I find it funny that when I came out, I unintentionally became more masculine. Hell, I do get confused w/ hetero guys, but then I get pegged as gay since I am prettier than the other guys around here.

Does that make any sense? I wasn't even trying to be more masculine either. It just happened.

Weird ... :confused:

I agree with you NathanJones...

When it comes to masculinity what is it that one is butching up? Is one walking straighter, talking deeper?

Being a man isn't about how much you can bench, how much wood you chop, if you can fix a leaky pipe, or how much flannel you wear. At least for me it isn't...

Being a man is about standing up for yourself and others when no one else is willing to. Being a man is sticking to your values in the face of personal insults.

Too many people, gay and straight, male and female, have this notion of what being man is...I have sex with a girl that makes me a man...I can belch with the best of them, I'm a man...He can fix my sink when it leaks....He can hold me up when I cry...This illusion of what being a man is seems so cave man to me. And the idea of straight acting????

Be true to yourself regardless of what anybody around you thinks, and your manliness will show. You might even frighten the men around you...

Allen

Yeah, I can totally understand that....I think once that weight is lifted of "pretending" we tend to grow abit on our own.

I've seen the complete opposite as well, guys that were about as masculine as they could be suddenly become Queen Nelly, herself once they come out. wink

Certainly people change as they age, most of us tend to become more accepting of ourselves and as that happens, our mannerisms and points of interest change.

I'm a much stronger person mentally then I was in my teens and twenties and less concerned about what others think of me, which goes with my early post about not wanting acceptance from others. Why should I expect acceptance when there are things I will never accept myself?

I don't want anyone to have the wrong impression of me (since I'm a newbie here), I blend in to the general public quite easily and its not an act, but I also never deny my homosexuality nor do I turn my nose up at the various sub-groups in the gay world. After all, we all have that ONE thing in common that will forever bind us together.

On the lighter side Allen, I've gotten plenty of my share of "your too cute to be straight" from the ladies. wink

NJ

Man this thread is getting fun. Why is it such a hot topic? Only because of everything I said previously. No one likes to be stereotyped. It is true that hating all femmes is a form of homophobia and insecurity. Disliking drama queens that are constantly making the world their stage is a little different. If you are going to shove amateur art down my throat it better be good. Furthermore I don’t like be the center of attention so I tend to avoid people that feel a need to get everyone watching them.

I have recently made friends with a few guys that I would say are a bit femme but by no means flamboyant. When you like or dislike someone it is important to point out the qualities that are truly negative. Having effeminate tendency is not what I would call a negative quality. I am not sexually attracted to such a quality but I do not see it as a reflection of their personality.

When we look at all the negative words attached to queen you will see that gay men are not attacking their effeminacy but a trait that is clearly negative. A bitter old queen is not disliked for being effeminate or old but for being bitter and vengeful. Replace bitter with wise and the expression sounds like a term of endearment.

Don’t get the wrong idea. I don’t go around calling anyone a queen unless they are trying real hard to be one.

You guys bring up some interesting points. Consider the too cute to be straight phrase. The reality is that attractive gay men who appear straight to the rest of the world will be fighting off women most of their adult life. I have had far too many brutally awkward moments at work, in restaurants, in cafés and in straight bars. The restaurants, cafes and bars are amusing but at work it was a problem. I retired young, 43, in part because I found it was becoming increasingly painful.

I worked in a homophobic industry and I always felt my sexuality was a private matter. Nevertheless all the close friends I made at work eventually learned the truth. I assumed that everyone must eventually wonder why I have never been married and I don’t sit around talking about chicks. I am convinced some figured out I was gay for those reasons. But there were plenty that never got it.

The absolute worst moment was when the best friend of my boss’s wife called be repeatedly to make a date. She was very smart, very pretty, and very aggressive. She had worked at one point with a gay fiend of mine. Even though he is handsome in his 40s and unmarried I’m sure she had no clue about him either. He is presumed to be straight and I would say far more in the closet that I am. So when this friend of my boss’s wife started calling me, I used work as an excuse not to get involved. I was starting a new job, had no resources and was busting my ass to build a product.

So there we go. I just gave you guys a story of what being an adult gay male is all about. While the work situation was painful, more than a couple of the experiences I have had with women in clubs, restaurants and cafés hitting on me could make for great comedy. I'm not telling you guys this to boast but rather I know I am not alone. I have plenty of friends that could provide similar stories. Have any of you guys seen a movie or TV show dealing with that subject? Nothing comes to mind for me.

I’d like to make one last point about st8 acting versus masculine. I dated a very hot French Canadian who was not in the least bit effeminate. Nevertheless he was an anal retentive neat freak that was a slave of fashion. He tried more than once to get me to dress or wear my hair more “a la mode”. If he were the least bit effeminate I would not have been nearly as turned on sexually as I was. Yet if he took that test I can assure you he would have ended up on the gay acting end.

OK, while we are talking stereotypes let's talk about "gay" stereotypes. I'm talking about gay men who expect every other gay man to fit into some sort of "class". You all know what I mean, "Daddy", "Twink", "Bear", there are countless variations. Add to that all of the sexual stereotypes "Top", "Bottom", "Versatile" and all the "hanky" codes that go with them.

It's no wonder I rarely walk into a gay club. Most gay men can't just "talk" to another gay man. I used to think that computer chat was a great alternative to the bars. You could actually TALK to someone without "looks" or "sexual expectations" becoming a factor. There are still forums where that works (I think this one is a good example); but nowadays there are just too many people on the internet looking for sex; it's becoming a lazy man's night out at the club.

When I meet someone new nothing irritates me more than the question "Are you a top or bottom?" Most gay guys think it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask a person you are just meeting for the first time. Can you imagine what would happen if a straight guy met a woman for the first time and asked "How do you like it baby?" That woman would most likely be insulted and consider the guy a low life creep. So why should it be different for a gay man?

The other thing that irritates me is the expectation that because you look a certain way, you should also act a certain way. I'm a big guy with a military haircut and large goatee. Because of that I'm told I should be into leather. Huh? People are born with the looks they have and unless you have plastic surgery you are who you are. Just because I like my hair short and I have whiskers doesn't mean I have a closet full of heavy leather garments.

I've been accused of having a 1950's mentality. But you know, whats wrong with just talking to a guy, getting to know him with no expectations, developing a friendship and seeing how things fall into place? My boss at work has a saying I really like: "Keep it simple".

Do they still have the little emblem that you can post on your website that shows your score on the test? It sounds like they may take it more seriously than you think.

The only time I've come close to having a woman hit on me was in a lesbian bar.

[ February 16, 2004, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

I guess, I'm the odd man out here Thom....until last June, I worked as a VP of Risk Management for a large and very conservative Company. I was also the GLOBAL liason for my Company with a Company known for its "good ol' boy" mentality: Halliburton.

When I was assigned the liason position, I remember thinking, "oh jeez...this is gonna be interesting"....again, let me preface all of this by saying, I don't run around "screaming I'm gay, I'm gay!" but I don't deny it when probed...

So sure enough, in the very first introduction I had with the Global Risk Manager, a definite "good ol' Christian boy" from Lubbock, TX, him and his secretary began to feel me out about my personal life over lunch. During this discussion, the secretary volunteered that her "crazy ex-husband" had left her for a "MAN"!

Then, the questions began...."So are ya married?" No, I responded. "Girlfriend?" Nope. "A nice lookin' guy like yourself with no girlfriend?" Nope.

Secretary chimes in: "Divorced?" Nope. "Ah, you live with someone?" Yep. "How long have y'all been together?" Um...going on 17 years. "Wow, and y'all haven't married?" Nope. "Kids?" Nope.
"Whats her name?" Mark.

Silence.

Needless to say, it was quite awkward, but I wasn't gonna lie. They kept digging and finally, they got what they were looking for. Actually, it wasn't me that was squirming, it was them.

I thought for sure that when I returned to my office that day, I would have a message from my boss (I was out to the very top of my Company)telling me, that I was being taken off the account. But that never happened.

I ended up so well respected by the Department within Halliburton, I was asked to take over their entire Risk program, they even set me up with an office in their Headquarters.

I also became good friends with that good ol' boy from Lubbock....he use to try to get me to go with him to "Promise Keeper" Meetings. I always told him I would, if he would come with me to a gay bar. Needless to say, I never went to a PK meeting.

I guess my point (this time) is whether its girls coming on to me or sticky business situations, I've never feared being outed. All that crap you went through could have easily been stopped very quickly with those three little words...."I am gay". wink There is nothing to fear, but fear itself, to use that old cliche'.

NJ

Prologue...Mark and I "divorced" in October, 2001 but remain close friends.

[ February 16, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: NathanJones ]

Great story! When you mentioned Halliburton I kind of half expected you to say "Vice President Cheney's former company". The media is trying real hard to make sure everyone knows that.

But anyway, I agree with you; its a tough thing to come out at work. But doing it right when you start a new job or position is the best way to go. When I moved to Florida 3 years ago I made a point of telling my associates that I moved here with my partner Fred. We had some occasional pickup football games and I brought him along to play. It sure makes your life and YOUR JOB a lot easier when people know the truth!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe in Philly:
Do they still have the little emblem that you can post on your website that shows your score on the test? It sounds like they may take it more seriously than you think.[QUOTE]

Yep Joe, its still used...again, I'm friends with webmaster of the site....not just internet friends, but a "real" friend. He is a businessman and as a businessman, he has to get the word out about the site. Those emblems are used to draw others to the site....to check it out, to contribute to the site...he hasn't had much success getting financial sponsers to the sites other then the typical "adult gay" BS, which he refuses to sell add space to.

He wants the site to be a site thats available to kids dealing with "coming out/coming to terms" issues, so he keeps its strictly PG-13.

Believe me, I know this guy and he's not a man that is dealing with internalized homophobia. I have the utmost admiration for him.

Several months ago, he posted a link to an apparent gay cable access show recorded in LA. He and a group of the guys from the Board were asked to participate in a "Battle of the Straight-Acting" guys....a full 30 minute show discussing the site.

I watched the show (via the link) and it was clear from the onset that the Host of the show had an agenda. He was gonna ridicule and make fools out of the guests, especially the webmaster.

Well it didn't happen. The Webmaster was asked to explain "what 'straight-acting' means to you"? He explained his belief and his reasons for starting the site (other then an attempt to make some money off the internet, afterall, isn't that the point of this site as well?).

Again, I reference from the actual site:

"Society has stereotyped homosexual men as being feminine. Some are. Some aren't. So then, what do all these words mean? Straight Acting? Masculine? Feminine? Unfortunately, they mean a lot of different things to different people, so it's hard to "judge" just how "straight acting" or "masculine" someone is. Does Masculinity have to do with "muscles"? NO! Does being more "Straight Acting" than feminine make you a better person? NO! Does displaying your gay pride mean you are feminine or proud to be feminine? NO!

Chances are that if you're gay, a minority, or both, you've dealt with some form of discrimination in the past. Unlike what other people might say, calling someone "straight acting" or someone looking for someone else that is "straight acting" is not a way to "diminish gays as human beings or marginalize the gay community." It's called PREFERENCE...nothing more, nothing less. Don't discriminate against people that express their preference!

Just as people have preferences for the type of guys they like, for example, "TALL men", many of us have a preference for "straight acting" men-- Men that have very few effeminate traits but still like to get down with other men.

This site was created to help people find each other! We see all people as equal. Regardless of sexual orientation, age, race, religion, or what level you achieve on our quiz--we are all EQUAL. This website is for fun! Don't make it anything more than it is, and anything less either and you'll be fine."

I'll reiterate, my disgust for the term, "straight-acting", but I think the message here is more important then the terminology.

That pretty much sums it up. (at least for me)

NJ

PS...sorry guys for the hard to follow posts, I'm still trying to figure out how this works.... frown

[ February 16, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: NathanJones ]

I’m no different NJ. However, I like to out myself on my terms and when I am ready. Preferably I would like to use my own language. If anyone asks I answer the truth. If they ask “are you gay”, I will say yes.

Still I have a problem philosophically with the use of heterosexual and homosexual as nouns. I see and fell sexuality as a far more fluid and ever changing deep emotional feeling.

When I look for porno on the internet I am always looking for the hot guys and not the chicks. So I suppose that makes me gay. But with photos I also look for a certain physical appearance and shun many others. With pornography I tend to prefer some races over others but in the real world that is not the case. The visual appeal is just one aspect of attraction. I have enjoyed sex with men of all races because I connect with the essence of the person not just the physique.

As for woman, sometimes they just like my look, but many times I know I am guilty of sending signals of which I am unaware. There have been more than a few occasion where I meet a woman so beautiful, classy, and intelligent that I feel a connection that could be confused with heterosexual attraction. It is rare, but it does happen. It is often followed by a romantic or even erotic dream of the woman.

Am I confused? No not at all. I am bisexual. I don’t thinks so, but then that is just another noun. I am not confused because I know what I feel is normal and what is abnormal is trying to neatly package our psychosexual feelings into a little box that we can put on a shelf somewhere.

I resent the sexual segregation of the gay culture. Once a city passes a certain size, the woman go one way, and the men another. Yet, I am convinced that the gay men and lesbians who have no desire for companionship with the opposite sex are in the minority.

Too often our culture denies or tries to battle with the natural flow of nature because it creates disorder. We love to attach labels so that we can put personalities into manila envelopes and drop them into a hanging folder. Timber07, if you’re reading this you know what I mean. Just saying you’re gay isn’t always enough. You now have to decide if you’re top, bottom, versatile, into leather, a daddy, a circuit boy, or a twink, and of course let’s not forget butch or femme. Whatever happened to the cry I am who I am, now why don’t you just try to get to know me as an individual.

I don't know, I don't like all the labels we as a society place upon ourselves, but I really don't think its a gay thing....its just part of the "identification process" we all use. Its part of human nature. I think the first time we become aware of labels is High School or maybe Junior High.

We're defined by labels. Take the label "obese". No one who is fat would say "well I don't identify with that term "obese", I'm just me."

If they did I think we'd think they were crazy, cause no matter how you slice it, an obese person...is obese.

The color of your hair and eyes are labels which describe you. Your ethnicity and country of origin, labels which provide clues to your background and physical appearance.

We use labels to describe our personalities, funny, corny, jackass, moron, cool, generous, liar, kind, etc.

I think alot of gay/bisexual men love to play that "I wont be boxed in by labels" because they dont want to have to deal with the social stigma of being gay or bisexual.

Everyone knows what turns them on. You know what does it for you, and you know what doesn't. These things translate into a label.

If we're rejecting labels that refer to sexual orientation, why not reject them all?

Then we can all be people with no characteristics, bland, blank slates of nothing.

NJ

If you choose to be in put in a box neatly categorized to where everyone knows what to expect of you, you know what people want you to be, and you are going to follow all those stereotypes, that's all fine and your own business. Some of us refuse to be boxed in and told what our personality traits, likes and dislikes are supposed to be. I dont know what you mean by not rejecting all stereotypes or labels? I dont think most people think labels on straight people are good either, trailer trash, yuppy, nerd, geek, or ethnic slurs and labels, or anything meant to put someone in a box without even knowing them.

Alice in Chains best describes people who choose to be labeled. "I'm the Man in the Box, buried in my Shit, wont you come and save me"

Look @ your own website....and tell me your not labeled?

"Certified JockBod"?

"Muscular/Gym Build, Ameteur Body Builder, Gymnast, Runner, Swimmer Build, Heavy Lifter/Power Lifter, Average Gym Build, Football Player, Cycler, Martial Artist, Cross Trainer"

"Intellectual, Competitive, Cooperative, Funny, Sarcastic, Flirty, Dry, Loving, Serious, Romantic, Leader, Follower"

You are a "man in a box" put there by your own descripitions...even your friends "Mountain Biker, Metallica and Foo Fighter fan, and Sonics Fanatic"....all labels.

We all do it....look in the mirror.

NJ

[ February 17, 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: NathanJones ]

Umm, besides for "certified jockbod" which I didnt put there, the rest are not labels, they are likes and dislikes, or interest or personality traits, and I drank too much last night, so the mirror wouldnt be a pretty site right now.

Well if you go back and read my entire post and not what you edited it down to, you'd see that my point is that labels are descriptions we use to identify ourselves and others....including things you might like to do, etc....

You'd also see that my first line indicated I didn't care for labels either....but I admit I use them on myself and on others....

And we all know where "I won't be boxed in" got Layne Staley.

NJ

Layne Staley, Kurt Cobain, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, they all did drugs and all got instant Fame and Wealth, but they also tore down doors and changed people's perspective on the world, and are now cultural legends, it is a shame they couldnt handle it.

Guy from Alice in Chains is "a cultural legend." Yep, right alongside Jessica Simpson...

Very interesting discussion here, and I am glad to hear more about how the webmaster of "Straight-acting.com" really wants the site to be thought of.

When I was closeted, I was always very careful to make sure I dropped my voice down an octave or so, held my wrists and arms in a "non-gay" way, and acquired an interest in all things sport - they were all ways I used to hide my sexuality, which I thought was as obvious as the nose on my face. After all, I always could tell who was gay, and I thought everyone else could as well - I didn't know about gaydar at that time.

After I came out, I dropped the pretense, and a good friend of mine finally said "now I can see it - now that you're not acting" and it's definately true. I still get mistaken for straight a lot, because I don't fit gay stereotypes, but I am a lot more obviously gay than I used to be, and I think it's great. I've often said we have a real debt to our nellier brothers - they took all the sh*t that we couldn't face, because they didn't have a choice.

I thought this quote was really interesting, if only because it misses the point of "butching it up." Every guy in America, straight or gay, has to "butch" himself up to meet our expectations of masculinity. We all know how European men seem gay to Americans, because they are not all John Wayne-loving, beer-swilling, and sports-addicted. I don't think there is a real difference in the men, just in how we act. I really believe the image of masculinity in our culture is as impossible to achieve as the Barbie-doll looks women as "supposed" to have, and most straight guys work really hard at fitting that image. We probably have it better because at some point, we are able to just let the whole image go, and only retain those parts that are truly components of our personalities.

I scored a Level 1 on the quiz -- but big deal. Be yourself, like what you like, hang out with who you want and appreciate those close to you for whomever they are.

A guy I know always lowers his voice and talks about "tossing around the football in the park with straight buds" and all the women he allegedly nailed in college whenever he sees me. A friend of his is an artist, has effeminate mannerisms and has a unique wardrobe. I'd much rather spend time in conversation with the latter guy vs. the former. That's because he's comfortable in his own skin and doesn't pretend to be someone he's not. He doesn't follow sports, but he and I once spent probably 20 minutes talking about what a big role Friday night football games play in the smalltown South and how we both enjoyed them.

I think you can find common ground with anybody.

Okay I scored a 2. I'm not Mr. Stuble who walks around in football pants wink wink So the test has a + or - factor depending on the honesty of the testee. I wish their website would allow for photo's larger the 100K. That's my comment.
P.S. I find it ironic that Wes Clark for President adverises on this site. Damm where's his campaign staff when you need them?

[ February 17, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Eastsidewa ]

Actually I am attracted to a personality before anything else. There is no certain "look" that I go for. I have dated guys older, younger, shorter, (not any taller than I can think of off hand), thinner, fatter, you name it. In all cases it was the personality of the man that attracted me to them.

Few gay men can really grasp the concept of falling in love with the person and not the body.

That's not a paid advertisement, the webmaster is just a fan of Clark's. So he put the banner up. wink

NJ