Canada is a better place to live FOR ME. But I wouldn’t presume to say to anyone "Canada is the greatest nation on earth," without preparing for a little "bwa-ha-ha-ha" response in return. I remain proud and patriotic about America, even though I don't love ALL-things American, and choose to live in Canada, and think that Canada, imho, is the greatest nation on earth. "Period."

Semantics aside, as for your "challenge" to "name a single country on the planet better than ours," I'll let better minds speak on my behalf:

UN Ranking of Countries (Story & Clickable List)

"...this is the only place where anyone began criticizing America in the same thread the commentary appeared..."

I'm at a loss to find any prior "criticism" of America in this thread. Rather, if you refer to dissention of your opinion as criticism here, then an abundance of patriotism may be promoting skin-thinning. Frankly, the fact that Outsports is the only site where your posting of "Our Lives..." (and your personal "greatest nation" intro, I gather) has led to anything other than gushing red, white and blue is, imo, high praise for the Outsports boards and every opinion contained therein. Tell me, why else would you post this on a "discussion board," other than to elicit discussion?

Lots-of-us: Thanks for the thoughtful poetry.

Happy Fourth of July to all Americans, at home and abroad.

Isn't Monday Dominion Day? So, will we see something from Gordon Sinclair?

Sure is, twin58, only it's now called "Canada Day," so as not to offend non-monarchists.

And yes, Gordon Sinclair still resonates to this day, good neighbor. Here's the text and RealAudio of his famous \"The Americans\" speech from 1973.

Well, then, we're just going to have to get some Canadian hottie to be the "Picture This" guy on July 1.

Todd "The God" MacCulloch, from Winnipeg, would work for me. Jim? Cyd?

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

hey, ump, you're blaming the messenger, and discrediting the message. whatever your differences with the u.n., their ranking of liveable countries uses as metrics -- life expectancy, poverty level, food supply, and technology. this seems pretty reasonable to me. and a quick look at the top ten liveable countries doesn't exactly read like a who's who list of anti-american countries (norway, australia, canada, sweden, belgium, united states, netherlands, japan, finland).

that said, i think we're now mixing apples and oranges. the u.n. list is of the best places to live, and the metrics they used are clearly defined. your assertion is that the u.s. is the greatest country on earth, and as was mentioned earlier, no definition of great has yet been given. even absent a yardstick of greatness, it is very possible that the u.s. is the greatest country on earth, but only the sixth best place to live.

Speaking of Canada coming to our rescue. They did get some of the hostages out of Iran during that crisis. I believe we are still pretty damn greatful.

[quote]Originally posted by Ump25:
Seph, since you're a Canadian or at least a Canadian resident, I would expect you to say nothing but Canada is the greatest, although I'd like to see them try to come to our rescue if we were ever fighting four our lives in some big war.

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You know how they are. Take that, you pansies.

[quote]One reason why I think it's obvious that the U.S. is the world's greatest country is that we are always the primary ones to help the rest of the world when it is threatened.

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You mean, like in Rwanda?

[quote]Who saved Europe from the Nazis?

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Didn't something like 20% of the Russian population die during WWII? I believe quite a few nations lost people in that one.

In addition to Rwanda, add: Bosnia. And..... In other words, we "save" countries if it serves our needs. I strongly doubt that anyone in the US really gave a damn about Kuwait except in some abstract "Well, they're humans too!" kind of way. But to protect our supply of oil and guarantee a continued presence in the Middle East? We are soooo there. Rwanda? Nothing in it for us, so the genocide proceeded there apace.

We use our power selectively and to foster our own ambitions. Nothing unusual about that; I'm just sick of the notion that the US only does things out of the goodness of our hearts, that we are the defenders of human rights the world over. Well, when we stop propping up people like the Shah of Iran, Pinochet, Saddam and on and on and on and sending in that bunch of laughably incompetent nincompoops the CIA to "destabilize governments" (ie overthrow democratically elected governments that have the audacity to think that maybe, just maybe, there's a better way than free-market capitalism), I'll believe that fiction.

And so on. So, is this turning into the "Blame Canada" thread? Weeee!

Naw...lets blame Kuwait instead!!! Speaking of Kuwait it brings to mind a story "60 Minutes" did there recently and about how they used to practically worship the ground any American walked on...no longer. You would think they would be eternally grateful, but apparantly no longer. They interveiwed quite a few Kuwaitis now who said they still are very fond of Americans (what they say), but that they don't like our government any more. Its their view, and one I tend to agree with that we are too pro-Israel.This is what alot of Egyptians are now saying too. In the past 12 years its worth noting that the Muslim religeon there has gained by leaps and bounds.
Anyway Happy Birthday to the United States of America, and to Canada too, ok???

[quote]Originally posted by Seph:
Happy Fourth of July to all Americans, at home and abroad.

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And Happy Canada Day to you, Seph, even if you were born here.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

With the way things are going, the "Loonie" will soon be worth $1.00 US again


Happy Canada Day!! Une très belle Fête du Canada!!

I say we should bomb the bastards while they aren't looking.

- Curtis "twin58" LeMay

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Ump25 ]

Happy Canada Day!

Just in case we decide to invade the USA you should learn the national anthem:
"O Canada! Terre de nos aïeux..."

Happy 4th of July to our southern neigbhors.