I am creating this particular folder for my occasional play situations. I'll pop in with a play or two and see who can chime in with their guesses as to what the correct ruling is.

I was thinking of doing this in the individual, specific folders located here, but the biggest problem I foresaw was that such questions would get buried in those folders and few responses would result. By creating this specific folder, if someone sees it highlighted separately on the main page, it's more apt to produce some responses. After all, it's for the benefit of the readers here.

Of course, I encourage everyone to continue to post their questions or situations on specific rules or situations per the other folders' subject headers.

I ask that all of you confine your posts here to only your responses to my situations. Please do not start new topics or create new, unrelated posts. Use the other folders for that.

Thanks.

[ March 22, 2004, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: The Umpire ]

Let's begin...

Runners on second and third with a 1-1 count when the pitcher balks while delivering the pitch. The pitch hits the dirt and sails away from the catcher to the backstop, with R3 scoring and R2 advancing to third before the catcher gets the ball back and gets to the plate.

What's the ruling?

So Ump: I looked it up in Jaksa/Roder, so I think I know the answer. Is that cheating?

It was a humbling experience. Some of those rules make my head hurt ( :confused: ).

My guess is that the runners that were on second and third would have to return to where they were since the pitcher balked before the ball got away from the catcher. I thought when the pitcher balked, that would be a "dead ball". The batter at the plate would advance to first base.

I'm going to agree with Cattledog. Due to the balk there is "no pitch" and the runners advance only 1 base.

RULING: Because a balk is a delayed dead ball, the play is allowed to continue. Here, because the ball eluded the catcher and all baserunners advanced a base, the balk is disregarded, but the pitch will be nullified!

R3 scores, R2 is at third, and the count remains 1-1.

How's THAT for a weird one, eh?

When a balk is called, it is a delayed dead ball. This means the play or pitch is allowed to continue. If the batter-runner and all baserunners advance a base on their own (too bad if they miss their advance base), the balk is disregarded and the play stands. If not, the ball becomes dead and the balk is enforced.

Here's another one along these lines:

Runners on first and second w/ a 3-1 count on the batter. The pitcher balks as he delivers the pitch, which is not swung at because it's called a ball. RULING: It is ball four, giving the batter first base and forcing up R1 and R2. Therefore, the balk is disregarded. What would happen if it would have been runners on first and third instead here? In that case, because the batter's walk did not force up R3 at third, the balk would have been enforced instead, the pitch nullified, and the batter returned to bat with a 3-1 count.

Try this one...

Runners on first and third with no outs when the batter hits a high pop fly right over the second baseman's head. The second baseman (F4) camps underneath the ball, but at the last second purposely jumps out of the way and lets the ball fall untouched to the ground, where he quickly picks it up, fires to second where the shortstop (F6) is covering for the force out. F6 fires it to first for the second out.

What's the ruling?

I'm not sure, but if I've learned something about baseball since Ump started his columns, my hunch is that the 'infield fly' rule would apply here. There are less than two outs and F4 should have been able to catch the ball, but purposely dropped it. Thus only the batter would be out, not R1 and R3.

Just to view this differently than I previously would have, I would have to say that this could be ruled an error on the second baseman. Only the runner to first base would be out. This one is difficult.

I love this thread. My mind has the habit of pondering hypothetical circumstances that are never well addressed and tend to be dismissed as 'that would never happen.' So I find this thread the type of trivia into which I can really sink my teeth.

My fundamental problem to understanding the infield fly rule is how is it possible that a ball can be hit sufficiently high into the air to constitute a relatively easy catch, yet the batter does not reach first before the double play. Is the batter just lazy, or are there situations where it is impossible for the batter to reach first base before the double play? I guess I need to watch more baseball.

The situation is screaming for the infield fly rule-- the fielder camps under the ball then intentionally steps away. However, there should be no advantage to the fielder for dropping the ball because the runner should get to first before a DP. If the fielders get a DP because the batter is a lazy SOB, then I say let the DP stand.

It just doesn't make sense to me to have an infield fly in this situation. To me, it makes more sense to enforce an infield fly when you can actually get two outs instead of one. I'm just hoping the infield fly rule doesn't exist to protect lazy batters.

I know I'm probably going against the grain of more knowledgeable baseball people. However, since the situation seems to be screaming for an infield fly rule application. I'm going to say NO infield fly, two outs are recorded, and the batter should get his ass chewed out by his manager.

[ May 27, 2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: orsino4 ]

There's no infield fly rule until the umpire calls an infield fly. Since the Ump (intentionally, I think) did not mention the umpire calling an infield fly, I think the play stands as is: double play.

If the infield fly rule had been called: the batter is out and the runners advance at their own risk. But, can the runners run as soon as the "infield fly" is called? Or do they have to wait until the ball is caught and/or hits the ground (or other)?

Another question: Where is the "infield" for the purpose of the infield fly rule? ie. is it within the square formed by the bases or the square plus the "dirt" part of the infield (the semi-circular line on a turf filed)?

Also, in the previous balk question: if the ball gets by the catcher, but he relays it to the pitcher covering the plate and he tags the runner out. Is the runner, in fact, out (and the balk disregarded)?

canmark,
I was running under the impression that no umpire declarations are included in the scenario so that we can discuss what the umpire should do. The scenario does not omit the infield fly as a technicality, WE are supposed to decide whether one should be declared and WHY (I think). Isn't this fun?

Although, I think you are correct in stating that Ump omitted stating an infield fly 'on purpose,' but for differing reasons than you. I think that 'on purpose' means that the infield fly does not apply for reasons other than he simply did not call for one. << Hoping at least.

First, I don't think the infield fly rule is limited to fly balls in the infield. I thought it's the umpires judgment to determine if a fly ball is easily catchable by someone in the infield. But since there is no mention of the infield fly rule, the ruling should be a double play.

If the infield fly rule was in effect, it would depend if the runners were tagged up when the ball hit the ground, or when the ball touched the baseball player.

Some interesting but thoughtful responses by everyone here. I'm rather impressed by your comments, which are not simply "this is the answer and that's that" type of responses.

I'll pop in later with the correct answer to this. It ought to get many of you to go "Duh!" wink

I think Orsino hit the nail on the head. The infield fly rule wasn't meant to protect a lazy runner who can't make it to first before a fielder lets a pop fly drop, pick it up and force a double play.

What it WAS meant to do is protect TWO base runners who are forced to run is a pop fly is dropped. As there are not two runners in a force position, there is not infield fly rule. Soooo... double play stands, batter rides the pine for a few games.

Preface: It was discussed above just what determines an Infield Fly under the I.F. Rule itself. An Infield Fly is called when a fly ball can be caught with ordinary effort by an INfielder, with less than two outs and runners on first and second or bases loaded. Bunts and line drives cannot be called an Infield Fly.

MUST the ball come down within the confines of the infield? No.

MUST the ball be caught by an infielder? No. An Infield Fly can be called if the ball is caught by an outfielder provided the umpire judges that an infielder COULD have caught it with ordinary effort. Obviously, an outfielder catching an Infield Fly would do so in the very shallow outfield, usually right behind an infielder who had drifted out a bit.

What's "ordinary effort?" This is umpire's judgment, but for the most part, it means the infielder didn't have to run top speed to get the ball; the runner didn't have to twist and turn to catch the ball; the runner didn't have to dive for the ball; etc. Note: Wind may be considered a factor in determining Infield Fly, but the Sun is not.

RULING: The Infield Fly Rule applies ONLY when there are runners on first and second or bases loaded with less than two outs. Because there were runners on first and THIRD, the Infield Fly Rule is not applicable. What CAN be applicable is the Intentional Drop rule. That comes into play with a runner on first, first and second, first and third, or bases loaded and less than two outs.

Having said that, the Intentional Drop rule does not apply here for one main reason: The ball was not intentionally "dropped." Yes, the infielder intentionally let it fall, but he did so untouched. One must touch the ball to "drop" it. Therefore, since neither of these two rule situations were applicable, the play stands. It's a double play and live ball.

Let's take a look at another similar situation. Give that one a shot...

[ May 28, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: The Umpire ]

PLAY: Bases loaded with 1 out when the batter skies a high pop up over the shortstop. He camps underneath the ball and at the last second, purposely drops it, letting it pop out of his glove. He fires second to retire R1, then the ball is fired to first to retire the batter-runner. What's the ruling?

This should have been called infield fly by the umpire to begin with--with the runners advancing at their own risk.

Assuming infield fly, wasn't called, then the "intentional drop" could be called, which would make the ball dead, the batter out and all runners holding at the base they occupied at the time of the pitch.

Josh

Josh,

The Infield Fly must be called here. The Intentional Drop cannot for one main reason: By rule, the Infield Fly takes precedence, meaning because it is called when the ball reaches its apex, the Intentional Drop cannot be called since the Infield Fly will have already been declared.

I've had many umpires ask me, "Well, how can the Intentional Drop be called, then, when the bases are loaded or when runners are on first and second if the Infield Fly takes precedence and is called?"

Simple: When it's a line drive or bunt attempt, situations in which the Infield Fly by rule cannot be called. So, let's say there are runners on first and second with no outs. The batter hits a liner to the second baseman, who gloves it but purposely lets it drop to the ground. Ruling: Intentional Drop. Ball is dead, batter is declared out, and runners are returned to their time of pitch bases.

So Ump: can we talk about the your first example some more? It looks like in this case the pitcher actually benefits from having the balk called. Whether the umpire calls balk or not, the runners advance the same in this example, the only difference is that when the balk-pitch is nullified, play resumes with a 1-1 count, whereas if the ump says nothing, play resumes with a 2-1 count. So the balk rule, which is intended to protect the runners (and to some extent the batter) from bogus fakeout moves by the pitcher, winds up in this case actually benefitting the balking pitcher. And all this seems to come from the strange stipulation in the rules that the balk shall be ignored only if all the runners AND THE BATTER successfully advance one base on the play. Including the batter in this proviso would only make sense (to this befuddled queen, anyway) if calling the balk would result in the batter, too, being awarded one base, but that is never the case. Am I missing something here? My head hurts!

Hi, Roy:

Let's alter the situation for a second and say the pitcher threw a strike on the 1-1 count, making it 1-2. In my situation above, the runners moving up would stand, but the strike would be nullified, making the count again 1-1, thereby benfitting the batter this time.

Even though the rules specifically say a balk is ignored on a pitched ball only when all runners AND the batter-runner have reached their advance base--and my situation you reference does not have the B-R advancing--the interpretation on this specific play calls for the play to stand and the pitch nullified. Why? The rationale:

If the balk had been enforced, the ball would be dead and R2 and R3 moved up one base, with the pitch being nullified. So, there'd be a 1-1 count and a runner on third. Well, the result of the "play" is the same disposition of the runners, but in order to make it the same as if the balk were enforced, the pitch must be nullified. In other words, it's just a different way of arriving at the same conclusion, so to speak.

Thoroughly confused? Let's try something different...

Runner on third base and one out when the batter attempts a suicide squeeze. The bunt is a good one, with the catcher grabbing the fair ball and trying to first tag R3, who slides into home safely. The catcher then throws the ball to first in an attempt to retire the batter-runner, but the ball hits him in the back as his left foot is in fair territory but his right foot is in the running lane.

What's the ruling?

Hi Ump,

I would think the batter would be out since part of his body is out of the baseline. It kind of reminds me of the Yankess game in which Ted Hendry did not call interference on the runner going to 1st. Steve Palermo was commentating and said it should have been an out due to runner interference along the 1st base line.

Bill,

The batter is, indeed, out for running lane interference. However, this situation is what we call an "intervening play"--and refers specifically to this particular play. When the defense first plays on the runner coming home, that play stands--in this case he's safe. The batter is declared out for running lane interference, the ball is dead, and all other runners are returned to the bases they occupied at the time of the interference.

In normal running lane interference situations, or when the batter interferes before he reaches first base, runners are returned to their time of pitch bases. The intervening play is ruled a bit differently because of the defense's option to make a play prior to the interference.

Time for another one fellas:

PLAY 1:

With a runner on first base and one out, the batter has a 2-2 count when the pitcher delivers. R1 on first is off with the pitch in an attempt to steal second.

The batter swings and misses with the catcher unable to hold onto the ball. However, he quickly picks it up to fire to second base when the batter's stride takes him directly in front of the catcher, who slammed into the batter in an attempt to throw to second.

What's the ruling, and why?


PLAY 2

Same situation as above, except that there are two outs with the runner on first trying to steal second.

What's the ruling, and why?

Here's my attempt:

Play One: The batter would be out for batter interference and the runner would have to go back to first base.

Play Two: The batter is out for interference, end of the inning.

[ June 18, 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Billinjc ]

My answer's very similar.

1. Batter is out as soon as the third strike is called, because there is a runner on first and less than two outs.

2. If the catcher slammed into the batter, with the ball touching the batter (which would seem to be the case), then the batter is out, because of the put out by the catcher.

Bill & Pat,

I wrote the two situations specifically to address what happens when the batter is out already (then interferes), and when the batter is not yet out (then inteferes).

In play #1, the batter swung at strike three. Because first base was occupied with less than two outs, he is out on strike three. However, he interferes. Because he cannot be called out twice, the runner on whom the play being made is declared out, with all other runners returning to their time of pitch bases.

In play #2, the batter is not yet out but interferes. Let's say it was simply a 1-1 count and the same thing happened: He hindered the catcher's attempt to retire a stealing R1. It's a delayed dead ball, so the play goes through. If the TARGET runner is out, the interference is disregarded (same thing would apply in play #1, BTW). If the target runner is not put out, or if a rundown ensues, "time" is called, the ball is dead, and the batter is declared out for interference, all runners returned to their time of pitch bases.

Interesting note: When the batter interferes with a play at the plate, it's a different runing. It's still a delayed dead ball like above, but if the runner coming home is not put out, then the following applies: With two outs the batter is declared out for interfering, and the run does not count. With less than two outs, the RUNNER coming home is declared out and the batter remains at bat.

Here's another one to ponder...

Deep fly ball hit to right field. The ball hits the top of the wall (no yellow line to contend with here), caroms back and hits the right fielder in the head, then ricochets back over the wall into the stands.

What's the ruling?

Tricky question... My guess would be a ground rule double. I remember the Jose Canseco home run when the ball in flight conked him on top of the head and went over the wall for a home run. I wouldn't think that would apply in this scenario since the ball had already hit the top of the wall and its initial momentum was stopped.

[ June 19, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Billinjc ]

My ruling would be the right fielder probably has a mild concussion. As far as the play goes, would it still be a homer since the ball never actually touched the ground? That's just a wild guess...

[ June 20, 2003, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: William1865 ]

Billy and Willie,

It's a ground rule double. Once the ball hit the fence then the player on the field, it was no longer in flight. Therefore, when it rebounded out of play as a result, it was a ground rule double.

Had the ball deflected off the top of the wall and over, it would have been a home run. Same thing if it had deflected off the fielder then over the wall, a la Jose Canseco.

Suddenly I feel like the weakest link...

Well, it's been a while. I must've been getting lazy. Here's one for the masses...

PLAY:R2 on second base with two outs when the batter hits a liner down the right field line. As he takes off, the umpire points the ball fair, but the catcher, standing next to the plate umpire, screams, "Foul!" As a result, the batter-runner stops halfway to first when the right fielder throws the ball back into the infield, where it is thrown to the first baseman who steps on first for the third out.

What's the ruling?

Just gut instinct here, but I would say the runner is out because only umpires can make rulings, not the catcher or any other player, thus the batter should have kept running and not listened to the catcher or anybody else for that matter. I would think this is why umpires have hand signals, as opposed to yelling things, so there will be no confusion about who's calling what. Again, just gut instinct, but I would also think it is not the runner's responsibility to keep up with what's fair or foul - he should just run.

[ July 14, 2003, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: William1865 ]

I'd say: Interference on the Catcher (intentionally attempting to confuse R2). R2 is awarded thirdbase.

My guess would be that the runner is out. I thought I heard at one time that umpires don't say "Fair" or "Foul", you just signal fair or foul. So, the runner would have to know this and not listen to the catcher.

[ July 14, 2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Billinjc ]

Bill,

We point fair but yell (and signal) foul. So, a fair call is silent, but a foul call is not.

In the above situation of mine, the ruling: Batter-runner is out for the final out, thereby nullifying R2's run. It is the responsibility of the offense to know just what the umpire calls. There is also no such thing as verbal defensive interference.

Of course, the offensive team here might want to plunk the offending catcher when he next comes to bat.

Well, here's a brain teaser to get everyone prepped for the upcoming season.

Can you name the four types of batted balls? (Hint: No, I'm not talking about a home run, single, double, etc.)

There is a reason why this is so important. Aggie and js1mets should know this because it is crucial to what happens in certain situations.

Now that I've stumped ya'll, good luck coming up with the answer!

Let me take a stab at this. Not sure I understand the question, but my guesses are 1) fair ball, 2) foul ball, 3) foul tip, and 4) interference (runner hit by a ball batted). Am I even close?

[ March 22, 2004, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: stinger85 ]

I agree with your first three
1. fair ball
2. foul ball
3. foul tip

but I think the fourth is
4. illegally batted ball (i.e. stepping outside the batter's box or on home plate when the ball is hit, or using an illegal bat)

sorry for the double post...oops!

[ March 22, 2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: stinger85 ]

Impressive. You must've done some research. wink

You both are 3/4 of the way there. One is missing.

And it's the toughest one to think of.

While normally I would ask to take a physical challenge , instead I'll take a guess and say that an "infield fly" called.

Ump, I think you gave us a clue on the answer when you said, "important in certain situations" so that's my final answer.

cool...i got a mention in ump's post...i hope i don't buckle under pressure...

my 4th guess would be "dead" ball. As soon as a ball is hit, it's important to know if it's fair, foul, foul tip (because the ball is alive), or is it dead (ie---ground rule double, or did a batted ball hit a runner, etc).

josh

You'll do fine.

Let's just say I have a certain fondness and bias toward fellow sports officials.

Not quite, josh. I doubt anybody's going to get this one. Here's a hint to ponder: This type of batted ball is live and cannot by definition be dead. Ever.

[ March 23, 2004, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: The Umpire ]

Here's my guess at the fourth - a third strike called by the umpire but is not caught by the catcher, first base is not occupied, and the batter advances to first.

This is quite the tough one...

(Okay, I am editing rather than erasing - Why did I even post that? My example isn't even "batted." Disregard. I am an idiot.)

[ March 23, 2004, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: coyoteugly ]

Yoo hoo Ump!!! Was my answer correct???

I'll take a wild guess -- a sacrifice fly/bunt?

one more guess, a batted ball that is illegally caught?