I'm having a serious "fight or flight" reaction to the election, and this thread stems from the "flight" feeling I have in my gut. I don't mean to be "clever" or "cute" - I began exploring the potential of moving to Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver a little while back. Last night, friends were saying Costa Rica and Cuba are the places to go...

Comments? Suggestions? Feedback?

With that all said, I thought I'd start a thread on which people can:
1) share job listing websites in areas abroad, both near and far
2) share info. about real estate, apartments, etc. in Canada, or wherever folks might be looking to make a move
3) post the real scoop on the political climate for gays and/or expatriate Americans in certain provinces of Canada (or Costa Rica, etc., etc.)
4) generally discuss

For what it's worth, I work in Education, I will have a PhD in May or June, and I would love to work in higher education, either in an administrative position or as teaching faculty. Canada is a serious possibility, I think...

How about instead of moving away....everyone who is gay/liberal and lives in a heavily "red" state (Utah, Kansas, Alabama, etc) that the Republicans are going to win no matter what, get up and move to Ohio and Florida or other battleground states where we can tip the outcome in our favor!

I grew up in one of those states--thank you, no, don't need to return.

is life for a gay man in nyc that unbearable?

Remember your geography, NYC is an island! While life here isn't unbearable we are reminded all the time of what the prevailing views are in the rest of the country. As the character Bernice states in The Adventures Of Priscilla, Queen Of The Desert; "I don't know if that ugly wall of suburbia was put up to keep us from getting out or them from getting in." Watching the returns last night there was no doubt in my mind. Islands are a great place to live.

I think it's because life in NYC, or San Francisco, or Vermont, or NJ, is not so bad as a gay man, that I allowed myself to be punked by this election.

That is, I live in privilege. I live in states that are liberal, one of which is willing to grant me some measure of protection under the law.

Because I live in a liberal bubble, it was easy for me to believe that Kerry would win. Ha!

Now that Bush has more than likely won, we face serious consequences that will effect all of us, even those of us who live in liberal la-la lands.

Evolution vs. Creation
Pledge of Allegiance
Freedom of Speech
Affirmative Action
Title IX
Patriot Act
Roe v. Wade
...all of these recently revisited and/or pending court decisions certainly do effect NYCers.

i can see gay marriage being dealt a death blow by this election, but not much else of consequence. if roe v. wade were ever overturned due to a super conservative supreme court, i think the backlash would cripple the republicans/right.

My partner and I were talking about the "Canada Thing" too. We live in Titusville Florida and on our street there were a few Kerry/Edward signs but mostly Bush/Cheney signs. Even people that we talked with day in and day out had their Bush signs up and it was so disappointing to see these people that I thought were educated and free thinkers get caught up in the "Bush-machine" and get so brainwashed. It is very disappointing. We do need to lick our wounds and move on but the looming fear is what will happen to us a couple. We are in our early 40's and now I wonder just how much longer it will be before we are recognize as a couple in my own country. Maybe Canada is the answer. Right now I am too confused to think about it. I guess it's like a death in the family. You should mourn before making any drastic decisions. I just want to be sure I have enough family friendly people that can hide us in their attic or basement when the trains start coming for us. Can somebody cheer me up today? frown

I too am considering how I can leave and where I can go. Canada seems the most logical option at this point. I am not sure if we as glbt people can survive 4 more years in this political climate. What a sad day for America.

I found a website where you can determine your emigration eligibility for Canada. I didn't automatically qualify, since I don't speak a lick of Frenchie outside the bedroom.

Last night one of the Presidents campaign advisors said on NBC that RvW would almost certainly be a major target for this Administration over the next four years.

Lot of women still voted for him.

Rob

[ November 03, 2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: ITJock ]

I hope I recognise my country when i come back in three years.

I mourn for the land of Franklin, Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt, nd Eisenhower...

Rob

What's with this newfound realization that America hates fags? You guys really needed this election result to figure that out?

The only way gays get ahead is by being out HERE and living their lives and changing minds just by being who they are. Not by fleeing to Canada.

It's the out lesbians and gays in red states who will change things in the end. The ones who are out and unashamed, living their life as examples of how normal we are. Not the ones in blue states bitching about the benighted masses. And certainly not the ones scuttling to Canada.

The networking you should be doing is trying to win over sympathetic friends and relatives who are active in church groups and stuff like that. Enough with the oh-poor-gay-me whining. Get a grip.

The thing is I wanted so badly to start a family within the next few years (I would yesterday if I had my way) but why would I bother to do it here? Two consolations though,
1. Gay couples in Canada can and will be protected. Yaaa Canada!!! and...
2. The Chimp and his minions will have no-one to blame but themselves if the whole middle east thing blows up in thier face, and their economic policies bankrupt America allowing OBL to win as he hopes.
I will be quietly, non-chalantly standing over in this corner watching and whistling to myself. Someday it will happen for us gay folk.

Tomford, It seems hopeless. I know my parents and at least two, if not all three of my brothers voted for Bush even after I voiced my concerns. I just don't know what to make of it. They did it because they were prompted by the fearmongering. Funny, I live between NYC and DC and go to each all the time while my family all live so far from where any of the 9/11 disaster was, yet those of us in the midst of it voted for Kerry. It is also getting so very tiring when a 4 hour drive will put me in a land that accepts and values us. Maybe I just need a vacation from it all...clear my head and forgive.

[ November 03, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: gobar ]

Take a lot of warm clothing.

Eastern Mountain Sports is my suggestion.

I'm less pessimistic than most about the prospect for gay rights in this country. Not to take an anolgy too far, but slavery took a while to be defeated and, ironically, was a primary reason for the formation of the Republican Party, which few people gave much credence to until they won a presidential election not long afterwards.

Bush has been dragged, albeit kicking and screaming, around to admitting that he doesn't oppose gay unions. Social norms are not something he can control, and they are headed inevitably toward greater exceptance of gays. This election may be a last gasp for the christian right. Even pogroms couldn't eliminate human nature.

There is a lot of pressure to prevent Bush from starting another war in the Middle East, no matter how much the neo-cons press for it. We can't afford it, and money talks. Iraq has cost more than it was worth in oil. The moral arguement is obvious hypcrisy. There are better ways to support Israel.

But if you've already made up your mind to go, keep in touch. There aren't many lacrosse fans here and your posts always remind me to look up some pictures of cute lax boys now and then.
wink

Last night watching the returns I felt saddened and embarrassed for your country. I had followed this election so closely and maybe I was living in a dream world to think that this wouldn't happen. I'm 24 and most of my friends are around the same age. I can tell you I saw many tears last night and talking to friends online it was disbelief and surprising anger. I mean anger to the point where the stuff would not be good to repeat.

As someone stated about gay marriage being dealt a blow but not much else I would have to respectfully disagree. The supreme court will surely change in the next four years. On CNN last night, even the liberal commentators were saying that Bush would see this as a mandate for change and that he would have to reward his evangelical base. This was a man in the debates who said he didnt know if homosexuality was a choice. That should tell you the direction he will go in.

As for those who want to move to Canada, I understand your feelings and am willing to help anyone with any questions.

However, I do not thinking leaving the US is the answer. When the it looks bad its time to fight harder. I mean what happens in '08? Start fighting now for a democrat to be in the white house. As bad as bush is I can think of some worse candidates that would be elected in '08 that would face no opposition in the redneck south. With changes in population, it will be harder and harder if democrats do not win certain states. Florida is worth 27 electoral votes now, it could be worth 30 in '08 and those electoral votes are coming from democratic states.

This is just an idea, but why can't this board be used as a starting point as a political organizing tool? There are around 2000 members on this board and even if 10% were to sign up that would be a great start. Keep this man honest over the next four years, even if you don't like him he's here to stay. Unfortunately, a lot of attitudes are you guys are getting the government you deserve. It's time to prove that isn't the case!

gobar, Well, they're hopeless cases, so just kill them.

Seriously, this is what I mean by stop with the talk of fleeing--a poster wrote this in the Frustrated Coach thread:

Now, that wouldn't have happened if he hightailed it to Canada, would it? Stop with the hopeless talk. It's only hopeless if you give up. Don't.

Think of Roe v. Wade and the YEARS it took for pro-life activists to refashion the issue into a politically successful one. This is a setback and not a fatal blow. It should embolden you, not knock you out.

James of Canada. Thanks for your very insightful, and thoughful comments. I appreciate it. All I can say is thank God for Canada. When I need a breath of fresh political air, that where I go...I agree with you also that we (U.S.), need to start thinking and planning for'08 NOW!! Its my own personal view that America needs and is possibly ready for a strong female Presidential candidate that will take absolutely no right wing flack. Ideas...anyone??????

Picking someone for '08 should be simple: Find the person you think is really dumb and simple and don't like and pick them cause then they really have a shot.

On the other hand, if there's anyone you're passionate about, understand that they're hopeless.

You need someone from the South. The brilliant Will Saletan nails why Bush won and thinks Edwards has a shot here.

[ November 03, 2004, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: TomFord ]

TomFord, I certainly hope that "you need someone from the South" wasn't implying that we are all simple. HOPEFULLY, you were saying that a Southerner has a better chance of winning the Southern votes necessary to become president. Without the Southern vote, it is virtually impossible to become president.

Since I have enjoyed your posts in the past, I'm choosing to believe the latter.

[ November 03, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]

For real! Bush can do nothing but f**k things up in the next four years and then we will need to put someone up with, sorry to say, a little more charisma than Kerry. I for one actually liked and respected the guy but can see where others didn't. The only real problem will be the disasterous supreme court by then and however many more lost lives in Iraq and God forbid anywhere else they set their eyes on. Its only four more years, huh and we can keep our noses clean of the Iraq mess- Don't blame us, he's your man...

I like Edwards. I don't think he's "simple", in either sense of the word, though I thought at first he wasn't very serious. But he mostly stuck to his positive campaign rhetoric yet stood toe to toe with Rcihard Cheney, killing him with kindness on the 'lesbian daughter' issue. After weathering the obvious criticism about being part of the litigation problem, I think he'd be an excellent candidate in 2008 and is well-vetted for the spot.

I know its a long shot but I think Barak Obama is truly inspirational. Dailykos has a quote of his (Barak's) up now it may be his speech at the DNC or it may be from today I don't know but its very impressive. Maybe I'll vaca in Chicago.

While I would love to see most of you move up here to Canada (Copman can come only if he brings his cuffs), unfortunately, I have to agree with others that it is not the smart thing to do.

Now is the time to continue the battle. If the right wing of the GOP tried to take away basic constitutional liberies, I think you'd see even a lot of Republicans object.

But the bastards have to be watched. And very closely.

But if you do want to immigrate to Canada, our Cabinet Minister in charge of Customs and Immigration has reccomended that the number of immigrants allowed per year be increased to 600,000, in order to meet demand for jobs.

To the person who wants to get into the teaching profession up here, that is one profession that would get you a visa immediately, providing you have a valid teachers certificate.

Hopefully it won't come to that, but if it does, Canada does not discriminate.

ANd you only need French if you are going to work in Quebec, or for the Federal Gov't. But even then they can't deny you a job if you are willing to learn french.

Aubie, no, I didn't mean to connect simple and the South. I meant the latter (Southern candidate better chance...). I try steer clear of dissing other places as dumb cause it's, well, dumb.

btw I haven't forgotten about the NY restaurants thread.

gobar, relax on the doomsday talk. America's not that fragile. Yeah, Obama's one bit of really good news from last night.

sportinlife: Edwards was good, but my gut feeling is that he's sharp but slightly mean-spirited, and it comes through the more you see of him. The thing about Bush is--he's loved now more than ever. He brings out this sort of protective quality in his admirers--the more he's knocked, the more they want to protect him. The Dems need a truly charismatic leader--someone who makes Dem women tongues swell up when they think of him. I was really shocked Kerry got as far as he did considering. And it's not because of him, but because of hatred for the Administration.

Proof that committed Christians who have experimented with cocaine in the past, aren't all like George W. Bush.

From Harper's Online

"Electing to Leave: So the wrong candidate has won, and you want to leave the country."

P.S. With props to Wonkette for the link...

Seeking Canadian who wants marriage of convience (can never spell that word)or if we click, hot monkey love

PM me

:-)

Saw an interesting idea on another website - boycott states (including gay events) that voted red. Attend Gay Disney at Disneyland in CA rather than Disneyworld in FL, etc.

Ok guys, snap out of it. It's a friggin' election. You're alive and it's football season...fugedabodit already.

You're not going anywhere. You're staying here and living your life and ENJOYING it. Jeesh.

You must be a Republican.

I'm waiting for a mid 20's, big burly ex-marine with the brains of a fence post, and a butt you can bounce a quarter off of, who needs status.

That way. I get to find out if they're ALL bottoms.

right, right
:: snap out of it::

four years of God over science are around the corner, but we should "snap out it"

if football could fix all the things I'm concerned about, I sure would suck it up, or develop an addiction that would help me cope, but, alas, football can't assure me that Souter, Ginsburg, et al. will stay on the court

nor will dreamy Joey Harrington soothe my fears that quality work on AIDS, domestic violence, community programs on substance abuse and teen homelessness will be supplanted by faith based initiatives and "born again" sex education (which = abstinence and abstinence only; no safer sex)

in other words, I'm not being "pissy" just for the sake of it

thanks for the post and message, James2k, and thanks for PennState4Ever for that link!

[ November 03, 2004, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: The B Man ]

LK, I'm not a republican. I'm married to one...that's worse.

I think there was a movie about that...wasn't it called "Sleeping With the Enemy?"

JC, after the fights we had leading up the election and now the result, there's not going to be much "sleeping with the enemy" for the foreseeable future.

You might read George Will's pre-election column at http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6369713/site/newsweek/ I almost always disagree with Will, but there's some consolation here.

I'm not going to move, even though it's tempting and I own a home in Canada. This is my coutry, and I am not going to let the foolish and powerful drive me out.

What can we do? Well, there are several things we NEED to do:

1) Make a real effort to understand Middle America - why it distrusts liberals, people from Massechusets, etc. You can't convince them if you don't know what they think.

2) Start to inspire and lead, not just react. The GOP is very smart, and it managed to take preemptive action and define almost all issues in its own terms.

3) COME OUT. Other than my brother's hate-filled and fearful religious-right family, virtually everyone I know and who knows me, is pro-Gay, even some who are moderately pro-Bush.

4) Educate people. Not only about our issues, but about some of the things that are really going on.

And, I suspect, watch the GOP self-destruct.

Nat

They were saying that there are 600,000 Americans in Canada eligible to vote in the U.S. election, so you would have plenty of company.

Here's the Skilled Worker Self-Assessment from an official gov't website.

I don't think a Southern candidate (unless you count Florida) is the way to go. Sure, Clinton was able to grab a handful of electoral votes there, but that was 8 years ago. I don't think the reason Kerry lost by 20+ points in most Southern states was because he was from Massachusetts. Gore was from Tennessee and he wasn't able to get any of those states, either. Unless they pick a Republican wannabe like Zell Miller (which is kind of pointless), I think the South's a lost cause. I think they'd be better off with somebody from the midwest or maybe Colorado or New Mexico.

My score was 52 out of 100. You need a 67 to pass. I'm screwed.

Tell that to Matthew Shepard.

[ November 03, 2004, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

You'll just have to marry a Canadian, then, Joe.

Canmark, I scored a 71, I'm coming tomorrow. Can I stay with you for a while?

I scored a 73. I wonder if there are any openings for a researcher in stem cells and a nurse at any Universities or hospitals up there? It looks like the best bet is to get a work permit and work there for a year or so then apply. It is a serious possibility. I wonder if my partner's mother would want to move to Vancouver(sp?), too.

I tried to take the assessment, but the last page asked for info. about your partner, and, well damn, I dont have one, so the test wouldn't finish... D'oh! I had a 72 until that point, though.

Almost every hospital up here is crying for experianced nurses. Most of the big ones also have research units as well. Pay is not that good for nurses, only 45 - 60k per year, but the overtime builds it up

The closest city to where I live just re-built their hospital, and tripled the size. They are now starting construction on a cancer care hospital on the same grounds. They estimate they need, at that hospital alone, over 200 nurses.

I would talk to the Ontario Medial Association, the Ontario Nurses federation (or assocation) or look at the job postings on line at Globeandmail.com or torontostar.com. Both have medical job sections.

Nurses with research backgrounds can demand very high salaries, and can generally choose where they want to live.

An amusing article about how the blue states can survive...by being annexed by Canada!

O Canada, we plead to cede to thee

Interesting you bring this up JIP. Out here in the great Pacific Northwest I have read articles in my paper as well as guide books about all the different ways that tie the Pacific Northwest States and Western Canada, which includes British Columbia, and Alberta. We have many things and views in common. Both areas of both countries tend to feel "left out" by the party base which is located way back east to both respective countries. In addition, the people out here feel they have a common bond with each others western counterparts in many ways. And our economies are very similiar as well.

[ November 04, 2004, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: puckman1 ]

I scored a 72! Canmark, Seph, Marc, Ed and all the other Outsports north of the border - here comes another Philadelphian!

79 here... we'll be along shortly.