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fantomas
NY Times: Finding Homosexual Threads in Lincoln's Legend

So says C. A. Tripp in a fascinating new book, The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln. Although one of the major Lincoln scholars, Harvard prof emeritus David Herbert Donald disagrees, other prior Lincoln biographers and scholars had alluded to or suppressed the gay evidence, and some of Donald's former students agree with Tripp. Looks like Tripp has put together some key clues, some more convincing than others. It is well known that Lincoln liked to share beds with guys. To give one example:

QUOTE
Mr. Tripp charts Lincoln's relationships with other men, including Billy Greene, with whom Lincoln supposedly shared a bed in New Salem, Ill. [Law partner] Herndon said Greene told him that Lincoln's thighs \"were as perfect as a human being Could be.\"
At any rate, the gay-poem writing first GOP president, who was also one of the finest American orators EVER and the greatest war president we've ever had (tied of course with FDR), is probably turning over in his \"lavender\"-- to use Carl Sandburg's epithet--grave given where his party has ended up in 2004.

Or, as Larry Kramer says:

QUOTE
\"It's a revolutionary book because the most important president in the history of the United States was gay,\" he said. \"Now maybe they'll leave us alone, all those people in the party he founded.\"


[ December 15, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
jaydeenyc
I read this too. To me the main point is that “gay” wasn’t a concept back then and in the male-dominated society, men were kinda allowed to sleep with eachother in the tradition of ancient Greece without too much impunity.
RazorbackTX
Abe Lincoln - working within.
danimal
QUOTE
jaydeenyc:
To me the main point is that “gay” wasn’t a concept back then and in the male-dominated society, men were kinda allowed to sleep with each other in the tradition of ancient Greece
I've read that too, and from what I've read there were other differences as well:
  • Men often shared beds for practical reasons unrelated to what we now call \"sleeping together\" (the modern expectation of separate beds, including for minor siblings, presumes modern levels of affluence).
  • Physical and verbal expressions of affection between men who were platonic friends were much more common (in part because such gestures were not interpreted, at least publicly, as sexual).
  • Men and women were segregated from each other (and women were few and far between in some rural areas) in ways that haven't been the case in this country since the early 1900s (but still are in some parts of the world).
  • Sex and sexuality in general weren't discussed as publicly (and seemingly endlessly) then as they are now.

That's not to say Lincoln couldn't have had one or more romantic or physical relationships with men. He could have (the Log Cabin folks chose that symbol for a reason, and I don't mean maple syrup wink ), but his sleeping arrangements alone don't prove it.
W.
I think the article is interesting from a historical point of view, but otherwise pretty unimportant. I don't think there was any clear evidence presented that would scream "Abe was gay". There were certainly eyebrow-raising things, but no smoking gun. So, it's interesting to speculate on this, but only as a discussion on his life, not on how this might have any sort of effect on current affairs.

Larry Kramer must be high if he's thinking this will change anything in the current GOP. If anything, I'd guess they would dismiss and/or attack this article as another attempt by the "liberals" to push their "gay agenda" onto America by "smearing" the reputation of one of our most respected presidents. It certainly won't change the current party's attitudes/beliefs.
illini n milwaukee
Gee, I can't wait to see Fox News report on this one!

And who wants to bet some crazy Senator wants to pass some legislation saying he's straight...
chi-town
Too bad the sepia-tone pictures we have of Lincoln don't clearly show the colors of the rain-bow flag that always flew behind him. tongue.gif
I'll say one thing, if it definitive proof could be found that he personally chose the color scheme of the Springfield house parlor (restored and open for tours -- very interesting), then I'd call that a smoking gun for him being a raging queen. :eeek: The clashing colors and patterns just about burnt out my corneas.
George Twins fan
QUOTE
Mr. Tripp charts Lincoln's relationships with other men, including Billy Greene, with whom Lincoln supposedly shared a bed in New Salem, Ill. [Law partner] Herndon said Greene told him that Lincoln's thighs \"were as perfect as a human being Could be.\"  
That's hot.
Lksimcoe
If my memory of US history serves me right, didn't Lincolns son burn his fathers papers in the 1920's? I think I remember reading that he said he burnt them to cover his mother's descent into madness after their youngest son died, and also to "protect" he fathers legacy.
It makes one wonder what was in those papers that would be so bad his son would have burnt them.
Lksimcoe
QUOTE
Lksimcoe:
If my memory of US history serves me right, didn't Lincolns son burn his fathers papers in the 1920's?  I think I remember reading that he said he burnt them to cover his mother's descent into madness after their youngest son died, and also to \"protect\" he fathers legacy.
It makes one wonder what was in those papers that would be so bad his son would have burnt them.
But hey, it's not only the US that has interesting dead leaders. One of the late Canadian Prime Ministers, MacKenzie King, who was PM from the 1930's to the late 40's used to channnel the spirit of his dead mother through his dog. When his dog died, he used to hold seances at the Prime Minister's residence to talk to his mother AND his dog.
He also used to go to the red light district, (about a 10 minute walk) and spend the night talking with the prostitutes.
He himself, had dedicated staff members who were with him for years. Some of them former hustlers.

He also collected the ruins of old buildings, re-built the facades on his estate in the country, and hold seances there as well.

Oh, and he was a screaming queen.

I'll take Lincoln and his "creamy thighs" any day.

Oy!
DCBucky
QUOTE
Lksimcoe:
If my memory of US history serves me right, didn't Lincolns son burn his fathers papers in the 1920's?
Here's the official word from the Library of Congress:

"No gift was pursued with more patience and diligence than the papers of Abraham Lincoln. Librarian of Congress Herbert Putnam first approached the president's son, Robert Todd Lincoln, about the donation of his father's papers in 1901. Continued efforts to obtain the papers bore fruit in 1919 to the relief of all interested parties, for Robert had threatened to burn his father's papers and was apparently once interrupted in the act of doing so. He closed President Lincoln's papers to all researchers until twenty-one years after his own death, a step that produced a crop of rumors that the documents would reveal the complicity of the president's Cabinet in his assassination. The opening of the papers with great fanfare in 1947 dispelled the notion that they contained scandalous secrets."

I read elsewhere that the papers he burned he had deemed "useless".

Link to LoC site -- so that's the "official word" -- but there's a treasure map on the back of the Gettysburg Address -- shows the route to a Super Bowl win for the Vikings!

btw interesting trivia about R.T. Lincoln -- while he was famously absent from his father's assasination, he was present at assasinations of Garfield here in D.C. and McKinley at the Pan-American Exhibition in Buffalo (all Sondheim fans can sing along here to the "Ballad of Czolgosz".) No dbout Teddy Roosevelt never invited him anywhere -- but one wonders if he was in San Francisco in 1923 for Harding's death wink

[ December 17, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: DCBucky ]
danimal
QUOTE
DCBucky:
rumors that the documents would reveal the complicity of the president's Cabinet in his assassination
That's only one of the many controversies surrounding Lincoln's life and death. He may be revered now, but he had plenty of enemies back then (and for years after). And Mrs. L's mental illness was the kind of thing families hid if they could in those days. So the son could've had any number of motives to burn things.

And I agree with Weaselman that the religious right types would blow this off (so to speak), and it wouldn't change anything. I wonder if even a sex scandal among their own ranks would have the effect it did in the '80s, when they had far less control of the system than they do now.

Bottom line: We may never know, and what if we did?
DallasUNC
QUOTE
Lksimcoe:
 
QUOTE
Lksimcoe:
If my memory of US history serves me right, didn't Lincolns son burn his fathers papers in the 1920's?  I think I remember reading that he said he burnt them to cover his mother's descent into madness after their youngest son died, and also to \"protect\" he fathers legacy.
It makes one wonder what was in those papers that would be so bad his son would have burnt them.
But hey, it's not only the US that has interesting dead leaders. One of the late Canadian Prime Ministers, MacKenzie King, who was PM from the 1930's to the late 40's used to channnel the spirit of his dead mother through his dog. When his dog died, he used to hold seances at the Prime Minister's residence to talk to his mother AND his dog.
He also used to go to the red light district, (about a 10 minute walk) and spend the night talking with the prostitutes.
He himself, had dedicated staff members who were with him for years. Some of them former hustlers.

He also collected the ruins of old buildings, re-built the facades on his estate in the country, and hold seances there as well.

Oh, and he was a screaming queen.

I'll take Lincoln and his \"creamy thighs\" any day.

Oy!
That story certainly beats the pants, pun intended, off of J Edgar Hoover (former CIA director) and his cross dressing fetish smile.gif
MIB
QUOTE
DallasUNC:
That story certainly beats the pants, pun intended, off of J Edgar Hoover (former CIA director) and his cross dressing fetish   smile.gif  
I'm no fan of Hoover, but those rumors were debunked some time ago.
MarylandVol
I'm still laughing at the visual image of someone trying to channel their dead mom through their dog!

tongue.gif
fantomas
Here's Gore Vidal on Lincoln:

Vanity Fair: Was Lincoln bisexual?

QUOTE
The young Lincoln had a love affair with a handsome youth and store owner, Joshua Speed, in Springfield, Illinois. They shared a bed for four years, not necessarily, in those frontier days, the sign of a smoking gun—only messy male housekeeping. Nevertheless, four years is a long time to be fairly uncomfortable. The gun proved to be the letters that passed between them when Joshua went home to Kentucky to marry, while Lincoln was readying himself for marriage in Springfield. Each youth betrays considerable anxiety about the wedding night ahead. Can they hack it? To Sandburg's credit he picked up on this (who could not after reading the letters?), but, first time around, I skipped his poetical comments on Lincoln's \"streak of lavender and spots soft as May violets.\" Sandburg was a typical American of his time and place; he knew that any male with sexual feelings for another male was a maiden trapped inside a male body. Even the great Mae West, our first commanding sexologist, was convinced that fairies were simply women, obliged, through no fault of their own, to inhabit crude male bodies: Plangently Doctor Mae mourned her lost sisters.

Predictably, most Lincoln authorities prefer to ignore the implications of the Lincoln-Speed letters. But not Jonathan Ned Katz; in 2001 this relentless scholar wrote a study of their \"love affair\" as an example of sex between men before the invention of homosexuality; a word and generic concept that dates back only to the late 19th century, while \"heterosexuality,\" previously popularly known as \"just sex,\" is now the name for a new admirable team whose first appearance in public print was in a 1924 edition of, I fear, the New York Times. But more to the point, Tripp notes that although Lincoln was plainly bisexual, as demonstrated by the four children that he had with his wife, there is practically no other compelling record of his heterosexuality. There are no girlfriends in youth. Ann Rutledge (the great love that ended in her tragic death, which he forever mourned) proves to have been an invention of his law partner William Herndon, who, perhaps suspecting that the man he had practiced law with for 16 years had remained \"uncomfortable\" with women all his life and so needed some beefing up in the boy-girl department. Yet all evidence suggests that Lincoln's stepmother got it right when after Lincoln's death she said, \"He was not very fond of girls.\" Nevertheless, Herndon feverishly \"researched\" and embellished the Ann Rutledge story for years, but a generation or two of scholar squirrels have successfully shot that story down. Later, during his presidency, when most incumbents express affection—and more—for women not their wives, Lincoln was already a marble statue to Family Values. Now we know that he was never unenthralled by those May violets.
and

QUOTE
Tripp is described by his publisher as a \"psychologist, therapist, and sex-researcher\" (for Kinsey). His ground-breaking book The Homosexual Matrix (1975) firmly \"discovered\" that homosexuality is inborn, not acquired. What Tripp learned from Kinsey and associates is a way of gauging the hetero-homo balance in men. \"Kinsey's figures on the pervasiveness of the homosexual experiences of men dazzled the ever inquisitive Tripp,\" as historian Jean Baker writes in her introduction to his study of Lincoln. More to the point were Kinsey's investigations into why some men were more responsive than others to same-sexuality and how these responses tend to vary throughout life's stages. One finding that Tripp uses in evaluating Lincoln: Kinsey's research showed that those males who entered puberty early were more apt to seek homosexual outlets if only because girls were out of reach. They were also less apt, as they grew up, to have sexual hang-ups of the sort late bloomers did because society has more time to indoctrinate a teenager than a nine-year-old. Much remarked upon in Lincoln's rustic world was his sudden spurt of growth at about nine years old, some four years before the average of other males. Also, his fascination with sex stories whose obscenity alarmed even him—he was an early stand-up comic and, as such, was appreciated in the stag world of the law. Descriptions of his performances (and the stories told) even suggest a mild case of Tourette's syndrome. Certainly, anal sex was a common denominator to his tales. Later in life when someone suggested he publish his funny stories, he was shocked: he compared them to open privies. Incidentally, the one thing that the Kinsey report, Tripp's The Homosexual Matrix, and my The City and the Pillar had in common, aside from the unwelcome candor about our human estate, was the hysteria we created at The New York Times. The three books were not only attacked in the paper but the Times refused to advertise Kinsey or me once the contents of our infernal books were known; also, in my case, seven novels subsequent to the proscribed book were not reviewed in the daily Times, and never would be, the daily reviewer (Orville Prescott) proudly told my publisher, E. P. Dutton. Now, in the 56 years since 1948, The City and the Pillar has never been out of print in English or in a number of other languages.

Tripp has interesting \"new\" material on Lincoln's encounters as a young man in New Salem, Illinois (where Lincoln lived from 1831-37); he reports on \"contacts\" with merchant A.Y. Ellis and fellow lawyer Henry Whitney, the last observing that Lincoln seemed always to be courting him: Whitney also reported that Lincoln said that sexual contact was a \"harp of a thousand strings.\" So what form did these contacts take? One hint is given by Billy Greene, who shared a bed and a grammar teacher (not together) with Lincoln in New Salem around 1831. Greene described Lincoln's muscular figure as attractive to him, commenting in particular on his powerful thighs, which suggests a form of sexuality much indulged in by citizens of classical Athens: since any citizen would lose citizenship if anally penetrated by a man, \"femoral intercourse\" was a useful substitute; that is, orgasm, mutual or otherwise, between firm thighs.

What then did researcher Tripp discover over the last decades about Lincoln's lavender streak and those soft May violets? The answer is a great deal of circumstantial detail, of which some is incontrovertible except perhaps to the eye of faith, which, as we all know, is most selective and ingenious when it comes to the ignoring of evidence.
gmginsfo
Andrew Sullivan's excellent take on the "Was Abe Gay?" controversy.

To those who would argue that XIX Century men usually wrote each other in such endearing terms, I'd say no. That practice was already declining from its Enlightenment-era height and was well into a more restrained tone by the time Lincoln became lettered. It was the literary equivalent of what was noted in "Picturing Men," the effort to make men more manly by posing them, and their writings, in less intimate and more formal ways. Too, it's reflective of the modern emphasis on clarity and economy of expression, but I think we've lost a nice thing along the way. At any rate, Tripp's analysis of Lincoln's writings and records are enough to convince me he was at least bi, if not what we'd today call gay. I'd give him a 6 on Kinsey's scale.
RazorbackTX
Abe had to be gay...he described himself as "straight acting and appearing."
bear321
I am currently reading the C. A. Tripp book, The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln. I would have to say that if you were to determine the sexuality of Abraham Lincoln based on this book alone he would have definitely been gay. Maybe not as gay as Richard Simmons or Elton John but pretty darn gay.

The part in the book when Joshua Speed leaves Lincoln after spending four years sleeping in his bed and Lincoln having a complete nervous breakdown would be proof enough that he was gay. Lincoln was physically ill for 3 weeks after Joshua Speed left him to return to Kentucky.

There are lots of letters in the book too. Very interesting read. I recommend it to all here.
sportinlife
QUOTE
commenting in particular on his powerful thighs, which suggests a form of sexuality much indulged in by citizens of classical Athens: since any citizen would lose citizenship if anally penetrated by a man, \"femoral intercourse\" was a useful substitute; that is, orgasm, mutual or otherwise, between firm thighs.
This again suggests internalized homphobia since it would be difficult if not impossible during any time period to monitor an act as private as sexual intercourse to enforce a law. Apparently men were taught, and believed, that taking it up the butt took their manhood.
danimal
QUOTE
gmginsfo:
At any rate, Tripp's analysis of Lincoln's writings and records are enough to convince me he was at least bi, if not what we'd today call gay.  I'd give  him a 6 on Kinsey's scale.
Or at least a 5, based on the balance of what's been reported so far. It's possible that he married and had kids for more than just social conformity, but even then, all indications are that his primary attraction was to other men. Considering that we'll probably never find the equivalent of the stained blue dress, I think Tripp's analysis is about as conclusive as we can expect to get any time soon. :cool:

But I don't think it'll faze the so-called religious right at all, because if Lott and Ashcroft are any indication, most of them think the wrong side won the war. rolleyes.gif
George Twins fan
So if Lincoln really was queer, do you think they'll issue a three dollar bill and put him on it instead of the fiver?
jaydeenyc
from the Back Page by Paul Rudnick, in last week's New Yorker:

FURTHER PROOF THAT LINCOLN WAS GAY

The first draft of the Gettysburg Address began, “Four score and seven years ago-ish….”

When Lincoln was a boy, he would walk twenty miles through the snow every morning to buy magazines.

Lincoln was raised in a log cabin with a dirt floor, which he vacuumed.

Lincoln liked to say, “All men are created equal, except at the beach.”

Lincoln’s greatest regret was the movie version of “Phantom.”

Lincoln named his horse Mister Horse.

Lincoln wanted to call it “The Emancipation Proclamation – The New Sensation!”

Lincoln urged Congress to bind the nation’s wounds “with malice toward none, with charity for all, “although under his breath he murmured, “except for a certain red-headed lieutenant, and he knows why.”

As a young country lawyer, Lincoln often bartered his services for house seats.

For more than four years during his twenties, Lincoln shared a bed with his friend Joshua Fry Speed for his winning personality, and not because his name sounds like a George Foreman product.

The friendship finally ended when Speed told Lincoln, “You’re not the President of me!”

Another friend, Billy Greene, said that Lincoln’s thighs were “as perfect as a human being’s could be.” Lincoln was said to have responded, “It’s called Pilates.”

Lincoln was known as the Rail-Splitter. Few people realize that this was a cocktail.

Just before his first inauguration, he told Mary Todd Lincoln to go home and take one thing off.

Lincoln grew his beard because he thought it looked hot on Ethan Hawke.

Upon entering Ford’s Theatre on that fateful night, Lincoln whispered to his wife, “I hear it’s slow.”

When Lincoln was told that Lee had surrendered, he gasped and exclaimed, “Oh no she didn’t!”
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