I was really struck by that comment about "no one would ever mistake me for a jock" comment on another thread. I would have said the same thing four days ago, but I was actually asked if I'd played football (of all things, football!) when I was younger. I guess my lack of speed and hand-eye coordination can't be seen, and people who haven't known me long don't realize I've gained about 25 or 30 pounds since I was 20. Even though not all of that weight is muscle (I've gained 2 or 3" at the waist), I guess I now look slim, and possibly even athletic, rather than scrawny. But my self-image hasn't updated to that.

It's odd how self-perceptions can differ from how other people perceive you...recently another person told me I projected a certain ruggedness. Rugged? I was convinced he was joking, but he swears otherwise...I have a feeling I'll always see myself as a scrawny, rather effete, nerdy intellectual. There's a Margaret Atwood novel where a formerly fat girl is described as feeling as though she's surrounded by ghostly flesh, and has difficulty believing compliments.

I am in complete agreement with you--I think I look like a typical schlubby guy, but a couple of weeks back, a woman at the gym where I work out (who knows I'm gay) told me my status was "too bad" because I'm one of the few "normal, buff dudes" she knows. I would never consider myself buff--but it didn't hurt to hear.

~Adam

Sometimes I think puberty imprints itself upon us almost like a scar. Those early images of ourselves are hard to overcome but it can be done, it just takes diligence and patience. And a sense of humor helps as well. Even after working out hard, throwing on my loose jeans, I still get flashes of feeling awkward and overweight and it's been many years since I was either.

Try:

- working mentally into your new image

- socializing with people who are where you are in the new stage of your life

I had a real shock about 5 years ago. When I was around 9 or 10, my dad would have to take me to the Husky section at Sears when we went school-clothes shopping. I was a bit of a tub of goo. So, I just thought, I'm a tub of goo.

I found a picture of myself taken when I was about 20 and.....I had no gut at all. I was shocked.

But no matter how old I was/am, I still don't photograph well. Photoshop, thank you!

[quote]Originally posted by Jim Allen:
But no matter how old I was/am, I still don't photograph well.

---

I'll second that one. I don't think I've ever seen a photograph of me that I like...well maybe one black and white which my partner framed a few years ago. But those bucked tooth kid shots and big-fro'ed teenager disasters do nothing for me.

I have never seen the same person in the mirror that I see taken by a camera...spooky - or is it just a matter of technique?

Well some people DO take better pictures than others -example- my partner almost never takes a good picture - cuz he gets this deer caught in the headlights non- smile. He says he can't "pose".......... I CAN!! <---copman posing !

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: copman ]

I too grew up as a neurasthenic, nerd nice guy and had no notion of myself as anything but for most of my adult life. However! The good news is that over the past few years, as I have been more aggressive about both my swimming and my lifting there have been some positive results. And while I still don't always notice them myself, the feedback I get from others has really helped me to re-sort that old self-image. When guys start asking you for help in their workout routines -- spotting, designing, whatever -- it's a clue that they see you in genuine jock terms. And when you hear enough of that in the gym that old self image really can change

Yep - Non competitive sports - biking - runnng - really helped my self image cuz I just competed a gainst my own times -and they kept getting better.That way I didn't look at everyone else who was better than me. (and someone always is)

I believe I'm the one who stated that I never was and never will be mistaken for a jock.

Physical self-image was not the reason for my making this statement. I wrote the response in reaction to a reference that outsports.com was 'too jocky.'

I see now that my statement would most likely be interpreted as my thinking that no one would look at me and conclude I was a jock. This was not my intention. I meant, I find sports interesting; just not that interesting in a 'this is a defining characteristic of my life sort of way.'

(As a side note, should we have a what makes a jock a jock thread? It can be like the what make a bear a bear argument! Oooo, I'm getting giddy now)

Yeah, I've been told flat out "you're too old to be a jock", referring to my online name. Problem is, I had the online name a long time ago before I was too old (?) to be one. How do I get rid of it now? Who should get it? Should I interview candidates and make the decision? Auction it off?

Well, I think you should keep whatever name you want. Obviously you tell people your age, so you're not lying to them. Some of us think that guys over 40 in good shape are the hottest jocks anyway.

ATL jock: having visited your website, I'd say you decidedly qualify as a jock -- of the best kind. And will so for a long time yet to come. Even so it seems to me that setting up an interview process for the proper inheritor to that name would be appropriate -- not to mention, a lot of fun. Go for it. besides who else is to say, when you should decide to confer it?
Men do have a way of achieving genuine fullness of "jockdom" as they mature. At 35 + and easily into their 40's and 50's, imho, men are just peaking.

ATLJock....you can be a "Jock" for the rest of your life.

I think the names should only apply to "boi" or "boy" for people that are over 18. I think that anyone over 18 is a man.

People over 30 should never refer to themselves as boi.

Yeah, I stopped by your web site as well. I'd defintiely keep the name. I would stop by for an "interview" if I were in town though

Hey, copman, I just wanted everyone to see the pose of yours that I like the best:



I know you're attached, and I need be careful of which cops I am attracted to - but, I do love cops/officers of law, and men who "wear" the uniform!

ATLJock: it's OK! You keep the name until someone: 1) posts their Clubhouse membership; and, 2) takes it from you, fair and square. We'll let you know when (or if ever!) it's official!

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

[quote]Originally posted by ATL Jock:
Yeah, I've been told flat out "you're too old to be a jock", referring to my online name. Problem is, I had the online name a long time ago before I was too old (?) to be one. How do I get rid of it now? Who should get it? Should I interview candidates and make the decision? Auction it off?

---

Well some day when I retire I'll still be Copman - I earned the name & I ain't givin it up!

Aubie: you're SO right @ "boi/boy"

"I think the names should only apply to "boi" or "boy" for people that are over 18. I think that anyone over 18 is a man.

People over 30 should never refer to themselves as boi.[/QB][/QUOTE]"

I'm not sure, however, that every male over 18 is best described by "man." But better than 'boi" to be sure.

Copman: where's this website of yours?

Can I just say that I've met ATL Jock (live and in person!) and he certainly qualifies for his screen name. People? Are idiots.

[quote]Originally posted by jockpop:
At 35 + and easily into their 40's and 50's, imho, men are just peaking.

---

Speaking from the upper end of that range, I completely agree! (Uniforms a +)

As we've talked about before, in certain circles "jock" means "abercrombie clone", so I would assume (hope) that's what they meant. (You can bet every gay pickup site has a member named "JockBoi".) ATLjock is the genuine thing, and an exceptional guy, as is obvious from his Website and his posts.

One question, ATLjock, do you speak with a southern drawl? (I'm from southeast Virginia, but I don't.)

OK, well, I didn’t mean to derail this thread into talk of my web site or of getting old (but thanks for the kind words, guys). The subject was self-image and my point was that I’ve always seen myself as a jock type guy, but I also know that “jock” label is way overused. And now that I’m 44, I wonder if I’m overusing it too. Just at a time of life where I’m re-evaluating things, and pondering life. I still FEEL like a jock type guy!

Redsoxbreath: I grew up in L.A. (Lower Alabama), but lived in Chicago 1989-94 and I think what southern accent I had flattened out for the most part. I do say “y’all” a lot and use phrases like “fixing to” and “might could” just because they make grammatical sense to me. And I can definitely turn on a genteel southern drawl or even a redneck twang if it’s convenient.

I guess my self-image is southern jock type guy.

I think the important thing is that you have a good self image, regardless of the words you put in front of it. When I was trying to meet guys on the Internet, they always wanted me to put myself into a category, but I never would because I didn't think I'd fit. The best guys I met (including my boyfriend) just didn't even ask the question. We'd trade stats and talk and that would be that. If you want to call yourself a jock, then you should, it shouldn't be constrained to the faceless 20-something Abercrombie imitators. It's very telling that we even have a conversation about what you can and cannot call yourself. Byt he way, I'm 26 myself, so I'm not a bitter ex-jock or anything like that, I just think we have enough labels without adding all these extra ones.

[quote]Originally posted by ATL Jock:
...I can definitely turn on a genteel southern drawl or even a redneck twang if it’s convenient.

---

*melts*

I went through four phases in my life with body and self-image. It was a very difficult road.

In my pre-teen years, I considered myself as being chubby, afraid, and shy because I did not have many friends in my own age group and I had a speech impediment. On the athletic fields, I was the fattest kid on my optimist football team who had trouble in making weight. Also, I played youth soccer and my fat weight limited me in playing keeper because I was very slow in running the field. In addition, I had a lot of fear in failing and lack of self confidence because I was not very good on eye and hand coordination in playing little league baseball. The only good part of my life was my academics because I was a book worm who was always in the library.

However, in my teen & hs years, the weight came off due to playing sports all of the time. I started concentrating in being a good punter and special teams player in hs football because of my size (5'8"). Also, I did play defender in hs and youth soccer because my coach thought that I had a common sense approach for strategy in playing aggressive soccer. However, my successes on the wrestling mat allow me to be accepted by the jocks and cool crowd in my hometown. I was built like your typical middleweight "bulldog" wrestler with a "never give up" and "give'em hell" mentality (some people will say COCKY) but I was known as the guy who will give up his own shirt off his back for you. Also, it helped that I got along with both crowds at my hs ... the brains/nerds and the jocks/cool people.

In my college years, I started facing the dilema of being gay, so I resorted back to getting chubby, fat, and ugly. By junior year of college, I just let my hair grow out in that 80's big hair look with the part down the middle. Also, my choice of clothing (prep/polo) did not fit well on my body. I stayed this way for the most of the 80's because I did not want to face the fact that I was gay. I was trying to keep the image of being unattractive to both sexes.

It was not until grad school in 89 that I started to lose weight and working out. I don't know what made me do it and change my appearance for the good. In 1994, when I decided to come out of my "very shut tight" closet, my hair style and clothing started to change for the better because of the peer pressure in the gay community. If I want to be attractive to other men, I need to take care of my body and self-image. However, I don't allow other people dictate to me on what I should wear or think. I guess that I have become that "jeans and t-shirt" guy with "a nice attitude toward everyone" person. This is the person that I am comfortable with living each day.

I am trying to get to the point where I am flexible, pleasantly muscular, and able to wear anything I want, outside and inside the bedroom.

[quote]Originally posted by bluebird48234:
I am trying to get to the point where I am flexible, pleasantly muscular, and able to wear anything I want, outside and inside the bedroom.

---

Bluebird, I think that sums it up perfectly. For me anyway. My problem is comparing myself to everyone else, the worst thing to do. And believe me, seven months of chemo will wipe out 10 years of exercise. So I'm learning not to compare myself with anyone. And starting over at 38 without the support of family nor any friends is not easy. So exercising is good for the soul as well as the body.
As far as my name 'Thumper', it was a nickname giving to me in college. 'Cute and cuddly with a white furry tail' is what I was told. It should carry me well into my 80's. Although some members here think I'm the resident queen? I'm more butch than 99% of the gays I've met. I just have a over developed funny bone(er).
I'm also starting my gay-mid-life-crisis. So a question for all the 40+ members. How did you cope and get through your crises? What technics helped with this image problem?

I have always been self-concious about my apearance and probably always will, it doesnt matter how great or whatever people tell me I look like. But the older I get the less I base my self-image on the way I look, but instead more on the things Ive done, the things I do, and the way I treat other people. And what is the difference between boi and boy? Is there such a thing as a daddi?

[quote]Originally posted by thumper:
So a question for all the 40+ members. How did you cope and get through your crises? What technics helped with this image problem?

---

Find a b/f older than you - even by a few months so however old YOU are - he is ALWAYS older ! ( I did & I let him know all the time - (6 months is big difference-LOL )

Most of the guys here who've struggled with their body image have had problems being overweight. I've been just the opposite. I'm really short and skinny, meaning it's been twice as hard to add any sort of muscle whatsoever. It's taken me years to devise a workout routine that works. I'm encourged by the fact that all those hot gymnasts are small.

I think i'm onto something, though. I recently went on a camping trip with some friends, and it was nice to sit around shirtless and drinking beer by the lake like my well-adjusted straight buds, without feeling self-conscious.

Although I did forget the the sunscreen and wound up looking like this

And it technically wasnt beer, it was Skyy Blue. I'm not gonna go too crazy with the straight-acting.

thumper, you should know by now that we are your friends and part of your extended family. How do we deal with our "mid life crises"?. Thats a tough question. Answer: the best you can. Just take each day at a time, and try if possible not too worry to much about "things". For me the 40's for the most part have been a breeze. Its life life began again for me. Suddenly I met my current boyfirned who is positive, and we have been togther for 6 years!

Is it easy? No, because I am negative. Do I have all the answers? Absolutely not. Currently I am doing my best to deal with how hiv is affecting my partner and his thing in life, and its been really hard. I have thought about seeing a counselor to try to help. I worry about him alot.

Been very difficult finding people and true friends who ever ask me, "how are you doing?, and how is all this affecting you?

I also have my health concerns, including a bad back and a really screwed up knee, that is going to be operated on in Oct. Yet I still find time to take care of my house, keep food on the table, take care of the yard, and feed 7 mouths. My partner, two dogs, and four cats, so there is alot of love here that keeps me going and helps me cope.

I don't worry to much about my appearance. When younger I used to work out alot. Now its tough, I can walk, but mountain biking, tennis and skiing are all out for the moment. Just take each day at a time, try to live life to the fullest, and consider each day is like a page in your "life" book if you will. There are alot of highs, and alot of lows. If you can accept this, and the pain, then you are halfway home as far as I am concerned. WE are all family here, ok?

It's nice to read this thread here, a real exchange and not about politics! I think self-image for gay people has just as many inherent traps as it does for women. There's so much emphasis on the physical, on the superficial outside image. For me, growing up a slightly chubby kid was always an issue because one of my brothers was super skinny so the contrast was emphasized between us since we lived in the same room and fought like cats and dogs. It took well into my twenties to accept that I was in pretty good shape but at times, my crucifying of myself was debilitating. As my thirties progressed I got more and more into the physical and out of my head. The more I competed in tennis, the more I got into yoga, the more I got into and accepting of my body, my "givens," the better off I was. I think acceptance is the place everyone has to start whether you're young or old, lean or not, etc. Accept exactly where you are right now, understand that this is what you have to work with, and start from there. No judgement, just acceptance. I'm 41 and easily in the best shape of my life and mostly because I wore myself down. I literally got to a point where I said "no more." I could not continue to give myself these messages of "you're not good enough." It's futile. Whenever you find yourself in a pattern, it means you're stuck, you're not expanding...the minute you break a pattern and either form a new way of looking at something or a new way of doing something, you grow and you move on, and you realize that it was just holding you back...

I think age also deepens one's self acceptance if you let it and you work with it...we're not supposed to get more beautiful on the outside as we mature, we're supposed to deepen inside and hopefully, we all know someone who's a little older, a little grayer, but clearly at peace with themselves. And those are wonderful people to be around. I think when we jump off the merry go round of "trying to look good in a speedo" (metaphorically ) we free ourselves to be ourselves...with all that goes with that...

Thumper - I wish you luck and peace recovering from what you've been through...38? You're just a baby ...there's much greatness ahead...

to steal another quote from somebody, I know not who, that I share: there may be a little snow on the roof, but theres' still fire in the oven!! Thats me. The other area of success I have had in my forties, is that I have lost about 19 pounds over the past 4 months. Mainly through eating even better, and exercise. It hasn't been easy, but I did it. Wasn't overweight by any means to begin with, sow more height and weight poportionate at 6'0, and 187 pounds. It can be done!!

[quote]Originally posted by bryan d.:
I think acceptance is the place everyone has to start whether you're young or old, lean or not, etc. Accept exactly where you are right now, understand that this is what you have to work with, and start from there...Whenever you find yourself in a pattern, it means you're stuck, you're not expanding...the minute you break a pattern and either form a new way of looking at something or a new way of doing something, you grow and you move on, and you realize that it was just holding you back...
.

---

What a nice letter - I was truly touched - REALLY - Bryan thanx for sharin that !

my pleasure...

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: bryan d. ]

[quote]Originally posted by thumper:

Bluebird, I think that sums it up perfectly. For me anyway. My problem is comparing myself to everyone else, the worst thing to do. And believe me, seven months of chemo will wipe out 10 years of exercise. So I'm learning not to compare myself with anyone. And starting over at 38 without the support of family nor any friends is not easy. So exercising is good for the soul as well as the body.
As far as my name 'Thumper', it was a nickname giving to me in college. 'Cute and cuddly with a white furry tail' is what I was told. It should carry me well into my 80's. Although some members here think I'm the resident queen? I'm more butch than 99% of the gays I've met. I just have a over developed funny bone(er).
I'm also starting my gay-mid-life-crisis. So a question for all the 40+ members. How did you cope and get through your crises? What technics helped with this image problem?

---

A) You've got friends here, we'll support you.
2) furry tail? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
3) It's been alleged that I turned 40. But I wouldn't say I'm handling it well so I can't help you there.

This is a great thread. Lots of good advice. After reading all these replies it seems to me that your mind, body and spirit have to be in harmony. Then again, a good f*ck from your stud boyfriend wouldn't hurt either.

There have been a lot of great comments on this topic. ATLJock, we have more in common everyday, I'm from L.A. as well.

I think ALL of us from time to time have issues with self esteem, age, body, etc. It's what we learn from them that matters. I'm 38. I'm NEVER going to be 26 again. How can I realistically be envious of a 26 year old with a great body? For those of us over 30, we know that the old adage "wait until you are 30 and it will catch up with you" was true. We have to learn to be happy where we are in life. At 26, hell yeah I had a better body than I have right now. But I am healthier now that I was at 26.

But there are advantages to getting older...you get wiser. I understand that spending 3 hours at the gym for the sake of the "perfect" body in order to impress strangers vs. being home a night with my partner just isn't in the cards for me. So I'll sacrifice the body for my homelife.

This was brought home last week. We had some really good friends that broke up after 14 years. Surprised the hell out of everybody. It makes you realize just what is important.

[quote]Originally posted by thumper:
How did you cope and get through your crises? What technics helped with this image problem?

---

To quote Patrick Swayze in To Wong Fu, Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar: "Moisturize."

Really.

I'm 38, too. Lots of us in that age range here. Just yesterday, while watching the Chief's game at our local gay bar, a new bartender said about me, "I just about fainted when I found out he was 38!" I think it's because I seem to "fit in" better with the 20-somethings, which may not necessarily be a good thing. Immaturity?

Oh, also it's the moisturizer. Did I mention that? Really. It works. Makes your skin look and feel younger.

[quote]Originally posted by Aubie in Bham:
I'm 38. I'm NEVER going to be 26 again.
...spending 3 hours at the gym for the sake of the "perfect" body in order to impress strangers vs. being home a night with my partner just isn't in the cards for me. So I'll sacrifice the body for my homelife.

---

GREAT attitude - you got a LUCKY partner!

Or...do a consistent number of short (no more than an hour) workouts each week with one blow out session (three hours or so of hard tennis)..and sacrifice nothing!!!

Maxallen - what moisturizer do you use ?
Any better than others ?

I'd be interested to hear, too, maxallen.

I once worked with a guy who used Oil of Olay 6-7 years, and at 40 he looked 30.

He was really well taken care of.

Anything like Oil of Olay, as long as it's not a greasy hand lotion like Jergens that will leave your face shiny. I'll usually buy a different product every time, but they're basically all the same. You can buy all sorts of men's face and body moisturizers at the cologne counter of your local department store (God, I sound gay). That way you can wear a small, tasteful amount of scent of your favorite cologne without it being too noticeable or overpowering.

I've been wanting to try the new Nivea line of men's products, but right now I've got a good 6-8 month's supply of some European stuff that my mother ordered from the Home Shopping Network before she moved to a nursing center. I figured since she's not using it, I would. Anyway, it's pretty much just like Oil of Olay, but it was probably much more expensive, which doesn't necessarily mean it's better. At night after washing my face I like to slather on some Aloe Vera gel with Vitamin E (like you can buy at Wal-Mart). It's not at all greasy, and leaves a cool, refreshing feeling on your face. Now that Fall is upon us and the air is getting dryer, I'll use moisturizer all over my body to avoid dry winter skin.

Moisturize! Try it! It's just a little pampering you can do for yourself, and trust me, you'll be glad you did!

Gotta chime in here and agree. I've been using moisturizer (Clinique) every day since college. No one *ever* believes I'm 46; usually they guess 35. No lie. Of course, as with other body issues, genetics has a great deal to do with it, but you can certainly give your DNA a helping hand. Just smear a little on in the morning and be about your business. You won't drop 10 years overnight, of course, but in the long run you'll thank yourself.

On "daddis":

They are super-butch men from Calcutta who inspire fanatical acclaim for their oral skills. Word goes that they also "clean up" well for formal functions, international meetings, and corporate holiday parties.

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

[quote]Originally posted by dwb56:
You won't drop 10 years overnight, of course, but in the long run you'll thank yourself.

---

Well, I intend to start moisturizing in the VERY near future. It's the LEAST I can do for my future mates!!

Drink lots of water on a regular basis and don't smoke. Smoking and dehydration are skin's two biggest enemies...alpha lipoleic (sp?) acid supplements are supposed to help maintain collagen or something like that...

I can vouch for dwb56 looking a whole lot younger than he is. I could be his daddi.

[quote]Originally posted by ATL Jock:
I could be his daddi.

---

yes, atljock. that may be true. but would you be *my* daddi??

This is a fun(y) thread. I know self image is serious for all of us but with all these suggestions and support it makes dealing with it much easier. With reaching 40 next summer I now have to switch to the daddy mode. Instead of the 5'7" stocky wrestlers body I'll change to the 5'7" stocky wrestling coach body. Actually I wouldn't mind teaching these young bucks a thing or two. They can call me daddy as long as they don't put the word 'sugar' in front. Although just last week my next door neighbor told me she thought I was around 32. That was nice. When my hair fell out during chemo my friends said I looked 12. Must be cause I've always used good ole Noxzema.
The old myth about hair and chemo is true. Straight hair comes back in curly and vise versa. Problem was, each night before bed I would have to put in tiny styling curlers on my pubs to get them to curl up. I quickly gave that up for a nice trim job these days. (feathering was out of the question) But now it looks like I have two gotees. I've also got more complements after trimming my chest hair. Not sure if those complement count though. They came from lesbians one night while drunk in a lesbian bar with my shirt off.
The only hair that didn't grow back well are my eyebrows. Are there any mens products out which make eyebrows look thicker and fuller? Like pencils or something? I hate to think of it as makeup but I guess thats what it is. I sure don't want to trim my straight pubs and glue them to my brow. I'd look like Andy Rooney of '60 Minutes'. Any suggestions?