Here's my annoying poster donation/confirmation:

Item Amount: $25.00 USD
Shipping: $ 0.00 USD
Handling: $ 0.00 USD
Quantity: 1
Item Title: Outsports Legal Defense Fund
Date: Aug. 18, 2004
Time: 15:43:42 PDT
Status: Completed

Issuing a personal challenge to all other annoying posters and most importantly to THE most annoying poster... and I think we all know who that might be...Or was all his extra cash sent to Bush's campaign re-election fund?

Tally Ho!

Jim & Cyd, sorry you guys have to deal with this. Although, it does give you guys the opportunity to be at the forefront of gay journalism once again. If there really is no precedent on the books for a case like this, look forward to you guys setting a good one.'

I'll do my best to encourage others to support you guys.

My contribution is in.... and I just wanted to thank everyone else who has given a donation today. As scottie has said a number of times already: the future of the site is at stake.

Also I want to give a big welcome hug and hello to (((JAHUSKERDC))) & (((Rowdy))) who posted their first messages on this thread today! WELCOME!!! :cool:

Just sent $50 U.S.; wish that I could do more at this time.

It truly is a bizzaro world that we live in where this is allowed to happen. Keep on fighting the good fight, Jim & Cyd. We're behind you all the way.

Sorry to disappoint you Coyoteugly, but when I think of annoying posters, you never even crossed my mind...

I just sent in my $100, although it's not enough (nothing is enough to help Jim and Cyd in their time of need, this site has meant so much to me) it's all I can afford right now. My plan is at the start of my next credit card billing cycle to send in more.

I can't believe this guy is serious about suing Outsports! My Paypal contribution is in.

Is there some way I can donate money? I don't have/can't use Paypal, and also don't have checks...but I feel like I should give some money.

Hmmm,

I will send you a check as soon as I dock.

This is dispicable, but you know, with the right media attention drawing people to this site, Jim and Cyd might be able to retire next year...

Not to mention the countersuits I can think of...

Unfortunately the N Carolina Courts are just about the worst in the country to have something like this tried...

Both Lambda and the ACLU sent me legislative warnings this week, along with requests for donations; I think I will contact them to let them know of my concern.

Rob

Jim or Cyd, Can you post an address we could send a check to if we don't have a paypal account?

Thanks,
Barry

I'm neither Jim nor Cyd, but ask and ye shall receive:

Outsports LLC/Legal
4688 Cleland Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90065

~Adam

Mailing cash is never a good idea, but you could get a money order from a local bank or post office and send your donation that way.

Okay, at the risk of sounding like the bad boy in this debate (if you can call it one), it wouldn't be so bad if some of the photos of straight people didn't imply gay situations. Case and point is the latest "Catch 'Em" section where 4 football players are looking at the ND media guide and Brent's caption reads "Yea - he looks hot!"

And we wonder why there's a problem.

So its ok to say those things if your straight? but not if you are gay?

Admittedly society has problems with us; but I don't think that is an excuse for poor behavior.

No, it's not okay period, especially when you're implying a sexual situation. When is it ever okay to make sexual implications for a non-sexual situation - gay or straight. However Outsports seems to abound with that. I don't think you'll find that on ESPN, SI or any other sports-oriented site. The entire thread on Men's Gymnastics reads almost like a review of the latest porn video.

I don't spend much time on other sports websites, so I can't respond to your last comment. However, I know there are often jokes and comments by hosts and callers (same as posters?) on local sports talk radio with plenty of sexual innuendo(e.g. a local baseball player often goes out to seafood restaurants after games because we know how much he likes "fish"). ESPN Magazine also seems to have a lot of sexual innuendo. The difference here is most of the comments are gay sexual innuendo.

Even if it is personally objectionable, is it the basis of a lawsuit? Even though I don't believe it did, for the sake of counter-argument, if the picture/caption implied the plaintiff was gay, is that something to sue about? If so, that means there is something wrong with being gay.

[ August 18, 2004, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: scottie ]

I haven't seen it on the sites you mentioned, but it's common on sites and message boards that focus on actors and other entertainers, yet those sites don't get sued, even over similar implications (expressed, in many cases, in cruder language than you'll find here). Actors have sued tabloids but not those sites. Case in point: this discussion of a TV actor.

Besides, the suit was prompted by the most innocuous part of the site (pictures with disclaimers and few if any captions).

Also, no team or athlete has objected to the uncompensated use of their likeness here (probably because they know there's no revenue from which to compensate them).

I understand what you're saying, but if "eye of the beholder" comments are objectionable every time they cross into wishful innuendo, then Conan O'Brien and Craig Kilborn will have to eliminate their monologs (and Leno and Letterman will have to cut a third of their jokes). And The Onion will have to fold. Sorry.

So are we implying this site is at the level of those? I come to Outsports because I can converse intelligently about sports with other gays and lesbians (although I haven't seen many comments from lesbians in here) not to debase individuals. Sometimes I wonder if some of the people in here come here with even an interest in sports or just for the photos of athletes.

Regarding the suit, I do agree it is probably uncalled for. But maybe it should also serve as a wake-up call for how the site is evolving. I don't wish any harm to Jim or Cyd or anyone else involved with this site. It's been a blessing and great entertainment. But we should be careful how we depict people. I've been a credentialed photographer at sporting events also and I know when you cross a line. I've had many an opportunity to catch a photo of an athlete in a sexual or semi-sexual pose but knew that wasn't why I was there. I was there to catch the athlete competing at their best.

The blame should be shared by all. Many of the comments in the Olympics discussion board have been GREAT regarding the competition. Men's gymnastics seems to be the anamoly. Read through that board and tell me if you would want Paul Hamm or the other gymnasts reading what we're saying about them.

gmg, that remark was totally unworthy of you... I for one expected better.

Thank you all so much for the support. We are so moved by all of you. Despite the accusations of a "lucrative" deal with certain advertisers, we are truly relying on these contributions to pay our high legal costs. You are keeping Outsports.com online!

For those who want to know, there is nothing wrong with forwarding this news story to other people and publications. Gay people should know this is still happening in 2004.

Unfortunately, I can't speak to the lawsuit. However, in response to RBear, I will say that what is at stake here is our RIGHT to free speech, whether you agree with it or not. In this specific case, which is what is in question, there was never any hint in our story or presentation of his picture whatsoever that he is gay. This is a frivolous lawsuit and must be defeated. We will not stop until it is.

There are frivilous lawsuits going on in this country every day, usually as way to make easy money from a company or organization with deep pockets. So it surprises me is that Outsports is being as opposed to all the other gay media that have shown unassuming straight people in their publications.

You can't draw blood from a stone so where does this attorney think he is going to make a financial windfall. If it is simply to make a name for himself, then that really doesn't do much for his client. Perhaps the attorneys out here could shed light on whether they would consider this case worth their effort if the plaintive had requested their services.

This is unusual for these times, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he was making a little joke at the expense of the lawyer in this case, as well as at Bobby and Razorback. I understand how you feel, and was not happy to see his remark, but this is not the thread to discuss it and this is not the time to let this thread devolve into a political crapfest. On this thread we are on the same side. Thank you all for your cooperation.

metromathis: I'm glad you want to help, but if for some reason you can't get the money order as scottie suggested, don't feel too bad. Let's just say I gave enough for the both of us. wink

Joe - Outsports need to raise at least $10,000, so although I'm sure Jim and Cyd appreciate whatever amount you gave, unless it's over $10,000, please don't discourage others from also giving.

I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I was trying to be nice 'cuz he's just a kid. I've learned my lesson. Give, metromathis, give! Empty your piggy bank! wink

This story just pisses me off and puts me in a foul mood. It's totally frivilous and insulting to anyone who's gay. It's just f-ing unbelievable the gall of some people.

I just made my donation to fight the fight.

Comrades:

I just chipped in a donation through Paypal tonight - Wednesday!

(Now joining in the long line of Outsports supporters)

Mikestead

JIP, you read me right - but there was another person butted by my post: the lawyer ME! (And correction duly made, BTW.) :cool:

MarcusF, lighten up - and learn to appreciate a little dry humor. The best jokes are those on all, including the one who makes them, and this even applies to lawyer jokes! wink

Looks like the rise I was looking for never got it up. To quote Mr. Raze, "The silence is deafening." frown

Chris Harbinson wants to turn back time. Back to a time when being gay was considered so horrible, just being NEAR someone or something gay would cause great harm.

No one said Chris Harbinson was gay. In fact, prior to his lawsuit, we had no idea even who he was. He was just another smiling face, stretching out on the street with thousands of others before running a Marathon. Just one of the thousands of registered runners who signed a disclaimer that included the following:

Further, I hereby grant full permission to any and all of the foregoing to use my name, my voice, and/or my picture in any broadcast, telecast, advertising, promotion, or other account of this event for any purposes whatsoever.

Even if Chris had been identified as gay, North Carolina Supreme Court in 1994 said that

"we are unable to rule the bare allegation that an individual is 'gay' or 'bisexual' constitutes today an accusation which, as a matter of law and absent any 'extrinsic, explanatory facts' . . . per se holds that individual up to 'disgrace, ridicule or contempt.'"

Summary of Supreme Court case

In the article that accompanied the picture, there were no gay references at all.

So, to summarize, prior to the lawsuit:

1. We didn't know Chris or identify him
2. We didn't say he was gay
3. There was no gay context to the story
4. Even if we had, presuming that he isn't, and we knew it--that wasn't libel in '94, much less '04.

So we're expected to presume that everything and everyone at Outsports is all gay, all the time? And even if true--that is a bad thing?

I think not!!

We do not have to take a back seat to anyone in asserting our right to be heard. To take pictures, write stories, have opinions--yes, and even have some fun!

When ESPN has a column titled "Sexiest Athletes At The Olympics" and the writer ID's only women that he finds sexually attractive, are we to presume these objects of his published desire are straight and open to his lusty insinuations?

I think not.

When the New York Times, Washington Post and many others publish articles about how female athletes are using sex appeal to sell themselves and their sports, are we to presume that sex appeal is only for straight males? So males don't use their sex appeal to sell themselves and their sports?

I think not.

When Vanity Fair hires openly gay Bruce Weber, to take full-page pictures of Olympic swimmers in their Speedos, are they overtly stating that all athletes are straight, as well as their readers?

I think not.

As we have been repeatedly reminded by NBC, the original Olympians competed in the nude. Does that mean that NBC certifies that all of those [Greek] athletes were straight?

I think not.

As gay publishers, writers and yes--photographers, do we have a responsibility for what may or may not be going through the furtive imaginations of the readers?

I think not.

As gay Americans, we have no more responsibility than any other American to adopt the chaste position to only "catch athletes competing at their best." If you look at any sports section, magazine, TV show, or website, clearly no other photographer has taken such a pledge, nor should they.

As gay Americans, neither will we.

Our hard-fought freedoms won't suddenly disappear. But they can gradually be eroded away, one frivolous papercut at a time. So when they cut at all of us like this, do we not bleed?

Yes we do.

And so I'm going to do what I can to repair the damage Chris Harbinson has done, and fiercely defend my right to be a gay American.

Can you make a difference in this fight?

Yes you can!

We don't have to go off to battle ourselves, but we can send our dollars to do that for us.

We're going to win, and you're going to be very proud to have been a part of a winning team.

Join the winning Outsports team today!

[ August 19, 2004, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Brent ]

I think most of us here understand what you are saying, RBear78240. In fact, the issue of the lack of sports posts (as opposed to non sports-related and politics) was the subject of a recent thread. And I think the solution was twofold: if you want to talk about sports--talk. Start threads, contribute to threads, don't be distracted by topics that you are not interested in. And two, who are we to censor what other people want to talk about? Some people may come here to talk about movies, or the election, or some hot swimmer in the Olympics... what's wrong with that? If someone posts, "I think so-and-so is hot," how does that debase the idividual? Heck, is that diffferent from what people talk about at the water cooler every day? How are the photos of attractive male athletes in Outsports any different from the attractive female models in the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue? Also, the posts and comments made here are made in fun. These are not editorials in the New York Times, these are posts on a message board. By anybody's standard we are way above, say, the gossip column in the New York Post or the tabloids. In fact, Jim and Cyd are very respected journalists, often called upon to comment on issues of gays and homophobia in sports, who have appeared in print and in person and on radio. They also have professional journalism experience outside of Outsports, and have a proven high level of integrity. So I don't think Outsports, or we who participate on Outsports, have anything to feel ashamed about. In fact, we should feel very proud of the community we have created here.

-----------------

Just read your post Brent. Bravo!

[ August 19, 2004, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: canmark ]

Sex and sports go hand-in-hand. That's why there are the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders and that's why Jason Sehorn does ads for 2(x)ist. A natural component of athletes' appeal is that they are usually in very good shape and are usually running around and getting all sweaty. Every major sport draws a certain percentage of its revenue from the people who are drawn to star athletes they find "hot" - so why shouldn't people talk about physical attraction as well as physical ability? It's decidedly human. Case in point: Anna Kournikova.

There's nothing happening on the discussion boards that's out of line.

In other words, Marian Dragalescu is totally hot.

[ August 19, 2004, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Gaga4Gaby ]

Wonderful rant, er... post, Brent. You do a wonderful job capturing sporting events for us, your eye for the interesting and intreguing photo is truly a talent. You also are professional and polite, in observing you work you never take a photo if someone objects. I know this guy didn't object, at least until he found out that he was on a gay sports site. Keep up the good work! Your pics of the water polo tournament and of the recent swim meet were great, we got to see the superstars before the olympics made them famous.

PayPal just confirmed my donation. Good luck and thanks for all the hard work on the site over the years.

Thanks for the compliment Rob--and we're going to have plenty more swim pictures, as well as beach volleyball, track and field, and baseball.

Unfortunately, I wasn't familiar at all with who the swimmers were that I was shooting at Janet Evans. It was only after watching many of them at the Olympics that I've gone back and noticed how many of them were in Long Beach that we haven't posted yet.

I'm happy to report that everyone there was very cooperative, except for my little brushup with Ian Thorpe, which was happily solved by his teammate, Mr. Klim!

Brent - I knew you were an incredible photographer, but did not know you were such a beautiful writer (in addition to being such a great all around guy). Very well said. Bravo!

Sent my $20 via paypal. Go Bucs! :cool:

I know that you are on the list of most annoying posters of some people, but not on mine. C'mon, where are my most annoying posters? I don't want to name names. Their silence is deafening.

Wow, I guess Outsports IS the leader in its field. The first lawsuit -- sorry you have to deal with this, guys, but the lawsuit is without merit. May I suggest contacting LAMBA and the ACLU? Lamba ought be interested, possibly the ACLU would be as well.

We've already talked to both Lambda and ACLU. They could possibly represent Outsports at the appeal level, but not at this initial stage.

There are some that are being very quiet since this news broke. And there are some that are posting in thier usual forum as if nothing is at stake.

Come on guys...this site could easily be a pay site, but we get it free! If some of these guys would just send a PENNY for each post in thier history it would help.

For now I will cut them a break, could be between paydays could be away for a few days, or the economy is just so bad and gas prices are just so high they can't spare even a penny per post. I forgot these are the guys that say the economy is fine. wink

Come out, come out, wherever you are..... :confused:

[ August 19, 2004, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Denver Fan ]

Brent: beautiful post. You rock.

For those who are waiting for others (the "annoying" posters and the like) to chime in, let's remember that this only began yesterday. Some people may be on vacation or just away from the computer for a day. And as Denver Fan said, perhaps they have to wait for their next paycheck. So it might be a good idea to wait a bit.

But I don't think it's too much to expect that anyone who uses this site regularly, whether posting or reading the articles or looking at the photo galleries or whatever, would help if they possibly can.

Donation sent today.


Thanks for the heads up guys. I am an attorney too and this is the sort of BS that makes me crazy about my profession. His lawyers should be ashamed.

[ August 19, 2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: sjtexasex ]

That certain "annoying poster" who is my buddy hasn't posted for a few days because he's in a new job. I'll email him later today and let him know what's up.

I'm sure he'll send a donation...as long as no one tries to take away his pork chop or make him listen to the Dixie "Chics". wink

Your buddy is not the certain "annoying poster" I am referring to.

Exactly. Thank you. :cool:

"He was just another smiling face, stretching out on the street with thousands of others before running a Marathon." (brent)

So, as a professional photographer, 'YOU CHOSE' to hone your craft by trolling the pre-race sidelines for cute guys engaged in provocative poses.!

Not very professional of you! If this site's main intent is sports... perhaps - you should have concentrated on the race!

This lawsuit is your fault Brent!

And who is to say... that the plaintiff here hasn't suffered 'emotional distress'?

I admit... the case is WEAK... but I too get pissed off when someone 'mistakes' me for straight! (short personal story - my boyfriend and I use a house-cleaning service, we supply the cleaning products... Just two weeks ago> we went out to buy a shyt-load of cleaning products. Two women at the counter cashier/bagger... One sez to the other... "It's nice to see guys buying the cleaning stuff... I just hope that they help there wives clean"! Need-less-to-say, I was ready to cut them a second a**hole...) I didn't! But I was offended.

_____


So, although I think the case is weak, who is to say that Harbinson didn't suffer 'emotional distress'?

You take your victim as you find him! [Eggshell Scull theory]
eek! eek! eek!


Maybe OUTSPORTS in the future should employ more reputable 'sports photographers'. {emphasis on SPORTS - not open legs}

.

[ August 19, 2004, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: IronJohn ]

lol, scottie, there are a number of annoying posters, some more so than others. At least that's how I "judge" it. wink

Edietd to add: One just made an appearance above. If he's so offended, he should go elsewhere.

[ August 19, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: GatorJamie ]

He said he gave last night. It is difficult for him to post during the day now. I'm hoping this means we'll have to have Viking Rally threads now instead of those dreadful Eagle Rally threads. But I'm sure he will still find a way to be annoying. wink

I misses me my PF. (sniff, sniff) I mean, not counting the misguided politics 'n' all.

I'm gonna go eat some freedom fries.

This is a purely ridiculous case.. cant believe an attorney would even take it. Thats like saying every single picture of any person ever published in OUT magazine who is straight has been maligned (sp?) Makes no sense.. cant see a case like this winning squat....

When I worked at the K-Mart many eons ago, I was mistaken by a young boy for the Blue Power Ranger. I've been scarred and emotionally distressed ever since. I think I'll track him down and sue ...

The is no inherant distress in being mistaken for heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or asexual. It's just that ... a mistake. Any emotional turmoil that would result from being the object of such a mistake originates from within, from one's own insecurities or prejudices; therefore, the only viable option would be to sue oneself. Maybe we could suggest this guy take himself to court and leave Outsports alone.