This section is reserved for discussions related to the umpire and his duties and responsibilities, section 9.00 of Official Baseball Rules. Included are topics like pregame conferences, ground rules being established, crew chief duties, ejections, forfeits, etc.
This folder is not designed for general questions about umpiring. Check the Miscellaneous Folder for that.
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Full Version: THE UMPIRE (9.00)
This sort of relates to the question I asked in another of these threads about reversing a call. In Friday night's Phillies-Marlins game Larry Bowa was ejected by the home plate umpire Tim Tschida, who heard something from the Phillies dugout he felt warranted ejection. Bowa then came out to argue because he denied saying anything and that it was pitching coach Joe Kerrigan who made the remarks that Tschida heard. Seeing as how no one in the stands would be able to tell who was ejected, so it's not like it would be obvious to anyone that a call was being reversed, it seems like it would have been easy enough for him to say, "Okay, Bowa stays. Kerrigan, you're ejected." Or is this something that can't be reversed?
Joe,
Generally speaking, ejections are irreversible, unless it involves a rule that mandates an ejection and the rule itself was misapplied.
When the dugout is chirping like that and an ejection is imminent, if the offender is not specifically known, the manager is often the one ejected.
Generally speaking, ejections are irreversible, unless it involves a rule that mandates an ejection and the rule itself was misapplied.
When the dugout is chirping like that and an ejection is imminent, if the offender is not specifically known, the manager is often the one ejected.
Here's a question I'm sure you've rarely heard. Can an umpire be ejected from a game for any reason?
An umpire cannot leave the game unless he becomes ill or is injured, something that has happened several times this year, BTW.
I heard the other night that Bobby Cox was ejected for the 112th time in his career. If I'm not mistaken, that's considerably more than even Earl Weaver had.
Is Cox that much of a hot-head? When he argues he doesn't seem to drag it on and on like Earl did--how on earth does he manage to get tossed so many times?
Josh
Is Cox that much of a hot-head? When he argues he doesn't seem to drag it on and on like Earl did--how on earth does he manage to get tossed so many times?
Josh
Bobby is just a pain in the ass, to be honest with you. He complains about the littlest things, balls and strikes especially.
Ump, I don't know if this is the correct folder to ask this, but I did not see a Miscellaneous folder in which to post.
Anyway, In tonight's game at Citizens Bank Park, Placido Polanco hit a ball into left field that Jeff Conine was suppose to field. The ball rolled to the wall and went under the padding of it. The ball was clearly visible and accessible. Jeff Conine did not attempt to retrieve the ball and threw his hands up in the air. Polanco circled the bases. The homeplate umpire sent Polanco back to second. Larry Bowa came out to argue.
The announcers on TV said that the ground rules were disccused with the umpires before the game and a ball going under the padding should not constitute a ground rule double because it was not part of the ground rules. As it turns out Conine was able to get the ball fom under the wall once he made an attempt.
On another play in the same game Juan Pierre retrieved a ball under the padding of the wall and it was not deemed a ground rule double.
What is your take on this?
Anyway, In tonight's game at Citizens Bank Park, Placido Polanco hit a ball into left field that Jeff Conine was suppose to field. The ball rolled to the wall and went under the padding of it. The ball was clearly visible and accessible. Jeff Conine did not attempt to retrieve the ball and threw his hands up in the air. Polanco circled the bases. The homeplate umpire sent Polanco back to second. Larry Bowa came out to argue.
The announcers on TV said that the ground rules were disccused with the umpires before the game and a ball going under the padding should not constitute a ground rule double because it was not part of the ground rules. As it turns out Conine was able to get the ball fom under the wall once he made an attempt.
On another play in the same game Juan Pierre retrieved a ball under the padding of the wall and it was not deemed a ground rule double.
What is your take on this?
philly, I've moved my reply to the proper folder, the Miscellaneous folder. Go HERE to read it.
QUOTE
The Umpire:
ejections
Ump, I don't know if you guys get to review tapes of incidents that occur, but hopefully you got to see this one after your game today.ejections
I was watching the game between the Mariners and Yankees today, and Bob Melvin, Seattle's manager, was ejected in the third. Pitcher Jamie Moyer and, more specifically, catcher, Dan Wilson of the M's seemed to be having this ongoing bickering with home plate umpire, Chris Guccione, about strike calls. The one that really seemed to set things off was when the Yankees' batter, Bernie Willams got a walk (even I as a Yankee fan kind of questioned whether the ball wasn't actually a strike). However, that call really bring everything to a head between Guccione, Moyer, and Wilson. Guccione tore his mask off and walked to pitcher's mound and essentially chastised Moyer and Wilson (who had rushed to the mound). After, Melvin intervened and bitched even more, and was rightfully ejected, Guccione then went after Wilson again (who appeared to zip his lip at this point). My guess is that Wilson (and Moyer, for that matter) had been probably muttering shit to Guccione for the first three innings, it was hot, and the umpire basically had enough. However, the YES guys even suggested that Guccione had no right getting in Wilson's face. It seems to me that neither we (the fans) nor the commentators really have an idea if the catcher is "getting under the umpire's skin". First of all, if you have viewed what occurred at Yankee Stadium today, do you think Guccione lost control a little bit? Secondly, is my supposition rather true about catchers (on any team) regularly saying stuff to the umpire throughout the game if they don't like the calls that their pitcher is getting? What are your views? Is there any right or wrong here? Thanks.
Cattledog,
Well, I'd like to think that none of us ever "lose control," as you had stated. We are, of course, human, and can become irritated or angry. We attempt to keep this in check for obvious reasons, because anger and other strong, negative emotions tend to cloud our judgment and dampen our instincts.
When we work the plate, we always try to maintain a good relationship with each catcher. Sometimes, though, the catcher just ends up bitching too much, and we will not put up with it. There are some catchers who, to be honest with you, are just bastards and not very enjoyable to work behind. These are the ones who never have a nice thing to say or who just do nothing but whine all game long. Those make for very long games, believe me.
If a catcher starts to complain, we will attempt to stop that sooner than later, for I do not relish the thought of ejecting the catcher, especially early in the contest.
Well, I'd like to think that none of us ever "lose control," as you had stated. We are, of course, human, and can become irritated or angry. We attempt to keep this in check for obvious reasons, because anger and other strong, negative emotions tend to cloud our judgment and dampen our instincts.
When we work the plate, we always try to maintain a good relationship with each catcher. Sometimes, though, the catcher just ends up bitching too much, and we will not put up with it. There are some catchers who, to be honest with you, are just bastards and not very enjoyable to work behind. These are the ones who never have a nice thing to say or who just do nothing but whine all game long. Those make for very long games, believe me.
If a catcher starts to complain, we will attempt to stop that sooner than later, for I do not relish the thought of ejecting the catcher, especially early in the contest.
QUOTE
The Umpire:
There are some catchers who, to be honest with you, are just bastards and not very enjoyable to work behind.
I know you cannot say. But, I am going to assume (for my own piece of mind) that Jorge Posada and John Flaherty are NOT like that. wink There are some catchers who, to be honest with you, are just bastards and not very enjoyable to work behind.
I would hate to have my image of them blown.
CD, let me just say that there are some catchers whom members of this board find quite attractive who are quite the a--hole.
Ump,
I'm pleased to report that I received a VCSL playoff assignment this week.
The playoffs use a 3man crew, and I've only worked 3 men crews a handful of times in the past (twice as the plate guy and once as the first base umpire).
This upcoming assignment I will be the third base umpire. What are the basic mechanics that I should concern myself with basically with no one on, and with multiple runners on. (I think I'm OK with just 1 runner on base).
Thanks
Josh
I'm pleased to report that I received a VCSL playoff assignment this week.
The playoffs use a 3man crew, and I've only worked 3 men crews a handful of times in the past (twice as the plate guy and once as the first base umpire).
This upcoming assignment I will be the third base umpire. What are the basic mechanics that I should concern myself with basically with no one on, and with multiple runners on. (I think I'm OK with just 1 runner on base).
Thanks
Josh
Congratulations, Josh, on your accomplishment! I wish you all the best.
Three-man crews aren't easy, especially if you're used to two-man crews. Personally, I believe that if amateur organizations wish to assign 3-man crews, they ought to spend a bit more to go with a 4-man crew, and not because it's more "major league-like" or something like that; rather, because 4-man mechanics, in my opinion, are a little easier to work.
While I don't have the time or space to go over everything in a 3-man crew, here are some basic tips that should help. Keep these in mind and you should do well:
These are just some very basic items. I you want a good source for mechanics of 2, 3, 4, and 6 umpires, check out this publication:
http://www.referee.com/cca/baseball/
It is probably the most popular and widely used publication dealing with mechanics. I know the NCAA asks umpires nationwide to follow this publication, at least from what Dave Yeast says.
Hope this info helps. Good luck.
Three-man crews aren't easy, especially if you're used to two-man crews. Personally, I believe that if amateur organizations wish to assign 3-man crews, they ought to spend a bit more to go with a 4-man crew, and not because it's more "major league-like" or something like that; rather, because 4-man mechanics, in my opinion, are a little easier to work.
While I don't have the time or space to go over everything in a 3-man crew, here are some basic tips that should help. Keep these in mind and you should do well:
- Any time there is a runner on first, the first base umpire (U1) will be at first (call it position 1)
- There will NEVER be two umpires in the infield at the same time (I'm talking about starting positions, of course)--this is a no brainer
- The third base umpire (U3) does more running and moving than U1 or the plate umpire (PU)
- There often is a lot of switching between U1 and U3. For example: When a runner on first steals second and now we have only R2 on base, U1 moves to the infield with U3 going back to third. Next guy walks, and U1 goes back to first with U3 back to the infield.
- From their starting positions, U1 takes all fly balls from center field to the right field line, U3 from F8's right to the left field line.
- When one umpire goes out, it becomes a 2-man crew. The umpire who went out doesn't come back until continuous action has ended.
- The plate umpire will still rotate to third on plays involving R1 going to third (just like a 2-man crew).
- It is OPTIONAL if the crew will use the system where the umpire in the infield leaves the field and goes out to cover a fly ball. Under the old system, this never happened. Under new guidelines that the NCAA has adopted, whoever is in the field, if it's his fly ball jurisdiction, he will leave the field and go out. Check w/ your crewmates on this!
These are just some very basic items. I you want a good source for mechanics of 2, 3, 4, and 6 umpires, check out this publication:
http://www.referee.com/cca/baseball/
It is probably the most popular and widely used publication dealing with mechanics. I know the NCAA asks umpires nationwide to follow this publication, at least from what Dave Yeast says.
Hope this info helps. Good luck.
Ump,
Thanks so much for the information. I think if my crewmates will listen, we should be mechanically sound Wednesday night!
I'll keep you posted!
Josh
Thanks so much for the information. I think if my crewmates will listen, we should be mechanically sound Wednesday night!
I'll keep you posted!
Josh
Just don't blame me if one of you guys screws up. wink
It is OPTIONAL if the crew will use the system where the umpire in the infield leaves the field and goes out to cover a fly ball. Under the old system, this never happened. Under new guidelines that the NCAA has adopted, whoever is in the field, if it's his fly ball jurisdiction, he will leave the field and go out. Check w/ your crewmates on this!
Well tonight was the big playoff assignment, and it's amazing how quickly the intensity disappears when it is 8-0 after 1 and the final score is 14-1.
Anyway, my assignor observed and while he complimented us on our positioning, I got told NEVER go out on a fly ball when I'm in the middle of the infield.
My assignor has been to umpire instruction school in FL and has also umpired NCAA ball. How new is this mechanic of always going out if the play is within your jurisdiction?
No one ever got caught out of position, but it certainly looked and felt wierd in those situations.
Other than that, everything was great and I definitely appreciate the help.
Thanks
Josh
Well tonight was the big playoff assignment, and it's amazing how quickly the intensity disappears when it is 8-0 after 1 and the final score is 14-1.
Anyway, my assignor observed and while he complimented us on our positioning, I got told NEVER go out on a fly ball when I'm in the middle of the infield.
My assignor has been to umpire instruction school in FL and has also umpired NCAA ball. How new is this mechanic of always going out if the play is within your jurisdiction?
No one ever got caught out of position, but it certainly looked and felt wierd in those situations.
Other than that, everything was great and I definitely appreciate the help.
Thanks
Josh
Josh,
As I said, it's somewhat of an option for a guy from the infield to leave the field. I don't know what your observer said, but the official NCAA mechanic that was changed this year does indeed call for a base umpire to leave the field on fly balls.
I was involved in some clinics in the offseason, and I specifically remember this being addressed. In fact, an NCAA mechanics video was shown at one clinic in which I was involved, and this video showed the third base umpire leaving the C position to go out on a fly ball to deep left center.
Obviously, at the major league level, we don't worry about this during the regular season unless one of our crew members gets injured or becomes ill. If you want my personal opinion, I don't like this new mechanic. I am not a proponent of an umpire within the infield ever leaving the confines of the infield in such situations.
As I said, it's somewhat of an option for a guy from the infield to leave the field. I don't know what your observer said, but the official NCAA mechanic that was changed this year does indeed call for a base umpire to leave the field on fly balls.
I was involved in some clinics in the offseason, and I specifically remember this being addressed. In fact, an NCAA mechanics video was shown at one clinic in which I was involved, and this video showed the third base umpire leaving the C position to go out on a fly ball to deep left center.
Obviously, at the major league level, we don't worry about this during the regular season unless one of our crew members gets injured or becomes ill. If you want my personal opinion, I don't like this new mechanic. I am not a proponent of an umpire within the infield ever leaving the confines of the infield in such situations.
Forgive me for typing this now, but I'm just so f**king pissed off.
I know I've complained about this in the past, but I still don't understand why so many MLB umpires stand to the f**king first base side of the plate when covering a play at home.
Today, Angel Hernandez totally f**king blew the call because he was clearly out of position. LoDuca tagged McCann right on the ass, but Hernandez couldn't f**king see it because he was not in the right position to make the call. He never even turned his f**king head to look at LoDuca's glove. If he would have looked at the f**king play, he would have seen a tag attempt, and then he could have asked Randy Marsh down at 3rd for help after the argument. But he never moved and never turned his head. I don't f**king get that at all.
The likelyhood that standing to the first base side of the plate in fair territory is going to show you anything is slim to none. The angles just aren't there it seems.
Watch a replay if you can of the top of the second inning of Braves/Mets and please tell me what angle Hernandez hoped to have from that vantage point, and why wouldn't it be listed in the mechanics book as to where to stand and why.
Again, sorry for sounding so bitchy, but I guess I'm just really pissed.
Thanks
Josh
I know I've complained about this in the past, but I still don't understand why so many MLB umpires stand to the f**king first base side of the plate when covering a play at home.
Today, Angel Hernandez totally f**king blew the call because he was clearly out of position. LoDuca tagged McCann right on the ass, but Hernandez couldn't f**king see it because he was not in the right position to make the call. He never even turned his f**king head to look at LoDuca's glove. If he would have looked at the f**king play, he would have seen a tag attempt, and then he could have asked Randy Marsh down at 3rd for help after the argument. But he never moved and never turned his head. I don't f**king get that at all.
The likelyhood that standing to the first base side of the plate in fair territory is going to show you anything is slim to none. The angles just aren't there it seems.
Watch a replay if you can of the top of the second inning of Braves/Mets and please tell me what angle Hernandez hoped to have from that vantage point, and why wouldn't it be listed in the mechanics book as to where to stand and why.
Again, sorry for sounding so bitchy, but I guess I'm just really pissed.
Thanks
Josh
That's a lot of anger considering the Mets lost by 10 runs... 
Also, the only angle I saw was the same as Angel's, so I don't know how sure you can be about the call...
Besides, Angel is such a hunk, you can't really stay mad at him... wink
Also, the only angle I saw was the same as Angel's, so I don't know how sure you can be about the call...
Besides, Angel is such a hunk, you can't really stay mad at him... wink
Indeed. I saw the play while watching Baseball Tonight last night, and it sure didn't look like the tag was applied. Looked fairly obvious that he came close, but the ball didn't make contact with the runner.
Sounds like a bitchy Mets fan, that's all.
Sounds like a bitchy Mets fan, that's all.
quoted from an article:
But his postmortems focused on the balk, Hernandez's strike zone and the tag.
"I could have come out of that inning, nothing-nothing," he said. "But you know what happened."
And what happened was this, according to Lima. As he walked to the mound to start the second, he engaged Hernandez in conversation about the strike zone. "He said to me, 'You're not going to get those three or four extra inches. You're not John Smoltz.'"
Lima, as outspoken as any player, said, "He treated me like a rookie. He knows me. He knows I've been here. He treated me like I was new."
What effect the strike zone had on Lima, he didn't specify. But he did endure an ugly inning. McCann led off with a single. Second-base umpire Sam Holbrook called Lima for a balk, with Brian Jordan batting, the third balk against Lima in 1,550 1/3 big-league innings. Jordan hit the balk pitch to shortstop, and the Mets thought they turned a double play. Instead, McCann was on second and, after Jordan struck out, advanced to third on Ryan Langerhans soft single to right.
Smoltz, who later successfully squeezed in a run in the fifth, missed a squeeze sign but then hit a tapper in front of the plate. Lo Duca fielded it with his bare hand and lunged at McCann. Replays appeared to indicate Lo Duca had tagged the runner. And McCann later acknowledged to a Mets batter that he had been tagged. But Hernandez called him safe and immediately ejected Lo Duca once the Mets catcher slammed the ball to the turf while protesting.
"I spiked it like Ickey Woods," Lo Duca said, before acknowledging, "I lost control of my emotions, and I regret that. But I tagged the guy, and he blew the call. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It was a big part of the game. The balk call amazed me, too."
----------------------------------------------
Even f**king Brian McCann said he was tagged. Hernandez blew the call big time because he was out of position and never adjusted to follow the play. I also was sure to write my post before the game got out of hand, so I wasn't influenced by the final score.
Furthmore, the quote that Hernandez made telling LoDuca and Lima "that he isn't John Smoltz" is bullshit. How can two pitchers have 2 f**king strike zones by the umpire's own admission??????????????
An umpire isn't supposed to give two shits who is batting, who is winning, and who is pitching.
f**k Angel Hernandez and his lack of integrity. It's apparant that not only is he a shitty umpire but he has given baseball a black eye with his complete lack of integrity.
He should be suspended for making those comments during the game. That's just unbelievably unprofessional.
Josh
But his postmortems focused on the balk, Hernandez's strike zone and the tag.
"I could have come out of that inning, nothing-nothing," he said. "But you know what happened."
And what happened was this, according to Lima. As he walked to the mound to start the second, he engaged Hernandez in conversation about the strike zone. "He said to me, 'You're not going to get those three or four extra inches. You're not John Smoltz.'"
Lima, as outspoken as any player, said, "He treated me like a rookie. He knows me. He knows I've been here. He treated me like I was new."
What effect the strike zone had on Lima, he didn't specify. But he did endure an ugly inning. McCann led off with a single. Second-base umpire Sam Holbrook called Lima for a balk, with Brian Jordan batting, the third balk against Lima in 1,550 1/3 big-league innings. Jordan hit the balk pitch to shortstop, and the Mets thought they turned a double play. Instead, McCann was on second and, after Jordan struck out, advanced to third on Ryan Langerhans soft single to right.
Smoltz, who later successfully squeezed in a run in the fifth, missed a squeeze sign but then hit a tapper in front of the plate. Lo Duca fielded it with his bare hand and lunged at McCann. Replays appeared to indicate Lo Duca had tagged the runner. And McCann later acknowledged to a Mets batter that he had been tagged. But Hernandez called him safe and immediately ejected Lo Duca once the Mets catcher slammed the ball to the turf while protesting.
"I spiked it like Ickey Woods," Lo Duca said, before acknowledging, "I lost control of my emotions, and I regret that. But I tagged the guy, and he blew the call. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. It was a big part of the game. The balk call amazed me, too."
----------------------------------------------
Even f**king Brian McCann said he was tagged. Hernandez blew the call big time because he was out of position and never adjusted to follow the play. I also was sure to write my post before the game got out of hand, so I wasn't influenced by the final score.
Furthmore, the quote that Hernandez made telling LoDuca and Lima "that he isn't John Smoltz" is bullshit. How can two pitchers have 2 f**king strike zones by the umpire's own admission??????????????
An umpire isn't supposed to give two shits who is batting, who is winning, and who is pitching.
f**k Angel Hernandez and his lack of integrity. It's apparant that not only is he a shitty umpire but he has given baseball a black eye with his complete lack of integrity.
He should be suspended for making those comments during the game. That's just unbelievably unprofessional.
Josh
QUOTE
js1metsfan:
f**k Angel Hernandez and his lack of integrity.
Josh
Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.f**k Angel Hernandez and his lack of integrity.
Josh
Yeah, that's real professional there. Perhaps you ought to look in the mirror before spewing such juvenile crap.
QUOTE
NCAA Umpire:
Yeah, that's real professional there. Perhaps you ought to look in the mirror before spewing such juvenile crap.
I never have said anything to the effect that Angel Hernandez said in a the game. NEVER. Telling one pitcher that because he isn't on the same level as the opponent so he is going to get a different strike zone? That's absurd.QUOTE
js1metsfan:
f**k Angel Hernandez and his lack of integrity.
Josh
Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.f**k Angel Hernandez and his lack of integrity.
Josh
Yeah, that's real professional there. Perhaps you ought to look in the mirror before spewing such juvenile crap.
While I've had arguments and ejections over my calls, I'm not out of position when I make them ,and I work in a two-man crew not a 4 man, so I have more plays to cover. Furthmore, I have not had the type of training that Hernandez was supposed to have received and remembered about umpiring.
Calling a MLB umpire out for his lack of integrity is certainly not juvenile crap. If I ever said the shit that he said in one of my games, I'd expect my assignors to drop me from the schedule.
Josh
He blew one call, and the Mets still lost by 10 runs. Me thinks their poor play and poor pitching probably had a lot more to do with it than one missed call....Lighten up. You're still 8 games ahead of Atlanta....
And just which position should he have been in? If one wishes to see if a catcher tags a runner when the tag is going to be on the FAIR side or infield side of the play, it's best to take a position where you can see straight through and be able to see the catcher, the tag attempt, and the runner all at the same time. In such cases, the third base line extended, or just a bit to the infield side of it, offers an ideal vantage point.
Surely you're not mistaken enough to think Angel should have taken the traditional first base line extended, where he would have been completely screened by the runner's right body side.
Surely you're not mistaken enough to think Angel should have taken the traditional first base line extended, where he would have been completely screened by the runner's right body side.
QUOTE
NCAA Umpire:
And just which position should he have been in? If one wishes to see if a catcher tags a runner when the tag is going to be on the FAIR side or infield side of the play, it's best to take a position where you can see straight through and be able to see the catcher, the tag attempt, and the runner all at the same time. In such cases, the third base line extended, or just a bit to the infield side of it, offers an ideal vantage point.
Surely you're not mistaken enough to think Angel should have taken the traditional first base line extended, where he would have been completely screened by the runner's right body side.
You are right, except that is not where Angel was standing. Also, he never moved his head to follow the ball and LoDuca's glove.And just which position should he have been in? If one wishes to see if a catcher tags a runner when the tag is going to be on the FAIR side or infield side of the play, it's best to take a position where you can see straight through and be able to see the catcher, the tag attempt, and the runner all at the same time. In such cases, the third base line extended, or just a bit to the infield side of it, offers an ideal vantage point.
Surely you're not mistaken enough to think Angel should have taken the traditional first base line extended, where he would have been completely screened by the runner's right body side.
My original point is the first base line is the worst play to be for any developing play at the plate and I don't know why so many umpires stand there.
Josh
QUOTE
MiamiSpartan:
He blew one call, and the Mets still lost by 10 runs. Me thinks their poor play and poor pitching probably had a lot more to do with it than one missed call....Lighten up. You're still 8 games ahead of Atlanta....
Yes the poor play and poor pitching had a lot to do with the loss. However, when you know that your pitchers will be lucky to get the corner, and your opposition is going to be getting 4-5 inches off the plate because the umpire flat out tells you that, then what was the point of even playing the game to begin with? That's my other point--about Hernandez's complete lack of integrity to say such a thing.He blew one call, and the Mets still lost by 10 runs. Me thinks their poor play and poor pitching probably had a lot more to do with it than one missed call....Lighten up. You're still 8 games ahead of Atlanta....
Josh
"shakes head" 
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