http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/28/nyregion...8socarides.html

Yes, that is disrespectful. Intentionally.

This man wrote books and went on TV repeatedly claiming to the bitter end that if we got our head shrunk, preferably by him, we'd be straight.

BTW, Dr. Family Values was on his fourth marriage. Why am I not surprised?

Deleting this potentially offensive thread.

[ December 30, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: eddiecat ]

So weird that his son is Richard Socarides, former gay liaison to Clinton and now working for HBO.

Yet another anti-gay quack (who claims that gays are turned that way by distant or absent fathers and doting mothers) with a gay child. He was most dangerous because he spread his witch doctor hooey as a psychiatrist even long after the APA and AMA denounced it. He never missed a talkshow opportunity and was a golden boy of Exodus, Focus on the Family etc. since he was one of the few psychiatrists that they could find that still professed such crap.

If he and Alan Keyes and Anita Bryant and Phyllis Schlafly and the others really believe this crap then what does it say about them as parents and their credibility to be leaders in the "family values" movement.

Those who throw stones and live in glass houses, of their own design, shouldn't be architects for other people's houses.

[ December 29, 2005, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: UMRebel/Bucfan ]

I've noticed that many of the most virulent haters have gay/lesbian offspring or siblings. And there is increasing evidence that a tendency to be gay/lesbian/bi/trans is inherited. And it is considered a truism that the most virulent haters are often hating out of fear of their own gay tendencies.

Add 1 + 1 + 1 ...

Are you sure he's dead? I mean, it's in the New York Times.

LXN

Maybe you hypocrites should go picket his funeral like the rest of them….

Thuper!

Where is it? Holla!

I just don't know why so many of you are so threatened by people like him, unless you fear the US backsliding into some Nazi state where we will all be put in camps. Not bloody likely.

Anyway, some people probably got some real solace from this guy and people of his ilk. Earlier in the week there was some discussion about gay teen suicide. I bet this guy's teachings, as misguided as most of us think they are, probably saved some very confused people.

And isn't it a bit hypocritical to be dancing on someone's grave when we get so upset with the folks who wish us dead? As far as I know, he didn't wish gays harm; rather he thought he was helping people and I bet a number of his "success stories" feel the same way.

Was he a quack. IMO, yes. But am I glad to see him dead? Why would I be. He was no threat to me.

Perhaps when you die, somebody will start a thread titled Gay-Hating Shrink Hater Kicks The Bucket.

[ December 29, 2005, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: FireMikeTiceNow ]

Amen Ticey.... Amen.

I hope you don't fall off that high horse someday.

FMTN, you have got to be kidding! You think this guy SAVED people who were gay by teaching them that it was because of their upbringing and that they could change? Have you read any of this man's books. You might want to take a look at what this guy taught before you make such proclamations. I do research on things before I make blind comments about them. I read through a couple of his books and believe me he is no kind hearted, concerned, "love the sinner hate the sin" misguided soul. He is a very nasty man who filled gay people with misinformation about the origins of their sexuality and offered them false hope to be fixed. You may believe in these techniques and believe that they help the people that undergo the treatment but the overwhelming research shows that the vast majority of patients are not converted and in fact come away with a greater feeling of dispair and failure than they went in with. That is why the Amercan Psychiatric Association and the American Medical Association have completely abandoned and gone on record in disagreement with his outdated theories. I have no doubt that he did much more harm than good. By the way his own son thinks so too.

And Phillyfan you should check out the Exodus movement. Not because I don't enjoy having your variety within our community but because you seem to be so unhappy in the community. I don't believe it will work but if you do that's all that matters.

[ December 29, 2005, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: UMRebel/Bucfan ]

With all of the hate crimes that take place every damn day,reported and unreported,we had better be threatened by people like this.That's how the sick bastards that commit these crimes justify it.Between the ministers and the shrinks,I don't know who's worse.Perhaps we should call Dr.Laura. :mad:

Well how do you accout for those who claim to be changed? Maybe they weren't really gay. Perhaps they were bi and have chosen to give up same sex hookups?

I don't need to read his books. I know he was a quack. But I also think crystals are bullshit. I think astrology is bullshit. I think religion as a whole is bullshit. But I am not going to deny people that want to delve into that their right to do so.

And as far a picketing funerals, that's more in line with your buddy Fred Phelps Phillyfan.

What is this "Thuper" shit? Is that your own speech impediment or is it your moronic assumption that anyone who is gay but not a card carrying member of the extreme right wing of the Republican party is a lisping fag?

Be happy to put on some gloves and meet you in the center of the ring any day buddy. We'll see who comes out lithping.

You rock,baby!

Meh, it doesn't matter, his stupid "teachings" live on.

I'm more concerned about the thousands that are damaged than I am about the few who claim to have been changed. It would be much healthier for people to be helped to understand their natural sexuality and to fight the social intolerance that leads to their dispair than to try to change something that doesn't need to be and by most accounts can't be changed. It makes more sense to teach people to accept their natural sexuality and change bigotry than to teach them to accept bigotry and change their natural sexuality.

Why is it you always hear these "ex-gay" testimonies from those who are fresh out of the "reparative" therapy. The AFA has been hocking a book full of testimonials from their Ex-gay poster boys for over 10 years now. EVERY SINGLE person in the book subsequently signed an affidavit saying that they were not and never had been changed and that the treatment was a scam. They demanded that the book be pulled two years after it was first published. They finally had to sue the publisher to stop distributing the book because the claims made in it were false. They won the case so the AFA started getting it printed in England and still, over eight years later is using it to mislead new recruits. They know they are propagating lies but they don't care. That is wrong, even, and especially if you do it in Jesus' name. If these groups were not using fake science and lies I would say more power to them. I wouldn't change if I could but if the procedure was found to be valid and scientifically plausible I would support anyones choice to go through with it.

I don't support taking people's money and giving them false hope for witch doctor cancer cures either. According to your logic as long as it made them feel better, until they realized it didn't work, it's all good.

I think it speaks volumes that you are defending the practice of a man who's theories you're not familiar with (but think is quackery, by your own statement) and who's books you don't need to read.

Though I do understand, and agree, with your point that it is in poor taste for people, including myself, to seem to take pleasure in his death I don't think that that warrants defending the man's work.

I'm not glad that the man is dead. I feel sorry for the loss of all of his children from each of his four marriages and the rest of his family and friends.

I will not however shed one tear for the loss of his quack medicine.

Interesting reading:

http://www.hatecrime.org/exgay.html

http://www.lionking.org/~kovu/bible/section10.html

[ December 29, 2005, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: UMRebel/Bucfan ]

I should not have made light of this man's death,either.Let's face it however,there are lots of folks out there who couldn't care less if every LGBT person suddenly dropped dead.Regardless,the majority of us still cannot legally get married and we still face all kinds of discrimination every day in every race and class.

I can't imagine how many people he actually helped, but if there were any, they lucked out. I bet he hurt (directly or indirectly, through those who subscribe to his views) many, many more than he helped. Still, at most, this was someone on the fringes of power and influence, unlike politicians. So while I won't mourn his death, I don't care to celebrate either. He's dead. May his views die with him.

[ December 29, 2005, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

If you can show me one shred of scientific evidence that crystal reading, astrology and religion are innate characteristics then maybe I will understand the point of your comparison. Those ARE choices and I don't believe anyone or any scientific evidence would argue the point.

If you want to compare sexuality conversion to changing a person's handedness or ethnicity then we can have an apples/apples debate. You can make a left handed person write with his right hand. Does that make him right handed? No. It makes him a left handed person writing with his right hand. As far as I know handedness, though innate, is nowhere near as critical in its affects on human identity, expression, happiness and satisfaction as sexuality. Yet studies have shown that people that were forced to change their handedness (believe it or not it happens) are adversly affected psychologically and physically. Imagine what sexual orientation suppression does.

OK. I'm done. No more preaching. Guess I got the spirit from my Southern Baptist Pastor father.

What's the old adage? A fool and his money are soon parted. If people are so desperate and dopey to give this guy his money and it is indeed a scam, then shame on all of them. But like I said, who are we to say that some of these people aren't happy with their new lives? We have no more proof that people haven't been legitimately helped than they have proof that people have been helped. I know I don't believe that it works, but I don't have proof. I am not going to judge them for their beliefs.

And I most certainly did not defend this guy's teachings. I just refuse to revel in a man's death. I am neither happy nor sad the man is dead. Just because I haven't read his books, doesn't mean I don't know what his message is. There are enough of these loons out there that I don't have to read each and every book to know what they are preaching. It is quackery of the highest order. I know I will never succumb to such things. Why? Because I have a brain and free will.

Freedom of speech. Freedom of choice. Open exchange of ideas. Seems as if some folks here believe these things so long as the speech, choice and ideas are in line with theirs, which is exactly what these folks accuse the opposition of all the time.

Anyway, we're just talking in circles so I'm out of this thread.

Oh, here we go. Now I'm one of those "so liberal that they've looped around to fascist" pinkos who only supports free speech if I agree with it. Clever.

Wave that flag at someone else. I'm not bitin.

I don't know where you studied law but fraud and malpractice are not and have never been considered free speech in this country.

It's wonderful that you've never been in a crisis that left you vulnerable and desperate for help: terminally ill or a young gay person in a devoutly religious family in the rural South (like I was). There are a lot of things that people turn to in times of crisis that they wouldn't have if they weren't. I hope you and no one you know ever gets taken advantage of because they are "desperate and dopey". I believe in free speech as much as anyone but I also believe that people that are in a position of desperation (young, elderly, sick, mentally/psychologically disabled etc.) deserve a certain level of protection. You may believe that scamming a desperate terminally ill cancer or AIDS patient with fake medicine is free speech and free enterprise that should be protected, "consumer beware", but I guess on this one I'm just a screaming liberal fascist.

UM whatever you are....

First of all, reading your name i have ZERO respect for you already.... buc "fans" have proven what they are.. bandwagons...

Second of all.. with you small posting amount, don't TRY to tell any of us.. that the man hater, anti-whatever it is... who bitches that everyone HATES everything in this world can start a thread about being glad someone is dead and not be called out for the same hate she/her/it throws around this board.

My point is strictly the same BS we put up with someone can dance of a grave of someone you don't agree with.

Me, I personally dont care what he thought/said/did in his life. He has passed away. Sorry for his family, sorry for his friends. As much as I might disagree with him... to dance happy dances...I find that person nothing more than a Hypocrite.

Oh Yeah... GO BUCS YEAH TEAM!

I just love this board where agreement of opinions and ideas are based on the team you back and/or your genitalia.

I don't think there is a grave anywhere that I would dance on, but the world in general (and especially the gay community if anyone cares) is probably better off without this one.

Well said, HornFan. I disliked the title of this thread, and even more once I opened it and started reading hate from all sides. Hate accomplishes nothing. Haven't we all learned that lesson yet? Sadly, I guess not.

The ego is strong with this thread, that might explain part of it.

There is a world of difference between hating and wishing dead an entire group of people (gays/lesbians, Jews, Muslims, Latinos or whoever) and "hating" (which no one here really said) one individual who did harm to thousands.

As for vulnerable and damaged people seeking help, isn't that the point? They sought help and instead of being helped by someone who could help them realize that being gay/lesbian was not sin or crime but who they are, that the problems are social and not innate, that they can be happy and be gay/lesbian, that there are millions of happy and successful gays/lesbians in loving and fulfilling relationships, people who went to this man and his ilk were harmed further. They were told the problem was them and that unless they did the impossible they were failures who would never be happy. Further, he harmed those who would not come within 50 feet of him by happily being a "resource" for those who spread bigotry and promote discrimination.

I also think crystal healing, astrology, et al are bunk and sometimes they do harm when people turn to them instead of to legitimate science. But give them credit, I don't see crystal healers going on TV or writing op-eds and books saying that an entire group of people should be denied civil rights because we are basically diseased and abnormal.

And yes, I do find it ironic that those who trumpet "family values" have such poor family lives themselves. As for sympathy with his 4 wives and however many children in their loss, well, maybe some. But how much sympathy did this man have for the gay kids kicked out of their homes because they wouldn't "change" like he said they should? Fired from jobs? Have their children taken away? Expelled from school? Kicked out of the military? Raped? Murdered?

I believe "some" of those who are uncomfortable with the title of this thread have either lived a privileged/protected lifestyle or have never been the victim of anyone's homophobia.Here we are in the 21st century asking for fair and equal rights and we are still accepting crumbs.This particular doctor made of lot of money and probably destroyed a few lives along the way.Sorry if I don't shed a tear.

Phillyfan wrote:

Wow that's pretty harsh bud. But it does help me understand you more. Interesting that someone can disrespect another person based on the sports team he supports. Been a Bucfan and season ticket holder since the dismal Bucco Bruce days. If that makes me a \"bandwagon\" then head 'em up and move 'em out.

I respect you EVEN if you're a Phillyfan. I respect YOU as a child of God. Your fan status has nothing to do with my respect for you. However, I have a lot of disrespect for some of the things you've said and the disrespectful way that you said them.

Not exactly sure what you were intending to say but if you were claiming that I danced on anyone's grave or was happy about anyone's death then you can read no better than you can write. Don't assume that my posting on a thread means that I agree with the opinions of everyone on the thread and don't assume that I agree with EVERYTHING that someone writes just because I agree with SOMETHING that someone writes.

Although I do care what he said and did, not so much what he thought, I agree with you that I feel sorry for his family and friends and stated as much earlier. I also agree, as I stated earlier, that it is in poor taste to celebrate his death.

Even if written in sarcasm, I think that's the nicest thing I think I've ever seen you write and I couldn't agree with you more!


millerbeach wrote:

There have been some inappropriate and cruel things said about this man but I don't think that those (including myself) who wrote against his teachings and methods can be accused of hating him personally. I've had this arguement with millerbeach on another board where I was accused of hating the Catholic Church because I hate some of the things that they do.

I hate the way America went to war with Iraq but I don't hate America. I love America and fought for her in the first gulf war (Legitimately). I hate the oppression of homosexuals in some churches but I don't hate Christianity or anyone in the churches. I'm an active member of one. I hate the anti-gay policies of the Republican party but I don't hate Republicans. I'm currently registered as one. Understand? It is possible.

Some people need to learn to separate their hate of a person's actions from the person himself. Others need to learn that you can hate a person's actions without hating the person. Both positions are equally ignorant.

Footnote: in every instance that I used the word "hate" in this post it was in the verb form and my intention was to convey the "Mirriam Webster Dictionary" 2nd definition of the word. The different definitions of "hate" are posted in a subsequent post.

[ December 30, 2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: UMRebel/Bucfan ]

Hate, in any form consumes one. I think we might tend to hate those who hate us and make ourselves miserable.

It doesn't matter whether you are gay, straight, bi, transgendered or whatever, there is going to be someone that doesn't like you and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

I'm beginning to think we are living up to the parody of the gay "activitists" on Queer as Folk where it really is all about them and how they appear to our community rather than existing in the larger community known as life.

So he hated us and spewed crap. Those who hate us anyway will believe it; those that don't thought he was a crackpot. I'm personally not going rejoice in this man's death. Hate is such an ugly, and ultimately, detrimental emotion.

Aubie - you hit the nail on the head. I never thought I would be quoting Richard Nixon but he said it best in his Farewell remarks to his staff:


"Always remember others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself."
--Richard Nixon

While on this subject, there seems to be a lot of hate in many of the threads lately.

Hate hate. Love love. Fear fear.

I'm just sayin that I find it odd,

That someone SO UTTERLY PC correct and is quick to throw out labels of anti-this anti-that... everyone racist, hating this or that..... gets so utterly offended when someone doesnt share their small worldly views...

Would be so quick to start a hate/glad someone dead thread...

[ December 30, 2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

WORD

I think it is clear that we are getting lost in semantics or the lack of consideration thereof. Maybe this will help clear up some of the misunderstanding.

The Merriam Webster Dictionary:

I will not attempt to speak for anyone else as to which form of the word they intended. It seems clear that some were expressing the first definition of the noun.

Speaking for myself however, I can categorically state that EVERY time I used the word hate it was intended as the verb definition. I expressed an extreme dislike and it was NEVER directed at a person, INCLUDING DR. SOCARIDES, but rather at statements and actions of a person.

I hope this helps everyone realize that we may be misunderstanding the thoughts of each other based on a difference in definition of the word.

Once again, I can only speak for myself and trust that people will take me at my word.

I would also like to state that I don't think Dr. Socarides hated gays by any definition of the word. I think he misunderstood them and maybe even feared them and I have no doubt that he truely believed what he taught. He may have even felt he was doing it out of love. That doesn't make it any less destructive. The Inquisition and the Crusades were carried out from a position of "love".

[ December 30, 2005, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: UMRebel/Bucfan ]

Since you are a Yuck fan and a liberal, i'll go slow.... same rule applies to Poke fans (but in a different language than our native US)...

I do not follow this man's teachings or thoughts becuase I think for myself. That said, anyone who wants to find themselves can feel free to read his work, read family.org, PLAG or whatever other rag they wish. Then make their own decision.

Who am i to say he didnt help people at the same time he hurt some. Gee, sounds like getting through High School for any kid growing up to me (gay or str8).

My basic problem with the thread is that if this was some looney femanazi, liberal, or what not...

You would be labeled as racist, anti-woman, or hateful because you don't share some small crazy view of the world... Yet, the first to complain about these things feel free to do it in return.

Odd, very Odd...

What's that MIB phrase....

Need some help there kids...

While I would not have phrased the title of this thread in the way it was titled, where exactly is the disrespect? Calling the man "Gay hating?" His resume was built upon the thesis that homosexuality was an innate evil and a disorder that could be cured by his therapies. He may have loved his clients very much, but he certainly hated homosexuality. I'll leave determining his feelings for his homosexual son for his biographers. Was it "kicked the bucket" that annoyed people? What if a thread had been titled "Pope finally kicks the bucket?" I would have chuckled. There's nothing inherrently disrespectful in that phrase. It mocks death, but not the dead. There is no single word in that title that glorifies or revels in this man's demise, merely a reporting of fact.

Ms de Blazer claimed to be disrespecting the good doctor. I'm sure she has very little respect for him. I don't have any professional respect for him. I can't imagine why anyone would. However, I cannot see anything in the title or initial post that goes over any line. The man is dead. He was an avowed enemy of the gay community. Will someone step up to take his place? Most probably, but this one is no longer our problem. I hope his last moments were peacefull and painless, but I cannot mourn a man who brought so much pain into the lives he touched.

The gentleman from Minnesota may think he helped any number of people, but I would challenge him to find a single respected study on the subject that supports that claim of help. He was either an evil or grotesquely misguided man and the mental health profession is better off without him in it. The best information we have, even accepting bad studies by reparative therapy proponents, is that a third of the people touched by this actually can change their behavior (not their orientation, their behavior). What's the fallback position for the other two thirds? This isn't oncology where saving 20% of your patients is a major victory. This is mental health. The patients don't go away when the therapy fails.

Phillyfan, God love ya, I don't know who you have me confused with. I am actually conservative, in the true (rather than the neocon) sense, and, according to my friends, am one of the least PC people they know.

I'm not exactly sure why you keep morphing me together with someone else on this thread. I assume it's Ms. de Blazer that I've somehow become inseparably intertwined with in your mind. However, I speak for myself and only myself and have never been accused of being a "looney, feminazi, liberal" by ANYONE who actually knows me.

Though you amuse me you certainly don't need to slow anything down to help me understand. I'm pretty sure that if you were firing on all cylinders with your RPMs in the red zone I would still have to slow down my thought process to understand you. wink

[ December 30, 2005, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: UMRebel/Bucfan ]

I think PhillyFan is referring to Ms.Deblazer as much as anyone.

[ December 30, 2005, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: eddiecat ]

Oh I wasn't aware that MsDeblazer was a "Yucks" fan too. I'm pretty sure that was a clever way of saying Bucfan. If I'm wrong and MsDeblazer is in fact a Yucks fan then Hell, Boom!, Boom!, Boom! welcome aboard the pirate ship! We don't turn away fans even if they are man hatin', femanazi, liberals. I guess we're just not as high class as Philly fans. All are welcome!

Well, the "Yucks" fan part may have been directed more at you but since you didn't start this thread,I am assuming ,and I could be wrong that he is including the distinguished Ms.Deblazer.I'm pretty sure you nor she are
man-haters.No doubt he will clarify as we all wait with baited breath.

[ December 30, 2005, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: eddiecat ]

Well Rebel,

Currently I’m also working on a few “Self Help” books feel free to pick them up…. Under the works are….

Gint and 4-skin fans, Why not bring back concentration camps?

Cure for Poke fans, Close the Borders

All aboard the Tampa Ship (then sink it)

The 25 different ways to spell Kareoke, and other useful spelling tips.

Sense of Humor for Dummies 101

Last one will be located at your local community college, where I have encouraged quite a few to re-enroll to round out their re-education in such things as business and economics in a capitalist society. They offer many classes in the morning, afternoon, AND evening. Quite often, they are more affordable than a university.

As always, just sayin….

Did Mavis Beacon ghost write that one for you?

Although I don't undersand a single thing you just said Phillyfan, I'm sure it was delightful. I have a broad and wonderful sense of humor. It's not that I don't find you humorous, God knows I do, it's just that most of the time I sincerely don't understand what the heck you said. I'll be happy to read your "Sense of Humor for Dummies" self help book as long as you make sure that you supply an English language edition or at least send it with a Hardy Boys decoder ring.

I would LOVE to hear YOUR morsels of knowledge on business and economics in a capitalist society. I have no doubt that that would over stimulate my funnybone. I'm practically rolling on the floor just thinking about it. I'd like to see how it would compare to my model, which by the way I have actually applied very successfully. I'm 38, self-employed and semi-retired but maybe I could use some of your brilliance to go global.

This is really amusing and all, but it's getting a bit silly and off subject so this will be my last off topic post. If you want to send me additional love letters please send them by private message. I'm starting to develope a crush on you. Hugs and Kisses...

[ December 30, 2005, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: UMRebel/Bucfan ]

Is anyone else's heart lightened by the irony of someone who's chief defense when called on disrespecting, condescending to and otherwise mistreating other posters on this board, "Can't you take a joke?" being offended by an irreverent post about a professionally disgraced psychologist's death?

I have a very close friend who is participating in the Exodus program; from what he tells me, he is getting many insights, religious and personal out of the experience. I've told him repeatedly not to expect "full and complete healing" from this process, because, honestly, I think "christianity" is not the panacea for all ills physical and psychological as some evangelicals, and even Catholics, opine in their charming, stubborn but ultimately magical thinking. Spiritual redemption, yes. Quick fix for all your problems, no.

Ultimately, in his case, and previously in my case, the issue came down to a very practical and visceral one: propagation and continuing the family. I can clearly see the appeal that Socarides had to traditionals, who were so by inclination or from rearing, and I think that in the man's work one must factor in the very positive feedback that he received from people who desperately wanted to hear exactly what he was saying. Heck, my mom knows I sleep with men, and she still holds out hope on me having kids. Yes, plural.

Actually, I would have married and, in my awkward way probably managed to crank out a few progeny, and been faithful to the marriage, but the stark demands and lack of compromise of the culture wars made such a detente of the genders anathema. My ex fiancee still thinks I'm "going through a phase" and every other year sends me letters wanting to "end this nonsense". Thought she would have moved on by now. I sure have.

I'm hope you realize that your sexuality has nothing to do with the viability of your sperm. You may have religious or familial reasons for not wanting to have a child outside of marriage and that is fine. But being gay has nothing to do with having children. My son will attest to that. He's a great kid and every bit as well adjusted as his friends who's parents are married. This marriage requirement only seems to be held against men. Most women, neither gay nor straight, don't see marriage as necessary for having a child. I, once again, think it makes more sense to explain to gay men that their are options for them to have children without putting a square peg in a round hole which is seldomly healthy for anyone involved. I wish your friend and you the best but I hope your friend doesn't find himself at some point in the future with a wife and kids and an inability to cope with his situation. At that point he will have made a decision that affects more than just him. Then he'll probably wish people like me were around to tell him these things.

This is probably the crux of our difference of opinion on the issue. I personally don't consider my sexuality a physical or psychological ill from which I need Spiritual redemption. I'm sorry if your sexuality is a Paulian "thorn in your side". Maybe consider talking to a spiritual leader who has a different opinion. It may register with you, it may not. I would suggest that you check out www.godmademegay.com It is written by an straight, married, elderly, Baptist minister and is extremely well researched and informative. You might want to share this with your friend as well. This man has nothing to prove and went into his research from a totally detached perspective, aside from his faith, from the subject matter. At least get information from both sides of the issue if you want to be fully informed.

[ December 30, 2005, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: UMRebel/Bucfan ]

J, you are so correct,sir!

[ December 30, 2005, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: eddiecat ]

I was not joking at all at the utter two faced double standard of the original post.