Dammit, one of you nice Canadian boys will have to rescue me here...hurry up and marry me, I can't wait! wink

But if the Blue states, which include many of the nation's wealthiest states, leave, who will underwrite what remains of the USA? I mean, just think of losing California, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Michigan, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Maryland, Delaware, Oregon, Washington, Rhode Island, and Washington, DC? (And add in Hawai'i for a great warm place to visit--Pacific Canada!)

The new Canada would be one of the richest countries on this earth; truthfully, Canada already is one of the richest countries, but it would definitely outpace everyone else after the annexation.

The new USA would be much more like Mexico, or Brazil!

[ November 04, 2004, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

I find it amazing when I hear the US Media talk about Canada, and refer to us as some kind of White Trash cousin. After all, we have

A budget SURPLUS, 7 yrs in a row. And we have REDUCED our national debt by 30% in that time.

Almost full employement. Although the unemployment rate is at 7.2%, 7% is generally considered close to full employement.

We are an oil and natural gas EXPORTER. I know I've mentioned it before, but we supply 30% of the USA's imported oil and 93% of the USA's imported natural gas.

We were the only country in the G8 to not have a deficit last year.

We are the only country in the G8 that is INCREASING immigration in order to meet demand.

We have recently added an additional 2 MILLION acres to protected land in Ontario. It is now frozen from development.

We were the first G8 country to approve Kyoto.

We have a world renowned social safety net system, constructed with the beleif that ALL people are entitled to Health care, pensions, prescription drugs etc. And we have recently added child care to that right of access.

We're not perfect, but hey, add those sexy Minnisotans, and we'll be even better. (again its the big, blonde, muscular, dumb as a fencepost fantasy).

[img]http://tinypic.com/fxo42[/img]

Looks good to me!!! More like "Jeebus-land" if you axe me. eek!

LK, Canmarc and all you others up there, I love your country and get up there whenever I can because I like it so much. But really, if you were offered just the red counties would you really want 'em? Those slackers would reduce that surplus of yours and drive up your low unemployment rate quicker than you could say "Tim Horton's!"

I love that map. Love it! It's too bad it won't actually come true, so that I still need some fine Canadian man to propose to me -- why am I getting NO proposals, dammit??? wink

[quote]fantomas:
[/quote]But if the Blue states, which include many of the nation's wealthiest states, leave, who will underwrite what remains of the USA? I mean, just think of losing California, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Michigan, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Maryland, Delaware, Oregon, Washington, Rhode Island, and Washington, DC? (And add in Hawai'i for a great warm place to visit--Pacific Canada!)

The new Canada would be one of the richest countries on this earth; truthfully, Canada already is one of the richest countries, but it would definitely outpace everyone else after the annexation.

The new USA would be much more like Mexico, or Brazil! [/QUOTE]

It would be funny to see how quickly the economy fell apart for 'Jesusland' the United States of Canada would have to worry about illegal evangelical 'repug'licans trying to sneak across the border from their bankrupt 'Jesusland'

One can only dream wink

[quote]MarinerFan:
[quote]fantomas:
[/quote]But if the Blue states, which include many of the nation's wealthiest states, leave, who will underwrite what remains of the USA? I mean, just think of losing California, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Michigan, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Maryland, Delaware, Oregon, Washington, Rhode Island, and Washington, DC? (And add in Hawai'i for a great warm place to visit--Pacific Canada!)

The new Canada would be one of the richest countries on this earth; truthfully, Canada already is one of the richest countries, but it would definitely outpace everyone else after the annexation.

The new USA would be much more like Mexico, or Brazil! [/quote]It would be funny to see how quickly the economy fell apart for 'Jesusland' the United States of Canada would have to worry about illegal evangelical 'repug'licans trying to sneak across the border from their bankrupt 'Jesusland'

One can only dream wink [/QUOTE]


We wouldn't worry. We'd just do what we do now.

Ship 'em to Alberta.

Joe SWEETY!! Your prayers are answered.

Simply go to the new website

www.marryanamerican.ca

And register.

Yes kidlets, it's real!!

How apropos: The Advocate magazine just posted an article on their website written by an American who fell in love with a Canadian and immigrated to Canada.

Living the American Dream... in Canada

Apparently, outsporters are not the only ones contemplating a move to Canada

I can't recall such a reaction to an election before.

From today's Globe and Mail: Dispirited U.S. gays choosing Canada

Thanks for the link canmark
I'm still looking pretty hard for jobs in higher ed. It sucks, b/c I still need to finish my dissertation...

These are flights of fancy, in more ways than one. First, how may of these promised moves will have actually occurred within, say, six months? Second, of those who actually DO move, what does that say about their priorities? That they put their personal lives first over their national allegiance and willingness to stay and fight the good fight? Finally, the imagined "need" to emigrate betrays other needs, I fear. These people are overreacting and displaying a persecution complex - as well as a bit of a narcissistic one - in a BIG way, and that shows a serious separation from perspective and reality. Maybe it's liberalism, not conservativism, that's the "mental disease." Go if you must, it's your right, but make sure you know what you're doing before you actually do it. frown

Wasn't Mr. Balwin moving 4 years ago? I'm still waiting for that one to happen.

Let me be VERY clear then, gmginsfo:

I fight the good fight, and I'm burnt out. I defy anyone, ANYONE, to call into question my dedication to social justice and improving the lives of women, gays and lesbians, and minorities. They'll be picking a fight, and I will
KICK
THEIR
ASS

But let me try to say what I mean in another way: To blithely denigrate someone's personal decision to move is tatamount to minimizing the pain - yes PAIN - someone may be feeling.

Why the hell would I want to live here if I've been the victim of violence, and see America's turn to JesusLand as an endorsement of more violence on gays and lesbians?!?

What allegiance do I have to a nation that sees me as a third class citizen?

What kind of personal life can I aspire to if this nation doesn't let me be authentically me.

Saying, "oh, that's just a flight of fancy" runs the risk of telling religious zealots and ultra-conversatives, "oh, things for gay people in the US aren't that bad."

After all, we can only:
- be fired, legally, because we are gay
- be kicked out of our apartments, legally, because we are gay
- be denied a job, legally, because we are gay
- be denied access to our life-partners on their death-bed, legally, because we are gay
- be denied our biological parenting rights, legally, because we are gay
- be denied a marriage license, which is a legal contract, not a religious contract, and have it denied to us legally, because we are gay

So, you know what, if I search my soul, check in with family and friends, give local/national activism a shot, and still determine that a move IS for me, sure, I'll let you question me on my extremely personal decision, but don't be suprised if I tell you to f#ck off.

Post-Script:
We're all about complaining here, but so very few of the threads posted about social action get any response. I posted two messages after the election, one FIGHT and one FLIGHT. If you, or anyone else, is interesting in "fighting the good fight", then why the hell aren't there MORE MESSAGES on that thread?

I don't think people's reasons for immigration reveal just lack of patriotism or unwillingness to put up a fight. They move for opportunities and for a better life.

Some people are moving to the U.S. because they see an economic opportunity there that isn't available in Pakistan or China or Mexico or... Canada.

They may seek a culture, a social system, a climate, even, that is preferable to them.

They may want to avoid persecution--politcal or social.

They may move to be with a loved one.

But nobody's trying to shame immigrants to the U.S. for their lack of patriotism or unwillingness to fight injustice in their home country... why should we do that for Americans who want to seek fulfilment elsewhere?

Why should anyone feel compelled to stay in the USA and fight to make this nation better when this nation doesn't want to treat us as equals? The USA doesn't deserve to benefit from our talents.

So I guess you'll be changing your screen name soon to "Joe in (fill in name of non-U.S. city)?

If I had a college degree and skills/experience that would allow me to easily get a job in Canada, or if I were independently wealthy, I'd consider it.

The Larry Kramer speech made me think. A lot. Fight or flight?

Fight or fligtht?
So confused.

Anyone in NYC?
Political action coffee meeting?
This weekend?

Anyone?
Meet, talk about Larry Kramer's speech, or how beautiful Vancouver is?

Am I just being random, and tired?

You know JIP, I've had THE worst most trying year of my professional career. If I can/have survived it, then I can tell you to quit bitching and do something. If you see yourself as having no education or skills, you are stuck in life. Don't count on getting a job you enjoy or challenges you, because you will never find it with that attitude.

You need to sit down and look at what you want, starting with moving. Then you should look inside yourself and find out what skills you have to market to people, and go for it. Remember, don't make any decisions based on the "grass is always greener", Or PF live in AZ, good place to move... or you can grab stings booty in LA...

I will make a slightly different suggestion - it is never too late to go back to school and get a degree. When I went back to grad school, there were people in my class in their 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's, so where there's a will, there's a way.

PhillyFan - don't try and talk him into moving to AZ, as we want to talk you into moving back to Philly (don't worry, I'll get a protection order from the poster formerly known as BPT). wink

Pay for the Moving Van and i'm on my way!

PhillyFan, I thought the court order specified that you were to stay WEST of the Mississippi River.

Dear Bham Bham,

Dont make me visit my aunt in Bama.

Hugz and Kisses,

The Yankee

Your "platinum card" is on its way!

I already have two job prospects and found a couple of great houses up there. I'm sending a resume out tomorrow and getting in touch with a company we do business with from over here when the owner gets back next week from China. I guess I need to talk to someone in their immigration and see if I can really do this. If it works out I am definitly going. Hmmm, Vancouver or Jersey? Are you kidding? Vancouver is gorgeous and Cliff and I can have some protections without having to jump through hoops. Did anyone hear that Bush was going to roll back Oregon's Assisted suicide ruling?

Dear Gobar,

Don't let the American door hit you in the ass on your way out... wait, let it.

Love,

The stars and stripes

I'm sure it will slam shut as I leave.

Seriously though, now that I have had some time to calm down I feel I'm doing it for other reasons. I have always loved the mountains and the great outdoors but felt as a gay man, unwelcome in such areas and only accepted in the cities. I also have to say I came of age in the early 80's in the height of the AIDS epidemic and never felt really welcome here in the US except maybe during marches on Washington. I just don't have those feelings of nationalism for this country. I feel like I've been fighting for as long as I can remember. I will fight from over there but I feel the call of the wide open and plan to follow. After looking into it, I have to say that I think I'd still be inclined to go even if Kerry had won.

Oh and Joe in Philly, if you feel that way do what you need to do to get back into and through school. It is hard as shit but it will open the world to you. It took me 12 years to get my degree after running away from home at 16 cuz I decided to come out and it was the hardest thing I have ever done but so worth it. Set your mind to it and it takes 4 years. You will be here in 4 years regardless. Do it!!!

[ November 10, 2004, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: gobar ]

I'll second that. Gotta get back there to see more some time. Stunning.

Seatle's Olympic National Park is the closest thing to it in the US IMO.

With all due respect gmg, you're hardly the one to inspire folks to "fight the good fight", you've been doing that for quite some time trying to move your party towards the center and its moving the opposite direction. As we "stay tuned" the repugs keep getting more conservative.
(Check your party platform)

Inclusion wins!

I would echo the sentiments about Vancouver. Arguably, one of the most beautiful cities in the world. I would also add Calgary as an exceptionally beautiful place, with the Rocky Mountains not far off in the distance, and I understand there are alot of Americans that live there too, and maybe Marc, can back me up on this.

[ November 11, 2004, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: puckman1 ]

"I'd rather fight than switch!"

Vancouver really is one of the most beautiful cities I've ever seen and I hope to VISIT again there soon. Same for Banff and Jasper NPs, where a friend and I from Spokane drove to a few years ago. Absolutely gorgeous place, Canada, but my home's here and here I stay!

Stay put in AZ PhillyFan. You should be in a red state. (Or is that a drunken state?)

More like a state of total confusion.

You're right Puckman, the view of the Rockies just to the west of Calgary is spectacular and indeed there are over 80,000 Americans living here (one of the largest concentrations in Canada, yet I don't know a single one of them!) Calgary has been this country's fastest growing city for quite some time (presently just under one million), and has an unemployment rate well below the national average. Although Alberta has a reputation for being socially conservative (maybe due to all those Americans here? ) and is one of the provinces which does not yet recognize same-sex marriage, it really isn't so bad here. Over the past decade, the Alberta government has prohibited discrimination against gays and lesbians in many areas (such as accommodation, employment, pension benefits and even adoption). Although I'm not too much into the local 'gay scene', Calgary certainly has gay-oriented businesses (bars, restaurants, clothing, books, etc) and organizations (recreational, social, religious, etc). There are two professional sports teams located here. And contrary to what some of you may assume, Calgary's winters, while not as short and mild as Vancouver's, are easier to take than in most of the country, with little snow and temperatures often reaching 15C/60F due to the Chinook winds.

It seems that most English-speaking gay Americans think only of Toronto and Vancouver as potential Canadian cities to relocate. I can understand their appeal as they are the #1 and #3 cities in terms of size, are attractive, cosmopolitan, and both have large, vibrant gay communities. But they are also the two most expensive large cities to live in, and commuting distances can be very long. Thus I think Americans contemplating a move north should not limit themselves to just Toronto and Vancouver. Check out other cities, and I don't just mean Calgary...Ottawa and Victoria are very attractive places (IMUO), although in the case of Ottawa speaking French is an asset for job-seekers in certain fields.

On the other hand...moving to a foreign country (even one as near as Canada) is not only a big decision but involves an arduous, bureaucratic process. Certainly not a 'piece of cake' as the linked Advocate article above seems to suggest.

While this statement may be a little strong, I do agree with Gmg that some gay Americans may be over-reacting to the US election results when they speak of emigrating. I know the anti-gay backlash in some states must be very demoralizing to many of you, but don't give up the fight just yet! And if it's any consolation, remember there are many countries in the world where being gay is much more unpleasant than in the US.

[ November 11, 2004, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Marc ]

On the down side, it might not be so easy to immigrate to Canada. Award-winning actress Sharon Gless (Cagney & Lacey) is finding it difficult despite having worked in Toronto (on Queer As Folk) for the past 5 years. From today's Globe and Mail.

All this talk of moving cannot be serious, can it?? I enjoy so many of the minds at work on this site, but I am inclined to see so much of this as post-election whining. Even though I live in a blue state (maybe the bluest of the blue... in both senses of the word), I fully plan on doing what I can in 2006 and 2008 and beyond to turn the tide back against conservatives.

Apparently a LOT of Americans have taken this seriously over the past two weeks....according to one Canadian official quoted in this story "after the election, it's been crazy up here. The Canadian immigration Web site had 115,000 hits the day after the election -- from the U.S. alone. We usually only get 20,000 hits."

A new web site -- www.canadianalternative.com -- has even been set up to suggest Canada as "a viable option for its American clients, including anyone concerned about constitutional bans on gay marriage passed in 11 U.S. states this month" and suggests that people "find out why Canada is the perfect alternative for conscientious, forward-thinking Americans."

~Joe

[ November 16, 2004, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: gamecock ]

Ouch! eek! And I thought Pat Buchanan and Jesse Helms were the only Americans who don't love their northern neighbours. This caustic letter from a Democrat supporter in North Carolina appeared in Thursday's Calgary Herald . While I think she is being harsh and is generalizing way too much in her assessment of Canada, I have to admit there is a grain of truth in her comments and I do (sort of) understand where she is coming from. Although I don't object to others displaying their countries' symbols while travelling abroad (as long as it is done discreetly), personally I don't feel any need to do this kind of thing as I'm not worried about being mistaken for an American (regarding a certain humourous T-shirt I received from two US Outsports friends awhile ago, I think I might be safer wearing it only on this side of the border... wink )


Americans - Re: "Land of the flee," Editorial, Nov. 5.

I read your editorial concerning Americans who claim they will move to Canada due to George Bush's victory.

I'm sure there are a small number of U.S. citizens who dramatically proclaimed this intention, but really, Canada, don't flatter yourself.

No matter how upset liberal Democrats like myself are at the election's outcome, I would never seriously consider moving to a xenophobic nation whose inhabitants are so worried about being mistaken for Americans, they feel they must display the maple leaf in as many places they can when travelling, the whole time badmouthing their closest cultural partner, biggest trading partner and protector.

This practice was mocked in most of the countries I have travelled through, even in Britain, whose queen you can't seem to get off your money. This insular American has travelled through 23 countries and is well aware of immigration policies and happenings outside of my country's borders.

Thanks for the hockey, bacon, salmon and maple syrup (although I like Vermont's better), but beyond that, my fair neighbours to the north, you've got nothing.

Amy Wagner,

Winston-Salem, N. C.

Being a liberal Democrat from Winston-Salem myself, I have no clue who this Amy Wagner chick is. Rest assured, Marc, that she does not speak for all of us.

Unfortunately, maple-leaf licence plates are not readily available at Hanes Mall or Four Seasons Town Centre, otherwise I'd have one on the front of my car in a heartbeat.

Hey MarcusF, thanks for the support. It crossed my mind that if attitudes like Amy Wagner's are representative of North Carolina Democrats, I'd hate to think what all those Republican voters in your state would have to say! eek! Being from the HQ of Krispy Kreme, I'm surprised she didn't attack our most sacred 'Canadian' (owned by Wendy's of Ohio) institution, Tim Horton Donuts . Wagner is already taking some heat for her remarks, judging by letters that were published in today's paper.

By NC standards, she sounds fairly mainstream Republican (oxymoron?)... but then again, keep in mind that Jesse got elected 5 times, from a xenophobic campaign against a Greek-American congressman (1972), to a gay-baiting campaign against Jim Hunt, who had the GALL to accept gay support (1984), to outright racist campaigns against the black former mayor of Charlotte (1990 & 1996). [His 1978 opponent was pretty much a joke.]

The latest issue of the Advocate gives information on the conditions for emigration to gay friendly Canada and several European countries.

I was listening to a talk radio station in Toronto this morning. It's a station known to have right wing opinions, and a right wing listener base.

The topic was "gay refugees", and they not only talked about the typical gay refugees (yes, sexual orientation IS valid grounds for refugee status up here) that come from the middle east, Mexico and Central America, but they also talked about the potential of masses of gay refugees from the United States.

Now, let me be clear that some of the things that were said were typical of the right wing, but what surprised me was that most people, even callers that admitted to being hard right, said that being gay and in danger WAS a valid reason.

What was more troubling to me was that those same people, when asked, thought that within 2 years we would see gay refugees from the US. Even conservatives up here see the US and it's rights being either severly restricted, or taken away completely from her gay citizens.

One caller said that it's a double edged sword. As soon as someone starts to cash in their savings and investments in order to flee, it will make them visible to the people they want to flee from.

And almost everyone who was old enough to remember WW2 thought that if the current trend continues, there will be parallels.

Looks like even our conservatives are liberal.

Very interesting. I would say your conservatives are generally much more moderate that ours, more in line with Rudy Guliana or Ahhnold. But still interesting.

Last night on C SPAN there was an interesting installment of Inquiry, which I take is a Canadian show. They did a bit on gay immigration. Interesting.