I'm a black kid of Jamaican descent & only like white boys; specifically blondes. I have no idea why that is and at this point, have stopped wondering.
It's funny as when I used to live in NYC and would step in Hip clubs or black bars, the black guys would not even look at me, only the white guys.
Some may think I'm discriminating against my race but as far as I'm concerned. That is not the case ...
Let's hear what you guys have to say on this subject...
Full Version: Interracial Dating
[quote]Originally posted by kiperoni:
I'm a black kid of Jamaican descent & only like white boys; specifically blondes. I have no idea why that is and at this point, have stopped wondering.
I'm not being facetious or sarcastic but you might want to start wondering again.
Understanding ones urges instead of just following them is a healthy and rewarding pursuit.
I only had sex with black guys when I was a teenager because the only gay guys I had been exposed to were black. I didn't know there were gay guys of other colors.
Eventually my sex partners became almost exclusively white because they were the only people I could identify with intellectually and emotionally. There was no significant open black gay community in which I felt I could be comfortable and excepted for all of who I am.
I have a partner now who happens to be white (Australian) but the guys I find attractive physically now spread over the entire spectrum of races. The attraction diminishes or increases dramatically as I learn more about the person.
There are instintive reactions that we all have to certain situations or people. Using instincts can be great when they are good ones but if they are not, you can use your free will to control them.
Obviously you are the only one who can decide whether yours are good thing or not - or whether it matters.
I'm a black kid of Jamaican descent & only like white boys; specifically blondes. I have no idea why that is and at this point, have stopped wondering.
I'm not being facetious or sarcastic but you might want to start wondering again.
Understanding ones urges instead of just following them is a healthy and rewarding pursuit.
I only had sex with black guys when I was a teenager because the only gay guys I had been exposed to were black. I didn't know there were gay guys of other colors.
Eventually my sex partners became almost exclusively white because they were the only people I could identify with intellectually and emotionally. There was no significant open black gay community in which I felt I could be comfortable and excepted for all of who I am.
I have a partner now who happens to be white (Australian) but the guys I find attractive physically now spread over the entire spectrum of races. The attraction diminishes or increases dramatically as I learn more about the person.
There are instintive reactions that we all have to certain situations or people. Using instincts can be great when they are good ones but if they are not, you can use your free will to control them.
Obviously you are the only one who can decide whether yours are good thing or not - or whether it matters.
I think that it is all a matter of personal preference. I do understand though, that preferences are often based upon past experiences, upbringing, and racial/ethnic stereotypes and myths.
Personally, I'm a black man and have a preference for other blacks as well as latinos. I have found a small handful of white men that I was attracted to, but that's rare for me. I personally WOULD date a person of any race if I were attracted to them. God, that sounds so cliche. For me, race is like hair color or any other physical characteristic. I can't really make it any more feeper than that because there are all types of personalities in every race. I just am not attracted to blondes, not that I don't like them personally or can't befriend them but they don't appeal to me. The same is true for while and asian males. I am not attracted to them, not that I have anything against them or that I can't befriend them.
On another topic though, many people date certain races because of stereotypes. I have a friend whose black that only dates old, white guys because he thinks that all old, white guys are loaded with money. I have a white friend that expressed his interest in me and actually told me that it was because I was black and he knew that all black men have large penises. Now don't get me worng, as the members of the Outsports Fantasy Fooball Leaugue can tell you, I am blessed with boyish good looks and a more than adequate male phallus, but I wasn't comfortable with that being his sole reason for wanting to date me. I do have a nice head on my shoulders ya know. I can tell you of many black men who are hard pressed to average-sized condoms that don't simply fall off because they are too large. Although I didn't like it I had to admit that even I had fallen prey to considering suitors simply based on stereotypes. Often I have seen a sexy latino and wanted to know if he too had a big UNCUT penis, simply because of the stereotype and my love for uncut dicks.
I think that people should just date what they like, even if it is for the wrong reasons, in most cases evetually things will work out the way they should. Relationships usually don't work that are based on superficial things.
Da Kid.
P.S.: The Miami Thunder is going to make it into the playoffs of the OFFL!!!
Personally, I'm a black man and have a preference for other blacks as well as latinos. I have found a small handful of white men that I was attracted to, but that's rare for me. I personally WOULD date a person of any race if I were attracted to them. God, that sounds so cliche. For me, race is like hair color or any other physical characteristic. I can't really make it any more feeper than that because there are all types of personalities in every race. I just am not attracted to blondes, not that I don't like them personally or can't befriend them but they don't appeal to me. The same is true for while and asian males. I am not attracted to them, not that I have anything against them or that I can't befriend them.
On another topic though, many people date certain races because of stereotypes. I have a friend whose black that only dates old, white guys because he thinks that all old, white guys are loaded with money. I have a white friend that expressed his interest in me and actually told me that it was because I was black and he knew that all black men have large penises. Now don't get me worng, as the members of the Outsports Fantasy Fooball Leaugue can tell you, I am blessed with boyish good looks and a more than adequate male phallus, but I wasn't comfortable with that being his sole reason for wanting to date me. I do have a nice head on my shoulders ya know. I can tell you of many black men who are hard pressed to average-sized condoms that don't simply fall off because they are too large. Although I didn't like it I had to admit that even I had fallen prey to considering suitors simply based on stereotypes. Often I have seen a sexy latino and wanted to know if he too had a big UNCUT penis, simply because of the stereotype and my love for uncut dicks.
I think that people should just date what they like, even if it is for the wrong reasons, in most cases evetually things will work out the way they should. Relationships usually don't work that are based on superficial things.
Da Kid.
P.S.: The Miami Thunder is going to make it into the playoffs of the OFFL!!!
I can relate to to what you are saying sport because the sexiest thing about a man to me is his mind and intellect. BUT I still have to have some level of physical attraction to that man.
Da Kid.
Da Kid.
well, it's not like i've "been around" that much (i can count 'em on one hand) but each guy i've ever dated (or slept with) has been an "ethnic".
there ARE white guys i find attractive, but for the most part my tastes tend to blacks and asians with the occasional hispanic thrown in for good measure.
as for why...who knows? does it really matter? does it make me any worse or better of a person if i'm attracted mainly to minorities? i don't think so.
there ARE white guys i find attractive, but for the most part my tastes tend to blacks and asians with the occasional hispanic thrown in for good measure.
as for why...who knows? does it really matter? does it make me any worse or better of a person if i'm attracted mainly to minorities? i don't think so.
A little while ago, a lesbian friend of mine asked me whether, when I go to bars, I talked mostly to other anglos. I found the question kind of strange; I'd have a very dull time limiting myself to anglo guys in these parts. I don't think it's discrimination (at least not in a perjorative sense) to prefer one race over another; after all, I discriminate against women when seeking sex partners. We're not entirely in control of who we find attractive. An honest assessment of my own tastes is that while I often find Latin, Arab, and South Asian men attractive, I'm not typically attracted to black or east Asian men (maybe it's the lack of body hair?). But there are always exceptions...Greg Vaughn, mmmm...so I don't regard race as a critical factor in whether I'm interested in someone.
On the other hand, sometimes you encounter people who kind of fetishize the interracial aspect of a relationship, and seem attracted to people because of their race, rather than because of who they are. I'm not comfortable with that; I wouldn't call it racist, but it disturbs me a little. If I were flipping through personals, I'd probably avoid ones that specifically look for a white guy, though. But maybe that's unfair.
On the other hand, sometimes you encounter people who kind of fetishize the interracial aspect of a relationship, and seem attracted to people because of their race, rather than because of who they are. I'm not comfortable with that; I wouldn't call it racist, but it disturbs me a little. If I were flipping through personals, I'd probably avoid ones that specifically look for a white guy, though. But maybe that's unfair.
I don't have a problem with someone having a preference for the those of other ethnic backgrounds. If you're a black guy that is only attracted to Latino guys or an Asian that gets visual orgasms from Caucasians, then that is fine. My problem comes when one loses his own identity to liken himself to those to whom he's attracted and then totally ignores and discounts those of his own race.
2 points----- #1 I would be open to all types of men if I was single but some types DO attract me more than others. #2 Is it any better or worse having an ETHNIC fetish (I LOVE ITALIANS)- of course I like dark hair & eyes & if he has those I would be happy even if he was dark Irish or Hispanic. Its really the LOOK I like ... Don't really see how that is bad. Denzel is a hotty too - must be the dark hair & eyes !
Hey guys...Well another interesting topic. This one has got me thinking. I am a 49 year old black man. I have had plenty of black sex partners, but so far I have not dated a black man, and will would very much like to at this point in my life. In my explorations, I found that I had to confront my internal racism. For a long time, I lived in my own oppression. I did not believe I was handsome or sexy and in order to make myself feel better, I would only be interested in white men as sex objects as for me that was the definition of sexy. Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time with blinders on, I still find white men sexy, but there is a whole new world open to me now. I now see myself as a equal opportunity employer...Looking for a boyfriend, if anyone is intrested in an older mature ole grizzly bear.
I can see beauty in all races of people. This is an interesting subject for me since I am half asian and half white. Sexually I have for the most part been attracted to mainly caucasian guys, but I have always thought Asian women are the most beautiful women. I like other people of mixed races with very unique looks and still admire the qualities of all types of people.
Growing up gay is difficult as most here know, but I found this another challenge for me growing up and trying to find my identity. Because I couldnt consider myself white but I couldnt consider myself Asian either, now I'm glad its that way but as a kid it was tough.
[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: gp43 ]
Growing up gay is difficult as most here know, but I found this another challenge for me growing up and trying to find my identity. Because I couldnt consider myself white but I couldnt consider myself Asian either, now I'm glad its that way but as a kid it was tough.
[ December 07, 2002: Message edited by: gp43 ]
My life parallels sportinlife's:
*grew up in Detroit
*went to Georgetown University
*got involved in Australian business deals
AND:
*Having language talents has always kept me open to the possibility of any race, in addition to the fact that one of the few guys that I ever wanted to marry was deaf (accomplished, well-mannered guy (White) - hothothot to boot). We got pretty far in our "marriage question", but it was not meant to be.
*grew up in Detroit
*went to Georgetown University
*got involved in Australian business deals
AND:
*Having language talents has always kept me open to the possibility of any race, in addition to the fact that one of the few guys that I ever wanted to marry was deaf (accomplished, well-mannered guy (White) - hothothot to boot). We got pretty far in our "marriage question", but it was not meant to be.
[quote]Originally posted by Celtics4Life:
I think that people should just date what they like, even if it is for the wrong reasons, in most cases evetually things will work out the way they should. Relationships usually don't work that are based on superficial things.
C4L:
We all know that the guy who walks into the brothel with a "shopping list" of requirements is not going to find love - nevertheless, my opinion/understanding of relationships is that it's self-defeating to aspire only to mental, financial, and social characteristics in a potential partner.
I want to ask a guy out because I think that the sex will be good between (at least, for me.....), and I think that I would be willing to commit to the work, time, and efforts that a decent relationship requires.
Knowing how I need to be treated by a man, I would never pick someone just because they had "extra" in the basket department, or an incredible, huge luscious set of hips and thighs that switched just right (whew! THAT was fun typing!). But don't try to tell me that I should only be interested in a particular level of education, money, or status when the guy is coherent, able to handle himself well and a developing relationship, and has a physical characteristic that gives me a woody.
Some nerds are the HOTTEST men in the world, especially when they're well-rounded, muscular, and knowledgeable about what they want from a gay relationship. But, a man who has a dual Ph.D. in electrical engineering and astrophysics, drives a Lamborghini, possesses a 15" cock and invites me to Nairobi, Perth, or La Paz for our joint vacations will not satisfy if he's uncoordinated, selfish, perpetually offensive (or uncaring about a relationship), or otherwise unavaible.
When you know what you're looking for you can only help yourself and your potential dates.
- - - - -
If one is so superficial that he can't take his attention away from a few characteristics and focus on a developing relationship between two men, then that person does not deserve a partner.
[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
I think that people should just date what they like, even if it is for the wrong reasons, in most cases evetually things will work out the way they should. Relationships usually don't work that are based on superficial things.
C4L:
We all know that the guy who walks into the brothel with a "shopping list" of requirements is not going to find love - nevertheless, my opinion/understanding of relationships is that it's self-defeating to aspire only to mental, financial, and social characteristics in a potential partner.
I want to ask a guy out because I think that the sex will be good between (at least, for me.....), and I think that I would be willing to commit to the work, time, and efforts that a decent relationship requires.
Knowing how I need to be treated by a man, I would never pick someone just because they had "extra" in the basket department, or an incredible, huge luscious set of hips and thighs that switched just right (whew! THAT was fun typing!). But don't try to tell me that I should only be interested in a particular level of education, money, or status when the guy is coherent, able to handle himself well and a developing relationship, and has a physical characteristic that gives me a woody.
Some nerds are the HOTTEST men in the world, especially when they're well-rounded, muscular, and knowledgeable about what they want from a gay relationship. But, a man who has a dual Ph.D. in electrical engineering and astrophysics, drives a Lamborghini, possesses a 15" cock and invites me to Nairobi, Perth, or La Paz for our joint vacations will not satisfy if he's uncoordinated, selfish, perpetually offensive (or uncaring about a relationship), or otherwise unavaible.
When you know what you're looking for you can only help yourself and your potential dates.
- - - - -
If one is so superficial that he can't take his attention away from a few characteristics and focus on a developing relationship between two men, then that person does not deserve a partner.
[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
This is a very interesting topic indeed!! This is also a very touchy subject, especially for me, being a black male, after I first got out of the military in 1998, and having not dated or had sex with any other race, except those of the Caucasian race. It was not that I didn't find other races attractive, it was just that I worked with and primarily bunked with (in military barracks) white guys.
I went into the military as a straight guy (or what I thought was straight) in '92 at the ripe old age of 17, right out of high school, and left as a bi-sexual male in '98. I am proud that I obtained my Bachelor's degree while I was in, especially after you read a brief synopsis of my story. I was a Computer/Radio Operator and escort driver (figuratively, not literally or physically)in the Army. This job kept me in close contact with mostly officers. An officer (who was white) brought me out of the closet, while I was out in the field (training with high tech equipment) and we even developed a relationship, that lasted for over a year. That all happened during my first year in the military. I later dated and had sex with other white guys, mostly officers, but I still dated and had sex with women, mostly of black, latino, or oriental ethnicity. I know most of you may be saying by now, this sounds like a topic that should go on the Jenny Jones, Rikki Lake, or Jerry Springer shows. The show could be titled, "People who only like women of one race, but men of another. It is actually not like that all. Since I was honorably discharged in '98, I have been in a relationship with a black male.
I did have alot of identity issues when I first began to go to clubs and socializing, after I first got out of the military. I would only accept the advances of white guys, but yet at the same time, for the first time in my life, I had black gay friends. For a short period of time, I was called a "snow queen" and other names associated with a black gay male who only liked white guys, but I didn't see it that way. I saw guys from all races as being handsome, intelligent, and funny, but I just seemed to always end up with a white guy. I was awakened to my dilemma in a big way, when one of my real good friends, who was black, informed me that he wanted to take our friendship to another level. Although, he had always made sexual innuendos and I always thought he was handsome, had a great body and personality, I spurned his advances, and consequently, he no longer wanted to be friends. I was single at the time, and ironically, started dating a black male, shortly thereafter, but not because of that incident. My partner and I just meshed well, he was beautiful in and out, and he was super intelligent, which is very important to me. I now see men of all colors, creeds, and ethnicities, being beautiful in their own way. I am a 28 yr old black gay male now, single, happy, and I am glad to have experienced things on both sides of this topic. I think that we all need to keep an open mind when it comes to relationships. You are selling yourself short and missing out on some great and unique people that you could meet, instead of limiting yourself to one race. But, I am not going to knock anyone else's preference.
I went into the military as a straight guy (or what I thought was straight) in '92 at the ripe old age of 17, right out of high school, and left as a bi-sexual male in '98. I am proud that I obtained my Bachelor's degree while I was in, especially after you read a brief synopsis of my story. I was a Computer/Radio Operator and escort driver (figuratively, not literally or physically)in the Army. This job kept me in close contact with mostly officers. An officer (who was white) brought me out of the closet, while I was out in the field (training with high tech equipment) and we even developed a relationship, that lasted for over a year. That all happened during my first year in the military. I later dated and had sex with other white guys, mostly officers, but I still dated and had sex with women, mostly of black, latino, or oriental ethnicity. I know most of you may be saying by now, this sounds like a topic that should go on the Jenny Jones, Rikki Lake, or Jerry Springer shows. The show could be titled, "People who only like women of one race, but men of another. It is actually not like that all. Since I was honorably discharged in '98, I have been in a relationship with a black male.
I did have alot of identity issues when I first began to go to clubs and socializing, after I first got out of the military. I would only accept the advances of white guys, but yet at the same time, for the first time in my life, I had black gay friends. For a short period of time, I was called a "snow queen" and other names associated with a black gay male who only liked white guys, but I didn't see it that way. I saw guys from all races as being handsome, intelligent, and funny, but I just seemed to always end up with a white guy. I was awakened to my dilemma in a big way, when one of my real good friends, who was black, informed me that he wanted to take our friendship to another level. Although, he had always made sexual innuendos and I always thought he was handsome, had a great body and personality, I spurned his advances, and consequently, he no longer wanted to be friends. I was single at the time, and ironically, started dating a black male, shortly thereafter, but not because of that incident. My partner and I just meshed well, he was beautiful in and out, and he was super intelligent, which is very important to me. I now see men of all colors, creeds, and ethnicities, being beautiful in their own way. I am a 28 yr old black gay male now, single, happy, and I am glad to have experienced things on both sides of this topic. I think that we all need to keep an open mind when it comes to relationships. You are selling yourself short and missing out on some great and unique people that you could meet, instead of limiting yourself to one race. But, I am not going to knock anyone else's preference.
[quote]Originally posted by Theo:
I don't have a problem with someone having a preference for the those of other ethnic backgrounds. If you're a black guy that is only attracted to Latino guys or an Asian that gets visual orgasms from Caucasians, then that is fine. My problem comes when one loses his own identity to liken himself to those to whom he's attracted and then totally ignores and discounts those of his own race.
I concur. In my years of being a Black/Latino man (last time I checked, this was still the case) in and out of the gay scene (15 yrs.), I have also found that many men of color who do date exclusively outside of their own race would not admit to having such exclusionary preferences, yet their history screams out otherwise. Strangely, they tend to couch their preferences with excuses like "I would date a good Black man but I never meet one" or "I seem to have more in common with White men". You attract what you seek, and you repel what you do not. Since I tend not to respect dishonesty and self-loathing behavior, I used to find this repulsive, but now I just shake my head and move on from the clueless f**ks. I'd have far more respect for them if they were self-aware enough to simply say something like, "I'm Black and don't find other Black men attractive".
Another strange phenomenon (which has been discussed ad nauseum amongst me and my buddies) is the tendency for the Black partner in a White-Black couple to be the "better catch" of the two, be it physically or intellectually -- whether straight or gay. This seems to stem from racial self-hate (unfortunately yet understandably) suffered by many African-Americans and Latinos and the perception that White skin in a partner is always some magic Trump Card while Black skin is the perpetual two of diamonds. That same Black man would place unreasonably high standards on any potential Black man he would date (he must look like Rick Fox, make as much money as Puff Daddy, and have the education of Condoleeza Rice, yet quite often the White dating partner would tend to look like Potsie Weber or Ralph Malph from Happy Days, have as little money as Homer Simpson, and the education of an Al Bundy).
I am almost exclusively interested in Black and Latino men (I say "almost" because I never say never, but my overwhelming and principal interest, for me, lies in a strong Black man). But if I were to date a White man, most likely it would NOT be the kind who's exclusively attracted to Black men or Latinos, as I find their behavior far too pandering and objectifying for my tastes. And the presumption of White privilege is a characteristic that I do find really odious.
Case in point:
I am doing some business right now with the former boyfriend (who is White) of one of my best friends (who is Black). As far as that couple went, the White guy, in the looks and personality department, clearly was the inferior party. Anyway, during a casual conversation, I mentioned that I had a very good-looking Black friend who knows plenty of well-built, athletic, attractive Black men. When he heard that, the first thing out of this guy's mouth was, "can you call him to see if he will hook me up with someone?". He did not even stop to think if he was in the same league as these guys (which he's NOT), or if they would even be interested in meeting him (which they probably would NOT). He just heard "Black and very attractive" and threw himself right in there! Funny, when I mention to him groups of highly attractive Caucasian men, he never seems to think he would fit right in, or that they would even be remotely interested in him... but put throw some A-list Black men out there, and he immediately thinks he is in their league.
And I'm not even going to mention a certain very handsome Black NFL player I recently saw a few times at gay bars literally throwing himself at unattractive Caucasian patrons, rubbing himself all over them, while literally turning his nose up at some very handsome Black patrons (not even being polite to them). But then again, he's a complete drunk and clearly has major destructive, self-loathing issues. OK, so maybe I just did mention it.
Gay Black folklore has it that there are certain U.S. cities and regions where it's almost impossible for two men of color to meet each other for romantic/sexual interest. Places like Denver, Boston, San Francisco (NOT Oakland), Columbus, and Austin, and even to a greater extent LA and Southern California, have very strong White gay communities and weak Black gay presences, combined with de-emphasis on Black culture in those cities at large, then PRESTO... instant breeding for "snow queens". It's funny to see some of these men of color move to places like DC, NYC and Atlanta (where there is a plethora of Black gay men and activity) and suddenly rediscover their roots.
I don't have a problem with someone having a preference for the those of other ethnic backgrounds. If you're a black guy that is only attracted to Latino guys or an Asian that gets visual orgasms from Caucasians, then that is fine. My problem comes when one loses his own identity to liken himself to those to whom he's attracted and then totally ignores and discounts those of his own race.
I concur. In my years of being a Black/Latino man (last time I checked, this was still the case) in and out of the gay scene (15 yrs.), I have also found that many men of color who do date exclusively outside of their own race would not admit to having such exclusionary preferences, yet their history screams out otherwise. Strangely, they tend to couch their preferences with excuses like "I would date a good Black man but I never meet one" or "I seem to have more in common with White men". You attract what you seek, and you repel what you do not. Since I tend not to respect dishonesty and self-loathing behavior, I used to find this repulsive, but now I just shake my head and move on from the clueless f**ks. I'd have far more respect for them if they were self-aware enough to simply say something like, "I'm Black and don't find other Black men attractive".
Another strange phenomenon (which has been discussed ad nauseum amongst me and my buddies) is the tendency for the Black partner in a White-Black couple to be the "better catch" of the two, be it physically or intellectually -- whether straight or gay. This seems to stem from racial self-hate (unfortunately yet understandably) suffered by many African-Americans and Latinos and the perception that White skin in a partner is always some magic Trump Card while Black skin is the perpetual two of diamonds. That same Black man would place unreasonably high standards on any potential Black man he would date (he must look like Rick Fox, make as much money as Puff Daddy, and have the education of Condoleeza Rice, yet quite often the White dating partner would tend to look like Potsie Weber or Ralph Malph from Happy Days, have as little money as Homer Simpson, and the education of an Al Bundy).
I am almost exclusively interested in Black and Latino men (I say "almost" because I never say never, but my overwhelming and principal interest, for me, lies in a strong Black man). But if I were to date a White man, most likely it would NOT be the kind who's exclusively attracted to Black men or Latinos, as I find their behavior far too pandering and objectifying for my tastes. And the presumption of White privilege is a characteristic that I do find really odious.
Case in point:
I am doing some business right now with the former boyfriend (who is White) of one of my best friends (who is Black). As far as that couple went, the White guy, in the looks and personality department, clearly was the inferior party. Anyway, during a casual conversation, I mentioned that I had a very good-looking Black friend who knows plenty of well-built, athletic, attractive Black men. When he heard that, the first thing out of this guy's mouth was, "can you call him to see if he will hook me up with someone?". He did not even stop to think if he was in the same league as these guys (which he's NOT), or if they would even be interested in meeting him (which they probably would NOT). He just heard "Black and very attractive" and threw himself right in there! Funny, when I mention to him groups of highly attractive Caucasian men, he never seems to think he would fit right in, or that they would even be remotely interested in him... but put throw some A-list Black men out there, and he immediately thinks he is in their league.
And I'm not even going to mention a certain very handsome Black NFL player I recently saw a few times at gay bars literally throwing himself at unattractive Caucasian patrons, rubbing himself all over them, while literally turning his nose up at some very handsome Black patrons (not even being polite to them). But then again, he's a complete drunk and clearly has major destructive, self-loathing issues. OK, so maybe I just did mention it.
Gay Black folklore has it that there are certain U.S. cities and regions where it's almost impossible for two men of color to meet each other for romantic/sexual interest. Places like Denver, Boston, San Francisco (NOT Oakland), Columbus, and Austin, and even to a greater extent LA and Southern California, have very strong White gay communities and weak Black gay presences, combined with de-emphasis on Black culture in those cities at large, then PRESTO... instant breeding for "snow queens". It's funny to see some of these men of color move to places like DC, NYC and Atlanta (where there is a plethora of Black gay men and activity) and suddenly rediscover their roots.
Curses!
I was just about to go to bed but wanted to breeze thru outsports. Now I have to post a reply or I won't be able to sleep. I think identity is crazy and dating makes it crazy.
I grew up black identified but I have a lot of native american which my family doesn't claim because it was important to be black and successful to fight comments of the self hating black who claims Cherokee because African is seen as negative thing. So I am trying to get comfortable with that in me.
So dating, I grew up in a black community and knew gay men, but they were all flamers. When I went to college, all of the black gay men I knew were flamers. i have flamer friends, but I only fooled around with the masculine gay men I found which were white men. It wasn't just other people, I also had issues with my own masculinity and thought of two black men together as bringing down our manhood even more given society's treatment of black men. Racialized homophobia. I also felt rejected by the black community and subsequently dated rejects from the white community, mostly skaters and those in the punk scene. But then I moved out to the east coast and got more comfortable with my sexuality.
What I found was that I was a dumbass for a lot of years. There were masculine gay men of color all around me, I just didn't know how to let myself find them. I kick myself just thinking about not trying to cruise my college gym or football playing acquaintances. But then again, I thought being with a black dude meant that my family would hear of it sooner or later so the white community was also a closet that I could disappear into.
Yea, so, East coast. Multicultural dater. I found goodness with black, native american, chinese, vietnamese, mexican, puerto rican, ethiopian, and white men. It was good. Along the way I found out more about other people and places. I have a white friend who told me that he often times dates men of color because he only feels like an average looking white guy and he knows that his whiteness will add a couple of points to his stylo for a man of color. It didn't work on me, but the guys he dated seemed to fall into that trap for some reason. And I did feel really weird in SanFran this summer when I went out for pride. Every black man I saw was in an interracial coupling and those who weren't didn't even give me a second glance while looking at the crusty, flavorless, elderly white men around me. I felt like shit. Funny, though I met my current boyfriend while in San Francisco.
He is a white skater. This might be read into as going back to an old pattern, but what I've found is that I am getting to know myself better and realized that I like my personality opposite - impulsive, loud, crazy, no matter what race. But I recognize that we have to work harder to understand one another and fight through issues of white privilege, etc. otherwise it won't work out. I never cared about this with other white boys because I never saw myself in a long term relationship with a white man. I was going to marry a black woman. My two cents. Jay
[Edited by Tarkus to clear up formatting issues]
[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: Tarkus ]
I was just about to go to bed but wanted to breeze thru outsports. Now I have to post a reply or I won't be able to sleep. I think identity is crazy and dating makes it crazy.
I grew up black identified but I have a lot of native american which my family doesn't claim because it was important to be black and successful to fight comments of the self hating black who claims Cherokee because African is seen as negative thing. So I am trying to get comfortable with that in me.
So dating, I grew up in a black community and knew gay men, but they were all flamers. When I went to college, all of the black gay men I knew were flamers. i have flamer friends, but I only fooled around with the masculine gay men I found which were white men. It wasn't just other people, I also had issues with my own masculinity and thought of two black men together as bringing down our manhood even more given society's treatment of black men. Racialized homophobia. I also felt rejected by the black community and subsequently dated rejects from the white community, mostly skaters and those in the punk scene. But then I moved out to the east coast and got more comfortable with my sexuality.
What I found was that I was a dumbass for a lot of years. There were masculine gay men of color all around me, I just didn't know how to let myself find them. I kick myself just thinking about not trying to cruise my college gym or football playing acquaintances. But then again, I thought being with a black dude meant that my family would hear of it sooner or later so the white community was also a closet that I could disappear into.
Yea, so, East coast. Multicultural dater. I found goodness with black, native american, chinese, vietnamese, mexican, puerto rican, ethiopian, and white men. It was good. Along the way I found out more about other people and places. I have a white friend who told me that he often times dates men of color because he only feels like an average looking white guy and he knows that his whiteness will add a couple of points to his stylo for a man of color. It didn't work on me, but the guys he dated seemed to fall into that trap for some reason. And I did feel really weird in SanFran this summer when I went out for pride. Every black man I saw was in an interracial coupling and those who weren't didn't even give me a second glance while looking at the crusty, flavorless, elderly white men around me. I felt like shit. Funny, though I met my current boyfriend while in San Francisco.
He is a white skater. This might be read into as going back to an old pattern, but what I've found is that I am getting to know myself better and realized that I like my personality opposite - impulsive, loud, crazy, no matter what race. But I recognize that we have to work harder to understand one another and fight through issues of white privilege, etc. otherwise it won't work out. I never cared about this with other white boys because I never saw myself in a long term relationship with a white man. I was going to marry a black woman. My two cents. Jay
[Edited by Tarkus to clear up formatting issues]
[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: Tarkus ]
[quote]Originally posted by jay original:
i have a white friend who told me
that he often times dates men of color because
he only feels like an average looking white
guy and he knows that his whiteness will add
a couple of points to his stylo for a man of
color. it didn't work on me, but the guys he
dated seemed to fall into that trap for some
reason. and i did feel really weird in sanfran
this summer when i went out for pride. every
black man i saw was in an interracial coupling
and those who weren't didn't even give me a
second glance while looking at the crusty,
flavorless, elderly white men around me.
Exactly!
When Black Self-Hate meets White Privilege, the two make such a lovely couple.
i have a white friend who told me
that he often times dates men of color because
he only feels like an average looking white
guy and he knows that his whiteness will add
a couple of points to his stylo for a man of
color. it didn't work on me, but the guys he
dated seemed to fall into that trap for some
reason. and i did feel really weird in sanfran
this summer when i went out for pride. every
black man i saw was in an interracial coupling
and those who weren't didn't even give me a
second glance while looking at the crusty,
flavorless, elderly white men around me.
Exactly!
When Black Self-Hate meets White Privilege, the two make such a lovely couple.
Great Thread guys. I find it interesting that most of the replys have been from men of color. I am cool with that because I have found the post on this thread to be very intellegent and heart felt. It did get me to thinking that the vast majority of mainstream urban white men, would not consider dating a man of color. They may satisfy their curiosity in a sexual situation like a sex club or a bath house, but would never share their lives with a man from a different culture,race, or even class in some instances. Here is a question to you big city urban white boys...Why not? Just a question for you to ponder really. As for me, I think the only really sexy men are ones that are interested in and available to me. The rest is eye candy, and at my old age mercy f***ing is disrespectful to both parties. Just say no.
[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: blkbear ]
[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: blkbear ]
Perhaps I shouldn't get into this, because I haven't that much experience with black/white interracial couples, but...
with excuses like "I would date a good Black man but I never meet one" or "I seem to have more in common with White men".
Don't you think the latter could easily be true for a black guy who grew up in a predominantly white suburb?
the tendency for the Black partner in a White-Black couple to be the "better catch" of the two
Don't you think part of this may be the fact that you find black men more attractive than white men?
Your whole post seems to suggest that all men are stratified into different grades of attractiveness that everybody agrees on, and no one should expect to date someone more attractive than themselves. It reminds me of Pride and Prejudice, only looks are substituting for class.
I have had a long-term relationship with a man that probably was significantly less physically attractive than me, and he wasn't richer or better educated (I have a doctorate). I've also been hit on by men that I considered way more attractive than myself.
I was in a bar with a friend and there was not a single person there that we both found attractive. And even if you recognize that by some more objective social standard a person is unattractive or attractive, that doesn't necessary govern your own response. I know Tom Cruise is really attractive, but I'd rather sleep with Kevin Smith.
There's a guy I think is so beautiful--powerfully muscled and perfectly proportioned--that I have trouble speaking to him. Yet other people looking at that same guy see a short, balding, nerdy-looking guy.
And the same is true of intellectual attractiveness. I have a friend who is one of the most brilliant, knowledgeable, and talented people I've ever met. He used to win math contests in high school, is unbeatable at trivia games, plays a mean jazz saxophone (his main source of income), has done stand-up comedy and written jokes for radio stations, and also writes short stories and poetry. So I would consider him an incredible catch (except that he's straight) intellectually--but other people would see a guy with no college degree and no steady job. But for my money, he's a hell of a lot more interesting than the vast majority of doctors, lawyers, and MBA's I've met. For that matter, is the nerd-Adonis I mentioned earlier an even bigger catch because he has an M.A., or less of one because he works as a bartender? People look for different things.
Furthermore, if we seek someone different from ourselves does it really mean we hate ourselves? You could just as easily argue that you prefer other black men because you're narcissistic.
It's funny to see some of these men of color move to places like DC, NYC and Atlanta (where there is a plethora of Black gay men and activity) and suddenly rediscover their roots
They were never Snow Queens to begin with. The last three guys I've dated have been Mexican-American. It's not that I've suddenly acquired a Latino fetish--it's just that's what's available on the local market. If I were to move back to my home town, I'd date mostly white men again, but it wouldn't be because I was "rediscovering my roots".
with excuses like "I would date a good Black man but I never meet one" or "I seem to have more in common with White men".
Don't you think the latter could easily be true for a black guy who grew up in a predominantly white suburb?
the tendency for the Black partner in a White-Black couple to be the "better catch" of the two
Don't you think part of this may be the fact that you find black men more attractive than white men?
Your whole post seems to suggest that all men are stratified into different grades of attractiveness that everybody agrees on, and no one should expect to date someone more attractive than themselves. It reminds me of Pride and Prejudice, only looks are substituting for class.
I have had a long-term relationship with a man that probably was significantly less physically attractive than me, and he wasn't richer or better educated (I have a doctorate). I've also been hit on by men that I considered way more attractive than myself.
I was in a bar with a friend and there was not a single person there that we both found attractive. And even if you recognize that by some more objective social standard a person is unattractive or attractive, that doesn't necessary govern your own response. I know Tom Cruise is really attractive, but I'd rather sleep with Kevin Smith.
There's a guy I think is so beautiful--powerfully muscled and perfectly proportioned--that I have trouble speaking to him. Yet other people looking at that same guy see a short, balding, nerdy-looking guy.
And the same is true of intellectual attractiveness. I have a friend who is one of the most brilliant, knowledgeable, and talented people I've ever met. He used to win math contests in high school, is unbeatable at trivia games, plays a mean jazz saxophone (his main source of income), has done stand-up comedy and written jokes for radio stations, and also writes short stories and poetry. So I would consider him an incredible catch (except that he's straight) intellectually--but other people would see a guy with no college degree and no steady job. But for my money, he's a hell of a lot more interesting than the vast majority of doctors, lawyers, and MBA's I've met. For that matter, is the nerd-Adonis I mentioned earlier an even bigger catch because he has an M.A., or less of one because he works as a bartender? People look for different things.
Furthermore, if we seek someone different from ourselves does it really mean we hate ourselves? You could just as easily argue that you prefer other black men because you're narcissistic.
It's funny to see some of these men of color move to places like DC, NYC and Atlanta (where there is a plethora of Black gay men and activity) and suddenly rediscover their roots
They were never Snow Queens to begin with. The last three guys I've dated have been Mexican-American. It's not that I've suddenly acquired a Latino fetish--it's just that's what's available on the local market. If I were to move back to my home town, I'd date mostly white men again, but it wouldn't be because I was "rediscovering my roots".
[quote]Originally posted by YellaDawg:
And I'm not even going to mention a certain very handsome Black NFL player I recently saw a few times at gay bars literally throwing himself at unattractive Caucasian patrons, rubbing himself all over them, while literally turning his nose up at some very handsome Black patrons (not even being polite to them). But then again, he's a complete drunk and clearly has major destructive, self-loathing issues. OK, so maybe I just did mention it.
Dude, your posts as usual are unique among the many insights on the board.
Some comments were worth LOL, or even ROFLMAO (which is "rolling on the floor laughing my ass off" as another poster informed me), but the one I quote above is most informative.
I have long noticed similar such said (sad?) behavior among physically and intellectually "desirable" black men, but would not be quite as harsh or insensitive when speaking about it: it prevents more in-depth analysis.
We're all fallen angels when it comes to understanding and controlling our carnal desires.
I had a sexual affair with a fair-skinned African-American doctor shortly before I met my white Aussie boyfriend. After my boyfriend and I became a couple, we attended a "risque" bare-as-you-dare party given by said doctor at his house in a popular gay resort.
I thought the guy was nice, though there was some obvious tension between him and my partner. They were civil but never friendly. I also think it was jealousy, though neither would ever, ever admit that jealousy at any level, or in any way had a part in it.
My guy (BTW: he hates being called that, it sounds to sporty/pretentious) has a low opinion of many doctors because he's worked with a lot of them and finds many...wanting..on several levels: intellectual, moral, etc.
My personal opinion is that they are both carrying some baggage. The doctor's is racial, my boyfriend's is intellectual: I think the fact that he was too squeamish to ever become a doctor even though he has better credentials than most of them (honors at Oxford with an emphasis in a scientific field), still annoys him.
The aforementioned doctor seemed surprised that I eventually wound up with this foreign white guy instead of him. We soon lost contact.
Though the reasons I ended up with my BF rather than the doctor are far, far too complex to bore everyone here with, I can state definitively that neither race nor intellect was a determining factor.
Though my BF does not come with the same "racial baggage" as the average white male US citizen, he certainly has some, IMO, preconceptions that pop up now and then. I'm sure the doctor would have shown similar shortcomings of some type had I pursued a more than sexual relationship with him. (I'm sure that either of them could gleefully point out my shortcomings as well ).
It's difficult to establish an equal relationship in a world that does not treat both parties in the relationship as equals. A lot of self-esteem and soul-searching is required..for both.
I'm relating this specific, personal story because I'd rather avoid generalizations about such an emotion-laden topic.
Hope it helps.
And I'm not even going to mention a certain very handsome Black NFL player I recently saw a few times at gay bars literally throwing himself at unattractive Caucasian patrons, rubbing himself all over them, while literally turning his nose up at some very handsome Black patrons (not even being polite to them). But then again, he's a complete drunk and clearly has major destructive, self-loathing issues. OK, so maybe I just did mention it.
Dude, your posts as usual are unique among the many insights on the board.
Some comments were worth LOL, or even ROFLMAO (which is "rolling on the floor laughing my ass off" as another poster informed me), but the one I quote above is most informative.
I have long noticed similar such said (sad?) behavior among physically and intellectually "desirable" black men, but would not be quite as harsh or insensitive when speaking about it: it prevents more in-depth analysis.
We're all fallen angels when it comes to understanding and controlling our carnal desires.
I had a sexual affair with a fair-skinned African-American doctor shortly before I met my white Aussie boyfriend. After my boyfriend and I became a couple, we attended a "risque" bare-as-you-dare party given by said doctor at his house in a popular gay resort.
I thought the guy was nice, though there was some obvious tension between him and my partner. They were civil but never friendly. I also think it was jealousy, though neither would ever, ever admit that jealousy at any level, or in any way had a part in it.
My guy (BTW: he hates being called that, it sounds to sporty/pretentious) has a low opinion of many doctors because he's worked with a lot of them and finds many...wanting..on several levels: intellectual, moral, etc.
My personal opinion is that they are both carrying some baggage. The doctor's is racial, my boyfriend's is intellectual: I think the fact that he was too squeamish to ever become a doctor even though he has better credentials than most of them (honors at Oxford with an emphasis in a scientific field), still annoys him.
The aforementioned doctor seemed surprised that I eventually wound up with this foreign white guy instead of him. We soon lost contact.
Though the reasons I ended up with my BF rather than the doctor are far, far too complex to bore everyone here with, I can state definitively that neither race nor intellect was a determining factor.
Though my BF does not come with the same "racial baggage" as the average white male US citizen, he certainly has some, IMO, preconceptions that pop up now and then. I'm sure the doctor would have shown similar shortcomings of some type had I pursued a more than sexual relationship with him. (I'm sure that either of them could gleefully point out my shortcomings as well ).
It's difficult to establish an equal relationship in a world that does not treat both parties in the relationship as equals. A lot of self-esteem and soul-searching is required..for both.
I'm relating this specific, personal story because I'd rather avoid generalizations about such an emotion-laden topic.
Hope it helps.
JC, I will attempt to answer your questions.
[quote]Originally posted by JC:
[qb]with excuses like "I would date a good Black man but I never meet one" or "I seem to have more in common with White men".
Don't you think the latter could easily be true for a black guy who grew up in a predominantly white suburb?
Not necessarily. I grew up in overwhelmingly White suburbs, went to overwhelmingly White schools and work in overwhelmingly White environments, and am interested primarily in men of color. I know plenty of Black men who grew up similarly who feel the same way. In fact, most "snow queens" that I have met usually did not grow up in predominantly White environments, but curiously admired them from afar. That might explain why they might tend to internally inflate the value of it.
[quote]
the tendency for the Black partner in a White-Black couple to be the "better catch" of the two
Don't you think part of this may be the fact that you find black men more attractive than white men?
No.
[quote]Your whole post seems to suggest that all men are stratified into different grades of attractiveness that everybody agrees on, and no one should expect to date someone more attractive than themselves. It reminds me of Pride and Prejudice, only looks are substituting for class.
As politically incorrect as this seems, I AM referring to a general consensus of attractiveness, beauty or desirability. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and cannot be agreed upon universally, but even the most basic sociological, psychological and anthroplogical studies show that people tend to date and mate remaining within their own publically and personally perceived levels of attractiveness. I recall one popular study that showed 1,000 individual pictures of dating and married partners (straight and gay, without their partner in the pic) to a large focus group and asked them to rate each person in the picture on their attractiveness, on a scale of 1 to 10. 97% of the persons in the picture fit within 2 "beauty points" of their partner, and 82% fit within 1 beauty point. Like it or not, people don't date outside of their "league". Of course, this study, done in the late 80s, did not include any interracial couples at all. Someone should do a similar study but this time throw in some mixed couples. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on my theory of the White member of the interracial couple being more than just 2 "beauty points" behind the partner of color, especially in same-sex relationships.
[quote]Furthermore, if we seek someone different from ourselves does it really mean we hate ourselves? You could just as easily argue that you prefer other black men because you're narcissistic.
No, it doesn't mean that one hates what he is if he is attracted to what he is not. However, when one EXCLUDES his own race -- what he sees when he looks in the mirror, what his own parents, brothers and sisters are -- and does not view them as viable or suitable dating partners, specifically when that person comes from a group that historically and currently is belittled, denigrated, objectified, hated, tortured and enslaved, not to mention not considered the Gold Standard of Beauty, then yes, that stems from self-hate. You as a White guy have the luxury not to view it this way, but excluding someone as a dating partner because they share the same color of your skin is not the same as simply wanting someone who is "different" than you. This isn't quite the same dynamic as, say, being a blond guy who likes brunettes, or a shy guy who wants an outgoing boyfriend. The last time I checked, no one whipped, chained and enslaved shy guys for 400 years in this country. At least not involuntarily.
[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
[quote]Originally posted by JC:
[qb]with excuses like "I would date a good Black man but I never meet one" or "I seem to have more in common with White men".
Don't you think the latter could easily be true for a black guy who grew up in a predominantly white suburb?
Not necessarily. I grew up in overwhelmingly White suburbs, went to overwhelmingly White schools and work in overwhelmingly White environments, and am interested primarily in men of color. I know plenty of Black men who grew up similarly who feel the same way. In fact, most "snow queens" that I have met usually did not grow up in predominantly White environments, but curiously admired them from afar. That might explain why they might tend to internally inflate the value of it.
[quote]
the tendency for the Black partner in a White-Black couple to be the "better catch" of the two
Don't you think part of this may be the fact that you find black men more attractive than white men?
No.
[quote]Your whole post seems to suggest that all men are stratified into different grades of attractiveness that everybody agrees on, and no one should expect to date someone more attractive than themselves. It reminds me of Pride and Prejudice, only looks are substituting for class.
As politically incorrect as this seems, I AM referring to a general consensus of attractiveness, beauty or desirability. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and cannot be agreed upon universally, but even the most basic sociological, psychological and anthroplogical studies show that people tend to date and mate remaining within their own publically and personally perceived levels of attractiveness. I recall one popular study that showed 1,000 individual pictures of dating and married partners (straight and gay, without their partner in the pic) to a large focus group and asked them to rate each person in the picture on their attractiveness, on a scale of 1 to 10. 97% of the persons in the picture fit within 2 "beauty points" of their partner, and 82% fit within 1 beauty point. Like it or not, people don't date outside of their "league". Of course, this study, done in the late 80s, did not include any interracial couples at all. Someone should do a similar study but this time throw in some mixed couples. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on my theory of the White member of the interracial couple being more than just 2 "beauty points" behind the partner of color, especially in same-sex relationships.
[quote]Furthermore, if we seek someone different from ourselves does it really mean we hate ourselves? You could just as easily argue that you prefer other black men because you're narcissistic.
No, it doesn't mean that one hates what he is if he is attracted to what he is not. However, when one EXCLUDES his own race -- what he sees when he looks in the mirror, what his own parents, brothers and sisters are -- and does not view them as viable or suitable dating partners, specifically when that person comes from a group that historically and currently is belittled, denigrated, objectified, hated, tortured and enslaved, not to mention not considered the Gold Standard of Beauty, then yes, that stems from self-hate. You as a White guy have the luxury not to view it this way, but excluding someone as a dating partner because they share the same color of your skin is not the same as simply wanting someone who is "different" than you. This isn't quite the same dynamic as, say, being a blond guy who likes brunettes, or a shy guy who wants an outgoing boyfriend. The last time I checked, no one whipped, chained and enslaved shy guys for 400 years in this country. At least not involuntarily.
[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
To a great degree, I think that BOTH Yella Dawg and JC have valid points.
And YellaDawg: thanks for making the breakdown of this issue clear in this thread.
I hadn't heard anything about that attractiveness study (didn't know there WERE such things) - interesting.
[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
And YellaDawg: thanks for making the breakdown of this issue clear in this thread.
I hadn't heard anything about that attractiveness study (didn't know there WERE such things) - interesting.
[ December 09, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
This is a very interesting topic. For reference, I am Asian-American and my partner of 8 years is white. The strange thing for us is most people we meet assume he is a rice queen, which he is not. He is very race open, he likes thin guys with a youthful look. As it is, most Asian men look young for their age and are thin. For me, I like bigger guys with body hair. (Bears, yum!) Blue eyes tend to do it for me too. So I am nearly exclusively attracted to white men (big white men). For a long time this bothered me. I felt that it might have something to do with my upbringing in a predominately white neighborhood, but in graduate school many of my gay international friends are also attracted to white men. Media exposure may also have had its influence.
Self-esteem-wise this whole attraction thing has been difficult too. Since I find bearish men attractive, I find myself unattractive. While my partner is a really hot bear, he does not find bears attractive and does not find himself attractive. While this all works out with my finding him exceedingly attractive, and his finding me attractive, we do have self-esteem issues.
Self-esteem-wise this whole attraction thing has been difficult too. Since I find bearish men attractive, I find myself unattractive. While my partner is a really hot bear, he does not find bears attractive and does not find himself attractive. While this all works out with my finding him exceedingly attractive, and his finding me attractive, we do have self-esteem issues.
[quote]Originally posted by orsino4:
Self-esteem-wise this whole attraction thing has been difficult too. Since I find bearish men attractive, I find myself unattractive. While my partner is a really hot bear, he does not find bears attractive and does not find himself attractive. While this all works out with my finding him exceedingly attractive, and his finding me attractive, we do have self-esteem issues.
I find this to be a truly sanguine statement on the matter.
But, your relationship of mutual obssession does not mean that you both are lacking in self esteem. If either of you pulled away from the relationship and did not allow it to grow naturally - I would then question it.....
You guys' relationship sounds cool.
Self-esteem-wise this whole attraction thing has been difficult too. Since I find bearish men attractive, I find myself unattractive. While my partner is a really hot bear, he does not find bears attractive and does not find himself attractive. While this all works out with my finding him exceedingly attractive, and his finding me attractive, we do have self-esteem issues.
I find this to be a truly sanguine statement on the matter.
But, your relationship of mutual obssession does not mean that you both are lacking in self esteem. If either of you pulled away from the relationship and did not allow it to grow naturally - I would then question it.....
You guys' relationship sounds cool.
Physical attraction, I think is a combination of a lot of influences. Each varies from one individual to another. It's difficult, and often not useful to generalize. Pictures can speak volumes. In random order, I find all three of these faces of NFL players attractive:
Michael Lewis
Justin Ena
Jon McGraw
Body type, symmetry, facial expression all paly a part in their appeal. If I knew their personalities, that too would affect what I think of their appearance.
A person's attitude does, IMO, affect the way a person looks. It's often visible just from a photo, but that may depend on the persons mood at the time, or comfort level with being photographed.
Michael Lewis
Justin Ena
Jon McGraw
Body type, symmetry, facial expression all paly a part in their appeal. If I knew their personalities, that too would affect what I think of their appearance.
A person's attitude does, IMO, affect the way a person looks. It's often visible just from a photo, but that may depend on the persons mood at the time, or comfort level with being photographed.
[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
Body type, symmetry, facial expression all paly a part in their appeal. If I knew their personalities, that too would affect what I think of their appearance.
Well, different people (from different walks of life), at different stages in life, in different parts of the world, are going to find attractive ANY NUMBER of attributes.
I also think POWER is a central issue in what people find attractive.
Even the word attractive can be relegated to the realms of abstraction: what is "attractive" in business, or for living room furtniture, is not at all what people find attractive in human beings.
And when you say the word "attractive", everyone is going to have a different set pictures come up.....
Body type, symmetry, facial expression all paly a part in their appeal. If I knew their personalities, that too would affect what I think of their appearance.
Well, different people (from different walks of life), at different stages in life, in different parts of the world, are going to find attractive ANY NUMBER of attributes.
I also think POWER is a central issue in what people find attractive.
Even the word attractive can be relegated to the realms of abstraction: what is "attractive" in business, or for living room furtniture, is not at all what people find attractive in human beings.
And when you say the word "attractive", everyone is going to have a different set pictures come up.....
Well guys, Da Kid is back from his trip to Tampa for the Bucs/Falcons game over the weekend and as I can see this thread has become a hot topic and sparked some level of debate. Reminds me of the Morehouse College thread. But anyway, back to the thread.
I tend to agree with the "Dawg" on this issue. Without trying to sound like an irrate black women complaining about how all the successful black men date white women I can't help but say that that is exactly what happens. Being a black male who is currently in the dating pool I must admit that I too dat exclusively men of color. I don't doubt that I would be civil and cordial to a white guy that was interested in me, but I also know that I probably would not even think twice about turning him down solely because he is white. They just are attractive to me.
Let me give you just a small portion of my background. I grew up in the ghetto in Miami. Everyone in my neighborhood was black, yet my mom had only white friends and I could often be found in the "white" neighborhoods hanging out with nothing but lilly white guys, my brothers and I being their "token black friend." Most of my friends in my neighborhood called my brothers and I white, because we talked and acted like your typical white boy. I even went to an all-white elementary and middle school (well not all white they had 6 and 11 black people respectively) because I was gifted and was able to go to a "magnet" school. Then when I got to high school and it was ALL BLACK. It was then that I became the ridicule of those in my own race because I "acted" white for my whole freshman year. Needless to say, I always knew what it was to be in an urban black environment becuase that is where I lived. It was in high school that I discovered my love for me. Prior to this, even when I was in middle school I exclusively dated black women. But the guy who brought out my homosexuality was a black man. I then went to FSU, a predominently white college, and found myself having to go across the tracks, both literally and metaphorically, to FAMU (an HBCU) to find a date. It was either that or date one of my frat brothers and I couldn't do that for fear of them finding out about my sexuality. I was appraoched numerous times by white guys but they were always that white guy looking to land a cute black guy and I always felt like I would be LOWERING my standards by dating them.
I know that it may sound hypocritical to me to say that one should be racially and ethnically unbiased when dating, yet I only date black and latino men, but it also ain't fair that there was a time when a black man could even think about looking at a black man or woman in a sexual way. I often find it disgusting myself when I see a handsome black man who will run at the beckon and call of any white guy, but will turn his nose up if a black man gives him the slightest glance. While I feel this way I also know that I don't want to be with someone who doesn't appreciate who and what he is.
One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is the one on parenting. Many people find people who resemble mom and dad attractive whether or not they choose to admit it. I think blacks being attracted to blacks, asians to asians, latino, to latino, and so forth is an evolutionary outcome. We tend to want to be around and thus be with people that are similar to us be it physically, mentally, or emotionally. Now don't think I don't understand that opposites attract, or that any one of you can ramble off a thousand examples to negate everything that I just said, but it does make sense.
I must admit though that I am probably way off on all of my opinions. You'll have to excuse me for that. I am still quite young and haven't been around as long or had as many experiences as many of you. I can only hope to add a little of my opinoins here and there.
Da Kid.
I tend to agree with the "Dawg" on this issue. Without trying to sound like an irrate black women complaining about how all the successful black men date white women I can't help but say that that is exactly what happens. Being a black male who is currently in the dating pool I must admit that I too dat exclusively men of color. I don't doubt that I would be civil and cordial to a white guy that was interested in me, but I also know that I probably would not even think twice about turning him down solely because he is white. They just are attractive to me.
Let me give you just a small portion of my background. I grew up in the ghetto in Miami. Everyone in my neighborhood was black, yet my mom had only white friends and I could often be found in the "white" neighborhoods hanging out with nothing but lilly white guys, my brothers and I being their "token black friend." Most of my friends in my neighborhood called my brothers and I white, because we talked and acted like your typical white boy. I even went to an all-white elementary and middle school (well not all white they had 6 and 11 black people respectively) because I was gifted and was able to go to a "magnet" school. Then when I got to high school and it was ALL BLACK. It was then that I became the ridicule of those in my own race because I "acted" white for my whole freshman year. Needless to say, I always knew what it was to be in an urban black environment becuase that is where I lived. It was in high school that I discovered my love for me. Prior to this, even when I was in middle school I exclusively dated black women. But the guy who brought out my homosexuality was a black man. I then went to FSU, a predominently white college, and found myself having to go across the tracks, both literally and metaphorically, to FAMU (an HBCU) to find a date. It was either that or date one of my frat brothers and I couldn't do that for fear of them finding out about my sexuality. I was appraoched numerous times by white guys but they were always that white guy looking to land a cute black guy and I always felt like I would be LOWERING my standards by dating them.
I know that it may sound hypocritical to me to say that one should be racially and ethnically unbiased when dating, yet I only date black and latino men, but it also ain't fair that there was a time when a black man could even think about looking at a black man or woman in a sexual way. I often find it disgusting myself when I see a handsome black man who will run at the beckon and call of any white guy, but will turn his nose up if a black man gives him the slightest glance. While I feel this way I also know that I don't want to be with someone who doesn't appreciate who and what he is.
One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is the one on parenting. Many people find people who resemble mom and dad attractive whether or not they choose to admit it. I think blacks being attracted to blacks, asians to asians, latino, to latino, and so forth is an evolutionary outcome. We tend to want to be around and thus be with people that are similar to us be it physically, mentally, or emotionally. Now don't think I don't understand that opposites attract, or that any one of you can ramble off a thousand examples to negate everything that I just said, but it does make sense.
I must admit though that I am probably way off on all of my opinions. You'll have to excuse me for that. I am still quite young and haven't been around as long or had as many experiences as many of you. I can only hope to add a little of my opinoins here and there.
Da Kid.
[quote]Originally posted by Celtics4Life:
One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is the one on parenting. Many people find people who resemble mom and dad attractive whether or not they choose to admit it.
How true. Until I was about 14 my ideal woman was very dark, lithe and shapely like my mom and in my later teens (having realized I was gay for good) my ideal man was strong, angular-featured brown skinned with large luscious lips like dad.
Whao, it feels almost incestuous just to write it. But I've always known it's true.
Maybe you're wiser than you think C4L.
One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is the one on parenting. Many people find people who resemble mom and dad attractive whether or not they choose to admit it.
How true. Until I was about 14 my ideal woman was very dark, lithe and shapely like my mom and in my later teens (having realized I was gay for good) my ideal man was strong, angular-featured brown skinned with large luscious lips like dad.
Whao, it feels almost incestuous just to write it. But I've always known it's true.
Maybe you're wiser than you think C4L.
If i could find a white man or an asian or some other culture that accepts me for a being a strong minded black man, with unwavering black ideals then it would work.
Not likely
Not likely
[quote]Originally posted by Celtics4Life:
I think blacks being attracted to blacks, asians to asians, latino, to latino, and so forth is an evolutionary outcome. We tend to want to be around and thus be with people that are similar to us be it physically, mentally, or emotionally. Now don't think I don't understand that opposites attract, or that any one of you can ramble off a thousand examples to negate everything that I just said, but it does make sense.
While your sentiment may make some sense, I would argue that the reasons are cultural, not evolutionary. The fact that we even have races is a geographical result. Historical like-like race coupling was first necessitated by geography, then perpetuated by society. Interracial marrige was illegal in some US states into the 1960's!
Furthermore, many of the comments have alluded to the social power/class play between white and black suitors. These are not biological reasons, but social perceptions and pressures. I would argue that evolution would favor interracial coupling as the resulting children would have the opportunity to inherit the strong traits of both parent races.
We DO tend to want to be around people like ourselves, but 'like ourselves' can be a whole class of traits other than race... like ourselves politically... like ourselves sexually...
In areas where racial inequity is less of a problem, interracial coupling flourishes. (See Hawaii) I think Brazil might be a good example too, but I'm not that knowledgable about Brazil.
I think blacks being attracted to blacks, asians to asians, latino, to latino, and so forth is an evolutionary outcome. We tend to want to be around and thus be with people that are similar to us be it physically, mentally, or emotionally. Now don't think I don't understand that opposites attract, or that any one of you can ramble off a thousand examples to negate everything that I just said, but it does make sense.
While your sentiment may make some sense, I would argue that the reasons are cultural, not evolutionary. The fact that we even have races is a geographical result. Historical like-like race coupling was first necessitated by geography, then perpetuated by society. Interracial marrige was illegal in some US states into the 1960's!
Furthermore, many of the comments have alluded to the social power/class play between white and black suitors. These are not biological reasons, but social perceptions and pressures. I would argue that evolution would favor interracial coupling as the resulting children would have the opportunity to inherit the strong traits of both parent races.
We DO tend to want to be around people like ourselves, but 'like ourselves' can be a whole class of traits other than race... like ourselves politically... like ourselves sexually...
In areas where racial inequity is less of a problem, interracial coupling flourishes. (See Hawaii) I think Brazil might be a good example too, but I'm not that knowledgable about Brazil.
[quote]Originally posted by orsino4:
Furthermore, many of the comments have alluded to the social power/class play between white and black suitors.
This is, for the most part, an ECONOMIC phenomenon. In predominantly Black cities, it is no longer uncommon for the Black guy to get the check from a waiter.
Furthermore, many of the comments have alluded to the social power/class play between white and black suitors.
This is, for the most part, an ECONOMIC phenomenon. In predominantly Black cities, it is no longer uncommon for the Black guy to get the check from a waiter.
I've been off the board for a few days, but WOW this is a FASCINATING thread for me. I have so many comments related to the above that I can't even begin to address at this time or I'd be going on all day.
But first I'd like to say that I don't have a big circle of gay friends that I can talk about subjects like this, but I really would like to. And it's great that we have a forum like this on Outsports where such issues can be raised, esp. it being a touchy subject.
Yes, I recall the "attractiveness study" from Psychology 101. And it really is true in general if you look at all couples, straight and gay, young and old, that there is a general equality among the partners...that's why the homecoming queen dates the captain of the football team and not the water boy.
And if one party is low on one feature (say, looks), they have a compensatory feature (say, income)... which is why powerful businessmen can snag younger, more attractive trophy wives. Their power and position compensate for their looks.
This does not mean that you can't date "out of your league," but that generally people are more comfortable with people who are similar to themselves. And even if you date someone of a different race, usually that is a person that who is similar to you in other areas like backgrounds, personality, politics, interests, hobbies, etc.
I know there are some people on this board whose partners are not into sports. But, I'm sure there are many other things that they DO have in common. And that's why couples stay together, because they have things in common and like to do things with each other.
My second point is on the issue of Rice Queens. Although I am an Oriental guy who is attracted to white guys (a Potato Queen?), the idea of white guys who fetishize Orientals is a turn-off for me. I mean, when a guy tells me "I just like the whole Asian culture, the way Asian guys are so X, Y and Z." And I'm like, "Well, I may look 'Asian,' but I was born in Toronto at Mt. Sinai hospital, went to a 95% white high school, and am more Canadian than anything else. I want you to like me for ME--not because I'm some 'Asian ideal.'" Still, I have to wonder if I myself am not doing the same thing in reverse. I don't think so, but I don't know.
I know any racial issue is a hot button, but I believe when it comes to what you are attracted to, it's all a matter of taste. Black/white/short/tall/fat/thin... whatever. We all like what we like. It's like food: some people like broccoli and some people don't. But just because you don't doesn't mean you have "issues."
[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: canmark ]
But first I'd like to say that I don't have a big circle of gay friends that I can talk about subjects like this, but I really would like to. And it's great that we have a forum like this on Outsports where such issues can be raised, esp. it being a touchy subject.
Yes, I recall the "attractiveness study" from Psychology 101. And it really is true in general if you look at all couples, straight and gay, young and old, that there is a general equality among the partners...that's why the homecoming queen dates the captain of the football team and not the water boy.
And if one party is low on one feature (say, looks), they have a compensatory feature (say, income)... which is why powerful businessmen can snag younger, more attractive trophy wives. Their power and position compensate for their looks.
This does not mean that you can't date "out of your league," but that generally people are more comfortable with people who are similar to themselves. And even if you date someone of a different race, usually that is a person that who is similar to you in other areas like backgrounds, personality, politics, interests, hobbies, etc.
I know there are some people on this board whose partners are not into sports. But, I'm sure there are many other things that they DO have in common. And that's why couples stay together, because they have things in common and like to do things with each other.
My second point is on the issue of Rice Queens. Although I am an Oriental guy who is attracted to white guys (a Potato Queen?), the idea of white guys who fetishize Orientals is a turn-off for me. I mean, when a guy tells me "I just like the whole Asian culture, the way Asian guys are so X, Y and Z." And I'm like, "Well, I may look 'Asian,' but I was born in Toronto at Mt. Sinai hospital, went to a 95% white high school, and am more Canadian than anything else. I want you to like me for ME--not because I'm some 'Asian ideal.'" Still, I have to wonder if I myself am not doing the same thing in reverse. I don't think so, but I don't know.
I know any racial issue is a hot button, but I believe when it comes to what you are attracted to, it's all a matter of taste. Black/white/short/tall/fat/thin... whatever. We all like what we like. It's like food: some people like broccoli and some people don't. But just because you don't doesn't mean you have "issues."
[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: canmark ]
[quote]In areas where racial inequity is less of a problem, interracial coupling flourishes. (See Hawaii) I think Brazil might be a good example too, but I'm not that knowledgable about Brazil.
Do not get it twisted. Brazil is VERY class conscious, and there, class is almost exclusively based on skin color. The lighter/more European-looking a Brasilian is, the better treated (and presumably wealthier and more educated) he is. In fact, Brasilians have over 27 descriptions for skin color variations... THAT'S how seriously they take the distinctions.
[quote]Originally posted by bluebird48234:
This is, for the most part, an ECONOMIC phenomenon. In predominantly Black cities, it is no longer uncommon for the Black guy to get the check from a waiter.
Interracial dating (and interracial preferences) are NOT purely economic phenomena. There are harsh, deep historical chasms between Black and White in this country, and deep-seated, perhaps even malfeasant reasons why many men of color might consciously seek out a White man to date/f**k/impress, as well as why White men may choose to date men of color. One of them might be the perception or the existence of economic power in one over the other, or even shared economic power, but it goes much deeper than "Black men have better jobs now". In fact, almost none of the deeper reasons give me a warm fuzzy feeling about the dynamic of race relations in the gay community.
[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
Do not get it twisted. Brazil is VERY class conscious, and there, class is almost exclusively based on skin color. The lighter/more European-looking a Brasilian is, the better treated (and presumably wealthier and more educated) he is. In fact, Brasilians have over 27 descriptions for skin color variations... THAT'S how seriously they take the distinctions.
[quote]Originally posted by bluebird48234:
This is, for the most part, an ECONOMIC phenomenon. In predominantly Black cities, it is no longer uncommon for the Black guy to get the check from a waiter.
Interracial dating (and interracial preferences) are NOT purely economic phenomena. There are harsh, deep historical chasms between Black and White in this country, and deep-seated, perhaps even malfeasant reasons why many men of color might consciously seek out a White man to date/f**k/impress, as well as why White men may choose to date men of color. One of them might be the perception or the existence of economic power in one over the other, or even shared economic power, but it goes much deeper than "Black men have better jobs now". In fact, almost none of the deeper reasons give me a warm fuzzy feeling about the dynamic of race relations in the gay community.
[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: YellaDawg ]
Canmark, your entire post was a breath of fresh air as usual.
I have always thought that the attaction that younger asian guys have for older white guys had to do with respect for age and power on the part of the asians and desire for validation of their desirability on the part of the whites.
But I never assume that these stereotypes are universal. One has to allow for variations that occur due to enlightened individuals who understand and take control of their emotions and desires. Also people can evolve far more within the individual due to free will, something animals, which mostly evolve through generations, cannot do (reference to the previous comments on evolution).
I have always thought that the attaction that younger asian guys have for older white guys had to do with respect for age and power on the part of the asians and desire for validation of their desirability on the part of the whites.
But I never assume that these stereotypes are universal. One has to allow for variations that occur due to enlightened individuals who understand and take control of their emotions and desires. Also people can evolve far more within the individual due to free will, something animals, which mostly evolve through generations, cannot do (reference to the previous comments on evolution).
A few years ago I (white) went to see my pal Dan (white) play basketball. So, I meet him afterwards and he introduces a teammate (black) to me. Does the guy say "Hey" or "Great game, huh?". Nope--the first thing out of his mouth was "So you're one of those white guys that fetishizes black men" (apply proper contemptuous tone of voice). Dan looked mortified and I was so stunned by the presumptuousness of the guy, thinking that's why I was introduced to him, that it wasn't until later that night that I thought of my comeback: "I like pale British guys and Jewish guys from a European background. You're neither". I just walked away without saying anything.
At that point I realized that, in a way, I was lucky that I don't find men of color attractive in the least. If that guy was even slightly emblematic of the mental terrain that interracial dating contains, I'm glad I don't have to navigate it.
[quote]I know any racial issue is a hot button, but I believe when it comes to what you are attracted to, it's all a matter of taste. Black/white/short/tall/fat/thin... whatever. We all like what we like. It's like food: some people like broccoli and some people don't. But just because you don't doesn't mean you have "issues."
Exactly.
At that point I realized that, in a way, I was lucky that I don't find men of color attractive in the least. If that guy was even slightly emblematic of the mental terrain that interracial dating contains, I'm glad I don't have to navigate it.
[quote]I know any racial issue is a hot button, but I believe when it comes to what you are attracted to, it's all a matter of taste. Black/white/short/tall/fat/thin... whatever. We all like what we like. It's like food: some people like broccoli and some people don't. But just because you don't doesn't mean you have "issues."
Exactly.
My thought on this issue is fairly simple: Like/love whoever you want and don't apologize for it. If you and your loved one don't have a problem with the dynamics of your relationship, then neither should we. And if we do, it's our problem, not yours.
Z
Z
Canmark, I agree with most of the points you make, especially about specific preferences not having anything to do with personal issues. However, I think I get a little more offended when guys want to date me simply because I'm Latino. I hate it when burrito queens respond to my personals ads and talk only ahout Latino culture, whether I'm cut or uncut or whether I'm a light-skinned or dark-skinned Latino. I have a lot more to offer than just my skin color.
It's really annoying and demeaning to be fetishized (sp?) and objectified.
But I think it's just a part of the whole emphasis on superciality that is so common in many gay men's lives.
For example, my white friend just came out to me as bisexual and wants to start dating guys. But he has this whole checklist of criteria that prospective suitors must meet before he would even consider going out with them: they must be cut, hung and black.
I guess I just can't relate to the concept of automatically excluding whole classes of people from my dating circle.
All I can say is, forget the rice queens, burrito queens and snow queens and bring on the neopolitan queens.
It's really annoying and demeaning to be fetishized (sp?) and objectified.
But I think it's just a part of the whole emphasis on superciality that is so common in many gay men's lives.
For example, my white friend just came out to me as bisexual and wants to start dating guys. But he has this whole checklist of criteria that prospective suitors must meet before he would even consider going out with them: they must be cut, hung and black.
I guess I just can't relate to the concept of automatically excluding whole classes of people from my dating circle.
All I can say is, forget the rice queens, burrito queens and snow queens and bring on the neopolitan queens.
I had an additional thought to share. It applys more to Asian and White relationships. Of our close family friends (Chinese) from my home town area in Southeastern Pennsylvania , all of the American born children of my generation are coupled with white significant others (7 for 7 so far). My cousins in the Bay Area married Asian. Is it an East Coast West Coast thing?
I'm also perturbed by the whole Young Asian and Older White guy thing, but mainly because strangers (wrongly) assume that my relationship falls into this category. I don't have enough experience to comment intelligently on other Asian men or other White men, but I do have experience with my own situation. My parter and I look like we have a large age difference; he looks old for his age and I look young for mine which makes him look 10-15 years older than me. In reality we are the same age (actually I'm older by a few months).
So when I see an apparently younger guy with an older guy I tend to ponder rather than assume there is a large age difference. And aren't there plenty of daddy-boy relationships that don't cross race lines?
My final thought:
Isn't it strange that when white men are attracted to a particular race it is a turn off and icky, but when non-white men (or at least Asians) find themselves attracted white men it's considered normal? For full disclosure, I fall into this hypocrisy as well.
I'm also perturbed by the whole Young Asian and Older White guy thing, but mainly because strangers (wrongly) assume that my relationship falls into this category. I don't have enough experience to comment intelligently on other Asian men or other White men, but I do have experience with my own situation. My parter and I look like we have a large age difference; he looks old for his age and I look young for mine which makes him look 10-15 years older than me. In reality we are the same age (actually I'm older by a few months).
So when I see an apparently younger guy with an older guy I tend to ponder rather than assume there is a large age difference. And aren't there plenty of daddy-boy relationships that don't cross race lines?
My final thought:
Isn't it strange that when white men are attracted to a particular race it is a turn off and icky, but when non-white men (or at least Asians) find themselves attracted white men it's considered normal? For full disclosure, I fall into this hypocrisy as well.
There has been a lot of talk on here how people are offended, shocked, upset, or what have you, about the kinds of people that other people have a tendancey to date. They are also upset by other peoples reasons for dating said people.
My response to this is, why the heck do you care why someone dates another person? Is it really any of your business that your friend is a Rice Queen, a Potatoe Queen, only dates black, hispanic, or even white guys?
I like to believe that each person is smart enough that when they begin to DATE someone they understand why the other person is attracted to them. If the other person isn't in it for the right reason, dump their arse. We are talking about relationships here, not some kind of barter system why by some old crusty white guy wins a small young asian guy in some kind of fast paced game of high stakes match game. The asian guy has his reasons, or the black guy has his reasons, or the white guy has his reasons, or the (half black, 1/4 asian, 1/8 white, 1/8th sioux) guy has his reasons for dating who ever the heck they deem worthy to date. Could there be an alterier motive? Ummmm yep, is that any of our business? Nope. People can be PC about anything they want, in their own lives, but the one place that Political correctness does not, and should not extend in this world, is in my choice of who I will, and will not allow to enter my body. I think each and every person should have that single choice, and they should be able to be as choosey, or not so choosey , as they see fit.
[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: MSUBobcat ]
My response to this is, why the heck do you care why someone dates another person? Is it really any of your business that your friend is a Rice Queen, a Potatoe Queen, only dates black, hispanic, or even white guys?
I like to believe that each person is smart enough that when they begin to DATE someone they understand why the other person is attracted to them. If the other person isn't in it for the right reason, dump their arse. We are talking about relationships here, not some kind of barter system why by some old crusty white guy wins a small young asian guy in some kind of fast paced game of high stakes match game. The asian guy has his reasons, or the black guy has his reasons, or the white guy has his reasons, or the (half black, 1/4 asian, 1/8 white, 1/8th sioux) guy has his reasons for dating who ever the heck they deem worthy to date. Could there be an alterier motive? Ummmm yep, is that any of our business? Nope. People can be PC about anything they want, in their own lives, but the one place that Political correctness does not, and should not extend in this world, is in my choice of who I will, and will not allow to enter my body. I think each and every person should have that single choice, and they should be able to be as choosey, or not so choosey , as they see fit.
[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: MSUBobcat ]
[quote]Originally posted by YellaDawg:
In fact, almost none of the deeper reasons give me a warm fuzzy feeling about the dynamic of race relations in the gay community.
I wouldn't say I get a "warm, fuzzy feeling" about the correlating societal economics either; yet, just recently, Black men were ASSUMED to be unable to pay a restaurant check or unable to wield their own power in public-accommodation settings. And although it IS just a "Well, the guy with the cashmere sweater will probably give me the better tip" mentality - at least more Black guys are seen as self sufficient and not predators, the lesser of two patrons, and/or needy.
A lot of these issues have to be judged on a case-by-case basis - and when there is discomfort, it's up to the discomforted to speak up. At least, you CAN now, without fear of murder.
[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
In fact, almost none of the deeper reasons give me a warm fuzzy feeling about the dynamic of race relations in the gay community.
I wouldn't say I get a "warm, fuzzy feeling" about the correlating societal economics either; yet, just recently, Black men were ASSUMED to be unable to pay a restaurant check or unable to wield their own power in public-accommodation settings. And although it IS just a "Well, the guy with the cashmere sweater will probably give me the better tip" mentality - at least more Black guys are seen as self sufficient and not predators, the lesser of two patrons, and/or needy.
A lot of these issues have to be judged on a case-by-case basis - and when there is discomfort, it's up to the discomforted to speak up. At least, you CAN now, without fear of murder.
[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
Lot of interesting, and healthy, commnents here IMO. I'd like to look more closely at one of them:
[quote]Originally posted by MSUBobcat:
People can be PC about anything they want, in their own lives, but the one place that Political correctness does not, and should not extend in this world, is in my choice of who I will, and will not allow to enter my body
This is obviously true about dating, though choice of sex partners might be more accurate, but society is not so easily compartmentalized.
How individuals choose their sex partners, dates, whatever inevitably has an impact (I refuse to use that word as a verb) on, or reflects, how they feel about other people.
No, noone can, or should, be forced, or even encouraged against their desire, to "date" people of other races. But social segregation within an institution (or country) will eventually result in the same inequalities as legal segregation.
Had Senator Trent Lott associated more with those who are different from him and not stayed cocooned in an environment where his views are rarely challenged, he probably would understand why his recent statements at Senator Thurmond's birthday party were insensitive and prone to negative interpretation.
One's choice of dating partners is ones own business. But ones choice of business partners, which may or may not be similarly made, will have a dramatic effect on others.
This is at the root of why the policy of affirmative action is so hotly debated, and why that debate is so fundamentally important. An individual running a business sees the right to associate with those with whom he/she is "comfortable" as fundamental. Hence they hire someone they are "comfortable" with.
The net result is that personal choices can result in the perpetuation of group discrimination.
Can we truly separate personal behavior from everything else?
[quote]Originally posted by MSUBobcat:
People can be PC about anything they want, in their own lives, but the one place that Political correctness does not, and should not extend in this world, is in my choice of who I will, and will not allow to enter my body
This is obviously true about dating, though choice of sex partners might be more accurate, but society is not so easily compartmentalized.
How individuals choose their sex partners, dates, whatever inevitably has an impact (I refuse to use that word as a verb) on, or reflects, how they feel about other people.
No, noone can, or should, be forced, or even encouraged against their desire, to "date" people of other races. But social segregation within an institution (or country) will eventually result in the same inequalities as legal segregation.
Had Senator Trent Lott associated more with those who are different from him and not stayed cocooned in an environment where his views are rarely challenged, he probably would understand why his recent statements at Senator Thurmond's birthday party were insensitive and prone to negative interpretation.
One's choice of dating partners is ones own business. But ones choice of business partners, which may or may not be similarly made, will have a dramatic effect on others.
This is at the root of why the policy of affirmative action is so hotly debated, and why that debate is so fundamentally important. An individual running a business sees the right to associate with those with whom he/she is "comfortable" as fundamental. Hence they hire someone they are "comfortable" with.
The net result is that personal choices can result in the perpetuation of group discrimination.
Can we truly separate personal behavior from everything else?
[quote]Originally posted by MSUBobcat:
People can be PC about anything they want, in their own lives, but the one place that Political correctness does not, and should not extend in this world, is in my choice of who I will, and will not allow to enter my body.
Did I miss something? When did PC even come up in this thread? I thought we were talking about why we are or are not attracted to people of different races. I don't think anyone accused anyone else of being morally or politically misguided. The only transgression I read was the recount of an uninformed holier than thou lout who assumed someone else's preference without knowing the facts.
I enjoy this discussion because I DO care. I do care about how race affects why someone might find me attractive. I do care about how race may influence why I find my partner (and all the wonderfully hot white guys around) attractive. I don't think it is a PC thing at all. I don't think anyone excoriated someone else for not desiring to date someone based on race (if someone did, I missed it). I view this thread as a discussion of why, not should or should not.
People can be PC about anything they want, in their own lives, but the one place that Political correctness does not, and should not extend in this world, is in my choice of who I will, and will not allow to enter my body.
Did I miss something? When did PC even come up in this thread? I thought we were talking about why we are or are not attracted to people of different races. I don't think anyone accused anyone else of being morally or politically misguided. The only transgression I read was the recount of an uninformed holier than thou lout who assumed someone else's preference without knowing the facts.
I enjoy this discussion because I DO care. I do care about how race affects why someone might find me attractive. I do care about how race may influence why I find my partner (and all the wonderfully hot white guys around) attractive. I don't think it is a PC thing at all. I don't think anyone excoriated someone else for not desiring to date someone based on race (if someone did, I missed it). I view this thread as a discussion of why, not should or should not.
[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
I have always thought that the attaction that younger asian guys have for older white guys had to do with respect for age and power on the part of the asians and desire for validation of their desirability on the part of the whites.
I can only speak from my own situation (although what you explained above is indeed the stereotype). I like someone that's older than me because I feel like I'm not "into" things that younger guys are into. I don't want to go clubbing, I don't listen to alternative music, I don't wear the latest street fashions, I don't want a guy that's still playing the field, etc. I want a man that's settled and wants to settle down, I want a man who likes classic rock and show tunes, I want a man that would rather futz around in the garden than go snowboarding, etc.
My attraction has nothing to do with "respect for age"... that's that rice queen "I live the Asian culture" bullshit. I mean, look at Margaret Cho. Is she some Madama Butterfly that's gonna kill herself for some white boy. No, she's gonna kick his ass! Asian Americans/Canadians do not go around bowing and saying "honorable mother and father." Ick, I hate that whole sterotype, but feel that people might think I fall into it when they see me with an older white guy.
I have always thought that the attaction that younger asian guys have for older white guys had to do with respect for age and power on the part of the asians and desire for validation of their desirability on the part of the whites.
I can only speak from my own situation (although what you explained above is indeed the stereotype). I like someone that's older than me because I feel like I'm not "into" things that younger guys are into. I don't want to go clubbing, I don't listen to alternative music, I don't wear the latest street fashions, I don't want a guy that's still playing the field, etc. I want a man that's settled and wants to settle down, I want a man who likes classic rock and show tunes, I want a man that would rather futz around in the garden than go snowboarding, etc.
My attraction has nothing to do with "respect for age"... that's that rice queen "I live the Asian culture" bullshit. I mean, look at Margaret Cho. Is she some Madama Butterfly that's gonna kill herself for some white boy. No, she's gonna kick his ass! Asian Americans/Canadians do not go around bowing and saying "honorable mother and father." Ick, I hate that whole sterotype, but feel that people might think I fall into it when they see me with an older white guy.
I guess PC isn't the appropriate term to use. Sorry about that, I was on a roll, and just kind of threw that term out there. I guess what I was trying to say is that having read all of the posts on this board, a lot of people are becoming offended because they view their entire race as being discriminated against or sought after in the world of independent relationships. This makes them uncomfortable.
I was just trying to say that it really is none of our business collectively who an individual dates. After all, this thread is not about affirmative action, or equal opprotunity in the business world, it is simply about individual's dating preferences, the dynamics involved between the two people who are dating, and the reactions they experience from society in general. If I'm wrong, and this is about less or more than that, cool, but that's where I'm comming from. ;D
Like I said before, I am attracted to what I'm attracted to. To be honest, I think it changes just about daily. LOL I used say that I would never date a Red head because they did nothing for me. Now on the other hand, Lately my head has been turned by several red heads. Why does my head turn? I have no Idea. There is just something about the person, and they happen to have red hair. I am also attracted to Short, dark haired, hairy men, who have blue eyes. I can't explain it, I get wet when I see some stud who's furry walking by. My friends on the other hand, think I'm nuts. Should I reevaluate my preference in men because I may have a furry guy fetish? I don't think so. It's kind of like being gay. Why am I attracted to Men? I have no Idea why I'm attrated to men, I just am.
Someone also said that they were tired of guys that only wanted them because they were a certain race. When I think about all the different preferences out there, be them people that are attracted to Twinks, or people who like to wave the red hanky(if you know what I mean ), or what have you, I think we all need to understand that everyone is looking for that one person that will make them happy, even if just for an hour or two. If you're looking for more of a realtionship than the other person, it won't work anyway, so move on.
Since noone likes to be told that their preference is wrong, I'd suggest we all just go with our instincts, and Enjoy the heck out of each other, emotionally, and physically. That's why we're here, right?
I was just trying to say that it really is none of our business collectively who an individual dates. After all, this thread is not about affirmative action, or equal opprotunity in the business world, it is simply about individual's dating preferences, the dynamics involved between the two people who are dating, and the reactions they experience from society in general. If I'm wrong, and this is about less or more than that, cool, but that's where I'm comming from. ;D
Like I said before, I am attracted to what I'm attracted to. To be honest, I think it changes just about daily. LOL I used say that I would never date a Red head because they did nothing for me. Now on the other hand, Lately my head has been turned by several red heads. Why does my head turn? I have no Idea. There is just something about the person, and they happen to have red hair. I am also attracted to Short, dark haired, hairy men, who have blue eyes. I can't explain it, I get wet when I see some stud who's furry walking by. My friends on the other hand, think I'm nuts. Should I reevaluate my preference in men because I may have a furry guy fetish? I don't think so. It's kind of like being gay. Why am I attracted to Men? I have no Idea why I'm attrated to men, I just am.
Someone also said that they were tired of guys that only wanted them because they were a certain race. When I think about all the different preferences out there, be them people that are attracted to Twinks, or people who like to wave the red hanky(if you know what I mean ), or what have you, I think we all need to understand that everyone is looking for that one person that will make them happy, even if just for an hour or two. If you're looking for more of a realtionship than the other person, it won't work anyway, so move on.
Since noone likes to be told that their preference is wrong, I'd suggest we all just go with our instincts, and Enjoy the heck out of each other, emotionally, and physically. That's why we're here, right?
[quote]Originally posted by MSUBobcat:
Since noone likes to be told that their preference is wrong, I'd suggest we all just go with our instincts, and Enjoy the heck out of each other, emotionally, and physically. That's why we're here, right?
Sounds good to me!
Since noone likes to be told that their preference is wrong, I'd suggest we all just go with our instincts, and Enjoy the heck out of each other, emotionally, and physically. That's why we're here, right?
Sounds good to me!
Great thread. I am a Black man who is primarily attracted to men with color in their skin, as well as broad and full features, like big lips and noses, alicanthropic (almond shaped) eyes, etc., so most of the men I'm attracted to include other Blacks, most Latinos (especially those of African or Indian descent), most Asians (especially South Asians), Native Americans, and Arabs. I particularly find very dark and/or very smooth or very hairy brown-skinned men attractive, as well as afros, cornrows, etc. (I guess these are fetishes?) Why? I don't know. Maybe because my father is very light-skinned (he was often mistaken for being "from the islands" by the suburban Whites I grew up around, wherever those mythical islands were), so I'm reacting?
From images I've seen, nations like Egypt, Morocco, the Phillipines, Panama, Sri Lanka, Guinea, Cuba, India, Vietnam, Colombia, etc. are full of men I find attractive. The countries I've visited that have the most beautiful men I've found aer Brazil, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic, though I've never been to Africa, Asia or to any middle-eastern nation, which seem like they would be high on my list. However, I am also attracted to some White guys, especially darker/swarthier, very hairy men, of which France has more than few. (Even saying this, I do find some blond or red-heads attractive--Brian Urlacher, Bjorn Borg, etc. are among them). I admit to having reacted negatively to the racism I encountered when I first came out by not even considering White men. I found the power, social and historical issues to be so invasive that I could not go there. Were I single and not living in an all-White community, let's say, I'd have to think about it, but I probably would end up with a Latino, Arab or Asian guy first.
I have a Black partner and am very happy with him. Emotionally, culturally, psychologically, and physically we are compatible. When I was younger I sometimes wanted to date Asian men and was rebuffed; nearly all I met were interested in White men exclusively. Since I've gotten older I've encountered Asian men who are interested in Black men. I've always been mystified by Black men who claim that they cannot meet another decent brotha and I wonder if they realize they're indicting themselves. Think about saying this about *you*--are you "not decent"? Personally I've never encountered problems in general with Black men, since the various places I've lived have always had Black gay communities consisting of Black men who were attracted to each other. When some Black friends have told me that the reason they're dating a White man is because they can't find any decent Black men, I often reply, well is that the case or are you unwilling to admit that you're just more attracted to Whites? Then I add, what about a non-white Latino, or an Asian guy, or an Arab? It's almost as if men from these groups get left out of the equation and discussion, except in discussions of exoticism.
Note to Jim Allen: really, you shouldn't base your views of all Black men on one idiot. I give you more credit that than.
From images I've seen, nations like Egypt, Morocco, the Phillipines, Panama, Sri Lanka, Guinea, Cuba, India, Vietnam, Colombia, etc. are full of men I find attractive. The countries I've visited that have the most beautiful men I've found aer Brazil, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic, though I've never been to Africa, Asia or to any middle-eastern nation, which seem like they would be high on my list. However, I am also attracted to some White guys, especially darker/swarthier, very hairy men, of which France has more than few. (Even saying this, I do find some blond or red-heads attractive--Brian Urlacher, Bjorn Borg, etc. are among them). I admit to having reacted negatively to the racism I encountered when I first came out by not even considering White men. I found the power, social and historical issues to be so invasive that I could not go there. Were I single and not living in an all-White community, let's say, I'd have to think about it, but I probably would end up with a Latino, Arab or Asian guy first.
I have a Black partner and am very happy with him. Emotionally, culturally, psychologically, and physically we are compatible. When I was younger I sometimes wanted to date Asian men and was rebuffed; nearly all I met were interested in White men exclusively. Since I've gotten older I've encountered Asian men who are interested in Black men. I've always been mystified by Black men who claim that they cannot meet another decent brotha and I wonder if they realize they're indicting themselves. Think about saying this about *you*--are you "not decent"? Personally I've never encountered problems in general with Black men, since the various places I've lived have always had Black gay communities consisting of Black men who were attracted to each other. When some Black friends have told me that the reason they're dating a White man is because they can't find any decent Black men, I often reply, well is that the case or are you unwilling to admit that you're just more attracted to Whites? Then I add, what about a non-white Latino, or an Asian guy, or an Arab? It's almost as if men from these groups get left out of the equation and discussion, except in discussions of exoticism.
Note to Jim Allen: really, you shouldn't base your views of all Black men on one idiot. I give you more credit that than.
A question: since some Latinos are Black and some are White, but most are mixed, and since many Black Americans also have Caucasian and/or Native American ancestry, and since increasing numbers of White Americans have come to find that they also have some mixed ancestry (some Native American heritage, various European mixtures, a few with Black ancestors, etc.), are African-American + (B)Latino, or White + White Latino, or African-American + Native American couples really "interracial"? Interethnic?
...Like a moth to a flame. I keep coming back to this topic and reading all of the post with great interest. I have began to question my motives here. Is that this a genuinely interesting topic,or is it that I am hoping someone would bring this all into prospective with dazzling insight? I writing tonight to say that I appreciated the comments made by Jim Allen. I acknowledge his courage to say what is on his mind and he is absouletly right he does not have to bother with dealing with any questions of race in his life. I think that most white gay men take that option. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it, as who needs the stress. I still have preferences for Mediterrian men, but have dated blacks, Norhtern Europeans, Dark Skinned Mexicans from Durango, and even a 6'4" Chinese guy (one sexy MF). I try now to look at the things that I value in my life and how well a person matches up with my values. I Have not found that perfect match yet,as having values is sometimes a bitch....I will continue to struggle with questions of race and class as I do not have the option not to.
[quote]Note to Jim Allen: really, you shouldn't base your views of all Black men on one idiot. I give you more credit than that
Oh, yikes! Is that the impression I was giving off, writing off a whole race because of one bad experience?!? Crap! That was not my intention. That's what I get for typing a post quickly at work between doing work on a spreadsheet. Hahaha. My boss would be sooo displeased.
I just threw that out as an example of how fraught with "issues" interracial dating is, as others had pointed out. I get along fine with people of color, but 99% of the time I am simply not physically attracted to them. You know that little "zing", that rush of chemicals to your head that you get when you see someone that you think is hot? White guys, 99% of the time, for me. In fact, I was laughing at this: [quote]I am a Black man who is primarily attracted to men with color in their skin, as well as broad and full features, like big lips and noses, alicanthropic eyes. I particularly find very dark and/or very smooth or very hairy brown-skinned men attractive, as well as afros, cornrows, etc. (I guess these are fetishes?)
The reason I laughed is because I look for the total opposite attributes: I adore pale skin; suntans are a no-no even. Yes, I know, what the f**k am I living in Los Angeles for then? Even swarthy Italians or Frenchmen are a turn-off. I like a thin face with no prominent cheekbones, but "chipmunk cheeks"; a tapered, pointy nose; thin, almost non existent lips, thick eyebrows and straight hair (fuzzy hair is right out). I have other strong likes such as bushy forearm hair (see: Steve Garvey), chest hair and such, but, you're right, they probably fall under the "fetish" category.
I went to Edinburgh, Scotland about 3 years ago and it was heaven on earth for me, guy-wise. I sat in a Net cafe, at a window by a busy street, for 3 hours while I was doing e-mail home and I must have seen at least 20 guys that I thought were totally, 1,000% gorgeous. Just "my type". I simply would not have the same reaction if I went to Inglewood, East LA or Monterey Park, where whites are overwhelmingly in the minority. I fully realize that I'm cutting out a large portion of potential dating options, but I gave up long ago feeling guilty or weirded out about it.
Mike Hollis is as good of an example as any of my "ideal".
Oh, yikes! Is that the impression I was giving off, writing off a whole race because of one bad experience?!? Crap! That was not my intention. That's what I get for typing a post quickly at work between doing work on a spreadsheet. Hahaha. My boss would be sooo displeased.
I just threw that out as an example of how fraught with "issues" interracial dating is, as others had pointed out. I get along fine with people of color, but 99% of the time I am simply not physically attracted to them. You know that little "zing", that rush of chemicals to your head that you get when you see someone that you think is hot? White guys, 99% of the time, for me. In fact, I was laughing at this: [quote]I am a Black man who is primarily attracted to men with color in their skin, as well as broad and full features, like big lips and noses, alicanthropic eyes. I particularly find very dark and/or very smooth or very hairy brown-skinned men attractive, as well as afros, cornrows, etc. (I guess these are fetishes?)
The reason I laughed is because I look for the total opposite attributes: I adore pale skin; suntans are a no-no even. Yes, I know, what the f**k am I living in Los Angeles for then? Even swarthy Italians or Frenchmen are a turn-off. I like a thin face with no prominent cheekbones, but "chipmunk cheeks"; a tapered, pointy nose; thin, almost non existent lips, thick eyebrows and straight hair (fuzzy hair is right out). I have other strong likes such as bushy forearm hair (see: Steve Garvey), chest hair and such, but, you're right, they probably fall under the "fetish" category.
I went to Edinburgh, Scotland about 3 years ago and it was heaven on earth for me, guy-wise. I sat in a Net cafe, at a window by a busy street, for 3 hours while I was doing e-mail home and I must have seen at least 20 guys that I thought were totally, 1,000% gorgeous. Just "my type". I simply would not have the same reaction if I went to Inglewood, East LA or Monterey Park, where whites are overwhelmingly in the minority. I fully realize that I'm cutting out a large portion of potential dating options, but I gave up long ago feeling guilty or weirded out about it.
Mike Hollis is as good of an example as any of my "ideal".
How do I write without getting on a soapbox? Apologies in advance. It's about power and privilege. It's about having the power (and privilege)to represent your wants and desires. How many stories, images, songs, films, etc, do we ever get to see of men loving men, and even fewer of men of color loving another man of color? Part of heterosexual privilege ("Het Priv" for short) is not even realizing only your stories are being told (or considering your story as "normal"). To a lesser extent, folks who assume "GAY" means white and middle class enjoy "Homo Priv".
It's been mentioned lots on other threads, like those on "Queer as Folk", MTV's "Real World", "Will & Grace", but it seems the few images we do get of gay men are almost exclusively white and middle class. When we do see a man of color, it's as an exotic token. Like people of color are a flavor to consume and make you more interesting. Can I bring up the point (again) that in MTV's "Real World" the ONLY group never represented has been Asian men (straight or gay)?
As for dating in particular, in my circle we joke (but kind of seriously) that any gay Asian guy looking to talk to another must first ask "Are you sticky?". As in sticky rice. Like that is the exception and somehow less normal than being not sticky?
It's been mentioned lots on other threads, like those on "Queer as Folk", MTV's "Real World", "Will & Grace", but it seems the few images we do get of gay men are almost exclusively white and middle class. When we do see a man of color, it's as an exotic token. Like people of color are a flavor to consume and make you more interesting. Can I bring up the point (again) that in MTV's "Real World" the ONLY group never represented has been Asian men (straight or gay)?
As for dating in particular, in my circle we joke (but kind of seriously) that any gay Asian guy looking to talk to another must first ask "Are you sticky?". As in sticky rice. Like that is the exception and somehow less normal than being not sticky?
[quote]Originally posted by Jim Allen:
Mike Hollis is as good of an example as any of my "ideal".
That is one very sexy looking guy, though I would not call the face thin.
Guess I'm the only "omnivore" here when it comes to "which race I find attractive". Haven't found a color I don't like.
Can't wait for some alien species to come along. THAT would be interesting too probably.
Funny how this whole conversation revolves around a distinction that most geneticists would say has no genetic definition. The human race is only one species/race. There is not enough genetic difference between races to say for sure that an individual belongs to one or the other just by looking at the genes.
The entire construct of race is an arbitrary social phenomenon. Granted differences other than skin color exist between the "races" but for the most part the same genes exist within each race, and those that are not phenotypic (visible) simply are not being expressed.
Some day we may be able to switch genes on and off so that one could change races as easily as dyeing your hair.
Think I'd like a nice burnt orange-red skin color, jet-black hair cropped real short, flared nostrils, heavy brows, and bigger...ears.
And that's just on Autumn. Maybe dark black in summer, white in winter...
Yup! Shoot me up doc.
Mike Hollis is as good of an example as any of my "ideal".
That is one very sexy looking guy, though I would not call the face thin.
Guess I'm the only "omnivore" here when it comes to "which race I find attractive". Haven't found a color I don't like.
Can't wait for some alien species to come along. THAT would be interesting too probably.
Funny how this whole conversation revolves around a distinction that most geneticists would say has no genetic definition. The human race is only one species/race. There is not enough genetic difference between races to say for sure that an individual belongs to one or the other just by looking at the genes.
The entire construct of race is an arbitrary social phenomenon. Granted differences other than skin color exist between the "races" but for the most part the same genes exist within each race, and those that are not phenotypic (visible) simply are not being expressed.
Some day we may be able to switch genes on and off so that one could change races as easily as dyeing your hair.
Think I'd like a nice burnt orange-red skin color, jet-black hair cropped real short, flared nostrils, heavy brows, and bigger...ears.
And that's just on Autumn. Maybe dark black in summer, white in winter...
Yup! Shoot me up doc.
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