Whatever legs this story had, they ain't walkin' no more! I wonder if this was one of Dan Rather's retirement projects. Sloppy research, the initial refusal to acknowledge error, and of course the "blame America first" angle - it had all the hallmarks. Another one bites the dust.

It wasn't even a story, it was a brief note. One of the reporters was the notorious Michael Isikoff, who doggedly pursued the Monica Lewinsky story, helping to blow the former President's consensual sexual affair up into something far greater than it was.

The unnamed "source" for Isikoff and Barry's article was a Pentagon official, and another Pentagon official did not dispute this account when s/he reviewed it. The original source is now backing away from her or his comments, so the blame should be placed as well on her or him, not just on Newsweek.

Muslim internees of Guantánamo Bay, which has been described as a site of torture and prisoner abuse by the Red Cross, a neutral, non-government organization, had reported the desecration of the Quran as far back as two years ago.

I know you enter court with the facts, so before you gloat and claim the article had a "blame America" tone, at least read it first and then comment. The Rather comment is just ridiculous; and don't forget, W has still never accounted for his AWOL period in Texas or his having missed his commitment in Boston. Other veterans go to prison or get dishonorable or "other than honorable" discharges for such things.

The worst thing Newsweek did was not to verify this blind source's allegation by asking to see the report, and by not taking into account how upset some Muslims--especially agents provocateurs, would be upon learning of this in a US publication, which, despite tremendous foreign doubt of the US's aims and intentions, still signifies credibility. I guess Isikoff was so rabid that even in this brief note, he fell back on his worst instincts.

As for people "losing their lives," as Condoleezza Rice et. al. claim, has that dizzy woman forgotten her lies before the 9/11 panel, when she blatantly claimed that the PDB announcing Osama bin Laden's intent to attack IN THE US was "historical"? Or has she forgotten hers and others in the administration's lies, which have led to the deaths of over 1,600 US servicepeople, including 45 just last month and 28 so far in May, as well as more than 70,000 US wounded, and over 100,000 dead Iraqi citizens, based on lies they bandied about WMDs and Saddam-Al Qaeda links? As the recent British memo--which neither Blair nor anyone in his cabinet disputes--clearly shows, these lousy scumbags were plotting to invade Iraq well before they claimed to. Talk about the pot calling the kettle....

[ May 16, 2005, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Another brilliant effort on your part to deflect the issue from Newsweek by bringing up all these other extraneous, irrelevant incidents. Stay on point here, Mr. Digression.

I thought I was reading gmg's post on Newsweek's terrible reporting, and I get this incessant, rambling, oh-so-typical anti-Bush Administration rant. Really, FT, have you run out of ideas?

*Yawn*

MIB, Fantomos did bring up valid points. You simply find them disagreeable. The reason of this post was to call Newsweek to task for sloppy reporting, something, that indirectly, cost human lives. It all goes back to Journalism 101...If your mother says she loves you, CHECK IT OUT! Meaning, assume nothing. This is something Newsweek did not do. Did these actions actually occur? I'll just bet they did. What do you think would happen if Al Quaida started flushing Bibles down the toilet?

Desecration of the Koran during interogation of Muslim terrorists has been reported by at least three other major news sources, including the BBC, without them being singled out as causing the type of response that this errant report caused.

The report was seized on by Islamic protesters in Afghanistan and elsewhere as a convenient reason for escalation. It would have most likely eventually happened regardless of the report, even the highest officials in the US military are saying so.

[ May 18, 2005, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

From Scott McClellan:
"The report has had serious consequences," McClellan said. "People have lost their lives. The image of the United States abroad has been damaged."

Oh, the irony.

We only torture, drag human beings around on leashes, pile naked bodies on top of each other for photo ops but we would never desecrate the Quran.

The only part of the story that Newsweek is retracting is that a government report confirmed that Koran desecration has occurred at Gitmo. As fantomas noted, they may have screwed up, but thought they were on solid ground because the story came from a trusted source, and the Pentagon did not challenge the assertion when it reviewed the report - in fact it took the Pentagon 10 days! to alert them that the source was incorrect.

And for the administration to try and blame anti-Americanism in the Muslim world on this story is ludicrous. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs said on Thursday that the riots in Afghanistan had nothing to do with the article, and reports of Koran abuse, both in reputable sources and on the street, are rampant, and at least one such report was confirmed by an American interrogator (in that case the Koran was thrown on the floor, not in a toilet, but that is just as insulting to a Muslim).

Before Scott McCleland, or espectially Condoleeza Rice, point any fingers of blame at Newsweek, let's remember the dubious intelligence that was being cooked by the administration in 2002 to justify the invasion of Iraq - methinks that had a lot more to do with anti-American sentiment in the region than this article.

And I find it very convenient that, just as the media was finally picking up on the British documents confirming that the Bush administration had settled on military action long before going to Congress, and was "fixing" the intelligence to provide a justification for war (something that corroborates the accounts of both Paul O'Neill and Richard Clarke), this story is suddenly attacked.

Not that the White House has ever before attempted to distract the media from an embarassing story by highlighting an entirely different issue. What is that terror threat level at again today anyway?

"Omniscient" apparently is not a synonym for "all-reading."

[ May 17, 2005, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: GatorJamie ]

Wow, the lefties are out in force... digressing, minimizing, redirecting. Gotta hand it to you Fantomas, Razorback, CPT-Doom --you guys have the slide and shuffle thing down pat. Slick.

The lefties rise to defend the MSM like Newsweek and Rather and NYT because the lefties consider the MSM to be one of THEIR institutions in society and that it needs protection, defense, nuturing --just like elistist higher ed institutions and some other societal institutions.

The trouble is guys, the MSM is nearly at its lowest point of credibility and integrity with most Americans --and it's interesting to note that in the latest Gallup poll, Democrats see the MSM as having more integrity, more credibility, more veracity than nearly any other group polled. Talk about a sense of societal ownership personified! Damn, that's rich.

Like the Democrat Party of Kerry, Dean, Boxer, and Kennedy, the MSM continues to degenerate into some hollow shell of its self-aggrandizing former sense. Free press, my ass.

Minimize the story all you want, guys. Like someone else said: Digress. The truth is slowly winning on its march toward enlightenment of Americans near and far. Rathergate, left liberal bias, Newsweek, the NYT, Mike Wallace, WPost, and other bastions of the MSM are losing readers, viewers, and credibility. Along with Hollywood.

But you guys go ahead... ignore realities. Ignore the truth. The lessons you learned from watching the MSM weave their sorry tales is being put to good use. Slide to the left, shuffle up some dust to cover your tracks. Slick.

Like affirmative action, state-paid abortion on demand, protectionist trade policies, and (my favorite) CleanAir ecoterrorist policies which are now costing us $2.49/gal for gas, you guys can continue to defend the MSM even when it's clearly wrong.

Hey, but you're consistant. Gotta give you high marks for that. LOL

I don't ignore realities, I see them quite clearly. The reality is this administration has flat-out LIED to the American people and to our allies for the last 4 years, and the MSM has refused to call attention to it.

Should Newsweek have gotten the standard 3-source support for their article? certainly. But wrongly claiming that a military report said something it didn't, particularly given the known prisoner abuses in both Iraq and Gitmo AND this administration's embrace of torture to achieve its ends, I hardly think the article can be held responsible for wide-spread anti-American protests.

And CPT-Doom.... "Not that the White House has ever before attempted to distract the media from an embarassing story by highlighting an entirely different issue."

OMG. Let's just recall one item in that Hyper-hypocritical comment... how about BubbaBill bombing the crap out of an aspirin factory in the Sudan? Just before his felonious Grand Jury "remarks" (we call it testimony, but Hillary wants to rephrase it as "remarks")...

here http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/khartoumbomb.html

here
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/P...UDAN/sudan.html

and most damning here
http://www.salon.com/news/1998/09/23news.html

The terror threat level for right now is Yellow or elevated.

* Yawn *

Not that I expect an honest answer, but how do YOU feel about being part of the American Taliban?

[ May 17, 2005, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

I find it odd that Fox News has never found themselves in this sort of mess. I mean, I saw them report that chemical weapons were found in Iraq on multiple occassions. And that's just ONE situation.


Yes, Newsweek screwed up. But I find it laughable that Newsweek, NY Times, CBS, etc get pounded for their mistakes, yet the 'right' news sources hardly even get mentioned. I mean, just look at the Fox News guy writing the story on John Kerry with fake quotes! That hardly got any attention.

Right now, the Bush administration is milking this for all they can get....now wanting Newsweek to do more. They love bringing the media down because it not only weakens the media in terms of investigating and question asking, it also limits the credibility to the public. Reporters already are easy on this administration and it just keeps getting easier. Of course, obviously mistakes have been made by journalists as well and they need to stop shooting themselves in the foot too.

Hey Joe, no taliban membership card here. Remember, under our leadership America and the rest of the world we stood tall once again --after 8 years of self-interested narcissism by PrezBubba-- and kicked the taliban out of power.

Yawn all you like, it's your most meaningful effort when it comes to free speech.

Gotta love those old saws: taliban, gay GOPers aligned with Jews in Nazi Germany, and the best: the troll name calling. Tired, wornout; ready to reclaim your spot in the Democrat Party yet?

Oh, and here is a priceless moment from Scott McClellan

The underlying report came from the Washington Post (which requires registration for its on-line content) Experts Say U.S. Never Spoke to Source of Tip On Bioweapons

Again, this does not make Newsweek right, but it does point out that many different organizations too often trust certain sources they should not.

Truth hurts you, doesn't it, American Taliban member?

Joe, get back to work if your are indeed a federal employee --your lunch break, coffee break, political organizing break, and naptime has expired.

Like I said, no taliban membership. Honest. Last time I did the church thing was to attend a commitment ceremony in Massachusetts in 1999.

But are you still carrying your communist card? Because you sure sound more like Jane Fonda than a real American. You need the civics lesson, bucko. And, if you are a federal employee, you need to quit feeding at the taxpayer's trough... this isn't protected speech if it's done on the taxpayer's dime when you should be working.

* YAWN *

Your "American Taliban" membership hits a nerve, eh? You really should reconsider your support of the GodOP if it bothers you that much. But somehow, like the other lapdogs, I'm betting it doesn't.

Yawn away Joe... nope, the taliban thing nor the chickenhawk thing nor the troll thing bother me... what bothers me is inept, inefficient federal employees blogging on the taxpayer dime.

Get back to work, leftie.

Can you ever respond without calling people names? I criticized Newsweek, but I guess you don't read, or don't read carefully. No one on the left considers the mainstream media to be one of the "their" institutions, it's the right, and Talivangelists who are fixated by this obsession. The Right in fact has helped to usher in the complete and total decline of the MSM, including getting it to pimp W's lies to get us into his grudge/oil war against Saddam. But I know, it was to make America "stand tall." Which we've done, which is why Iran continues to develop its nukes and is now pulling strings today in Iraq, and why wacko nation North Korea is on the verge of planning nuclear tests. And hey, W's attack dog, sex freak-psycho John Bolton was supposed to be in charge of addressing nuclear proliferation in both countries. Guess he did his job. Fail upwards!

Also, just repeating Republican talking points doesn't convince anyone on here, not even the other Republicans, or even "judges" of dubious political affiliation. Goebbelsian mind control just don't work, at least with some of us. So try another tactic.

As for aspirin factories, why not focus on the numerous messes Mr. "Standing Tall" has gotten this country into in the last five years? How is a disastrous attack on US soil that killed 3,000 Americans "standing tall"? How is a war that supposedly was over 2 years ago but rages on unabated "standing tall"? How is supporting a coup that has made a country like Haiti WORSE "standing tall"? How is losing the respect of all of our allies, and influence throughout our own hemisphere (maybe you missed it, but Condosleezzy Rice just declared W's "Plan Colombia" a total failure) "standing tall"? Don't believe the hype.

[ May 17, 2005, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Nice way to elevate the conversation.

There ya go again, Fantomas... blame it first on America. I think you just pushed Jane Fonda out of line. When's the patriotic tendency you learned in grammar school civics class finally kick in for you, eh?

Here's the rub: you don't even appreciate that the liberal left consider the MSM "theirs". And that's ok... you probably never will see beyond your rose-colored glasses.

However, Americans by and large consider the MSM to be puppets of the liberal left and that the MSM willingly subvert facts and credibility to advance stories that promote their personal political leanings. (See Gallup, today) I'd expect you not to agree and a few other moonbats here --and Dan Rather and Mike Wallace and Peter Jennings and Katie Couric and the CNN crew.

In the end, the MSM continues it's appointment with destiny: heading toward the trash bin. And when ratings and entertainment muzzle the liberal left news adventurists, the MSM will change.

But for now, their approval ratings on integrity, credibility and veracity are low, low, low and only Democrats seem to think of them a tad bit higher. And that's not saying much, eh?

Talking points? Name calling? Take a gander at your last post... it's a loaded gun ready to go off on both points. The light reflected from the mirror is often harsh, Fantomas.

This is just another example of the corporate media bowing down to The White House.

Considering that you have posted absolutely NOTHING on any part of this board other than right-wing political attacks filled with name-calling -- despite that one post in which you sanctimoniously proclaimed that everyone should ignore "political trolls" and get back to "sports, men, and the love of both" even though, again I must point out, you've never posted on a SINGLE topic in ANY forum other than Politics & Religion, not ONE, not on baseball or football or soccer or Hot Jock Talk or any of the non-sports topics or even "Attractive, sexy men in the news" (I mean, you claim to love men and sports so you'd THINK you might have something to say about them now and then, but NOOOOOO), thus making you nothing BUT one of the political trolls that you so sanctimoniously proclaimed that we should ignore -- this has to be the ultimate in "pot-kettle-black." Or, as your fellow American Taliban-ite MIB might put it: Oh, the hypocrisy!

[ May 17, 2005, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

As some of us will disagree on how the war on terror has been prosecuted, or you utter contempt and hate for the man that is W…. this story is a tad bit different than saying FOX, CNN or the NYT’s are tilted in how they write or show stories.

This story caused rioting, violence, and death. Directly due to the assertion that later had to be retracted. I don’t care how pro or anti war you are, this is nothing more than dangerous, sick and wrong. If your hate of W and it has come to this, might I suggest seeing a shrink rather than printing bogus news articles?

I might pick up this article and say oh that’s bad. The crazy loons over in the middle east will pack their kid for school with a bomb on them, throw some explosives in the trunk of the car, or grab their gun and hit the streets. Much different than the drooling ya’all do when you see O’Reilly on the TV set.

The careless “journalists” over at this rag deserve to be fired. This almost makes Rather look “fair and balanced”.

Anyone who can defend this should be ashamed of themselves. If this is what your hate of a politician have come to, I feel very sorry for you. If you try to defend a bogus story that caused rioting and death because it was in your point of view, I feel sorry for you.

Then again, maybe the leaders of your lost party should speak up and scold this rag for what they did. Some of America might start respecting you. Heck, you might even have a chance of getting a little political power back.

PhillyFan have you met "MIMatt38" yet?

Joe, joe, joe.... where to begin to make some sense of that rant.

Oh, nevermind. The irony is too sublime.

The point is, Phillyfan, the story is not false. The ONLY part of the story that Newsweek got wrong was whether confirmation of the reports of Koran abuse (which first surfaced over 2 years ago) was in a specific Pentagon report.

According to Newsweek itself:

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE KORAN DESECRATION DID NOT HAPPEN! If, in fact, the riots occurred in part because of the continued reports of anti-Muslim actions in American prison camps, those facts have not changed.

I am not attempting to defend Newsweek, but the specifics of what they got wrong are so insignificant that they pale next to the huge negative impact our continuing war in the Middle East is causing.

The abuse scandals, both in Iraq and Gitmo, have never been investigated by a fully indepedent body, and that lack of transparent investigation is undoubtedly part of the reason the Arab world continues to believe we are attacking them.

They may be paranoid, but we do keep giving them the ammunition to maintain their paranoia.

CPT-Doom, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld has it right... this is very serious business and people have died because these false news stories were used as fodder to whip up anti-American sentiment abroad.

To try to minimize it by saying only a small part of the news story was inaccurate or incorrect and needed to be retracted is kind of like what Dan Rather did with his own crafted scandal... do the bare bones minimalist amount necessary to get your critics off your tail for that news cycle... and then go back to work.

I DONT THINK SO.

Newsweek needs to do a whole lot more to correct the ill winds spread by their deceit. Heads should roll on the Editorial staff. Heads should roll on the Desk staff who purported these lies as news.

I kind of like TonyBlair's approach: call these people out into the public square of discourse and disrobe their false garments... Newsweek needs to atone. And repair.

Don't go padding their kneelers for them. It is serious stuff.

100,000+ dead in Iraq, over false stories but "yawn" who cares, let's get Newsweek!!

It's interesting that the GodOP wants to go after Newsweek because people committed murder based on something they published, but the same GodOP won't go after anti-gay bigots because people commit murder based on things THEY say.

Speaking of hypocrisy...

Well, explain yourself, then. You posted a couple of times in March. You posted about 4 times in April. ALL on politics. ALL spewing the usual garbage of the right-wing nuts. Now today you've gone nuts and posted a lot -- ALL on politics (even the innocuous-seeming one about Star Wars fans), ALL spewing the usual garbage of the right-wing nuts. So, considering that you said you don't like "political trolls" and want us to talk about "sports and men," yet you haven't EVER posted about either, why exactly are you here? Try and make us understand, or at least admit you're a hypocrite.

[ May 17, 2005, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Perhaps Mr. Rumsfeld can speak to General Richard Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and they can get their stories straight.

From the New York Times:

That was last Thursday, some 7 days after the initial report in Newsweek.

NYT story on Newsweek Retraction

So it is debatable how many lives, particularly in a largely illiterate country, were lost based on the Newsweek item. Certainly, as many of us have pointed out, this is not the first claim of such abuses - they go back to 2003, and from a variety of sources.

The point is not whether Newsweek was wrong or right, the point is whether this story caused those riots. Given the long history of tales of prisoner abuse by Americans, and given the dissatisfaction of the Afghani people, who must think they have been abandoned by the USA (a letter to the editor in today's Washington Post states that only 6% of Afghanistan's citizens have access to electricity, this is 4 years after we ousted the Taliban - which is growing stronger, BTW), I would have a problem believing a brief piece in one magazine would be enough to set off riots.

CPT-Doom... of course you would have problems believing that point. It doesn't suit your neat little construct of reality.

For you to quote the NYTimes in defense is like quoting Aljazerra... give it a rest.

Here's part of what the reality is from Yahoo's news service:

KABUL, Afghanistan - Shouting “Death to America,” demonstrators angry over the alleged desecration of the Quran at Guantanamo Bay smashed car and shop windows and stoned a passing convoy of U.S. soldiers Wednesday in eastern Afghanistan. Police opened fire on the protesters, killing four and injuring at least 71. ...

Mobs also attacked the Pakistani consulate along with the offices of two U.N. agencies and a Swedish relief organization. No foreigners were reported hurt and witnesses said police and government troops had restored order by early afternoon.

“There is a lot of damage to the city, they have burned a lot of things,” Shah said. “These are the enemies of peace and stability in Afghanistan who don’t want people to be able to get on with their lives in peace.” ...

Demonstrations began Tuesday, when protesters burned an effigy of President Bush over a report in Newsweek magazine that interrogators at the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, placed Qurans on toilets to rattle suspects, and in at least one case “flushed a holy book down the toilet.”

At the Pentagon, spokesman Bryan Whitman said Wednesday that the allegation will be investigated. “This is a serious allegation and it’s gong to be looked into,” Whitman said. “We have a great consideration with respect to the detainees we’re holding and their religious practices.”

U.S. Charge d’Affaires Richard Christenson said the embassy was “deeply concerned” at the violence and said “disrespect toward the holy book of any religion is unacceptable.”

And if that wasn't enough, here's the Guardian's take... not exactly a mouthpiece for the US Govt or Bush Admin

After week of riots, Newsweek admits it got Qur'an story wrong

Dan Glaister in Los Angeles and Declan Walsh in Islamabad
Monday May 16, 2005
The Guardian

Newsweek magazine yesterday admitted it had got its facts wrong on a story alleging that American military interrogators had desecrated copies of the Qur'an, after a week of protests about the article left at least 17 people dead and more than 100 injured.
The report last week, alleging that interrogators at Guantánamo Bay had flushed a copy of the Qur'an down a toilet, sparked protests across the Islamic world.

In Afghanistan at least 17 people died and more than 100 were injured in the worst street violence the country has seen since US troops ousted the Taliban in 2001. Yesterday, a council of more than 300 mullahs in the north-eastern province of Badakhshan threatened to declare holy war on America if it failed to hand the interrogators to be punished.

I’d venture to guess Captain that that 6% figure of who has electricity is about 6% higher than who had electricity a scant few years ago with the Taliban. It is more than well known that country was literally within the stone age. Not just with these treasures but roads, houses, maybe a lil plumbing within the country. I venture to say they don’t even have the structure in the country to bring in the utility company vehicles to put your power lines up. Perhaps it’s time to be a bit realistic in regards to what they have built in that country.

Moreover, a country full of illiterate people are incapable of building their own power grids, so excuse the world while they bring people in to help them with it. There is only one problem with this, while contractors come in to do this, insurgents take pop shots at them. Not so much the locals, but rather some dumb kid from Syria, Saudi or Egypt who have been brainwashed by extremes in their countries.

Hence we have the root of the problem. Dumb, uneducated people who listen to these wing nuts and riot.

Printing a bogus story like this (yes it is bogus because it’s major assertion can not be proved) only tends to inflame these people to get everyone else run up.

Newsweek’s job as “Journalists” is to be fair, objective, and report the news. I don’t care what they personally think about the war, prisoner abuse or what color they think the sky is. It is their JOB to be neutral. It is not their job to push their feelings on the war down your throat.

All of these “Journalists” can feel free to write articles about the people on the right they hate, put up bad pictures and try to hurt their feelings, but when you cross the line and put people in danger… we have a problem.

This story has nothing to do if you agree with this war or not. This story has to do with this rag’s careless reporting of what they “think” is going on. While doing this they help to fan any flames and helped to cause a fire.

I don’t care if you agree with the war or not, but it’s rebuilding time folks. I’d venture to guess most people in both of these nations would like nothing more than to rebuild, live in freedom, and have a chance at democracy. You really think American troops are preventing them from doing this? No, it’s the misguided idiots we had to throw out in the first place. It is the brainwashed kids from the other countries.

Maybe you guys should really call out who the bad guys are, and unlike most of you think… those bad guys are not wearing US Army Uniforms.

Well, then this should help cool things down then. From today's Pentagon briefing: Isn't DiRita doing the same thing he's accused Newsweek of doing?

PhillyFan/Matt,

Are you off work today? Those are some LONG posts, doing double duty.

Dude - you don't know me, and certainly don't know of my "construct of reality."

Let me give you the run-down on it.

When I first heard about the Newsweek story, I thought "sucks for them, should have checked your sources." I also thought the newscasters were referring to the Uzbeck protests - it's hard to remember which flare-ups we are talking about.

Then I actually started to research the information and found that:

1) reports of this type of abuse are relatively common, and have been going on for 2 years (so at worst the Newsweek article added to anger that was already there)

2) the CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF reported his direct report did not think the protests were about the article, or even about prisoner abuse

3) there was a long delay between when the report was published and when the Pentagon backed off of it, during which the riots happened - the timeline simply does not make sense.

Those are the real facts I was working with, and yes some of them actually came from the New York Times, one of the nation's premier papers. You may choose to assume all MSM articles are simply talking points memos from Pravda, but I take a more objective approach.

My mother always taught me "Be carefully who you point your finger at, cause there's three more pointing back at you." If we're going to start assessing culpability for the deaths of American service personnel over a story that was poorly reported, there's going to have to be a whole lot of blood dumped at the doorstep of the Bush administration and our government for the myriad of missteps and public relations nightmares that have goaded and abetted the insurgent populations of both Afganistan and Iraq. It's a bad situation over there. No one can blame Newsweek for creating it, merely exacerbating it. The administration, however, can be reasonably held to account for its creation.

Very well said.

I think if peter pan got up and said that they were pinching the terrorists too hard in cuba… you guys would consider him credible.

Based on rumor.. or what howard dean said, i mean screamed.

I must say it is pretty depressing to hear this debate devolve into another dem vs rep rant. It is clear that Newsweek was irresponsible, but the way the prisoner abuse scandal have largely been brushed under the rug is also appalling. I don't think that only democrats are angered that we have used torture as a means to gain an advantage in this war on terror. You just cannot go on a so called benevolent mission to liberate people and end up torturing and desecrating the values they hold dear. I have largely supported this war, however, there is no excuse for how the administration has handled this abuse issue. To blame Newsweek for imflaming violence, disregards the administration's own systematic approval of abuse.

I love how Republicans always call anyone who doesn't toe the line part of the "blame American first crowd". Nice way to squelch dissent, GOP.

There are so many problems with this issue, both from Newsweek's side to the White House to the DOD to the rioting crowds in the street. At the heart of it, however, is that the administration has conducted itself over the past five years in such a manner as to make desceration fo the Koran entirely believable. Yep, standing tall.

Anyhow, Newsweek should have verified its source, they are certainly not blameless (and I don't think anyone here, including your so-called "lefties" have suggested anything to the contrary). But if the administration wanted to correct the situation, it could find out which two government officials reviewed (and tacitly approved) the Newsweek story and discipline them for allowing such an eggregious misrepresentation of the administration's actions to be published. So it begs the question, was the story false or just not verified correctly?

[ May 18, 2005, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: aquaman ]

CPT-Doom, let's skip the "I don't know you, dude" thing for now... reflect on that for a moment, if you will. You've got nearly 2000 postings on a wide variety of topics here... come on. Get real.

On the Myers-Rumsfeld disconnect... Myers was mouthing what the US military chief in Afghanistan thought in the first few hours of the riots in Kabul and elsewhere in the country... he was only speaking about Afghanistan. Myers comments were gleaned from the initial reports. Not seasoned with infield observations. Not detailed; simply a piece within a broader context of daily reports from the field. And it wasn’t other countries. Myers was reflecting the field commander’s view –detached from the actual venues of rioting. Since then, we’ve learned that while there was clearly pre-planning involved in some venues of the riots, there were signs, banners, and slogans chanted at wide spread riots in Afghanistan at multiple sites and in other Islamic countries which included references to the American conduct falsely reported by Newsweek. Does the linkage have to be any clearer? Of course it does for a NYTimes reader… afterall it is the premier newspaper, right? Reality time: the NYT is NOT the world’s nor America’s sentinel of credible journalism or unbiased coverage. They have a political bias and it’s as pronounced as anything on Fox or PBS or the BBC or coming from Dan Rather’s lips. Have you missed the last 20 years of informed debate on the MSM?

So CPT-Doom, exactly where does the US go to restore its reputation after working diligently to atone and root out improper conduct elsewhere on prisoner handling issues? We’re putting our military personnel on trial and sending them to prison for their unconscionable conduct in other prisoner abuse cases… where do we go when Newsweek’s story is used to undermine our efforts? Where do we go to restore whatever baby-steps have been gained in righting the wrong of the prison scandal?

How about making Newsweek do more than a simple retraction… opps, we’re sorry. How about Newsweek working to correct the incorrect impressions created in Islamic countries that the US wasn’t sincere in the handling of terrorist prisoners?

And one final point, CPT-Doom, reports of these kind of prisoner abuse allegations get made routinely by the lawyers and terrorists. There are training manuals seized from terror camps and out-country cells pointing out what terrorists need to do when captured. It’s why when we have American lawyers pimping for the terrorists and carrying coded messages out of confidential meetings with their “clients”, the DOJ have had to prosecute those attorneys and interpreters. Come on, is it really that difficult for you to accept that if a terrorist is willing to kill innocents on our soil, they’ll lie and use our own system against us? From PR crap to legal maneuvers in the courts, to enlisting groups like Doctors without Borders, Amnesty International and other groups in their effort to gain freedom?

If that’s what constitutes research on your part… well, well, I don’t know. It reminds of the guy in my freshman yr at UofM that quoted the National Enquirer about JFK conspiracy theories having credibility. No, he didn’t last the term.


Puddy, what rock have you been living under? “…the way the prisoner abuse scandal(s) have largely been brushed under the rug is also appalling”? OMG. Our military and even the blowhards in Congress have been hand wringing, agonizing, investigating and indicting left and right. As they should.

Some folks may not like “all things military”, but you have to give the military credit for ferreting out the abuse, holding those personnel responsible to account, and doing it in a very public, demonstrable way. Is that swept under the rug? Damn, it’s been brutally public and graphic and retching. Do you think that ever could have happened under the Taliban? Or in Saddam-land? Just look at the nonsense the US Asst Atty Gen had to go through to bring the last 9/11 terrorist to justice. Recall what we had to do under 4 Administrations to bring the Lockerbie terrorists to justice. Do Spanish guards wear gloves when handling the prisoners’ Koran after the Madrid train bombings?

Come on, to dismiss all the effort since the prisoner abuse scandal broke as “swept under the rug” and appalling is plain wrong and unfair.

Sorry, the abuse issue has not been resolved. Especially not when prisoners are still be sent to other countries to be abused. If you truly think that the abuse was masterminded by a couple of low level officers you truly are mistaken. There has been quite a lot of effort to try to justify the abuse. They have spent a lot of time finding loopholes in Geneva Convention standards to justify this abuse. I know you feel that this administration can do no wrong, but in this instance they are dead wrong. This is not the image America should portray. It ultimately hurts our cause and endangers us all, and this is not the fault of some article or some biased media coverage. The fault rest squarely with an adminstration that allows such heinous abuse and turns a blind eye.

Aquaman, the "blame America 1st" handle is a fair application. It's an attitude that sneers at the patriotic symbolism of those legion of yellow ribbons on car bumbers, or proposes that the UN isn't corrupted, arrogant, and in need of strong, vocal opposition and reform, or demeans American voters while substituting the interests of France or Germany in prosecuting the war on terror.

Is it intended to quash dissent? It was in response to the false litany of "standing tall" comments which screams "America is wrong, America is wrong, I said so". The same impulse that is a common thread in MSM.

I frankly don't know if every allegation made by a variety of parties will prove to have no basis in fact or be credible. I'm incline to think that our military police, when doing what they're supposed to do, serve well. And that's the point of it, isn't it? You look to blame the military, the Adminstration, and anyone else before pausing to think that maybe not all allegations of abuse have merit. Gheez, seems like a Blame America 1st moment to me... at the heart of it isn't what the Administration did or didn't do in the last 5 yrs... the heart of it is what Newsweek did, what happened as a consquence of that false and inflamatory article, and what Newsweek should do in the upcoming months to correct it's error and the consquent events. That's the heart of it, guy.

Blame America 1st... yeah, seems to be a pattern here. A spade is a spade.

You've got to be kidding. It almost always starts out as deny, deny, deny and ends with going after the lower-ranked soldiers.

Puddy, the real truth is that a group of military employees --poorly trained and poorly lead-- did a series of improper, distasteful, unhumane things to prisoners under their control.

It was wrong. They are being held to account for their supra-actions. The Geneva Convention does not apply to noncombatants. It applies to soldiers.

The issue has been publicly aired to a point where AlJazerra has used it to whip up anti-American sentiments throughout Islam.

And just for the record, I do think this Administration is wrong on a lot of things --from affirmative action to budget issues to reforming SS to other issues.

Prisoner abuse wasn't swept under the rug. The people who acted improperly are atoning. The problem was the Newsweek article, not America's handling of the scandal.

I tend to stay away from the P&R discussions, but MiMatt38, the Newsweek article snafu pales in comparison to the military abuse of prisoners at Gitmo. And what did Pres. Bush do about it?

A) Fire the grossly incompetent Secretary of Defense.
Called Rumsfeld the best Secretary of Defense the country ever had.

Correct answer

Sounds like Newsweek is doing more about their mistake than the Bush administration is doing regarding their egregious error.

pat125, this makes the think about the old phrase "thou doth protest too much". This crooked administration goes after a newsmagazine that might have printed something incorrectly yet they can't see the things they have lied about and misled the country time and time again. But when their mistakes are revealed they deny and say people are playing politics.