I haven't posted in awhile. I probably shouldn't remind everyone who I am in that I sensed a little tension in some of the threads I created. However, I've been trying to put some things I read about here into practice. I'm not sure exactly why, but I feel very comfortable on this board, and I'm glad there's a new category, Real Life, where I can post some of my meanderings.
Anyway, since I was last here, I've been more open with a few people. I've had extensive conversations about my gayness with my best friend, my mother (who is not, oddly, my best friend), and my pastor. I'm not sure if that means I continue to be "quietly gay," but, frankly, there aren't that many people in my life to come out to.
After I stopped posting on this board, I decided to return to the "reparative therapy" paradigm, so I joined one of their boards. It was helpful for me to take a look at that again, though I found myself frustrated. I don't sign on with the idea that it's the worst thing in the world. It has one advantage, IMHO, over the larger gay community in that it admits a certain amount of nuance and fluidity in sexual orientation. You're not simply stamped either totally gay or straight from the moment of conception. There is, I think, a certain interplay between my environment and my genetic tendencies which have combined to make me what I am, and, probably, to a certain extent, I could perhaps try to lead myself in one direction or another.
That being said, I felt that there was a deep, underlying sickness in the reparative community which I no longer buy into. In order to undergo reparative therapy, you have to believe that homosexuality is the result of damage. It might be damage from your family, or from you genes, but it is damage. It is not natural, and it was not meant to happen. Your only healthy option is to work to change it, and if you can't change it, to at least accept it as damage, but never as something natural and good.
While I think it is healthy to build up my masculine image by doing masculine things and having masculine friends, I don't think it's good for me to pursue that because I believe I am damaged in some way. Plus, I don't think becoming more masculine will make me less gay. I hope it makes me stronger, more rational, more centered, more stable, etc., but I suspect I will end up a strong, rational, centered, stable homosexual rather than a married father of two (as seems to be the picture of a successful reparative therapy).
While I don't see myself as wanting to change my orientation, I do like the idea of building up my masculinity. It is hard to see that joining in the gay club scene will help me with that goal, so I haven't gone out to any clubs. I wonder how other men on this board have pursued a greater sense of their masculinity, and if there is anything in the gay community that contributes to this kind of goal.
Anyway, here I am again. I hope to be a little less controversial this time. As I say, I've looked at other message boards, but this feels the best. And I'll have more to say about sports, since, in my pursuit of masculinity, I've joined my church softball team. My goal this season is to hit a single.
Full Version: I'm back, and I'm a little more out
Welcome back. I wondered what happened to you. Sounds like you've done some really good homework while you were gone (and I can't believe I'm saying that about a reparative therapy board). Sounds as if you found some perspective in your life. I really hope it works out for you. Take your time.
Good luck hitting that single this season! A lot of us are rooting for you.
Good luck hitting that single this season! A lot of us are rooting for you.
Hey, welcome back. In the past I've also been active on reparative therapy boards, and I was also eventually driven away by the relentless harping on just the one aspect of our personality. Then again, I did meet my closest friend there, and got real insight that *everybody* is screwed up some way.
What I find positive about reparative therapy is its emphasis on building up my sense of masculinity by doing masculine things and making masculine friends. I think that I have always felt less than masculine because I have homosexual feelings. I felt I had to get rid of those feelings in order to be fully male.
Because I'm gay, I've never allowed myself to participate in sports, go hunting, join the military, etc., because I always thought I wouldn't be man enough. So, in that sense, reparative therapy makes sense, becuase I do think I need to rebuild my masculinity. But I don't think that I will necessarily end up heterosexual as a result of becoming more masculine.
My observation of the visible gay community--and this ia an observation, not a criticism--is that it doesn't have any mechanism for a man who wants to work on becoming a man among men. If malenessis defined as strength, stability, rationality, compassion, loyalty, etc., I'm just not seeing it in the gay media or clubs. I'd like to know if there is a gay equivalent to Wild At Heart or Iron John (books popular in the reparative therapy movement).
My particular goals as a man don't have to be anyone else's, and I support whatever path men want to take. But is it possible to pursue a greater sense of masculinity and participate in the visible gay world? Or am I stuck patching together the good I find in reparative therapy and the gay community?
Because I'm gay, I've never allowed myself to participate in sports, go hunting, join the military, etc., because I always thought I wouldn't be man enough. So, in that sense, reparative therapy makes sense, becuase I do think I need to rebuild my masculinity. But I don't think that I will necessarily end up heterosexual as a result of becoming more masculine.
My observation of the visible gay community--and this ia an observation, not a criticism--is that it doesn't have any mechanism for a man who wants to work on becoming a man among men. If malenessis defined as strength, stability, rationality, compassion, loyalty, etc., I'm just not seeing it in the gay media or clubs. I'd like to know if there is a gay equivalent to Wild At Heart or Iron John (books popular in the reparative therapy movement).
My particular goals as a man don't have to be anyone else's, and I support whatever path men want to take. But is it possible to pursue a greater sense of masculinity and participate in the visible gay world? Or am I stuck patching together the good I find in reparative therapy and the gay community?
You aren't damaged. Homosexuality - sexuality of all hues - is intrinsic, if sometimes fluid as well. But homosexuality is not unnatural: it is documented in at least 450 species, and more and more studies show that sexuality is at least heavily influenced by genetics, whatever other forces may come into play.
I can never remember not being homosexual, from pre-pubescent crushes, circa five or six years old. I suppressed it for a long time, because I at first sensed, and later knew, that society was against it - but that does not make it either unnatural or wrong. (My brother is left-handed; when he was in school that was somehow "wrong" and he was trained to do things right-handed; as a result he is no "no-handed" and somewhat handicapped for things like writing.)
"Reparative" therapy can deliver some of the goods. We know that people can be scared, bullied, even tortured into acting virtually any way we want them to. But one needs to ask if that means they are being "natural" or "better" in ay way that actually has meaning? Or is the meaning perhaps only that such changes make the majority feel better about themselves? And that raises the issue, "Whose life is it you are leading?"
Most responsible psychiatric communities worldwide, now say that such therapies are capable of doing great harm. Even the most successful "reparative" programs usually say that while the can change behavior, the cannot make one desire females. Some bisexuals may be able to re-focus their emotional lives toward the opposite gender, but the question must be asked: "If a person cannot be made to love women, is he supposed then to spend his live loving no one at all?"
Humans grow through companionship and love. partnering with someone teaches you an infinite number of things, because the partnership is too precious to risk, because the other is there to knock off the rough edges, make you learn, comfort you, support you. To deny that to anyone is a very grave step, because it denies a person's individuality and dignity, and because it slams the door on the most common and wholesome avenue of growth open to all humans.
What you make of your life is your own business, and it sounds as if you have done much thinking. Be careful not to close your life down, or to turn your back on love and growth. In the end, you must live your own life - just be sure that it is YOUR life you are leading.
I'll attach a good reading list, below.
Nat
Recommended Reading- History, autobiography, biography ,religion, etc.
Note: some of these titles are no longer in print, but I have been able to scare up copies on the internet. Amazon often gives sources for second-hand copies. All of these are worth reading, but I have put the ones I believe especially useful in bold print.
Leroy Aarons, Prayers for Bobby, Harper, 1995 – The deeply moving story of a fundamentalist Christian mother coming to terms with here son’s homosexuality after his suicide.
Gary Atkins, Gay Seattle, Stories of Exile and Belonging, University of Washington Press, 2003. Highly readable: the story of gay pride and progress in Seattle since 1890, but a microcosm of gay history across the country. Hard to put down.
Bruce Bagemihl, Biological Exuberance, St. Martin’s Press, 1999 – Homosexuality in nature observed and exhaustively documented.
Howard H. Bess, Pastor, I am Gay, Palmer Publishing, 1995 – A very readable look at issues surrounding homosexuality by an American Baptist Minister. Probably the easiest source for broader examination of the "troublesome verses". Highly recommended.
John Boswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality, University of Chicago Press, 1980 - Highly scholarly and deeply notated; the study of linguistics and Biblical texts, and a history of the relatively "new" phenomenon of anti-homosexuality within the Church and society. Fundamentally important reading.
Fairchild & Hayward, Now That You Know, Harvest, 1989. A good book for parents whose children have come out to them. Answers a lot of basic questions.
Robb Formann Dew, The Family Heart, Addison-Wesley, 1994 – Well-written account of the growth of a family through coming to terms with the homosexuality of one of their sons. Highly Recommended.
Stephen E. Fowl, Engaging Scripture, Blackwell. 1998. A distinctively theological interpretation of scripture, as opposed to a subjective or personal one. Heavy, but most valuable.
Daniel A. Helminiak, What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality, Alamo Square Press, 1994 – Examination of Biblical texts.
Ann Heron, Two Teenagers in Twenty, Alyson, 1994 – Stories of twenty gay teenagers.
Richard Holloway, Dancing on the Edge, Fount/Harper Collins (UK), 1997 – Tremendously exciting look at core Christian beliefs in the post-modern age.
Richard Holloway, Godless Morality, Canongate (UK) 1999 – Presents a superb & challenging way of examining inherited dogma. Highly recommended as a basis for further examination and discussion.
Kaufman & Raphael, Coming out of Shame, Doubleday, 1996 – Written by two psychologists. Very affirming and useful in the coming out process – or even after. Recommended.
Eric Marcus, The Male Couple’s Guide, Harper Perennial, 1988, 1992 – Practical advice. Any of Marcus’ books are worth looking for and reading: Is It a Choice?, Harper San Francisco, 1999 – answers to 300 of the most frequently asked questions about gays and lesbians. Together Forever, Anchor 1998 – narratives of gay and lesbian long-term partners: how they met, how they build a life together.
John J. McNeill, Freedom, Glorious Freedom, Beacon Press, 1995 – McNeil, a former Jesuit, offers some of the most inspiring directions for gay and lesbian lives to take, in deeply spiritual and very clear writing. This was a very important book in my own coming to terms with spirituality as a homosexual Christian.
John J. McNeil, The Church and the Homosexual, Beacon, 1976
Neil Miller, Out in the Past, Vintage Books, 1995 – gay and Lesbian history from 1869 to the present.
Eugene F. Rogers, Sexuality and the Christian Body, Blackwell, 1999 – A scholarly and very challenging examination of Christian attitudes towards homosexuality. Cannot be too highly recommended.
A. L. Rouse, Homosexuals in History, Barnes & Noble, 1977 – Useful history
Colin Spencer, Homosexuality in History, Harcourt Brace, 1995 – Useful reference for historical questions and research.
John Shelby Spong, Living in Sin?, Harper, 1990 – Highly readable, thoughtful and at times provocative meditation on Christian sexual ethics. Highly recommended whether one agrees or not, as a starting point for reexamination of a broad range of issues.
Shilts, Randy, Conduct Unbecoming, St. Martin’s Press, 1993 – History of gays in the military. See also, Shilts, The Mayor of Castro Street, and And the Band Played On.
Andrew Sullivan, Love Undetectable, Vintage, 1999 – A conservative and often inspiring reflection on homosexuality from a Catholic point of view.
Michael Vasey, Strangers and Friends, Hodder & Stoughton (UK), 1995 "A new exploration of homosexuality and the Bible." Very scholarly be most readable; highly recommended.
Novels
Note: Some of these are not masterpieces, but each in its own way rewards reading. In the process of coming out – and after! – it is valuable to read fiction which reflects what we experience in our own lives.
Forman Brown (Richard Meeker), Better Angel, Greenberg, 1995 – Autobiography disguised as fiction. Forman Brown writes of living a gay life with dignity between the wars. Recommended.
Todd D. Brown, Entries from a Hot Pink Notebook, Washington Square Press, 1995. Teen coming-out story.
E. M. Forster, Maurice, various editions (and video). Not published until after Forster’s death, and somewhat dated in its social conventions; nonetheless, it’s one I re-read from time to time. A gay novel by on of English literatures minor greats.
Brent Hartinger, Geography Club, Harper Tempest, 2003. Well-written story about coming out, friendship and finding courage and support in high-school.
Alex Jeffers, Safe as Houses, Faber & Faber, 1995. Wonderful, at times with odd but wonderful details, about life, partnering, raising kids, positive. One I re-read from time to time with great pleasure.
Armistead Maupin, Tales of the City, Harper Perennial, 1978, many subsequent editions. San Fransisco in the ‘70’s. A hilarious romp. Read it, and the sequels for good fun. The perfect airplane or vacation book.
Eatham Mordden, How Long Has This Been Going On?, Villard, 1995. Well worth looking for. One I like to re-read: fictionalized history of gay life in America from post-WWII to now.
Jamie O’Neill, At Swim, Two Boys, Scribner, 2003. Don’t ask – just go get it. The Irish dialect takes a little getting used to, but the novel pulls you in. Deeply moving, good history, multi-faceted, weird, wonderful.
Jim Provenzano, Pins, Myrmidude Press, 1999. Teen coming-out book centered on wrestling. Positive, well-written. Good read.
Mary Renault, The Charioteer¸ Pantheon, 1959. OP, but worth looking for a used copy. One of the first out gay novels, finely written with nuanced characters working on finding eachother during World War Two. Careful reading is rewarding. I re-read this every few years. A must.
Mary Renault, Fire From Heaven, Longman, 1969, but many subsequent editions. The first of the Alexander the Great novels Renault wrote (followed by The Persian Boy and Funeral Games). The homosexual - in this context one can’t say “gay” - element is a strong, under-stated undercurrent. Good history, brilliantly written, a true classic. (Also recommended: The Last of the Wine.)
Alex Sanchez, Rainbow Boys, Simon & Schuster, 2001. Well-written teen coming-out novel, aimed largely at younger readers. Followed by Rainbow High.
Mike Seabrook, Out of Bounds, Gay Men’s Press, 1992 – A novel about a gay cricket player. Seabrook writes a good, plain story with clearly-drawn conflicts and characters. Not great, but it’s a pity not more gay-oriented writers can construct a book so well.
Patricia Nell Warren, Front Runner, Wildcat, 1974 (but many subsequent editions). Ten million copies in eight languages says it all. Basic library material. In places just a bit dated, but I found this deeply moving the first time I read it, and still do. Among many other attributes, Warren can make you feel the sports aspects of the book. Read it.
I can never remember not being homosexual, from pre-pubescent crushes, circa five or six years old. I suppressed it for a long time, because I at first sensed, and later knew, that society was against it - but that does not make it either unnatural or wrong. (My brother is left-handed; when he was in school that was somehow "wrong" and he was trained to do things right-handed; as a result he is no "no-handed" and somewhat handicapped for things like writing.)
"Reparative" therapy can deliver some of the goods. We know that people can be scared, bullied, even tortured into acting virtually any way we want them to. But one needs to ask if that means they are being "natural" or "better" in ay way that actually has meaning? Or is the meaning perhaps only that such changes make the majority feel better about themselves? And that raises the issue, "Whose life is it you are leading?"
Most responsible psychiatric communities worldwide, now say that such therapies are capable of doing great harm. Even the most successful "reparative" programs usually say that while the can change behavior, the cannot make one desire females. Some bisexuals may be able to re-focus their emotional lives toward the opposite gender, but the question must be asked: "If a person cannot be made to love women, is he supposed then to spend his live loving no one at all?"
Humans grow through companionship and love. partnering with someone teaches you an infinite number of things, because the partnership is too precious to risk, because the other is there to knock off the rough edges, make you learn, comfort you, support you. To deny that to anyone is a very grave step, because it denies a person's individuality and dignity, and because it slams the door on the most common and wholesome avenue of growth open to all humans.
What you make of your life is your own business, and it sounds as if you have done much thinking. Be careful not to close your life down, or to turn your back on love and growth. In the end, you must live your own life - just be sure that it is YOUR life you are leading.
I'll attach a good reading list, below.
Nat
Recommended Reading- History, autobiography, biography ,religion, etc.
Note: some of these titles are no longer in print, but I have been able to scare up copies on the internet. Amazon often gives sources for second-hand copies. All of these are worth reading, but I have put the ones I believe especially useful in bold print.
Leroy Aarons, Prayers for Bobby, Harper, 1995 – The deeply moving story of a fundamentalist Christian mother coming to terms with here son’s homosexuality after his suicide.
Gary Atkins, Gay Seattle, Stories of Exile and Belonging, University of Washington Press, 2003. Highly readable: the story of gay pride and progress in Seattle since 1890, but a microcosm of gay history across the country. Hard to put down.
Bruce Bagemihl, Biological Exuberance, St. Martin’s Press, 1999 – Homosexuality in nature observed and exhaustively documented.
Howard H. Bess, Pastor, I am Gay, Palmer Publishing, 1995 – A very readable look at issues surrounding homosexuality by an American Baptist Minister. Probably the easiest source for broader examination of the "troublesome verses". Highly recommended.
John Boswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality, University of Chicago Press, 1980 - Highly scholarly and deeply notated; the study of linguistics and Biblical texts, and a history of the relatively "new" phenomenon of anti-homosexuality within the Church and society. Fundamentally important reading.
Fairchild & Hayward, Now That You Know, Harvest, 1989. A good book for parents whose children have come out to them. Answers a lot of basic questions.
Robb Formann Dew, The Family Heart, Addison-Wesley, 1994 – Well-written account of the growth of a family through coming to terms with the homosexuality of one of their sons. Highly Recommended.
Stephen E. Fowl, Engaging Scripture, Blackwell. 1998. A distinctively theological interpretation of scripture, as opposed to a subjective or personal one. Heavy, but most valuable.
Daniel A. Helminiak, What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality, Alamo Square Press, 1994 – Examination of Biblical texts.
Ann Heron, Two Teenagers in Twenty, Alyson, 1994 – Stories of twenty gay teenagers.
Richard Holloway, Dancing on the Edge, Fount/Harper Collins (UK), 1997 – Tremendously exciting look at core Christian beliefs in the post-modern age.
Richard Holloway, Godless Morality, Canongate (UK) 1999 – Presents a superb & challenging way of examining inherited dogma. Highly recommended as a basis for further examination and discussion.
Kaufman & Raphael, Coming out of Shame, Doubleday, 1996 – Written by two psychologists. Very affirming and useful in the coming out process – or even after. Recommended.
Eric Marcus, The Male Couple’s Guide, Harper Perennial, 1988, 1992 – Practical advice. Any of Marcus’ books are worth looking for and reading: Is It a Choice?, Harper San Francisco, 1999 – answers to 300 of the most frequently asked questions about gays and lesbians. Together Forever, Anchor 1998 – narratives of gay and lesbian long-term partners: how they met, how they build a life together.
John J. McNeill, Freedom, Glorious Freedom, Beacon Press, 1995 – McNeil, a former Jesuit, offers some of the most inspiring directions for gay and lesbian lives to take, in deeply spiritual and very clear writing. This was a very important book in my own coming to terms with spirituality as a homosexual Christian.
John J. McNeil, The Church and the Homosexual, Beacon, 1976
Neil Miller, Out in the Past, Vintage Books, 1995 – gay and Lesbian history from 1869 to the present.
Eugene F. Rogers, Sexuality and the Christian Body, Blackwell, 1999 – A scholarly and very challenging examination of Christian attitudes towards homosexuality. Cannot be too highly recommended.
A. L. Rouse, Homosexuals in History, Barnes & Noble, 1977 – Useful history
Colin Spencer, Homosexuality in History, Harcourt Brace, 1995 – Useful reference for historical questions and research.
John Shelby Spong, Living in Sin?, Harper, 1990 – Highly readable, thoughtful and at times provocative meditation on Christian sexual ethics. Highly recommended whether one agrees or not, as a starting point for reexamination of a broad range of issues.
Shilts, Randy, Conduct Unbecoming, St. Martin’s Press, 1993 – History of gays in the military. See also, Shilts, The Mayor of Castro Street, and And the Band Played On.
Andrew Sullivan, Love Undetectable, Vintage, 1999 – A conservative and often inspiring reflection on homosexuality from a Catholic point of view.
Michael Vasey, Strangers and Friends, Hodder & Stoughton (UK), 1995 "A new exploration of homosexuality and the Bible." Very scholarly be most readable; highly recommended.
Novels
Note: Some of these are not masterpieces, but each in its own way rewards reading. In the process of coming out – and after! – it is valuable to read fiction which reflects what we experience in our own lives.
Forman Brown (Richard Meeker), Better Angel, Greenberg, 1995 – Autobiography disguised as fiction. Forman Brown writes of living a gay life with dignity between the wars. Recommended.
Todd D. Brown, Entries from a Hot Pink Notebook, Washington Square Press, 1995. Teen coming-out story.
E. M. Forster, Maurice, various editions (and video). Not published until after Forster’s death, and somewhat dated in its social conventions; nonetheless, it’s one I re-read from time to time. A gay novel by on of English literatures minor greats.
Brent Hartinger, Geography Club, Harper Tempest, 2003. Well-written story about coming out, friendship and finding courage and support in high-school.
Alex Jeffers, Safe as Houses, Faber & Faber, 1995. Wonderful, at times with odd but wonderful details, about life, partnering, raising kids, positive. One I re-read from time to time with great pleasure.
Armistead Maupin, Tales of the City, Harper Perennial, 1978, many subsequent editions. San Fransisco in the ‘70’s. A hilarious romp. Read it, and the sequels for good fun. The perfect airplane or vacation book.
Eatham Mordden, How Long Has This Been Going On?, Villard, 1995. Well worth looking for. One I like to re-read: fictionalized history of gay life in America from post-WWII to now.
Jamie O’Neill, At Swim, Two Boys, Scribner, 2003. Don’t ask – just go get it. The Irish dialect takes a little getting used to, but the novel pulls you in. Deeply moving, good history, multi-faceted, weird, wonderful.
Jim Provenzano, Pins, Myrmidude Press, 1999. Teen coming-out book centered on wrestling. Positive, well-written. Good read.
Mary Renault, The Charioteer¸ Pantheon, 1959. OP, but worth looking for a used copy. One of the first out gay novels, finely written with nuanced characters working on finding eachother during World War Two. Careful reading is rewarding. I re-read this every few years. A must.
Mary Renault, Fire From Heaven, Longman, 1969, but many subsequent editions. The first of the Alexander the Great novels Renault wrote (followed by The Persian Boy and Funeral Games). The homosexual - in this context one can’t say “gay” - element is a strong, under-stated undercurrent. Good history, brilliantly written, a true classic. (Also recommended: The Last of the Wine.)
Alex Sanchez, Rainbow Boys, Simon & Schuster, 2001. Well-written teen coming-out novel, aimed largely at younger readers. Followed by Rainbow High.
Mike Seabrook, Out of Bounds, Gay Men’s Press, 1992 – A novel about a gay cricket player. Seabrook writes a good, plain story with clearly-drawn conflicts and characters. Not great, but it’s a pity not more gay-oriented writers can construct a book so well.
Patricia Nell Warren, Front Runner, Wildcat, 1974 (but many subsequent editions). Ten million copies in eight languages says it all. Basic library material. In places just a bit dated, but I found this deeply moving the first time I read it, and still do. Among many other attributes, Warren can make you feel the sports aspects of the book. Read it.
Thanks Nat. I enjoyed your column. 
Skjpm, I'm glad that you're now seeing that our sexuality is an infintisimal part of who we are as a person. And it's nothing to be ashamed of. Those that have issues with it are not dealing with their own issues. Good for you for coming to terms with one of yours.
[ June 05, 2005, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: TommyC84 ]
Skjpm, I'm glad that you're now seeing that our sexuality is an infintisimal part of who we are as a person. And it's nothing to be ashamed of. Those that have issues with it are not dealing with their own issues. Good for you for coming to terms with one of yours.
[ June 05, 2005, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: TommyC84 ]
Thanks for the booklist. There's a lot on there I've already read, so it looks like they all fit into the direction I'm going. As an Episcopalian, I particularly appreciate the work of John Spong.
I think that I have had conflict because I have seen two goals as mutually exclusive: becoming a man, and coming to terms with being gay. As long as I admitted I was gay, I couldn't be a man--being a man meant doing everything I could to stop being gay.
I want to continue to work on building my masculinity, but no longer with the belief that the more masculine I become, the less gay I will be. I think I do need to repair the wound that my father created by abandoning me. And I think I am overly close to my mother. I don't think this family model makes you gay, but it certainly accelerates the process!
By becoming more masculine, I can become more stable, more accountable, more rational, more powerful, and thus be able to make better choices about the relationships I want to be in. But I still want to find the right man, not the right woman. And I might want to raise a family--again, with a man.
I hope to be moving out of the unhealthy world of Apartment Zero into the world of healthy relationships as a man among men. I'm hoping to find more masculine-affirming resources in the gay community.
I think that I have had conflict because I have seen two goals as mutually exclusive: becoming a man, and coming to terms with being gay. As long as I admitted I was gay, I couldn't be a man--being a man meant doing everything I could to stop being gay.
I want to continue to work on building my masculinity, but no longer with the belief that the more masculine I become, the less gay I will be. I think I do need to repair the wound that my father created by abandoning me. And I think I am overly close to my mother. I don't think this family model makes you gay, but it certainly accelerates the process!
By becoming more masculine, I can become more stable, more accountable, more rational, more powerful, and thus be able to make better choices about the relationships I want to be in. But I still want to find the right man, not the right woman. And I might want to raise a family--again, with a man.
I hope to be moving out of the unhealthy world of Apartment Zero into the world of healthy relationships as a man among men. I'm hoping to find more masculine-affirming resources in the gay community.
Please don’t take offence by my frank comments but skjpm you issue has been and still is a question of self-love or self esteem which you are now referring to as developing you masculine side. You can’t be a solid responsible man until you believe in yourself and feel you are worthy of the role. The concept of masculinity is a vague one at best and very culturally driven. Are Argentine men effeminate because they kiss? Are French, Italian and Spanish men effeminate because they have a sense of fashion, fine foods, and many of them are great cooks? Does that make them less masculine? Is a guy less masculine because he is sensitive?
You are masculine because you have a penis and your body produces testosterone. Go hunting, fishing or play sports because you want to not because you believe it will make you more masculine. As for the qualities you state:
From what little I’ve read about you in this thread it sounds like you bought into the concept that gay men are half men, incapable of the qualities that society may romanticize in the good father, good husband role. Now you are beginning to feel that maybe we can be both gay and a strong loving person. Most men (and women) straight and gay struggle to some extent or another with issues of confidence, self worth and self-esteem. Gay men probably have a higher incident of poor self-esteem because of the shit that a homophobic society serves them. Just read “frustrated coaches” thread to get some idea of the hole some have to dig themselves out of to be on a level playing field with their straight companions. It sounds like your abusive past put you in one of these holes.
Ironically in my family, my straight brother has far more issues of self-esteem than I do. I sometimes wonder if his issues don’t go all the way back to his infant days when my mom had a cardiac arrest while she was still breast feeding him. She was in the hospital for six weeks and back then they did not allow children to visit. I think that created a fear of abandonment and explains some of the lack of trust he feels in social situations.
So I would suggest changing the word masculine for self-love. Because learning to fish, hunt or fight a war is not going to make you a more loyal, honest, loving, compassionate person of high integrity. Now it may be that masculine men turn you on sexual more the effeminate guys do. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you are able to recognize that just because one guy is more “straight-acting” than another does not automatically mean he processes the qualities that make him a move loving human being.
Now I’d like to end with an amusing story to put this whole masculine thing in perspective. I remember as a little kid how my dad would cross his legs when sitting and reading a book or watching television. Being the little boy that wanted to be just like his dad I started doing the same thing. Fast forward about twenty years later and my sister is telling me a story about how surprised one of her female friends were to discover I was gay. “I never suspected it’, she says, “then again he does cross his legs.”
[ June 05, 2005, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Thom ]
You are masculine because you have a penis and your body produces testosterone. Go hunting, fishing or play sports because you want to not because you believe it will make you more masculine. As for the qualities you state:
QUOTE
skjpm:
. If malenessis defined as strength, stability, rationality, compassion, loyalty, etc.,
I would expect my female friends to offer me the same qualities. These are good human qualities that one can develop with a high self-esteem regardless of how much testosterone or estrogen one’s body produces. In fact I have found many men who think they are so hyper-masculine lack these courageous qualities. One friend of mine told me how macho his father was but when the family house was shaken by an earthquake he was out of the house before anyone. His mom ran around the house alone gathering the children. . If malenessis defined as strength, stability, rationality, compassion, loyalty, etc.,
From what little I’ve read about you in this thread it sounds like you bought into the concept that gay men are half men, incapable of the qualities that society may romanticize in the good father, good husband role. Now you are beginning to feel that maybe we can be both gay and a strong loving person. Most men (and women) straight and gay struggle to some extent or another with issues of confidence, self worth and self-esteem. Gay men probably have a higher incident of poor self-esteem because of the shit that a homophobic society serves them. Just read “frustrated coaches” thread to get some idea of the hole some have to dig themselves out of to be on a level playing field with their straight companions. It sounds like your abusive past put you in one of these holes.
Ironically in my family, my straight brother has far more issues of self-esteem than I do. I sometimes wonder if his issues don’t go all the way back to his infant days when my mom had a cardiac arrest while she was still breast feeding him. She was in the hospital for six weeks and back then they did not allow children to visit. I think that created a fear of abandonment and explains some of the lack of trust he feels in social situations.
So I would suggest changing the word masculine for self-love. Because learning to fish, hunt or fight a war is not going to make you a more loyal, honest, loving, compassionate person of high integrity. Now it may be that masculine men turn you on sexual more the effeminate guys do. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you are able to recognize that just because one guy is more “straight-acting” than another does not automatically mean he processes the qualities that make him a move loving human being.
Now I’d like to end with an amusing story to put this whole masculine thing in perspective. I remember as a little kid how my dad would cross his legs when sitting and reading a book or watching television. Being the little boy that wanted to be just like his dad I started doing the same thing. Fast forward about twenty years later and my sister is telling me a story about how surprised one of her female friends were to discover I was gay. “I never suspected it’, she says, “then again he does cross his legs.”
[ June 05, 2005, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Thom ]
skjpm, just wondering, are you effeminate?
Develop your "masculine" side as much as it really interests you and feels like a good direction. You don't have to be "masculine" - just yourself - and that's a lifelong process for all of us.
Nat
Nat
I really try not to be. I don't think people see me as effeminate, per se, but I have kind of a wierd voice--I sound like a cross between Lemony Snicket and Sean McFarlane. I have no idea where that accent came from, since I am from the heart of the Great Plains. I'm also fat, and unfortunately, my pecs tend to turn into breasts--which is something I inherited from my father. So I avoid things where I have to be shirtless. I've been told I have an effeminate walk. And I play piano, teach English, and enjoy art. Any questions?
But this is not how I see myself. I agree with reparative therapy to this extent--since I grew up without a father, a brother who hated me, and was raised by women, I didn't have much of a chance to develop my masculinity. I was never encouraged in sports.
Hunting is a big deal in these parts, and I suppose that's why I see it as the union card to the men's club. Driving around Nebraska, I see lots of trucks with duck or deer stickers in the window, and I wish I were part of that world. It's difficult to imagine how I will get there considering my shape, my interests, and my orientation. But that's how I see myself, whether or not the world sees me that way.
Other men might not have these kind of goals, and that's OK. But I wish I could be both comfortably masculine and comfortably gay.
Also, I am aware that women can be strong, stable, powerful, etc. It's not so much those particular qualities, it's a kind of energy that goes along with being a man. I can tell when a guy has that energy, and I really like being around that, and I wish I had more of it. According to reparative therapy, if I had more of it, I wouldn't be gay. But I think I just want more of it, even if it doesn't change my orientation.
But this is not how I see myself. I agree with reparative therapy to this extent--since I grew up without a father, a brother who hated me, and was raised by women, I didn't have much of a chance to develop my masculinity. I was never encouraged in sports.
Hunting is a big deal in these parts, and I suppose that's why I see it as the union card to the men's club. Driving around Nebraska, I see lots of trucks with duck or deer stickers in the window, and I wish I were part of that world. It's difficult to imagine how I will get there considering my shape, my interests, and my orientation. But that's how I see myself, whether or not the world sees me that way.
Other men might not have these kind of goals, and that's OK. But I wish I could be both comfortably masculine and comfortably gay.
Also, I am aware that women can be strong, stable, powerful, etc. It's not so much those particular qualities, it's a kind of energy that goes along with being a man. I can tell when a guy has that energy, and I really like being around that, and I wish I had more of it. According to reparative therapy, if I had more of it, I wouldn't be gay. But I think I just want more of it, even if it doesn't change my orientation.
I have read this thread a couple of times and in all honesty I think your reparatoive therapy has done as much if not more damage to you than anything that ever happened in your family. First off I firmly believe that homosexuality is just another part of the genetic lottery, like being tall, having blue eyes or red hair. Also as it occurs in nature I see no reason for it not to be natural in the human species. I was raised to believe we were all created in God's image and since God doesnt make mistakes, I am the way He made me.
I do think your issues stem from self-esteem issues, and that may well be part of your families contribution. If you have weight issues and want to change that, do what everyone else does. Change your diet and exercise. If hunting and fishing interests you then thats fine but dont do it because you think it will make your more masculine or not-gay cause it won't. You are who you are and according to you , you're a gay man. This is what you need to come to terms with because as the saying goes you have to love yourself before anyone else will.
I do think your issues stem from self-esteem issues, and that may well be part of your families contribution. If you have weight issues and want to change that, do what everyone else does. Change your diet and exercise. If hunting and fishing interests you then thats fine but dont do it because you think it will make your more masculine or not-gay cause it won't. You are who you are and according to you , you're a gay man. This is what you need to come to terms with because as the saying goes you have to love yourself before anyone else will.
I agree that self-esteem is a huge issue for me. It's odd: nothing that I do well--like teach a class or write a song--really makes me feel that good about myself. But when I succeed at something masculine--like the time I caught a fish, or the day I caught a ball--I feel childishly proud. There's something about being successful in the man's realm that makes me feel good about myself.
Well I wish you luck in your quest for whatever it is you are really looking for. I would suggest that you seek out a reputable therapist, and by reputable I mean one who understands that you cannot change sexual orientation but you can help someone come to terms with it.
Teaching well is very important! A good class is something to be proud of. But catching a fish is good too, and the more so as it's a "new" accomplishment.
Congratulations on the steps you're taking!
Nat
Congratulations on the steps you're taking!
Nat
skjpm, welcome back. Dude, if you were looking to fit into the gay bar scene (the most ill-fitting subculture of the gay community), I'd be very concerned about you. The bar scene, in my opinion, is anything but normal. As for trying to develop your masculinity, I hope you get what you are working for. I've never questioned my sexuality (seeing it as normal and natural) or masculinity and I've always been accepted as I am and I consider myself to be very masculine. Anyway, I hope you find the happiness you are searching for.
QUOTE
skjpm:
I agree that self-esteem is a huge issue for me. It's odd: nothing that I do well--like teach a class or write a song--really makes me feel that good about myself. But when I succeed at something masculine--like the time I caught a fish, or the day I caught a ball--I feel childishly proud. There's something about being successful in the man's realm that makes me feel good about myself.
I can understand this point. As your self-esteem increases you will value your true talents. But on this particular quest you need to feel as though you’re as good as any straight man. If they catch fish or fly balls than damn it, you can too. I agree that self-esteem is a huge issue for me. It's odd: nothing that I do well--like teach a class or write a song--really makes me feel that good about myself. But when I succeed at something masculine--like the time I caught a fish, or the day I caught a ball--I feel childishly proud. There's something about being successful in the man's realm that makes me feel good about myself.
Beyond the self esteem issues, I see your quest for masculinity as wanting to develop a new attitude. Any of the athletes here can tell you that while talent is a must, you have to have the right attitude to win in sports or life. As a kid I was very athletic but also skinny and a somewhat reserve. Everyone told me I should try out for track when I was in junior high school. The coach was a former football player and looked at me the day I showed up for try outs with a “what the f**k are you doing here” attitude. In HS I didn’t bother to try out for either track or X-country until the P.E. coach told me the team needed me. I won a lot of races after that and was faster than any of the guys the Junior H.S. coach chose for that team over me. If fact we had one of the top teams in the state by my senior year.
The important point of this story is, the first coach made me feel unworthy and I let him. So when I went to try outs I felt lethargic and depressed. The next coach told me the team needed me so I felt proud and strong. We can’t go through life, however, depending on the kindness of coaches. We have to find that strength within us.
Still, I think developing a winning attitude is not a masculine trait. It is however, honorable and sexy. I find it as sexy in women as men. I love watching women kick ass in sports.
BTW, I would suggest you develop a good exercise régime. It is now only a natural anti-depressant that will do tremendous good for your self-esteem but it is also just a healthy thing to do.
[ June 05, 2005, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Thom ]
Yes, I think an exercise routine might be a good idea, since I'm exhausted from standing up in right field for 7 innings! I think that because I don't believe I'm man enough, I don't see myself in a man's body. I do think a lot of this has to do with self-esteem. But I have change from the idea that I can build my self-esteem by becoming less gay, which was sort of the paradigm I was working from before. I think it's a common paradigm--if I could just stop being gay, then I could be the man I'm meant to be. It's kind of wierd to see that written down, but I think that is so much a part of the attitude I grew up with.
I can sort of relate to the new movements in the deaf and autistic worlds. They no longer want people to see them as damaged, or try to cure them. Autistics want to be seen as fully complete people who have a different way of processing information. Deaf people are fully complete people who perceive the world in a different way. A cure implies damage. Deaf is not damaged. Autistic is not damaged. And I need to see that I am not damaged, either.
I can sort of relate to the new movements in the deaf and autistic worlds. They no longer want people to see them as damaged, or try to cure them. Autistics want to be seen as fully complete people who have a different way of processing information. Deaf people are fully complete people who perceive the world in a different way. A cure implies damage. Deaf is not damaged. Autistic is not damaged. And I need to see that I am not damaged, either.
Welcome back to the board. (I'm sure you discovered that a lot of the other boards are far less civil than this one.) I commend you for undertaking the difficult task of personal exploration. However, it troubles me that you equate masculinity with activities (hunting, taking part in sports, or going off to war)--activities in which only some men &, it should be noted, some women--participate, rather than viewing masculinity as an inherent part of one's being. When you mention "strength, stability, rationality, compassion, loyalty, etc" you touch on positive attributes and characteristics of contented human beings--again, some of whom are masculine. These attributes and the aforementioned activities are separate things: a contented person can hunt, be athletic, and/or go to war, but so can an unhappy soul. To be a contented person does not mean one lives without inner conflict & doubts, nor does it allow for an unexamined life. Rather, it involves a constant ongoing evaluation (one you seem to be doing--good for you!) of whether one moves through life with dignity and self-respect; offering respect & honor to others and commanding those qualities in return; holding one's head high when awake and earning the right to sleep the sleep of the just. In engaging in this process, one may not "find" oneself in some sort of epiphanic moment, but will eventually--gradually--grow into one's true self. As one grows towards that, the opinions of others become less important, though those opinions usually rise in response to those who act on their own true selves. A beneficial side effect of all this is no longer caring where one falls on some societally-created spectrum of masulinity/femininity. A truly contented individual has enough self-respect and sense of self to merely be himself. It's called being humane and it's far more important than whether a man is perceived as masculine or a woman is seen as feminine. Strive for that humaneness.
As for groups and subgroups within the gay community (I don't think there is actually such a thing, but that's for another discussion...) if you haven't found a clique to your liking, create your own.
~Adam
As for groups and subgroups within the gay community (I don't think there is actually such a thing, but that's for another discussion...) if you haven't found a clique to your liking, create your own.
~Adam
Welcome back, skjpm! It's good to have you back.
Coming to terms with being gay is one thing. Coming out is another. But between coming to terms and and coming out, there has to be self-acceptance.
No matter feminine, masculine, or whatever it may be. Loving and accepting yourself is the best thing that you can do. There is nothing wrong with wanting to change. Change can be healthy and positive but I think it should come from a place of growth and acceptance.
Trying to be something that you are not, just to feel better or to feel more accepted is basically like you never came out. It's like trading one closet for another.
I'm certainly not implying that that is what you're doing but it seems like you maybe headed in that direction. You're not alone. There are many gay men that try to be as masculine as they can to prove something to themselves/others. Some think it makes them more of a man and disassociates them from there more feminine brothers.
I think one of the things it takes to be a real man is being strong enough to accept and take responsibility for who you are and to make the changes necessary to become a better person from the inside out.
People make changes and reinvent themselves everyday. The trick is to know why you make or want to make the changes. You must accept yourself first, in order for other people to accept you.
Good luck to you and keep posting on OutSports.
Coming to terms with being gay is one thing. Coming out is another. But between coming to terms and and coming out, there has to be self-acceptance.
No matter feminine, masculine, or whatever it may be. Loving and accepting yourself is the best thing that you can do. There is nothing wrong with wanting to change. Change can be healthy and positive but I think it should come from a place of growth and acceptance.
Trying to be something that you are not, just to feel better or to feel more accepted is basically like you never came out. It's like trading one closet for another.
I'm certainly not implying that that is what you're doing but it seems like you maybe headed in that direction. You're not alone. There are many gay men that try to be as masculine as they can to prove something to themselves/others. Some think it makes them more of a man and disassociates them from there more feminine brothers.
I think one of the things it takes to be a real man is being strong enough to accept and take responsibility for who you are and to make the changes necessary to become a better person from the inside out.
People make changes and reinvent themselves everyday. The trick is to know why you make or want to make the changes. You must accept yourself first, in order for other people to accept you.
Good luck to you and keep posting on OutSports.
Skpjm I noticed one thing in your response to Nat that stands out
"I think I do need to repair the wound that my father created by abandoning me."
Your father didn't create the wound, you did. His actions were wrong but you chose to be wounded. It was his weakness that made him abandon you, not yours. I'm not sure if he's dead or alive but you have to start with forgiving yourself. If he's alive you need to tell him how you feel and tell him his weakness is not your fault. Realize that you did nothing wrong. You're already showing how strong you are because you're facing the issue of your sexuality head on without fear.
Whether you're effeminate or not as Thom and some others have very eloquently put. You're a gay man because of genetics. Whether you're effiminate or not you're still a kind, loving person who deserves respect from others, and yourself.
"I think I do need to repair the wound that my father created by abandoning me."
Your father didn't create the wound, you did. His actions were wrong but you chose to be wounded. It was his weakness that made him abandon you, not yours. I'm not sure if he's dead or alive but you have to start with forgiving yourself. If he's alive you need to tell him how you feel and tell him his weakness is not your fault. Realize that you did nothing wrong. You're already showing how strong you are because you're facing the issue of your sexuality head on without fear.
Whether you're effeminate or not as Thom and some others have very eloquently put. You're a gay man because of genetics. Whether you're effiminate or not you're still a kind, loving person who deserves respect from others, and yourself.
this is a very interesting topic and want to just add my two cents worth and share a little bit about where i come from, might give someone more perspective or not whatever I just feel like adding my comments.
I grew up in a small rural farm town. in the middle of washington state and when i say small i mean small my graduating class was 32 people the entire highschool consisted of 120. Farming, hunting, fishing and sports were what drove the area. I learned to hunt and fish from the time i was old enough to walk. My 2nd birthday i got a plastic snoopy bat and ball. I grew up playing sports. working on farms in the summer, hunting fishing camping. Building houses during the summers with my grandfather. Building the house that my parents still live in. In other words a very masculine society. I loved sports Because of the size of the school and community the coaches were always saying they needed me the team needed me. And i loved it. I played football in the fall basketball in the winter and baseball in the spring. Summers for a couple of weeks I attended sports camps.
I didnt actually "admit" that i was gay untill I was 27. this small community also had an extremly large mormon population of which i was a part of with my family. SUndays were spent at Church and Wednesday evenings were spent in Boy scouts. were they teach you to be masculine. I didnt even know there was such a thing a gay people. That may sound odd or stupid but its true. There were always whisperings or occasionaly some movie or tv show would mention so and so is gay but being in a small town i didnt have the exposure to anything gay. there was no metrosexual people there was no idea of masculine. If you were small and skinny and didnt play sports your were a bit of a freak, but no one said hey your gay. There wasnt any overly feminine men that i can remeber. Sure there were a few that were teachers that were single young men and dressed nicer than the farmers etc but i dont remeber hearing that any one ever called them gay.
At that point in my life i didnt really care. I went to a mormon college in Rural Idaho. Taking ecology and general courses. Again i was rite smack in the middle of a hunting fishing farming community. Few hours drive from Yellowstone park. Some of my classes in the winter included snowmobiling in yellowstone. Now that was the best class i had. I spent two years in Central america on a mission for the mormon church leaving when i was 19 and returning when i was 21. I had various girlfriends, was engaged to the last one. And was all primed to raise a big mormon family and live happily ever after in a small rural farm community. Funny how i knew it wasnt going to work out and ended it.
But my life hasnt much changed. Yea i am still mormon although not practicing and dont even step inside a church unless i am home with my family. I work for a large insurance company as a claims examiner and spend the majority of my time in burnt houses inventory contents and helping people get back on thier feet. My brother in law is a cop, my father is an old cowboy who works for the irrigation district, my brother is a prison guard...not many more masculine jobs....Point of all this. I was raised in a Male dominated society. I have 4 sisters and an absolutely wonderfull mother who is one of the lights of my life.
Even though it took me some time to admitt to myself that i was gay. And i still remeber standing in front of the mirror looking myself in the eye and saying "you're gay" you owe it to yourself to follow this thru and see if it is truely makes you who you are. And i did. I finished college moved to Seattle and started being me.
I have always been attracted to the type of men i grew up around. One of my favorite sayings is "to each his own"... I dont identify with the majority of the gay "community" which actually is wrong. I dont indentify with the gay "stereotype". I hunt I fish i play sports alot, i work out. I have no sense of fashion barely being able to match my clothes. I am 30 pounds overwieght. I like dogs more than cats I drive an SUV. I like to go to the mountains and just drive thru or hike......I DO NOT like to go shopping. I do not like to spend every night in a bar. I dont say GIIIRRRL unless i am fooling around. Its just not who I am. Its not who i want to be. It just doesnt fit in me. Everyone outside my gay group of friends who have found out i was gay or whom i have come out to have been shocked. with comments of "no way your kidding" "i would never have guessed" "you cant be"...the other day i was at lunch with a couple friends who know i am gay and who have. We were talking about the sentencing of a man who beat a gay man a few years ago here in seattle. And i said that because i am a pretty big guy i dont have the problems with or feel uncomfortable coming out of a gay bar or being in the gay neighborhood and have the fear of being beaten up etc..and i even said laughing i look like one who would be doing the beating up of a gay man ( I am 5 11 247.5 have a full beard trimmed, and a very short falttop)...and she said "but you know thats whats cool about you, your gay but you dont look or act like it, but your you. DOnt change because its you. Your masculine and your yourself>." that made me smile. I like hearing that people dont think i am gay. I like it when people think that i am so masculine that i have to be straight....But you know what it doesnt define who I am. It does not make me any better of a person than the drag queen performing on friday nights. Who btw on sundays is one of the best damn softball players i have ever seen.
now having said that i will end this post with a couple more things that for me are very important.
Be who you are... It took me awhile to stop living in fear that i was going to become a flaming stereotype. I didnt want to start living to shop and being a stereo type. It just wasnt me. But i found that there are subcultures in the gay community that i identified with. The bear community for one (to a point).
Being masculine does not make you more of a man than the drag queen who sits next to you at work. Dont laugh, you never know who on the weekends is doing that dress.
I have learned to accept people for who they are and tolerate them. "to each his own" One of my incredibly good friends is a drag queen. But you wouldnt know it during the week.
In my opinion i am not sure if someone can "learn" to be more masculine. Just by being around straight people is not going to make me straight. and being around gay people is not going to make me gay. My father is a mans man. Someone whom i look up to. But he cooks, cleans, irons washes the clothes and even helps tye quilts on christmas eve with the rest of the family. Doing that stuff doesnt make him any more or less masculine. Again i am not trying to upset anyone or piss anyone off.
For me a big part of my life is just being comfortable being ME in my own skin being happy. I walk around and do say man I wish i could look like that. I wish that person would talk to me. I wish i was more outgoing. I wish I wish.......
In the end it comes down to I'm me you dont have to like me. After meeting me, i bet that you dont have the same stereotypes of gay men.
Sklpm i wish you the best in your endevours. Dont give up. Be as happy as you can.My only advice is, do the hunting fishing, masculine things etc because you enjoy them. Not because they are going to change who you are or the way you are. I hunt, fish and play sports because I enjoy them. I enjoy going to the gym. I really do. Because of my drag queen friend i am learning to be a little more stylish in my dress etc. We all can learn something from everyone we meet. No matter if they are the bunch hunting guide to the feminine hair dresser. People are people.
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.--- DR. Suess.
Later.
I grew up in a small rural farm town. in the middle of washington state and when i say small i mean small my graduating class was 32 people the entire highschool consisted of 120. Farming, hunting, fishing and sports were what drove the area. I learned to hunt and fish from the time i was old enough to walk. My 2nd birthday i got a plastic snoopy bat and ball. I grew up playing sports. working on farms in the summer, hunting fishing camping. Building houses during the summers with my grandfather. Building the house that my parents still live in. In other words a very masculine society. I loved sports Because of the size of the school and community the coaches were always saying they needed me the team needed me. And i loved it. I played football in the fall basketball in the winter and baseball in the spring. Summers for a couple of weeks I attended sports camps.
I didnt actually "admit" that i was gay untill I was 27. this small community also had an extremly large mormon population of which i was a part of with my family. SUndays were spent at Church and Wednesday evenings were spent in Boy scouts. were they teach you to be masculine. I didnt even know there was such a thing a gay people. That may sound odd or stupid but its true. There were always whisperings or occasionaly some movie or tv show would mention so and so is gay but being in a small town i didnt have the exposure to anything gay. there was no metrosexual people there was no idea of masculine. If you were small and skinny and didnt play sports your were a bit of a freak, but no one said hey your gay. There wasnt any overly feminine men that i can remeber. Sure there were a few that were teachers that were single young men and dressed nicer than the farmers etc but i dont remeber hearing that any one ever called them gay.
At that point in my life i didnt really care. I went to a mormon college in Rural Idaho. Taking ecology and general courses. Again i was rite smack in the middle of a hunting fishing farming community. Few hours drive from Yellowstone park. Some of my classes in the winter included snowmobiling in yellowstone. Now that was the best class i had. I spent two years in Central america on a mission for the mormon church leaving when i was 19 and returning when i was 21. I had various girlfriends, was engaged to the last one. And was all primed to raise a big mormon family and live happily ever after in a small rural farm community. Funny how i knew it wasnt going to work out and ended it.
But my life hasnt much changed. Yea i am still mormon although not practicing and dont even step inside a church unless i am home with my family. I work for a large insurance company as a claims examiner and spend the majority of my time in burnt houses inventory contents and helping people get back on thier feet. My brother in law is a cop, my father is an old cowboy who works for the irrigation district, my brother is a prison guard...not many more masculine jobs....Point of all this. I was raised in a Male dominated society. I have 4 sisters and an absolutely wonderfull mother who is one of the lights of my life.
Even though it took me some time to admitt to myself that i was gay. And i still remeber standing in front of the mirror looking myself in the eye and saying "you're gay" you owe it to yourself to follow this thru and see if it is truely makes you who you are. And i did. I finished college moved to Seattle and started being me.
I have always been attracted to the type of men i grew up around. One of my favorite sayings is "to each his own"... I dont identify with the majority of the gay "community" which actually is wrong. I dont indentify with the gay "stereotype". I hunt I fish i play sports alot, i work out. I have no sense of fashion barely being able to match my clothes. I am 30 pounds overwieght. I like dogs more than cats I drive an SUV. I like to go to the mountains and just drive thru or hike......I DO NOT like to go shopping. I do not like to spend every night in a bar. I dont say GIIIRRRL unless i am fooling around. Its just not who I am. Its not who i want to be. It just doesnt fit in me. Everyone outside my gay group of friends who have found out i was gay or whom i have come out to have been shocked. with comments of "no way your kidding" "i would never have guessed" "you cant be"...the other day i was at lunch with a couple friends who know i am gay and who have. We were talking about the sentencing of a man who beat a gay man a few years ago here in seattle. And i said that because i am a pretty big guy i dont have the problems with or feel uncomfortable coming out of a gay bar or being in the gay neighborhood and have the fear of being beaten up etc..and i even said laughing i look like one who would be doing the beating up of a gay man ( I am 5 11 247.5 have a full beard trimmed, and a very short falttop)...and she said "but you know thats whats cool about you, your gay but you dont look or act like it, but your you. DOnt change because its you. Your masculine and your yourself>." that made me smile. I like hearing that people dont think i am gay. I like it when people think that i am so masculine that i have to be straight....But you know what it doesnt define who I am. It does not make me any better of a person than the drag queen performing on friday nights. Who btw on sundays is one of the best damn softball players i have ever seen.
now having said that i will end this post with a couple more things that for me are very important.
Be who you are... It took me awhile to stop living in fear that i was going to become a flaming stereotype. I didnt want to start living to shop and being a stereo type. It just wasnt me. But i found that there are subcultures in the gay community that i identified with. The bear community for one (to a point).
Being masculine does not make you more of a man than the drag queen who sits next to you at work. Dont laugh, you never know who on the weekends is doing that dress.
I have learned to accept people for who they are and tolerate them. "to each his own" One of my incredibly good friends is a drag queen. But you wouldnt know it during the week.
In my opinion i am not sure if someone can "learn" to be more masculine. Just by being around straight people is not going to make me straight. and being around gay people is not going to make me gay. My father is a mans man. Someone whom i look up to. But he cooks, cleans, irons washes the clothes and even helps tye quilts on christmas eve with the rest of the family. Doing that stuff doesnt make him any more or less masculine. Again i am not trying to upset anyone or piss anyone off.
For me a big part of my life is just being comfortable being ME in my own skin being happy. I walk around and do say man I wish i could look like that. I wish that person would talk to me. I wish i was more outgoing. I wish I wish.......
In the end it comes down to I'm me you dont have to like me. After meeting me, i bet that you dont have the same stereotypes of gay men.
Sklpm i wish you the best in your endevours. Dont give up. Be as happy as you can.My only advice is, do the hunting fishing, masculine things etc because you enjoy them. Not because they are going to change who you are or the way you are. I hunt, fish and play sports because I enjoy them. I enjoy going to the gym. I really do. Because of my drag queen friend i am learning to be a little more stylish in my dress etc. We all can learn something from everyone we meet. No matter if they are the bunch hunting guide to the feminine hair dresser. People are people.
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.--- DR. Suess.
Later.
Jeff, that was one of the best posts I have ever read. Wow.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
Thanks Gator Jamie. :-)
QUOTE
GatorJamie:
Jeff, that was one of the best posts I have ever read. Wow.
Agreed. Jeff, do you have a boyfriend? If not, prepare for a flood of proposals. wink
Jeff, that was one of the best posts I have ever read. Wow.
Yeah, what GJ said.
Skjpm, if you want to hunt/fish or play sports, don't do it to try to fit in or be accepted by the straight world. Think of all the time you'll waste on doing things you don't enjoy just for the sake of appearances. Life's too short for that. Just be yourself and do what you want to do because you enjoy it, or because you want to try something new.
FWIW, being masculine doesn't equal being good at sports. I've seen plenty of butch men that aren't very good athletes, and some of the best (and toughest) athletes I've seen are somewhat effeminate outside of sports.
Skjpm, if you want to hunt/fish or play sports, don't do it to try to fit in or be accepted by the straight world. Think of all the time you'll waste on doing things you don't enjoy just for the sake of appearances. Life's too short for that. Just be yourself and do what you want to do because you enjoy it, or because you want to try something new.
FWIW, being masculine doesn't equal being good at sports. I've seen plenty of butch men that aren't very good athletes, and some of the best (and toughest) athletes I've seen are somewhat effeminate outside of sports.
Great posts guys. I used to really strive to "not be considered gay". I thought it was really important to my self esteem. One of the advantages of getting older is being able to realize that crap doesn't matter. Get yourself a great group of friends who love you for who you are and be yourself; you'll live a whole lot longer.
Thanks for all the posts. I appreciate your honesty, Jeffwa. That's the kind of world I grew up in, though I grew up in town, with my mother. It's hard to tell how much of what I want to do is genuinely part of me or how much is just trying to be like other guys. Honestly, I find fishing boring. I've liked hunting, as much as I have done it. I enjoy my current level of softball ability. Last night, I went out to play pool with some new (straight) acquaintances. I really like that.
Also, yesterday, I put the finishing touches on a writing project which I've been working on for several years. When I say writing project, I mean, uh, play. OK, when I say play, I mean musical. Oh, all right, it get's worse, when I say musical, I mean opera. All right, all right! It is (gasp!) a pop opera. Can anything be more gay than that? But it takes a lot of work, and I have probably put as much effort into it as anyone who works out or tracks deer. I didn't plan to have the ability to write pop operas--in fact, it's taken a lot of work and development to get to the point where I can put this kind of project together. Still, when I get called out at first plate, I can hardly say to the guy, "Yeah? Well, I can write a damn good recitative!"
If masculinity, or just general competence, is judged by sticking to a project, I should feel good. But it still seems I should have some kind of antlers to hang on the wall when I'm done.
Also, yesterday, I put the finishing touches on a writing project which I've been working on for several years. When I say writing project, I mean, uh, play. OK, when I say play, I mean musical. Oh, all right, it get's worse, when I say musical, I mean opera. All right, all right! It is (gasp!) a pop opera. Can anything be more gay than that? But it takes a lot of work, and I have probably put as much effort into it as anyone who works out or tracks deer. I didn't plan to have the ability to write pop operas--in fact, it's taken a lot of work and development to get to the point where I can put this kind of project together. Still, when I get called out at first plate, I can hardly say to the guy, "Yeah? Well, I can write a damn good recitative!"
If masculinity, or just general competence, is judged by sticking to a project, I should feel good. But it still seems I should have some kind of antlers to hang on the wall when I'm done.
hehe yes Joe in Philly i do have a boyfriend. He is not however much into sports. First time he had ever even held a gun was this past thanksgiving when my dad and brother in law and me took him out to shoot a gun. NOt just one but about 10 different guns was great he loved it. Not going to hunt or own a gun but he loved it. He is ab ig man who is struggling with his weight and a recent back issue thanks to the new puppies :-)He is not to mechanically inclined i do all the repairs on the house etc. He works with computers at the monstrosisty which is Microsoft and emmigrated from Britian to work for them. Going with the subject of this thread, even though he doesnt do the butch things like repair the house drive a truck hunt fish etc it doesnt make him any less of a man. He does camp it up when he is fooling around with friends but thats not him. I dont know how to put it. He is just "him" hes a good man with a big heart. Honest courteous, funny, loving courageous and everything. He doesnt have to be a lumberjack or a construction worker. Doesnt hur that he looks like one though :-)
So sorry to dissappoint any of the would be proposals. Maybe i should move down to Colorado city where polygamy is still practiced.....hahaha can you image that...
So sorry to dissappoint any of the would be proposals. Maybe i should move down to Colorado city where polygamy is still practiced.....hahaha can you image that...
Congratulations on finishing your Pop Opera. Honestly that is a tremendous accomplishement.
When first coming out at the age the tender age of 27 i was very worried about being outed. About being "seen" around seattle with my boyfriend. Who was gonna find out and tell high school buddies and college roommates etc. What is going to happen next, am i going to get a fohawk hair cut and wear pink polos. Am I going to want to shop non stop......AM I GOING TO BE THE STEREOTYPE THAT I HATE SO MUCH.... But i realized that no i'm not. When i am around people that are very outragoues or who are not worried about being flamboyant etc i just have to laugh...Thier funny but most importantly their being themselves. Thier still men they just identify differently than i do.
Dictionary.com defines masculine as
mas·cu·line ( P ) Pronunciation Key (msky-ln)
adj.
Of or relating to men or boys; male.
Suggestive or characteristic of a man; mannish. See Synonyms at male.
Grammar. Relating or belonging to the gender of words or forms that refer chiefly to males or to things grammatically classified as male.
Music. Ending on an accented beat: a masculine cadence.
this defenition says nothing about hunting fishing etc doesnt say that to be masculine that you have to drink beer and crush the can on your head...trust me it hurts and always better done when the can is empty...Society for the most part has placed the image of the brawny man as being masculine. As the firefighter being the epitomy of courage and masculenity..and that makes it difficult for every male in our society to identify with. I identify with the "masculine stereotype" because that is where i feel most comfortable that is where i feel like me.
Self esteem and how we see ourselves goes along way towards showing other people who we are.
Skjpm can i ask how many of your straight friends know that you just had a major personal accomplishment in your life? How do you think that they would react if they knew? Are you afraid that they would think that would say that your gay and then wouldnt want to be around you.
Personally your accomplishment of writing an opera is friggin awsome. It is the same with my partner. He can do things with computers that makes me ache wishing i was even one sliver as talanted as person as he is. But he doesnt see it that way. He sees that he needs to do something else he needs to perform a little differently. But when he come home from his weekly volunteering stint at the youth group for gay youth he is just bouncing off the walls he is so excited and keeps saying this is why i do it.
Why cant your opera be your version of the antlers on the wall? You have something in your hands that you put your sweat blood and tears into. any one can pick up a gun and learn to hunt. Not everyone can pick up a pen and write an opera, Let alone a pop opera.
and Screw antlers thier not that cool after a few years and scare the crap out of you when u wake up in the middle of the night and thier staring at you with those glass eyes.
But on the same token. Do what you need to to be comfortable and happy with who you are. If that means buying the big truck hunting and covering every inch of your walls with animal skins and antlers then go for it. But dont sacrifice what makes you happy or what your passions are.
One of my biggest issues with bars and the gay community in general is there are alot of people (in my opinion) who "act" masculine or butch because they think its cool or whatever. When in reality they get home take off the levis, the leather harness and curl up on the couch and eat bon bons and watch Oprah...
Just be...
When first coming out at the age the tender age of 27 i was very worried about being outed. About being "seen" around seattle with my boyfriend. Who was gonna find out and tell high school buddies and college roommates etc. What is going to happen next, am i going to get a fohawk hair cut and wear pink polos. Am I going to want to shop non stop......AM I GOING TO BE THE STEREOTYPE THAT I HATE SO MUCH.... But i realized that no i'm not. When i am around people that are very outragoues or who are not worried about being flamboyant etc i just have to laugh...Thier funny but most importantly their being themselves. Thier still men they just identify differently than i do.
Dictionary.com defines masculine as
mas·cu·line ( P ) Pronunciation Key (msky-ln)
adj.
Of or relating to men or boys; male.
Suggestive or characteristic of a man; mannish. See Synonyms at male.
Grammar. Relating or belonging to the gender of words or forms that refer chiefly to males or to things grammatically classified as male.
Music. Ending on an accented beat: a masculine cadence.
this defenition says nothing about hunting fishing etc doesnt say that to be masculine that you have to drink beer and crush the can on your head...trust me it hurts and always better done when the can is empty...Society for the most part has placed the image of the brawny man as being masculine. As the firefighter being the epitomy of courage and masculenity..and that makes it difficult for every male in our society to identify with. I identify with the "masculine stereotype" because that is where i feel most comfortable that is where i feel like me.
Self esteem and how we see ourselves goes along way towards showing other people who we are.
Skjpm can i ask how many of your straight friends know that you just had a major personal accomplishment in your life? How do you think that they would react if they knew? Are you afraid that they would think that would say that your gay and then wouldnt want to be around you.
Personally your accomplishment of writing an opera is friggin awsome. It is the same with my partner. He can do things with computers that makes me ache wishing i was even one sliver as talanted as person as he is. But he doesnt see it that way. He sees that he needs to do something else he needs to perform a little differently. But when he come home from his weekly volunteering stint at the youth group for gay youth he is just bouncing off the walls he is so excited and keeps saying this is why i do it.
Why cant your opera be your version of the antlers on the wall? You have something in your hands that you put your sweat blood and tears into. any one can pick up a gun and learn to hunt. Not everyone can pick up a pen and write an opera, Let alone a pop opera.
and Screw antlers thier not that cool after a few years and scare the crap out of you when u wake up in the middle of the night and thier staring at you with those glass eyes.
But on the same token. Do what you need to to be comfortable and happy with who you are. If that means buying the big truck hunting and covering every inch of your walls with animal skins and antlers then go for it. But dont sacrifice what makes you happy or what your passions are.
One of my biggest issues with bars and the gay community in general is there are alot of people (in my opinion) who "act" masculine or butch because they think its cool or whatever. When in reality they get home take off the levis, the leather harness and curl up on the couch and eat bon bons and watch Oprah...
Just be...
I think the reason I brought up this latest accomplishment is because. . .I'm looking for backers! Not really. OK, really. I mean, you never know. But I think I brought it up because I'm tired of playing down the things I can do. Teaching is actually difficult, and I'm beginning to think that we should maybe even be paid more than baseball players, say, or CEOs. I think a lot of my feeling different comes, not from being gay, but from just being myself.
I felt that reparative therapy had a lot to do with trying to affirm only one kind of masculinity as being healthy, and that along with the gay feelings, you had to start doing sports, fixing the car, and ultimately, marry and raise a family. I think I might end up living a less traditional, but still healthy, life. Like Walt Whitman or Henry James.
I felt that reparative therapy had a lot to do with trying to affirm only one kind of masculinity as being healthy, and that along with the gay feelings, you had to start doing sports, fixing the car, and ultimately, marry and raise a family. I think I might end up living a less traditional, but still healthy, life. Like Walt Whitman or Henry James.
QUOTE
skjpm:
But it still seems I should have some kind of antlers to hang on the wall when I'm done.
How about applause from the audiences, all the money you'll make and Tony awards, Oscars for the movie version, Grammys for the soundtrack... wink
But it still seems I should have some kind of antlers to hang on the wall when I'm done.
As I may have mentioned in an earlier post, I used to work with Adam Vinatieri, before he tried out for the NFL. (Incidentally, he was/is extremely attractive.) He would tell me of his dream, and I would listen politely.
Anyway, my plan, when I win my Oscar or Tony, is to mention him as an inspiration in my acceptance speech. And then we'll meet later, talk about old times. . .
Also, I have a part that's just perfect for Alec Baldwin.
You're right. Who need antlers? Alec doesn't eat meat anyway. (You can make up your own one-liner to follow that one.)
Anyway, my plan, when I win my Oscar or Tony, is to mention him as an inspiration in my acceptance speech. And then we'll meet later, talk about old times. . .
Also, I have a part that's just perfect for Alec Baldwin.
You're right. Who need antlers? Alec doesn't eat meat anyway. (You can make up your own one-liner to follow that one.)
You'll have to forgive my ignorance...But what is reparative therapy?
Just from the name it sounds as if its basis is, that something tramautic or damaging has occured in your life and thus the need to be repaired? and that this traumatic or damaging experience or expiernces is contributing to a certain behavior. A behaviour which can be repaired or changed... is this correct or am i completly off base...is it a therapy telling you that being homosexual is wrong and that you can change?
Just wondering.
Just from the name it sounds as if its basis is, that something tramautic or damaging has occured in your life and thus the need to be repaired? and that this traumatic or damaging experience or expiernces is contributing to a certain behavior. A behaviour which can be repaired or changed... is this correct or am i completly off base...is it a therapy telling you that being homosexual is wrong and that you can change?
Just wondering.
QUOTE
Originally posted by skjpm:
. If malenessis defined as strength, stability, rationality, compassion, loyalty, etc.,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would expect my female friends to offer me the same qualities. These are good human qualities that one can develop with a high self-esteem regardless of how much testosterone or estrogen one’s body produces.
Thank you, Thom, you saved me from having to say that.. If malenessis defined as strength, stability, rationality, compassion, loyalty, etc.,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would expect my female friends to offer me the same qualities. These are good human qualities that one can develop with a high self-esteem regardless of how much testosterone or estrogen one’s body produces.
It bothers me a LOT that being powerful, rational etc. are associated with being "more masculine" which in turn is associated with so-called "masculine" pursuits like hunting, fishing and sports. First, as many have pointed out, a lot of men, gay or straight, are not into sports, guns, fishing et al and many women are. Am I being "unfeminine" because I am good at math and knowledgeable about sports? Do I redeem myself by being a gourmet cook? Are Baryshnikov and Pavarotti less "manly" than Bill Romanowski or John Rocker? Are Martina Navratilova and Marie Curie lesser women than Paris Hilton or Britney Spears?
How about being a stronger, more rational, more courageous, more honest etc. HUMAN BEING?
As for your question, JeffWa, my understanding of "reparative therapy" is that it claims to "repair" gays and lesbians by making us straight, or at least, making us no longer desire to be gay and lesbian. If there is any other kind, perhaps the original poster can tell us, I am not aware of any.
I'm not trying to say men are better than women, but even the most strident feminists would agree that men and women are different. The qualities associated with feminity are different from masculinity. I think that we as a culture have made a mistake that men and women aren't intrinsically different. We do think differently, and approach problems differently. Start with Gilligan's groundbreaking work A Different Voice.
And, whatever the difference, I am attracted to masculine energy, not feminine energy.
And, whatever the difference, I am attracted to masculine energy, not feminine energy.
Interesting website in regard to reparative therapies. http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod.htm
JeffWa, I sent an email to you regarding Seattle.
JeffWa, I sent an email to you regarding Seattle.
glb_042003 got your email and responded hope that helps email me with any more questions regarding seattle.
thanks for the link also. The information on reprative therapy was very interesting. Sounds like it is primarily religous based, or use the religous standing that homosexuality is wrong. I found it interesting that they were talking about homosexuality being a product of our environment. And that it all falls back to the parents. Same religious idealogy about its the parents fault. No wonder so many parents disown thier kids after finding out thier gay.
interesting stuff on the therapy.
thanks for the link also. The information on reprative therapy was very interesting. Sounds like it is primarily religous based, or use the religous standing that homosexuality is wrong. I found it interesting that they were talking about homosexuality being a product of our environment. And that it all falls back to the parents. Same religious idealogy about its the parents fault. No wonder so many parents disown thier kids after finding out thier gay.
interesting stuff on the therapy.
QUOTE
The qualities associated with feminity are different from masculinity
Of course they are. And my point is that "masculine" and "feminine" are sex role stereotypes that have more to do with sexism and power than with the genuine attributes of real people. There is absolutely no evidence that men are more rational, courageous, etc. than women. None. If a person is worried that he/she does not fit "masculine" or "feminine" categories as defined for his/her gender, my advice would be to just be who you are and forget the sex role stereotyping. There is not a damn thing wrong with men liking ballet and cooking and there is not a damn thing wrong with women liking sports and math. As for personal tastes ("I like masculine attributes") that is all they are, personal tastes for certain attributes that have nothing to do with gender and everything to do with individual personality. If someone prefers a male partner, whether they are gay or straight, who likes to hunt, fish and play football, throws his socks on the floor and never ever cries, that's their business. But all that is is their personal taste.
Believe it or not, men do not have a "throw your socks on the floor" gene and women do not have a "pick up men's socks" gene.
skjpm:
Welcome back. I have a few opinions, and yes, I will be nice.
First, I am a 49 year old gay man. I am not "butch", nor am I "effeminate". I am the all consuming boring normal. I am fighting a battle with my weight, and want to lose 40 - 50 lbs.
If I do? Great!! If I don't? I will do the best I can. If people don't accept me for the way I look, then I say the hell with them.
I grew up in a small town outside of Ottawa (the capital of Canada), and my father was very well known in the town, so there was always the pressure to "be good", "be more like my cousins" etc. Add on top of it that my father loved to go hunting and fishing, and even wore his flourescent orange hunting cap to Sears (I still don't know why).
My biggest hurdle in school was the fact that I was 5'9, about 110 lbs, curly red hair, thick glasses, and my parents made me carry a briefcase, (aka suck sack). That automatically made me a target at school, and at one point in grade 11 it got so bad I actually put a double barrelled shotgun in my mouth and was going to pull the trigger.
My point? Who you are is NOT defined by what you do. I don't really fit into the stereotypical gay community. If I go to a bar, it might be once a year. And I see the same people, in the same places, still gettting drunk and screaming. That's just not me. My ideal weekends are at my cottage with my partner, (In Sept it's our 25th). He has a nap and I go fishing after supper. Sounds quiet and boring, but the closes we get to gay is watching Rocky Horror.
I am VERY happy with my life, and God knows, (as well as a few people on this board) that I've been thrown a few curveballs, and been dealt more than my fair share of heartache, like having my first lover murdered. My husband and I lived in the heart of the gay village in Toronto for about 7 years, and we've been moving farther away ever since. We now live about 1 hour north of Toronto in a small town, and are buying a new home this weekend (if it's not sold by then) that is even farther out.
If, as you say, you've lived in a small town for most of your life, then a number of things seem evident to me. People know you for who you are already. Why try to put a "masculine" tag on it? Be who you are. If that's a mid west Ru Paul, then that's okay. Before you try to please the neighbours, family and church, you HAVE to please yourself. Otherwise the rest is useless.
And about the weight, getting in shape is hard. But do it because you want to get healthy, not because you want to be "cut".
ANd if you stay large, so be it. Just be healthy, whether you're large or small.
But mostly, be happy.
Welcome back. I have a few opinions, and yes, I will be nice.
First, I am a 49 year old gay man. I am not "butch", nor am I "effeminate". I am the all consuming boring normal. I am fighting a battle with my weight, and want to lose 40 - 50 lbs.
If I do? Great!! If I don't? I will do the best I can. If people don't accept me for the way I look, then I say the hell with them.
I grew up in a small town outside of Ottawa (the capital of Canada), and my father was very well known in the town, so there was always the pressure to "be good", "be more like my cousins" etc. Add on top of it that my father loved to go hunting and fishing, and even wore his flourescent orange hunting cap to Sears (I still don't know why).
My biggest hurdle in school was the fact that I was 5'9, about 110 lbs, curly red hair, thick glasses, and my parents made me carry a briefcase, (aka suck sack). That automatically made me a target at school, and at one point in grade 11 it got so bad I actually put a double barrelled shotgun in my mouth and was going to pull the trigger.
My point? Who you are is NOT defined by what you do. I don't really fit into the stereotypical gay community. If I go to a bar, it might be once a year. And I see the same people, in the same places, still gettting drunk and screaming. That's just not me. My ideal weekends are at my cottage with my partner, (In Sept it's our 25th). He has a nap and I go fishing after supper. Sounds quiet and boring, but the closes we get to gay is watching Rocky Horror.
I am VERY happy with my life, and God knows, (as well as a few people on this board) that I've been thrown a few curveballs, and been dealt more than my fair share of heartache, like having my first lover murdered. My husband and I lived in the heart of the gay village in Toronto for about 7 years, and we've been moving farther away ever since. We now live about 1 hour north of Toronto in a small town, and are buying a new home this weekend (if it's not sold by then) that is even farther out.
If, as you say, you've lived in a small town for most of your life, then a number of things seem evident to me. People know you for who you are already. Why try to put a "masculine" tag on it? Be who you are. If that's a mid west Ru Paul, then that's okay. Before you try to please the neighbours, family and church, you HAVE to please yourself. Otherwise the rest is useless.
And about the weight, getting in shape is hard. But do it because you want to get healthy, not because you want to be "cut".
ANd if you stay large, so be it. Just be healthy, whether you're large or small.
But mostly, be happy.
well said Ms de Blazer
>And, whatever the difference, I am attracted to masculine energy, not feminine energy.
Really? I never would have guessed that, considering you've said a zillion times in different ways, Your Butchness!
Okay, you're masculine, masculine, masculine and attracted to men who are they same as you.
Sheesh, you were one broken record before you left us.
Really? I never would have guessed that, considering you've said a zillion times in different ways, Your Butchness!
Okay, you're masculine, masculine, masculine and attracted to men who are they same as you.
Sheesh, you were one broken record before you left us.
>Also, yesterday, I put the finishing touches on a writing project which I've been working on for several years. When I say writing project, I mean, uh, play. OK, when I say play, I mean musical. Oh, all right, it get's worse, when I say musical, I mean opera. All right, all right! It is (gasp!) a pop opera. Can anything be more gay than that?
Puh-leeze, Louise!
I'm shocked that he who is just too masculine for the gay community, probably humanity too, admitted in this post, after much tortured wording, that he engages in the very un-butch activity of writing, uh, plays, nope, he means, musicals, no, really operas, nah, it's honestly a pop opara!
Can anyone be more dishonest than this mess of a man from Omaha?
Whether he wrote about his masculinity and how the entire gay community is not up to her standards of butchness, or his pussyfooting about his ability to write pop operas, this tortured queen showed how he really suffers a superiority complex that won't allow him to just be himself.
And to make matters worse, he couldn't wait to bash millions of gays who labor day after day in the trenches for all of us to enjoy equal marriage and military rights, adopt kids, teach school, live happy lives, parade our pride, be it butch or femmy or both at the same time.
Puh-leeze, Louise!
I'm shocked that he who is just too masculine for the gay community, probably humanity too, admitted in this post, after much tortured wording, that he engages in the very un-butch activity of writing, uh, plays, nope, he means, musicals, no, really operas, nah, it's honestly a pop opara!
Can anyone be more dishonest than this mess of a man from Omaha?
Whether he wrote about his masculinity and how the entire gay community is not up to her standards of butchness, or his pussyfooting about his ability to write pop operas, this tortured queen showed how he really suffers a superiority complex that won't allow him to just be himself.
And to make matters worse, he couldn't wait to bash millions of gays who labor day after day in the trenches for all of us to enjoy equal marriage and military rights, adopt kids, teach school, live happy lives, parade our pride, be it butch or femmy or both at the same time.
Yeowtch. That was a bit harsh dear.
Now, during the OP's first foray into the boards many months ago, I would have backed your harsh words 100%. While he has not yet reached full enlightenment, the young homo is making progress. We should be more understanding that the path is long and sometimes perilous.
We know he still has misguided views of masculinity/femininity, but he will get there in due time. The forecast looks good.
Now, during the OP's first foray into the boards many months ago, I would have backed your harsh words 100%. While he has not yet reached full enlightenment, the young homo is making progress. We should be more understanding that the path is long and sometimes perilous.
We know he still has misguided views of masculinity/femininity, but he will get there in due time. The forecast looks good.
QUOTE
orsino4:
The forecast looks good.
Forecast seemed pretty stormy to me, lots of unsettled weather ahead.
The forecast looks good.
I think it's New Englanders who say, "Don't like the weather? Wait five minutes. It will change."
Sums up the gay-basher from Omaha with heavy butch/femme issues to work out in the privacy of a good mental health therapist's office.
One minute he was all fuzzy and warm about out gays. The next minute we're all ass****s because we don't kiss up to his twisted logic.
I suspect that nut was messed up before he hit the reparative therapy folks, who probably fed his immaturity.
Sums up the gay-basher from Omaha with heavy butch/femme issues to work out in the privacy of a good mental health therapist's office.
One minute he was all fuzzy and warm about out gays. The next minute we're all ass****s because we don't kiss up to his twisted logic.
I suspect that nut was messed up before he hit the reparative therapy folks, who probably fed his immaturity.
QUOTE
MPetrelis:
I think it's New Englanders who say, \"Don't like the weather? Wait five minutes. It will change.\"
Sums up the gay-basher from Omaha with heavy butch/femme issues to work out in the privacy of a good mental health therapist's office.
One minute he was all fuzzy and warm about out gays. The next minute we're all ass****s because we don't kiss up to his twisted logic.
I suspect that nut was messed up before he hit the reparative therapy folks, who probably fed his immaturity.
At the end he seemd like someone you would read about in the morning paper, some guy who goes off the deep end and hurts himself or someone else. He probably has a padded room in his future though.
I think it's New Englanders who say, \"Don't like the weather? Wait five minutes. It will change.\"
Sums up the gay-basher from Omaha with heavy butch/femme issues to work out in the privacy of a good mental health therapist's office.
One minute he was all fuzzy and warm about out gays. The next minute we're all ass****s because we don't kiss up to his twisted logic.
I suspect that nut was messed up before he hit the reparative therapy folks, who probably fed his immaturity.
You read about nutjobs like that because too many try to "understand" his b.s. and give it legitimacy. May he find the butch padded room he so desperately needs with his masculine Daddy to take care of him. Glad he left this board.
Dear skjpm:
I book I would HIGHLY recommend for you to read is the following (and no, I'm not trying to endorse amamzon.com):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books
It's a TRUE story about a former Baltimore Colts football player-turned-minister. It's not preachy--whatsoever--but he's now a high school football coach who teaches his team what it truly means to be a man. He teaches them mostly about love. But also about commitment, responsibility, team-work & effort, supporting one another, etc... His team has already won a state championship & they continue to do well. The macho pressure (and crap for that matter) that our society puts on boys/men is so far from the truth as he points out. It also reveals his terrible relationship he had with his dad. I've recommended it to several of my male friends, both straight & gay. I hope that if you haven't read this book, then do so because it's so eye-opening. In fact, I recommend it to all Outsports members.
I, too, struggled w/ being "gay & masculine". And it took some time to come to terms w/ it. What it boils down to is that being gay is only PART of being a TOTAL human being. W/ maturity & time you'll learn that you can be gay, masculine, christian, etc., all at the same time. I would also say to you that you need to embrace your feminine side. In fact, all men do in order to truly be "whole" as a human. If one area lacks then you truly aren't "complete". All sound psychology/sociolgy teaches that. When you embrace all facets of yourself then you'll start feeling comfortable in your "skin", so to speak. Also, your desire to be masculine is also linked, I believe, to who or what you're attracted too. That is part of finding out what kind of "man" that you find sexy. Also, as you start seeing results in your work outs, you will naturally start feeling more masculine, and for that matter build self-confidence.
By the way, I too was a fundamentalist (Pentecostal) & was told that I could "change". Hell, I was even told that I had a "spirit of homosexuality" residing in my soul. With time I learned that this was an ouright lie & dangerously "cultish". Today, I'm a happy Episcopal like you. In addition, I didn't have the greatest relationship w/ my dad. So we have lots in common!
Finally, since I'm a teacher I taught a class at a Sheriff's deputy station for many years. This really helped me to gain my confidence in being aroud "masculine" men. Then eventually found out that I was gay (because the Sarge asked me) & they had no problems. We used to go out to lunch in their police cars & I was invited to many of their parties. And when they had some "issues" in their lives, they usually confided in me for advice. Because they knew I wouldn't judge them or "question" their masculinity just because they were "in touch" w/ their emotions. So I think they learned a lot from me too. They were surprised that I loved sports & knew a lot about them. I sometimes knew more about sports facts than they did. I also love cars so we would always talk about cars too--especially if something knew was coming out that was cool! Today, one of my deputy friends & I have become quite tight. We often have lunch like two close buddies or brothers for that matter.
Anyway goodluck on your journey. You'll find that there are many lessons to learn that are awaiting ahead for you.
I book I would HIGHLY recommend for you to read is the following (and no, I'm not trying to endorse amamzon.com):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books
It's a TRUE story about a former Baltimore Colts football player-turned-minister. It's not preachy--whatsoever--but he's now a high school football coach who teaches his team what it truly means to be a man. He teaches them mostly about love. But also about commitment, responsibility, team-work & effort, supporting one another, etc... His team has already won a state championship & they continue to do well. The macho pressure (and crap for that matter) that our society puts on boys/men is so far from the truth as he points out. It also reveals his terrible relationship he had with his dad. I've recommended it to several of my male friends, both straight & gay. I hope that if you haven't read this book, then do so because it's so eye-opening. In fact, I recommend it to all Outsports members.
I, too, struggled w/ being "gay & masculine". And it took some time to come to terms w/ it. What it boils down to is that being gay is only PART of being a TOTAL human being. W/ maturity & time you'll learn that you can be gay, masculine, christian, etc., all at the same time. I would also say to you that you need to embrace your feminine side. In fact, all men do in order to truly be "whole" as a human. If one area lacks then you truly aren't "complete". All sound psychology/sociolgy teaches that. When you embrace all facets of yourself then you'll start feeling comfortable in your "skin", so to speak. Also, your desire to be masculine is also linked, I believe, to who or what you're attracted too. That is part of finding out what kind of "man" that you find sexy. Also, as you start seeing results in your work outs, you will naturally start feeling more masculine, and for that matter build self-confidence.
By the way, I too was a fundamentalist (Pentecostal) & was told that I could "change". Hell, I was even told that I had a "spirit of homosexuality" residing in my soul. With time I learned that this was an ouright lie & dangerously "cultish". Today, I'm a happy Episcopal like you. In addition, I didn't have the greatest relationship w/ my dad. So we have lots in common!
Finally, since I'm a teacher I taught a class at a Sheriff's deputy station for many years. This really helped me to gain my confidence in being aroud "masculine" men. Then eventually found out that I was gay (because the Sarge asked me) & they had no problems. We used to go out to lunch in their police cars & I was invited to many of their parties. And when they had some "issues" in their lives, they usually confided in me for advice. Because they knew I wouldn't judge them or "question" their masculinity just because they were "in touch" w/ their emotions. So I think they learned a lot from me too. They were surprised that I loved sports & knew a lot about them. I sometimes knew more about sports facts than they did. I also love cars so we would always talk about cars too--especially if something knew was coming out that was cool! Today, one of my deputy friends & I have become quite tight. We often have lunch like two close buddies or brothers for that matter.
Anyway goodluck on your journey. You'll find that there are many lessons to learn that are awaiting ahead for you.
Although this thread is probably dead that was a great post. You brought up a point that I thought of mentioning. Every PERSON has a masculine and feminine side. The biggest bull dike can have a highly developed feminine side just as a flaming queen can be masculine despite their outward appearances. In fact, most outward appearances are mere posturing. It is our hormones that drive our masculine and feminine behavior.
There was a female scientist who questioned whether flight or fight were the only responses animals made when threatened. She discovered that this theory was developed only through studies of the male species. So she studied female species and found they could only fight so much and couldn’t flee since they had offspring. Instead they socialized and negotiate to avoid confrontation. That is why men consider women manipulative and women consider men belligerent. Women must also nurture their young. Nurturing is a feminine trait but a good father must have this quality.
The typical chick flick has a plot where the man acts like a man and pisses the woman off. Eventually he gets in touch with his feminine side and wins the woman over. I must confess, I am not a fan of chick flicks but that doesn’t mean I’m not a whole person.
There was a female scientist who questioned whether flight or fight were the only responses animals made when threatened. She discovered that this theory was developed only through studies of the male species. So she studied female species and found they could only fight so much and couldn’t flee since they had offspring. Instead they socialized and negotiate to avoid confrontation. That is why men consider women manipulative and women consider men belligerent. Women must also nurture their young. Nurturing is a feminine trait but a good father must have this quality.
The typical chick flick has a plot where the man acts like a man and pisses the woman off. Eventually he gets in touch with his feminine side and wins the woman over. I must confess, I am not a fan of chick flicks but that doesn’t mean I’m not a whole person.
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