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Full Version: Do all the lies really matter? Of course they do.
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charliecstl
An excellent piece on why the administration's unwillingness to tell the truth is a problem.

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And it should matter whether or not our government is either incompetent and didn't know what they were doing or were dishonest and refused to say. The unspoken truth is that either as a people we were misled, or we were lied to, about the real reason for this war. Either we made a huge - and unforgivable - mistake, an arrogant or ignorant mistake, or we are swaggering around the world like a blind giant, flailing in all directions while the rest of the world watches in horror or in ridicule.

If Bill Clinton's definition of \"is\" matters, surely this matters. If a president's sex life matters, surely a president's use of global force against some of the weakest people in the world matters. If a president's word in a court of law about a private indiscretion matters, surely a president's word to the community of nations and the security of millions of people matters.

And if not, why not? If not, surely there is something as wrong with us as citizens, as thinkers, as Christians as there must be with some facet of the government. If wars that the public says are wrong yesterday - as over 70% of U.S. citizens did before the attack on Iraq - suddenly become \"right\" the minute the first bombs drop, what kind of national morality is that?
and

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What is the depth of the American soul if we can allow destruction to be done in our name and the name of \"liberation\" and never even demand an accounting of its costs, both personal and public, when it is over?

We like to take comfort in the notion that people make a distinction between our government and ourselves. We like to say that the people of the world love Americans, they simply mistrust our government. But excoriating a distant and anonymous \"government\" for wreaking rubble on a nation in pretense of good requires very little of either character or intelligence.

What may count most, however, is that we may well be the ones Proverbs warns when it reminds us: \"Kings take pleasure in honest lips; they value the one who speaks the truth.\" The point is clear: If the people speak and the king doesn't listen, there is something wrong with the king. If the king acts precipitously and the people say nothing, something is wrong with the people.

It may be time for us to realize that in a country that prides itself on being democratic, we are our government. And the rest of the world is figuring that out very quickly.

From where I stand, that matters.
It does matter. And I hope that it will matter more and more every day.

Entire article: Is There Anything That Matters Anymore?
danimal
For an opposing viewpoint, we resurrect Freddie Mercury:
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Nothing really matters. Anyone can see.
Nothing really matters. Nothing really matters to me.  
rolleyes.gif
Charlie in the Trees
Jesucristo! How many effing simulataneous threads do you folks have to maintain that keep repeating the same old same old over and over and over and over again?

Y'know, in the sports threads, we're able to keep to one thread per subject. I already know what the cabal of lefties think about George W. Bush and the Iraq War. Wake me when you guys have a new idea.
fantomas
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Charlie in the Trees
[QB] Jesucristo!  How many effing simulataneous threads do you folks have to maintain that keep repeating the same old same old over and over and over and over again?
The truth really bothers you, doesn't it? sad.gif Wake us all up when W. tells the TRUTH for a change.
Munson Man
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Charlie in the Trees:
Wake me when you guys have a new idea.
Jeez, you may be in for the longest nap since Rip Van Winkle!!
Torgauer
I've always been troubled by the question of morality in politics. At best, all politicians manipulate the truth. Politics is all about winning elections, either by telling people what they want to hear, buying them out, or deceiving them outright. Usually we slap a "leadership" label on a jar full of deception and half-truths.

When you think about it, anyone who's going to be President must be willing to commit murder and probably will need to do so at some point during their term. Whether it's authorizing the CIA to knock off some terrorist or spy, engaging in war, or simply allowing people to die of disease of malnutrition. Isn't the idea of morality in politics really a question of degree? Don't we really want/need someone who'll be immoral, just not excessively so? It seems to me that lying is really the least of the sins a President is going to commit. I've always thought of Presidents as sort of sacrificial lambs elected to office to do all the evil things that need to be done but that we don't want to do or hear about ourselves. We're more comfortable with the illusion that our leaders are moral and others in the world are evil. It's always seemed a very subjective judgement to me.

I know I'm rather cynical. I'd be happy if someone could convince me that ethics and morality are legitimate qualifications for the job. I know presidential candidates talk about returning moral leadership to the nation but aren't they really just suckering the electorate? It seems to work but do people really believe that stuff?

[ June 13, 2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Torgauer ]
fantomas
Torgauer, obviously all human beings lie, presidents no less than average citizens. And politicians are in a profession that is known for mendaciousness.

The question for me is not so much morals as ETHICS. This president has shown himself to be hypocritical and unethical again and again. The question of official public lies is salient with regard to his ethics: The fact is that he may have lied in order to launch a war is deeply unethical; it's not as if he were, as others have pointed out, covering up sexcapades or even fudging on taxes. His lies have led to the deaths of over 3500 people, including over 150 American and British servicepeople, and have thrown not only a country of 20 million people, but a region, into turmoil. In fact, his lies have roiled the international system of diplomacy and alliances that we have.

Also, his public lies have not benefitted the country as a whole, but primarily a small and already very powerful subset of the nation, an élite cadre that seeks to control even more of our resources and effect a political revolution that will sustain their power. The lies benefitting only a small cadre of Americans is true even with the situation in Iraq; we are no safer because of this war, are we? Given what we have discovered, the monster we supplanted with chaos was a direct threat to his *own* people, but not to us. From a moral standpoint, of course, it was a good thing to rid Iraq of him, but viewed in a larger way, the method we used does not seem to have been the best. Now the Iraqis are suffering privations worse than they did before Saddam was thrown out of office (the looting, killings, and destruction of the country continues unabated, and remnants of Saddam's supporters are resurgent). In fact, the primary beneficiaries so far appear to be military contractors and the oil companies, who are set to reap the benefits as I type this.

This president operates out of political expediency again and again, often using lies to cover up what he's really doing. I refuse to be so cynical as to accept this simply as the status quo ante and ethically okay. Especially given that the last president was crucified for PRIVATE lies that became public, as well as for accusations of his behavior that were repeated shown to be untrue.

[ June 13, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
Bill W
Where Bush & Company are morally inferior to many previous lying White House occupants is that lies are the official means of promoting every major policy: Cutting taxes for cutting services, conservation for environmental destruction, imminent threats to security for occupying a weak nation, aiming to stimulate the economy for enriching the wealthy, etc.

Never confuse their motives with their words, except when the Resident said this "would all be easier if I was a dictator."
fantomas
More about those mobile labs and the blatant LIE--what else was it?--that W told in Poland:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2003/...bile/index.html

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Joe Conason's Journal
June 16, 2003  |  True believers of false claims  
The White House can't fool all the people all of the time, but with the help of the mainstream media the administration has deceived a lot of people about issues of global importance. A national survey reported in today's Knight-Ridder newspapers says that one-third of the American public \"believes U.S. forces found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq\" -- which means they also believed the false (and universally quoted) statement  to that effect the president made two weeks ago on Polish television. The political science professors who analyzed that survey for the University of Maryland are wondering why a substantial minority would think they have seen proof that doesn't yet exist.

Theories aside, the most suggestive fact found by the mid-May poll is that respondents who supported the war are more likely than others to believe that weapons of mass destruction have already been discovered. They won't let the facts disturb their opinions. Weak, credulous media coverage of administration claims also serves to confuse the citizenry. [snipped]

Bush and his Cabinet may face equally bad numbers if they fail to deliver on their repeated promises of proof that those fearsome weapons exist.
Meanwhile, the few scraps of \"proof\" they have offered to date don't seem to be holding up so well. Yesterday the Observer (of London)reported that those mobile \"biological laboratories\" promoted by Bush, Colin Powell and the CIA have been debunked by an \"official British investigation.\" London's own \"biological weapons experts\" have determined that the pair of trailers found in northern Iraq aren't \"mobile germ warfare labs\" but instead produced hydrogen for artillery balloons, \"as the Iraqis have continued to insist.\" Assuming that the Observer accurately reported those British government conclusions, perhaps someday the hoax of the mobile labs will be reported in the American media.
And still more:

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Now [Nicholas] Kristof is dismantling the administration alibi that its top officials didn't know the Niger tale was a fake, supported by forged documents, until after the President hyped it in his State of the Union address. He recapitulates the account in yesterday's Washington Post, in which Walter Pincus revealed that a former US ambassador to Niger visited the African country a year ago and reported back on the fakery and forging to the CIA. Supposedly, the ex-envoy's assessment didn't reach the President, the Vice President, the National Security Adviser or the Secretary of State until quite recently. But according to Kristof:

\"I hear something different. My understanding is that while Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet may not have told Mr. Bush that the Niger documents were forged, lower C.I.A. officials did tell both the vice president's office and National Security Council staff members. Moreover, I hear from another source that the C.I.A.'s operations side and its counterterrorism center undertook their own investigations of the documents, poking around in Italy and Africa, and also concluded that they were false — a judgment that filtered to the top of the C.I.A.

\"Meanwhile, the State Department's intelligence arm, the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, independently came to the exact same conclusion about those documents, according to Greg Thielmann, a former official there. Mr. Thielmann said he was 'quite confident' that the conclusion had been passed up to the top of the State Department.\"
 
In other words – and this is my comment, not Kristof's – they're still lying.

While Bush, Cheney and company continue to predict vindication, the latest reports from the field aren't encouraging. Barton Gellman, the excellent Washington Post reporter who has covered this story without truckling to the Pentagon, reports that Task Force 20, a super-secret unit recruited from the Army's Delta Force, has been in Iraq looking for chemical and biological weapons, long-range missiles and other forbidden items since last March. What have they found?
A high-ranking administration official blusteringly warns, \"People who say there are no weapons are going to be quite embarrassed within weeks or months, when the material comes out.\" But Gellman evidently gives more credence to officials closer to the scene, whose views are quite different:

\"Sources with firsthand knowledge of [Task Force 20's] mission and personnel, and others with access to its reports, said the team has found no working nonconventional munitions, long-range missiles or missile parts, bulk stores of chemical or biological warfare agents or enrichment technology for the core of a nuclear weapon.\" That wasn't for want of effort. The task force \"has shipped hundreds of samples to Army and Navy laboratories in Maryland,\" a \"senior officer\" told the Post, \"including about 90 this month.\" So far, none of those hundreds of samples has turned up definitively positive.
ung
The reason why a third of americans surveyed believe that we have found WMD? Because the administration and the media keep repeating that we have.

(of course these claims are always retracted a few days later. But who's listening then?)
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