[quote]Originally posted by YellaDawg:
tendency for the Black partner in a White-Black couple to be the "better catch" of the two
... quite often the White dating partner would tend to look like Potsie Weber or Ralph Malph from Happy Days
ROFLMAO!!
When I met my (white) ex's new (black) partner, I wondered what New Girlfriend saw in my ex. You hit the characterization dead-on!
gj
Full Version: Interracial Dating
I am really fascinated by this thread because, as I believe I mentioned in the Moorehouse thread, I was shocked at the amount of casual racism in the gay community I have encountered. And this is as a white man (and my family is originally from the British Isles, so only Scandanavian albinos are whiter than me ).
It seems like there are two groups - those who will only date their own (or very close) race/ethnicity and those who are fixated on another race/ethnicity. When I casually dated a black man, it was assumed by many, white, gay friends that I was a)only into "chocolate" or
only into guys w/ big dicks, and we all know about black guys (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). It didn't occur to any of them that I might be interested in the person (okay, he also was a body builder, but that was not the sole reason I dated him).
Even with the modern civil rights movement, there are still those out there, straight and gay, who cannot understand the "mixing" of the races in dating. I have friends who have truthfully told me it was "okay" my brother-in-law is Hispanic, because "he doesn't look it," and a neighbor of my sister's refused to let her, her husband, or their sons into this neighbor's house again because my brother-in-law is Puerto Rican. Incredible.
It seems even worse, at least to me, that the gay community cannot overcome such attitudes better than we have. Yes, we have all been raised in a race conscious society, and yes, we have all been taught, explicitly or implicitly, that being white is better than being black, but we have also all been taught that being straight was better than being gay, and that was an attitude we all overcame. It seems like we should be able to shuck the rest of society's crap if we can accept ourselves as gay.
That all being said (my soapbox for the day), I don't really know how much control we have over who we are attracted to. My "type" is big, brawny, beefy and a little older than me, so Asian guys typically don't make the cut (but not always). I do not know where this type comes from (okay, Dad was a high school football player), but I didn't create it. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a preference for a certain type of man, even if that is a racial/ethnic preference, as long as it is not based on stereotypes.
It seems like there are two groups - those who will only date their own (or very close) race/ethnicity and those who are fixated on another race/ethnicity. When I casually dated a black man, it was assumed by many, white, gay friends that I was a)only into "chocolate" or
only into guys w/ big dicks, and we all know about black guys (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). It didn't occur to any of them that I might be interested in the person (okay, he also was a body builder, but that was not the sole reason I dated him). Even with the modern civil rights movement, there are still those out there, straight and gay, who cannot understand the "mixing" of the races in dating. I have friends who have truthfully told me it was "okay" my brother-in-law is Hispanic, because "he doesn't look it," and a neighbor of my sister's refused to let her, her husband, or their sons into this neighbor's house again because my brother-in-law is Puerto Rican. Incredible.
It seems even worse, at least to me, that the gay community cannot overcome such attitudes better than we have. Yes, we have all been raised in a race conscious society, and yes, we have all been taught, explicitly or implicitly, that being white is better than being black, but we have also all been taught that being straight was better than being gay, and that was an attitude we all overcame. It seems like we should be able to shuck the rest of society's crap if we can accept ourselves as gay.
That all being said (my soapbox for the day), I don't really know how much control we have over who we are attracted to. My "type" is big, brawny, beefy and a little older than me, so Asian guys typically don't make the cut (but not always). I do not know where this type comes from (okay, Dad was a high school football player), but I didn't create it. I don't think there is anything wrong with having a preference for a certain type of man, even if that is a racial/ethnic preference, as long as it is not based on stereotypes.
[quote]Originally posted by Aznbutch:
It's about power and privilege. It's about having the power (and privilege)to represent your wants and desires. How many stories, images, songs, films, etc, do we ever get to see of men loving men, and even fewer of men of color loving another man of color? Part of heterosexual privilege ("Het Priv" for short) is not even realizing only your stories are being told (or considering your story as "normal"). To a lesser extent, folks who assume "GAY" means white and middle class enjoy "Homo Priv".
*****
Can I bring up the point (again) that in MTV's "Real World" the ONLY group never represented has been Asian men (straight or gay)?
I agree with you, Aznbutch. The paucity of representations of men-of-color with other men-of-color, other than in pornography, really needs to be discussed and addressed more often. I've said it before: gay is normatively equated with white and middle class; people of color are exotics, others, existing outside the margin. Moreover many of us internalize this and it affects how we view OURSELVES.
One of the most electrifying moments in my younger gay life was going to see the Sankofa Collective's "The Passion of Remembrance" at the Institute of Contemporary Art in Boston (I believe it was there, though it may have been the Harvard Film Archives at the Carpenter Center). That movie, made by a group that included the young Isaac Julien, featured the first Black-Black male kiss I'd ever seen on the big screen. It really highlighted for me how rare such images were--and still are.
In the movie "Relax...It's Just Sex" (or is the title something else?) T.C. Carson, formerly of "Living Single," is shown dating--and loving--a Latino man. This was moving for me because again, although I see this kind of pairing in my daily life, it is extremely rare to see onscreen. (Eddie Garcia plays his HIV+ boyfriend, also not dealt with enough onscreen.)
It is about power and privilege, including the power and privilege a very few people (out of the 281 million in this nation) have to make their fantasies and sexual desires, their fetishes and interests, central focus points for the entire world. I think of Calvin Klein, who steadily and continually has elevated his fair-haired, smooth-skinned, buff chicken hawk desires to major commodity emblems. Tonight on TV I saw a commercial featuring a guy who fit this bill, and I said to my partner without even knowing the brand, "This is Calvin Klein, isn't it, or someone just like him?" And it was. I also think of all the tired old Hollywood straight men who endlessly push their fantasies of sex with young thin buxom prostitutes--some with hearts of gold!--onto movie screens, and expect the rest of us--the rest of the world, to simply eat this crap up. Many people do, however.
I would love to see more gay Chinese-American, Vietnamese-American, Korean-American, Desi, etc. directors who feature different takes on gay male and lesbian relationships. Their work would enrich all of us.
It's about power and privilege. It's about having the power (and privilege)to represent your wants and desires. How many stories, images, songs, films, etc, do we ever get to see of men loving men, and even fewer of men of color loving another man of color? Part of heterosexual privilege ("Het Priv" for short) is not even realizing only your stories are being told (or considering your story as "normal"). To a lesser extent, folks who assume "GAY" means white and middle class enjoy "Homo Priv".
*****
Can I bring up the point (again) that in MTV's "Real World" the ONLY group never represented has been Asian men (straight or gay)?
I agree with you, Aznbutch. The paucity of representations of men-of-color with other men-of-color, other than in pornography, really needs to be discussed and addressed more often. I've said it before: gay is normatively equated with white and middle class; people of color are exotics, others, existing outside the margin. Moreover many of us internalize this and it affects how we view OURSELVES.
One of the most electrifying moments in my younger gay life was going to see the Sankofa Collective's "The Passion of Remembrance" at the Institute of Contemporary Art in Boston (I believe it was there, though it may have been the Harvard Film Archives at the Carpenter Center). That movie, made by a group that included the young Isaac Julien, featured the first Black-Black male kiss I'd ever seen on the big screen. It really highlighted for me how rare such images were--and still are.
In the movie "Relax...It's Just Sex" (or is the title something else?) T.C. Carson, formerly of "Living Single," is shown dating--and loving--a Latino man. This was moving for me because again, although I see this kind of pairing in my daily life, it is extremely rare to see onscreen. (Eddie Garcia plays his HIV+ boyfriend, also not dealt with enough onscreen.)
It is about power and privilege, including the power and privilege a very few people (out of the 281 million in this nation) have to make their fantasies and sexual desires, their fetishes and interests, central focus points for the entire world. I think of Calvin Klein, who steadily and continually has elevated his fair-haired, smooth-skinned, buff chicken hawk desires to major commodity emblems. Tonight on TV I saw a commercial featuring a guy who fit this bill, and I said to my partner without even knowing the brand, "This is Calvin Klein, isn't it, or someone just like him?" And it was. I also think of all the tired old Hollywood straight men who endlessly push their fantasies of sex with young thin buxom prostitutes--some with hearts of gold!--onto movie screens, and expect the rest of us--the rest of the world, to simply eat this crap up. Many people do, however.
I would love to see more gay Chinese-American, Vietnamese-American, Korean-American, Desi, etc. directors who feature different takes on gay male and lesbian relationships. Their work would enrich all of us.
[quote]Originally posted by CPT_Doom:
Even with the modern civil rights movement, there are still those out there, straight and gay, who cannot understand the "mixing" of the races in dating. I have friends who have truthfully told me it was "okay" my brother-in-law is Hispanic, because "he doesn't look it," and a neighbor of my sister's refused to let her, her husband, or their sons into this neighbor's house again because my brother-in-law is Puerto Rican. Incredible.
I'm not at all surprised by this. Gay people in this society are a product of this society. The prejudices and biases that exist are internalized by all of us, and it is only through resistance, reflection, and determined self-reprogramming that we really come to deal with so many of them.
Moreover, prejudice exists within groups too! Didn't the British, who share bloodlines with the Irish, consider the latter inferior--and aren't millions of contemporary Britons OF Irish descent? There are color issues within groups, class issues, ethnicity issues, you name it. Power, privilege, status, social context, so many factors that come into play.
I had never encountered inter-Latino prejudices until I worked with an imperious Cuban woman years ago who could not say one good thing about Puerto Ricans, and I found myself defending Boricuas regularly to the point that I finally told her she had a hatred for this group of people that was based on gross stereotypes. When I worked with some wealthier Puerto Ricans a few years ago, they complained about the poor (and Black) Dominicans who were flooding into their island--as if most Puerto Ricans didn't have some African ancestry, and as if there weren't links among ALL the Caribbean peoples. There are many Latinos of various nationalities who think the Black people in their native countries are inferior (if you doubt this, just watch a little of Univision or Telemundo or Gems, where brown and black-skinned Latinos are rare outside of sports or music shows, or cruel skits), and who think that Black Americans are inferior, etc.
One thing I find fascinating is how many "pro-Black," "pro-African" Black men start to squirm when asked if they find real Black Africans attractive. The idea of Africa is interesting to some...but the people? Yet they don't want to hear that Germans, Swiss, Dutch, French, etc. have no problem with the beauty of Africans and rush off to get their groove on in these countries....
Anyways, America is interracial, a mixture of people, and has always been. It remains one of our strengths, despite what critics might say.
Even with the modern civil rights movement, there are still those out there, straight and gay, who cannot understand the "mixing" of the races in dating. I have friends who have truthfully told me it was "okay" my brother-in-law is Hispanic, because "he doesn't look it," and a neighbor of my sister's refused to let her, her husband, or their sons into this neighbor's house again because my brother-in-law is Puerto Rican. Incredible.
I'm not at all surprised by this. Gay people in this society are a product of this society. The prejudices and biases that exist are internalized by all of us, and it is only through resistance, reflection, and determined self-reprogramming that we really come to deal with so many of them.
Moreover, prejudice exists within groups too! Didn't the British, who share bloodlines with the Irish, consider the latter inferior--and aren't millions of contemporary Britons OF Irish descent? There are color issues within groups, class issues, ethnicity issues, you name it. Power, privilege, status, social context, so many factors that come into play.
I had never encountered inter-Latino prejudices until I worked with an imperious Cuban woman years ago who could not say one good thing about Puerto Ricans, and I found myself defending Boricuas regularly to the point that I finally told her she had a hatred for this group of people that was based on gross stereotypes. When I worked with some wealthier Puerto Ricans a few years ago, they complained about the poor (and Black) Dominicans who were flooding into their island--as if most Puerto Ricans didn't have some African ancestry, and as if there weren't links among ALL the Caribbean peoples. There are many Latinos of various nationalities who think the Black people in their native countries are inferior (if you doubt this, just watch a little of Univision or Telemundo or Gems, where brown and black-skinned Latinos are rare outside of sports or music shows, or cruel skits), and who think that Black Americans are inferior, etc.
One thing I find fascinating is how many "pro-Black," "pro-African" Black men start to squirm when asked if they find real Black Africans attractive. The idea of Africa is interesting to some...but the people? Yet they don't want to hear that Germans, Swiss, Dutch, French, etc. have no problem with the beauty of Africans and rush off to get their groove on in these countries....
Anyways, America is interracial, a mixture of people, and has always been. It remains one of our strengths, despite what critics might say.
Alas, I think we mostly seem to agree that race bias is a part of all of us (to at least some degree) whether we like it or not. I've always been wary of the person who says "I don't even notice someones race." Either that person is extremely naive or self-delusional. We all notice race, it is a matter of to what degree it affects our thoughts and actions.
On this forum we interact without a face and without race. Unless someone explicitly writes down his or her race in a post, I don't know what the race is. Yet, I find that I assume white until proven otherwise. Is this merely pragmatic since white is the majority? Or do I just think that white is the majority? In fact, I am pleasantly surprised at the number of gay black men and gay asian men posting. But I shouldn't be surprised should I?
On this forum we interact without a face and without race. Unless someone explicitly writes down his or her race in a post, I don't know what the race is. Yet, I find that I assume white until proven otherwise. Is this merely pragmatic since white is the majority? Or do I just think that white is the majority? In fact, I am pleasantly surprised at the number of gay black men and gay asian men posting. But I shouldn't be surprised should I?
Good points, orsino4, I agree with you on both.
fantomas:
[quote] I agree with you, Aznbutch. The paucity of representations of men-of-color with other men-of-color, other than in pornography, really needs to be discussed and addressed more often. I've said it before: gay is normatively equated with white and middle class; people of color are exotics, others, existing outside the margin. Moreover many of us internalize this and it affects how we view OURSELVES.
This is a good point, too. I see so few Oriental men like myself in the straight media (TV, movies), let alone in gay media. You usually have to look to foreign films to see an Asian couple (the Japanese film Hush, say).
And maybe this has shaped my own feelings... because even in a very Asian city like Toronto, I am more surprised (disturbed?) when I see an Asian-Asian couple than an Asian-white couple. And I personally shun those Asian gay bars, like 'n Touch (is that what it's called?) in San Francisco. Sometimes I have to fight my aversion to gay Asian guys and confront my own internal fears and homophobia. I think that I see myself as "white and middle class" and hence want to associate with others who are white and middle class.
I think this is a very thought-provoking thread.
fantomas:
[quote] I agree with you, Aznbutch. The paucity of representations of men-of-color with other men-of-color, other than in pornography, really needs to be discussed and addressed more often. I've said it before: gay is normatively equated with white and middle class; people of color are exotics, others, existing outside the margin. Moreover many of us internalize this and it affects how we view OURSELVES.
This is a good point, too. I see so few Oriental men like myself in the straight media (TV, movies), let alone in gay media. You usually have to look to foreign films to see an Asian couple (the Japanese film Hush, say).
And maybe this has shaped my own feelings... because even in a very Asian city like Toronto, I am more surprised (disturbed?) when I see an Asian-Asian couple than an Asian-white couple. And I personally shun those Asian gay bars, like 'n Touch (is that what it's called?) in San Francisco. Sometimes I have to fight my aversion to gay Asian guys and confront my own internal fears and homophobia. I think that I see myself as "white and middle class" and hence want to associate with others who are white and middle class.
I think this is a very thought-provoking thread.
Talk about a firestorm.
I think the people who have a problem w/this race mixing are Americans. Living in Jamaica in my teens, I was fortunate enough to see enough interracial relationshps to think nothing of it. After all, we island people are all mixed. Don't forget that most Jamaicans, including myself, see ourselves as Jamaicans first, black next.
With Jamaica being a former British colony, we have inherited a lot of the culture and are fine with it. I've always been amazed that in America, it's better to be "light skinned". In the Islands, no matter how dark skinned you are, if you're parents have money & were well known, you were respected.
We also tend to date what's familiar! I lived in a "white neighorbohood" and all my friends are white - still are. The school I went to was mixed and some black kids kind of looked down on black kids who lived in the white neighbrohood.
It's like if we didn't dress a certain way, walk & talk a certain way or live in a certain neighbrohood, we were not black. Especially if we're from the islands.
I could bring up tons of social issues, but I'll end it here.
Happy Holidays
I think the people who have a problem w/this race mixing are Americans. Living in Jamaica in my teens, I was fortunate enough to see enough interracial relationshps to think nothing of it. After all, we island people are all mixed. Don't forget that most Jamaicans, including myself, see ourselves as Jamaicans first, black next.
With Jamaica being a former British colony, we have inherited a lot of the culture and are fine with it. I've always been amazed that in America, it's better to be "light skinned". In the Islands, no matter how dark skinned you are, if you're parents have money & were well known, you were respected.
We also tend to date what's familiar! I lived in a "white neighorbohood" and all my friends are white - still are. The school I went to was mixed and some black kids kind of looked down on black kids who lived in the white neighbrohood.
It's like if we didn't dress a certain way, walk & talk a certain way or live in a certain neighbrohood, we were not black. Especially if we're from the islands.
I could bring up tons of social issues, but I'll end it here.
Happy Holidays
[quote]Originally posted by kiperoni:
I could bring up tons of social issues, but I'll end it here.
Happy Holidays
I hope we'll see more posts from you kiperoni, and from other north americans of island descent if they're on the board, or even just checking in.
The differences between how the various segments of the african diaspora have experienced interracial interaction are very interesting and instructive. There are probably a lot of myths held by average African Americans (inside the USA) about other african americans (in the Americas but outside the USA) and about Africans - as was alluded to by fantomas.
The more people of African descent speak out about their experiences, the better and healthier this discussion would be.
I could bring up tons of social issues, but I'll end it here.
Happy Holidays
I hope we'll see more posts from you kiperoni, and from other north americans of island descent if they're on the board, or even just checking in.
The differences between how the various segments of the african diaspora have experienced interracial interaction are very interesting and instructive. There are probably a lot of myths held by average African Americans (inside the USA) about other african americans (in the Americas but outside the USA) and about Africans - as was alluded to by fantomas.
The more people of African descent speak out about their experiences, the better and healthier this discussion would be.
Thanks sportinlife! Let's see how many speak up...
[quote]Originally posted by kiperoni:
Talk about a firestorm.
I think the people who have a problem w/this race mixing are Americans.
There's no firestorm here, just an engaging discussion.
Like you I grew up in a white neighborhood and went to predominantly white schools from 5 grade through my graduate degree. I have been called "white-acting," "white-washed," hincty, seditty, etc., by other Black people. It happens. You're not the only one. I still know I'm Black. It also doesn't mean that I ran into the arms of white people--more than enough of them have called me "nigger" to demonstrate that no group has a lock on virtue or superiority. In fact the only group that I've never had ANY problems with is Puerto Ricans! (Boricuas siempre pa'lante, Borinquen!)
Americans are not the only ones who have a "problem w/race mixing." Nazi Germany??? The far right in Britain, Austria, France, Italy, Spain, Sweden, etc.? Perhaps you may want to widen your perspective a bit. A Black friend who studied in China told me that in rural areas the Chinese men were known to STONE Black African students (many of whom went to China during the heyday of African socialism and communism in the 1970s), and he was chased down a street by Chinese racists who feared he was going to "sleep with" Chinese women. The Vietnamese used to shun the mixed-race offspring left behind by American soldiers; in Thailand, until the appearance of Tiger Woods, Black-Thai people have been ostracized as ugly and strange. In Russia, Black people were recently warned to be very careful, because white supremacists there have taken to attacking Black Africans and assaulting anyone Black, including Americans. That country's history of anti-Jewish pogroms and attacks is notorious. The Japanese have tended to abhor intermarriage with Koreans and Chinese, and consider both cultures inferior, though much of Japanese culture comes from both of these ancient cultures. Hutus vs. Tutsis; British vs. Irish; Croatians vs. Serbs; etc. etc. It is NOT only America, my friend--this is one of the places were there has been extensive mixing from top to bottom(s).
Also, Caribbean people also have "skin color" issues as well, which are tied to class AND race. Your example demonstrated this--if the people came from money--as in most places--they were accepted no matter what the color. In Brazil you could be blue-black, but if you were rich, you'd be considered "white." Of course that's another kind of racism, since what's implicit is that blackness is somehow inferior and to be shed once one gains wealth and power. In an almost completely African-descended country like Jamaica, it makes sense that you'd think of Blackness second--the range of racial differences is very small! (Though there are whites, Chinese, and other folks in Jamaica too.) In more mixed Caribbean countries, like Trinidad, Dominican Republic, Cuba, ethnicity, class, and race come into play. Even in Haiti, which is probably the most African-descended country in the hemisphere, these issues come up.
It's cool that you have no problems with being attracted only to blond white men. As others have said, there are many other kinds of men out there, and there are many different kinds of beauty. Thank the GODS that many of us are able to appreciate them. You, who are not a blond white man, may be attractive and beautiful to others who look more like you. It's something to think about.
Talk about a firestorm.
I think the people who have a problem w/this race mixing are Americans.
There's no firestorm here, just an engaging discussion.
Like you I grew up in a white neighborhood and went to predominantly white schools from 5 grade through my graduate degree. I have been called "white-acting," "white-washed," hincty, seditty, etc., by other Black people. It happens. You're not the only one. I still know I'm Black. It also doesn't mean that I ran into the arms of white people--more than enough of them have called me "nigger" to demonstrate that no group has a lock on virtue or superiority. In fact the only group that I've never had ANY problems with is Puerto Ricans! (Boricuas siempre pa'lante, Borinquen!)
Americans are not the only ones who have a "problem w/race mixing." Nazi Germany??? The far right in Britain, Austria, France, Italy, Spain, Sweden, etc.? Perhaps you may want to widen your perspective a bit. A Black friend who studied in China told me that in rural areas the Chinese men were known to STONE Black African students (many of whom went to China during the heyday of African socialism and communism in the 1970s), and he was chased down a street by Chinese racists who feared he was going to "sleep with" Chinese women. The Vietnamese used to shun the mixed-race offspring left behind by American soldiers; in Thailand, until the appearance of Tiger Woods, Black-Thai people have been ostracized as ugly and strange. In Russia, Black people were recently warned to be very careful, because white supremacists there have taken to attacking Black Africans and assaulting anyone Black, including Americans. That country's history of anti-Jewish pogroms and attacks is notorious. The Japanese have tended to abhor intermarriage with Koreans and Chinese, and consider both cultures inferior, though much of Japanese culture comes from both of these ancient cultures. Hutus vs. Tutsis; British vs. Irish; Croatians vs. Serbs; etc. etc. It is NOT only America, my friend--this is one of the places were there has been extensive mixing from top to bottom(s).
Also, Caribbean people also have "skin color" issues as well, which are tied to class AND race. Your example demonstrated this--if the people came from money--as in most places--they were accepted no matter what the color. In Brazil you could be blue-black, but if you were rich, you'd be considered "white." Of course that's another kind of racism, since what's implicit is that blackness is somehow inferior and to be shed once one gains wealth and power. In an almost completely African-descended country like Jamaica, it makes sense that you'd think of Blackness second--the range of racial differences is very small! (Though there are whites, Chinese, and other folks in Jamaica too.) In more mixed Caribbean countries, like Trinidad, Dominican Republic, Cuba, ethnicity, class, and race come into play. Even in Haiti, which is probably the most African-descended country in the hemisphere, these issues come up.
It's cool that you have no problems with being attracted only to blond white men. As others have said, there are many other kinds of men out there, and there are many different kinds of beauty. Thank the GODS that many of us are able to appreciate them. You, who are not a blond white man, may be attractive and beautiful to others who look more like you. It's something to think about.
[quote]Originally posted by fantomas:
There's no firestorm here, just an engaging discussion.
B I N G O, fantomas!!
Moderator Tarkus here: Please don't copy the whole text of someone's post when you're replying to it. One or two sentences is fine; if you're just agreeing with someone, just type "I agree with what you said, XXX". M1 and I are trying to make the threads more readable. Thanks for your help in this vital matter.
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Tarkus ]
There's no firestorm here, just an engaging discussion.
B I N G O, fantomas!!
Moderator Tarkus here: Please don't copy the whole text of someone's post when you're replying to it. One or two sentences is fine; if you're just agreeing with someone, just type "I agree with what you said, XXX". M1 and I are trying to make the threads more readable. Thanks for your help in this vital matter.
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Tarkus ]
Anyone have experiences dating/partnering a person from either Cyprus, Turkey, or one of its eastern neighbors (Also interested in persons of Turkish descent born just west of Turkey.)?
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
Okay, I decided to ad my 2 cents to this thread.
And brace yourself, this post will be a long one.
Anytime you bring up the topic of race, it brings up an interesting debate and healthy conversation. First of all, I agree, no firestorm. I also don't think this is strictly an "American" issue. I have relatives in Japan who feel the same way about marrying someone other than someone of Japanese descent. I also know Europeans who feel the same way about dating someoneother than Anglo. I think it's just something that goes with being Human. There is really no correct answer, just personal feelings and assumptions on the topic. People are going to assume things about you no matter who you date. It's just human nature.
I feel quite chatty today, so I'll give you some background about myself. I'm a fourth generation American of Japanese descent. I was born in San Francisco, but was raised in Hawaii. I went to a private high school that was predominantly Asian. There was only 1 black guy in the entire school and only a handful of Hispanic guys. If you've been to Hawaii, you know that there are a lot of people of mixed blood. Chinese-Hawaiian-Portuguese, or Japanese/Chinese/English/German, etc. In high school, I found myself being attracted to guys who were Hapa (mixed descent). I found Hapa guys, especially Hapa-Haole guys (asian-caucasian mix) very intriguing. I was also interested in the Haole (caucasian) men. And why not? I saw them on TV (this was in the 70's and early 80's), in movies, in magazines, anchoring the news, weren't we all supposed to idolize the Caucasian man? The only hot Asian guy that I remember seeing in the movies at the time was Bruce Lee. And no, I didn't find Pat Morita's "Arnold" from Happy Days hot. Long Duck Dong from "16 Candles" did not make my Duck Dong Long. So, I was always intrigued by white guys.
After high school, I went away to college on the mainland. Yes! Dorm Rooms! Showers! Naked White Guys! There was also one Native American guy on my floor who was extremely hot, and a guy of Iranian decent who had the largest tool and had the hairiest ass that I've seen on a human. There were no black guys and no hispanic guys in my dorm. So, in college, I was mainly attracted to the white boys. I was not totally out at college so I never dated or did anything with anyone. There were a couple of Asian guys in the Hawaii club that I found attractive, but never did anything with them. I mainly hung out with/had crushes on my fellow white boy band geek members. And I was the only Asian dude in the band.
After college (mid-80's) I moved up to Seattle and it took me until about 1990 to become totally out. I started hitting the dating scene. No internet back then, so I wrote my ads and did it via the newspaper personals and the telephone personals. In my ads, I never wrote that I was specifically looking for a GWM or GAM or GBM. I did say that I was a GAM, and then the usual stuff. What's interesting is that 98% of my responses were from White Guys. Of all the ads that I placed over 6 years (and there were many) only 1 guy was Asian, one guy was black and one guy was Turkish. Honest. In the bars, only white guys approached me. I can agree with Canmark that when most of the guys approached me, they thought I was Asian, as in foreign born Asian. Some guys even told me that I was too white for them. Can you believe that? That threw me for a loop. Of course, even some people in Hawaii treat you differently if they think you've become "too haole" and forgot your local roots. Oy. One of my best friends told me that when he first saw me in the bars, he thought I was a Japanese exchange student and that's what he found attractive. At this time, I was only into white guys. I figured if Asian guys were not giving me the time of day, why should I be interested in them? There was a time when I resented the foreign born Asians because they were "ruining" the reputation of being an Asian-American. I really felt like by being Asi-am, I started out at a disadvantage because anytime I had a first date, I would wonder if I had to tell the guy "yes, I'm of asian descent and no, I did not grow up in Japan, China, Vietnam, or the Philippines". When I found guys who were interested in me before they even cared about where I was born, it was truly a bonus. I totally echo Canmark's post about Rice Queens. Been there. Done that. I was young, newly out, naive, and had the usual self-esteem, self pity issues, but eventually, everything worked out for the best. Now, I'm a happy, carefree flirtatious guy who's in a caring, loving relationship. Oh, and my partner is white and of english/irish heritage. He's from a small town in Washington, and never dated an Asian guy, or very many guys, before.
I do find men of all colors extremely hot or sexy. I haven't been single for a long time, and have no plans on being single, but I sometimes wonder if I placed an ad somewhere, would men of color other than white respond to my ad? I know if I were single, I would be open to dating men of any race, but would they be interested in me? Has time changed things? I know one of my single Asian friends has received responses from the same Rice Queens that were responding to my ads 10 years ago! I don't know, maybe it's because I live in Seattle that only white guys respond? I think the responses would probably be different if I moved back to Hawaii. Too many factors to think about. Personally, it's not about the race of a guy for me, it's more about the overall package (no, not THAT package) that does it. The heart & soul of a person always says more to me than the physical features (I'm talking about relationships as opposed to ogling someone).
My feeling is, you can't help who you are attracted to and who you want to date. Interracial, non-interracial, whatever. If you're not attracted to Asian guys, Hispanic guys or whatever, hey, that's fine with me. Whatever rocks your boat, man. Love is love. Sex is sex. You just never know what's going to happen or who you are going to meet that that will change your life. But when it does, BAM! everything goes out the window. You won't care if he's black, white, brown, yellow, pink, or green. You can't change the way people feel about you because they have no idea what it's like to live your life. If they don't like me because I'm Asian, then hey, that's their problem not mine. I don't feel like I have to go out & promote We Are The World to everyone. Hello. Goodbye. I have my own prejudices. I think everyone is prejudice in some regards. It's all part of being human. Which reminds me of another topic. Those Diversity classes that corporate business are into. How can you teach someone about diversity in one day? There is no way unless that person walks the walk and lives their life as a black male, or white male, or asian male, or whatever, and immerses themselves into the culture of someone other than themselves. But that's another topic.
See, told you I was in a chatty mood. Anyway, date whomever you want, as long as it makes you happy. Life's too short to be wondering or getting upset about what other people think about you and your dating habits. So go out & date, and be sure to report back to your coupled buddies here on Outsports. Have fun. Play safe. Be fair.
And brace yourself, this post will be a long one.
Anytime you bring up the topic of race, it brings up an interesting debate and healthy conversation. First of all, I agree, no firestorm. I also don't think this is strictly an "American" issue. I have relatives in Japan who feel the same way about marrying someone other than someone of Japanese descent. I also know Europeans who feel the same way about dating someoneother than Anglo. I think it's just something that goes with being Human. There is really no correct answer, just personal feelings and assumptions on the topic. People are going to assume things about you no matter who you date. It's just human nature.
I feel quite chatty today, so I'll give you some background about myself. I'm a fourth generation American of Japanese descent. I was born in San Francisco, but was raised in Hawaii. I went to a private high school that was predominantly Asian. There was only 1 black guy in the entire school and only a handful of Hispanic guys. If you've been to Hawaii, you know that there are a lot of people of mixed blood. Chinese-Hawaiian-Portuguese, or Japanese/Chinese/English/German, etc. In high school, I found myself being attracted to guys who were Hapa (mixed descent). I found Hapa guys, especially Hapa-Haole guys (asian-caucasian mix) very intriguing. I was also interested in the Haole (caucasian) men. And why not? I saw them on TV (this was in the 70's and early 80's), in movies, in magazines, anchoring the news, weren't we all supposed to idolize the Caucasian man? The only hot Asian guy that I remember seeing in the movies at the time was Bruce Lee. And no, I didn't find Pat Morita's "Arnold" from Happy Days hot. Long Duck Dong from "16 Candles" did not make my Duck Dong Long. So, I was always intrigued by white guys.
After high school, I went away to college on the mainland. Yes! Dorm Rooms! Showers! Naked White Guys! There was also one Native American guy on my floor who was extremely hot, and a guy of Iranian decent who had the largest tool and had the hairiest ass that I've seen on a human. There were no black guys and no hispanic guys in my dorm. So, in college, I was mainly attracted to the white boys. I was not totally out at college so I never dated or did anything with anyone. There were a couple of Asian guys in the Hawaii club that I found attractive, but never did anything with them. I mainly hung out with/had crushes on my fellow white boy band geek members. And I was the only Asian dude in the band.
After college (mid-80's) I moved up to Seattle and it took me until about 1990 to become totally out. I started hitting the dating scene. No internet back then, so I wrote my ads and did it via the newspaper personals and the telephone personals. In my ads, I never wrote that I was specifically looking for a GWM or GAM or GBM. I did say that I was a GAM, and then the usual stuff. What's interesting is that 98% of my responses were from White Guys. Of all the ads that I placed over 6 years (and there were many) only 1 guy was Asian, one guy was black and one guy was Turkish. Honest. In the bars, only white guys approached me. I can agree with Canmark that when most of the guys approached me, they thought I was Asian, as in foreign born Asian. Some guys even told me that I was too white for them. Can you believe that? That threw me for a loop. Of course, even some people in Hawaii treat you differently if they think you've become "too haole" and forgot your local roots. Oy. One of my best friends told me that when he first saw me in the bars, he thought I was a Japanese exchange student and that's what he found attractive. At this time, I was only into white guys. I figured if Asian guys were not giving me the time of day, why should I be interested in them? There was a time when I resented the foreign born Asians because they were "ruining" the reputation of being an Asian-American. I really felt like by being Asi-am, I started out at a disadvantage because anytime I had a first date, I would wonder if I had to tell the guy "yes, I'm of asian descent and no, I did not grow up in Japan, China, Vietnam, or the Philippines". When I found guys who were interested in me before they even cared about where I was born, it was truly a bonus. I totally echo Canmark's post about Rice Queens. Been there. Done that. I was young, newly out, naive, and had the usual self-esteem, self pity issues, but eventually, everything worked out for the best. Now, I'm a happy, carefree flirtatious guy who's in a caring, loving relationship. Oh, and my partner is white and of english/irish heritage. He's from a small town in Washington, and never dated an Asian guy, or very many guys, before.
I do find men of all colors extremely hot or sexy. I haven't been single for a long time, and have no plans on being single, but I sometimes wonder if I placed an ad somewhere, would men of color other than white respond to my ad? I know if I were single, I would be open to dating men of any race, but would they be interested in me? Has time changed things? I know one of my single Asian friends has received responses from the same Rice Queens that were responding to my ads 10 years ago! I don't know, maybe it's because I live in Seattle that only white guys respond? I think the responses would probably be different if I moved back to Hawaii. Too many factors to think about. Personally, it's not about the race of a guy for me, it's more about the overall package (no, not THAT package) that does it. The heart & soul of a person always says more to me than the physical features (I'm talking about relationships as opposed to ogling someone).
My feeling is, you can't help who you are attracted to and who you want to date. Interracial, non-interracial, whatever. If you're not attracted to Asian guys, Hispanic guys or whatever, hey, that's fine with me. Whatever rocks your boat, man. Love is love. Sex is sex. You just never know what's going to happen or who you are going to meet that that will change your life. But when it does, BAM! everything goes out the window. You won't care if he's black, white, brown, yellow, pink, or green. You can't change the way people feel about you because they have no idea what it's like to live your life. If they don't like me because I'm Asian, then hey, that's their problem not mine. I don't feel like I have to go out & promote We Are The World to everyone. Hello. Goodbye. I have my own prejudices. I think everyone is prejudice in some regards. It's all part of being human. Which reminds me of another topic. Those Diversity classes that corporate business are into. How can you teach someone about diversity in one day? There is no way unless that person walks the walk and lives their life as a black male, or white male, or asian male, or whatever, and immerses themselves into the culture of someone other than themselves. But that's another topic.
See, told you I was in a chatty mood. Anyway, date whomever you want, as long as it makes you happy. Life's too short to be wondering or getting upset about what other people think about you and your dating habits. So go out & date, and be sure to report back to your coupled buddies here on Outsports. Have fun. Play safe. Be fair.
I have already given my 2 cents on this issue, but I will say this: Just trying to read all the posts from day-to-day is like trying to get through WAR AND PEACE. Everyone has SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much to say about the topic. I love it, but it does get a little tiresome. Also I think that many are saying the same things more than once, or are paraphrasing something that has already been said. I think that people should post if they have something NEW to add to the discussion or another outlook. It would make it a lot easier to get through. It takes me nearly my whole break to get through this one thread (or maybe it's just that I'm a sloe reader). That's just what I'm feelin right now.
Da Kid.
P.S.: I still love you guys!
Da Kid.
P.S.: I still love you guys!
[quote]Originally posted by Mariner Duck Boy:
What's interesting is that 98% of my responses were from White Guys.
(I vaguely remember discussing this before, so forgive me if I'm rehashing an old thread...)
One of my really close (gay) friends is Asian - originally from Korea and adopted by a white family (which throws another whole issue into this discussion, I suppose). He always complains that basically every guy who approaches him assumes he's going to be 100% "submissive" (when he really prefers to be versatile-to-top).
Is this a stereotype you've encountered, Duck Boy? (I know this is a poor excuse for research, but pornography especially seems to perpetuate this - you often see Asians "servicing" white guys but rarely the other way around.) Could it be a case where the stereotype is based in fact?
Sorry if this sounds vague, I'm trying to keep this fairly clean.
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: E Z E ]
What's interesting is that 98% of my responses were from White Guys.
(I vaguely remember discussing this before, so forgive me if I'm rehashing an old thread...)
One of my really close (gay) friends is Asian - originally from Korea and adopted by a white family (which throws another whole issue into this discussion, I suppose). He always complains that basically every guy who approaches him assumes he's going to be 100% "submissive" (when he really prefers to be versatile-to-top).
Is this a stereotype you've encountered, Duck Boy? (I know this is a poor excuse for research, but pornography especially seems to perpetuate this - you often see Asians "servicing" white guys but rarely the other way around.) Could it be a case where the stereotype is based in fact?
Sorry if this sounds vague, I'm trying to keep this fairly clean.
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: E Z E ]
One other thing that adds a degree of delineation is the difference between cruising, dating, and living together. I have a friend who summed this up nicely:
Everyone thinks I'm into blondes. I'm not. I'm more attracted to dark-haired men. I just fell in love with a blonde.
Everyone thinks I'm into blondes. I'm not. I'm more attracted to dark-haired men. I just fell in love with a blonde.
Thanks for sharing your story Mariner Duck Boy (and for your hints on what to do in Amsterdam, I had a great time despite the shitty weather).
I am curious whether you think it's important that you KNOW that you are fourth generation asian. (no mixing at all? ). Most blacks would not even know if they have pure African ancestors back that far. But many might know if they DON'T. I KNOW that I don't.
A defining characteristic distinguishing blacks from other minorities is slavery. It introduces a lot of question marks and unique challenges.
I hear you C4L about the length of this thread. But it sure is interesting. Lots of variety in opinions showing up too. I like that. I tried to keep this one short. Hope I haven't ruined your break.
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
I am curious whether you think it's important that you KNOW that you are fourth generation asian. (no mixing at all? ). Most blacks would not even know if they have pure African ancestors back that far. But many might know if they DON'T. I KNOW that I don't.
A defining characteristic distinguishing blacks from other minorities is slavery. It introduces a lot of question marks and unique challenges.
I hear you C4L about the length of this thread. But it sure is interesting. Lots of variety in opinions showing up too. I like that. I tried to keep this one short. Hope I haven't ruined your break.
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
[quote]Originally posted by Mariner Duck Boy:
I haven't been single for a long time, and have no plans on being single, but I sometimes wonder if I placed an ad somewhere, would men of color other than white respond to my ad? I know if I were single, I would be open to dating men of any race, but would they be interested in me? Has time changed things?
Maybe not; but I, personally, have dated several Asian men, and have seen a few gay Asian-Black couples.
Perhaps you would specify in one of your ads for men of color, as without this point, you would get 90% white men.
- - - - -
Incidentally, I used to think, for years, that the Asian weren't interested in Black men - but I grew up in Detroit and lived in the DC area, two places where there are not a lot of single, LGBT Asians looking.
[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
I haven't been single for a long time, and have no plans on being single, but I sometimes wonder if I placed an ad somewhere, would men of color other than white respond to my ad? I know if I were single, I would be open to dating men of any race, but would they be interested in me? Has time changed things?
Maybe not; but I, personally, have dated several Asian men, and have seen a few gay Asian-Black couples.
Perhaps you would specify in one of your ads for men of color, as without this point, you would get 90% white men.
- - - - -
Incidentally, I used to think, for years, that the Asian weren't interested in Black men - but I grew up in Detroit and lived in the DC area, two places where there are not a lot of single, LGBT Asians looking.
[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
[quote] Originally posted by EZE: One of my really close (gay) friends is Asian - originally from Korea and adopted by a white family (which throws another whole issue into this discussion, I suppose). He always complains that basically every guy who approaches him assumes he's going to be 100% "submissive" (when he really prefers to be versatile-to-top).
Is this a stereotype you've encountered, Duck Boy? (I know this is a poor excuse for research, but pornography especially seems to perpetuate this - you often see Asians "servicing" white guys but rarely the other way around.) Could it be a case where the stereotype is based in fact?
Can't say that I have faced this much. That's because once you start talking to me, you will know that I am not submissive...Only when I want to be
[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
I am curious whether you think it's important that you KNOW that you are fourth generation asian. (no mixing at all? ). Most blacks would not even know if they have pure African ancestors back that far. But many might know if they DON'T. I KNOW that I don't.
Hey sportinlife, I'm not sure if I completely understand your question, but personally, I think it is important to know your roots. I find it very interesting. I know I'm fourth generation (yon-sei)American because I knew my Great-Grandparents. They were the one who came to Hawaii from Okinawa to work in the pineapple fields.
Bluebird: Maybe if I'm ever single again, I'll specifically say "ALL men are free to apply!"
Is this a stereotype you've encountered, Duck Boy? (I know this is a poor excuse for research, but pornography especially seems to perpetuate this - you often see Asians "servicing" white guys but rarely the other way around.) Could it be a case where the stereotype is based in fact?
Can't say that I have faced this much. That's because once you start talking to me, you will know that I am not submissive...Only when I want to be
[quote]Originally posted by sportinlife:
I am curious whether you think it's important that you KNOW that you are fourth generation asian. (no mixing at all? ). Most blacks would not even know if they have pure African ancestors back that far. But many might know if they DON'T. I KNOW that I don't.
Hey sportinlife, I'm not sure if I completely understand your question, but personally, I think it is important to know your roots. I find it very interesting. I know I'm fourth generation (yon-sei)American because I knew my Great-Grandparents. They were the one who came to Hawaii from Okinawa to work in the pineapple fields.
Bluebird: Maybe if I'm ever single again, I'll specifically say "ALL men are free to apply!"
Just want to say what a terrific topic this is and how impressed I am at the well thought-out arguments everyone has. Maybe some of you ought to send me a column once in a while.
sup peoples,
i just wanted to respond to kiperoni's suggestion
that people in the caribbean have less of a sense
of racial strife than us in the americas. it's not true. white supremacy and self hate on the part of people of color is a world wide problem.
the jamaica i know refers to me as a "brownin'"
and i was told that if i did not accept my social
position, i would be ostracized by both blacks
and browns. i think the fact that white people are by far the minority in population but the majority in wealth and power in jamaica says a lot
about jamaica's slaving/colonial past, more than just inheriting british tastes and traits. how many white people worked the sugar plantations after the arawak population was annihiliated and africans and south asians were brought in to toil?
are there any white maroons living in the hills?
can i get a good job speaking patois? hmmmm...
finally, i think that by saying you refer to yourself as jamaican then black, you are paying homage to the immigrant model of self improvement in america that does not work many times for black people. the uproar over the assault of haitian immigrant abner louima illustrates how this paradigm can change. black in america is bad because blacks are dumb and lazy (but make great slave workers, how ironic); why is it that black is something to be avoided until some doodoo goes down, then everybody wants to mobilize?
class is big in jamaica, yes. but i'd still say that a poor white man has more clout than a rich
chocolate man any day, any time, any where.
the slaveship may have landed in kingston, but the racial problems that exist in brasila, cape town, and new york are parallel. one heart.
p.s.- kiperoni, this is a conversation i have often with friends, so please do not feel as if i am attacking you, i am just going with my vibe.
jay
i just wanted to respond to kiperoni's suggestion
that people in the caribbean have less of a sense
of racial strife than us in the americas. it's not true. white supremacy and self hate on the part of people of color is a world wide problem.
the jamaica i know refers to me as a "brownin'"
and i was told that if i did not accept my social
position, i would be ostracized by both blacks
and browns. i think the fact that white people are by far the minority in population but the majority in wealth and power in jamaica says a lot
about jamaica's slaving/colonial past, more than just inheriting british tastes and traits. how many white people worked the sugar plantations after the arawak population was annihiliated and africans and south asians were brought in to toil?
are there any white maroons living in the hills?
can i get a good job speaking patois? hmmmm...
finally, i think that by saying you refer to yourself as jamaican then black, you are paying homage to the immigrant model of self improvement in america that does not work many times for black people. the uproar over the assault of haitian immigrant abner louima illustrates how this paradigm can change. black in america is bad because blacks are dumb and lazy (but make great slave workers, how ironic); why is it that black is something to be avoided until some doodoo goes down, then everybody wants to mobilize?
class is big in jamaica, yes. but i'd still say that a poor white man has more clout than a rich
chocolate man any day, any time, any where.
the slaveship may have landed in kingston, but the racial problems that exist in brasila, cape town, and new york are parallel. one heart.
p.s.- kiperoni, this is a conversation i have often with friends, so please do not feel as if i am attacking you, i am just going with my vibe.
jay
jay original your description of the racial situation in the Carribean sounds very much like what my impressions are.
Mariner Duck Boy I thought after posting that I should have used the word "significant" rather than "important", and should have clarified (too lazy to boot up the computer again just for that ). What I was suggesting was that the fact that you, like many asians that I know, are aware of your family history extending relatively far back. A former chinese co-worker of mine claimed, and I have little reason to doubt him, that his family had been traced back almost 5000 years. There are few people of any race who can document such a claim.
That kind of social/historical security may influence greatly the self-esteem of asian americans as opposed to black americans who are by comparison relatively severed from their roots (from the standpoint of specific documentation).
Jim at Outsports: Would that be a "sports-related" story you're talking about? This has been a fun topic for me but I wonder would Outsport readers in general really be interested in "interracial dating". Not that I'd complain, even though I'm "not in the market" so to speak.
[ December 14, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
Mariner Duck Boy I thought after posting that I should have used the word "significant" rather than "important", and should have clarified (too lazy to boot up the computer again just for that ). What I was suggesting was that the fact that you, like many asians that I know, are aware of your family history extending relatively far back. A former chinese co-worker of mine claimed, and I have little reason to doubt him, that his family had been traced back almost 5000 years. There are few people of any race who can document such a claim.
That kind of social/historical security may influence greatly the self-esteem of asian americans as opposed to black americans who are by comparison relatively severed from their roots (from the standpoint of specific documentation).
Jim at Outsports: Would that be a "sports-related" story you're talking about? This has been a fun topic for me but I wonder would Outsport readers in general really be interested in "interracial dating". Not that I'd complain, even though I'm "not in the market" so to speak.
[ December 14, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
[quote]Originally posted by E Z E:
One of my really close (gay) friends is Asian... he always complains that basically every guy who approaches him assumes he's going to be 100% "submissive" (when he really prefers to be versatile-to-top).
(I know this is a poor excuse for research, but pornography especially seems to perpetuate this - you often see Asians "servicing" white guys but rarely the other way around.) Could it be a case where the stereotype is based in fact?
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: E Z E ]
This is the stereotype, but it's not based on fact. (Are we to imagine that everyone in Asia is a bottom? How do they have sex then?)
Once I had a white guy tell me: "I've never met a Filipino who wasn't a bottom." (And I thought to myself: "And you're telling me this for what reason?")
Asians "servicing" whites could easily be a perpetuation of the whole Madame Butterfly/rice queen stereotype. (See the play M. Butterfly, where the Chinese "actress" compares the Madama Butterfly story to a "homecoming queen" killing herself for a "short, Japanese businessman." Such a thing would be laughable, but if it's a Japanese woman killing herself for a white American... it is seen as "beautiful.")
It seems to me that Asians and Blacks suffer from the opposite stereotypes. Asians are seen as "small" and hence "bottoms" and Blacks are seen as "big" and hence "tops." But, of course, there are black bottoms and Asian tops.
sportinlife:
[quote]That kind of social/historical security may influence greatly the self-esteem of asian americans as opposed to black americans who are by comparison relatively severed from their roots (from the standpoint of specific documentation).
I don't know if this is entirely true. I know many Japanese-Canadians/Americans are cut off from family associations in the homeland because of the internment during the war.
I might propose that Asians benefit from positive stereotypes in society (ie. good at math, play the violin, non-athletic, non-violent, non-criminal, non-sexual, not into drugs... virtually the opposite of the stereotypes for blacks). Of course, world history tells us these are untrue and that Asians are as violent and sexual, etc. as anybody else... but may lead to positive self-esteem as much as negative stereotypes lead to poor self-esteem among blacks.
I'll stop now. Thanks for indulging me, guys. Clearly this is a big issue for me.
One of my really close (gay) friends is Asian... he always complains that basically every guy who approaches him assumes he's going to be 100% "submissive" (when he really prefers to be versatile-to-top).
(I know this is a poor excuse for research, but pornography especially seems to perpetuate this - you often see Asians "servicing" white guys but rarely the other way around.) Could it be a case where the stereotype is based in fact?
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: E Z E ]
This is the stereotype, but it's not based on fact. (Are we to imagine that everyone in Asia is a bottom? How do they have sex then?)
Once I had a white guy tell me: "I've never met a Filipino who wasn't a bottom." (And I thought to myself: "And you're telling me this for what reason?")
Asians "servicing" whites could easily be a perpetuation of the whole Madame Butterfly/rice queen stereotype. (See the play M. Butterfly, where the Chinese "actress" compares the Madama Butterfly story to a "homecoming queen" killing herself for a "short, Japanese businessman." Such a thing would be laughable, but if it's a Japanese woman killing herself for a white American... it is seen as "beautiful.")
It seems to me that Asians and Blacks suffer from the opposite stereotypes. Asians are seen as "small" and hence "bottoms" and Blacks are seen as "big" and hence "tops." But, of course, there are black bottoms and Asian tops.
sportinlife:
[quote]That kind of social/historical security may influence greatly the self-esteem of asian americans as opposed to black americans who are by comparison relatively severed from their roots (from the standpoint of specific documentation).
I don't know if this is entirely true. I know many Japanese-Canadians/Americans are cut off from family associations in the homeland because of the internment during the war.
I might propose that Asians benefit from positive stereotypes in society (ie. good at math, play the violin, non-athletic, non-violent, non-criminal, non-sexual, not into drugs... virtually the opposite of the stereotypes for blacks). Of course, world history tells us these are untrue and that Asians are as violent and sexual, etc. as anybody else... but may lead to positive self-esteem as much as negative stereotypes lead to poor self-esteem among blacks.
I'll stop now. Thanks for indulging me, guys. Clearly this is a big issue for me.
[quote]Originally posted by E Z E:
One of my really close (gay) friends is Asian - originally from Korea ...basically every guy who approaches him assumes he's going to be 100% "submissive"
There are always stereotypes for all of us - people think military guys & cops are always tops!
One of my really close (gay) friends is Asian - originally from Korea ...basically every guy who approaches him assumes he's going to be 100% "submissive"
There are always stereotypes for all of us - people think military guys & cops are always tops!
Being a military veteran (honorably discharged in 1998), I can honestly tell you that there were and are tops and BOTTOMS in the military. I knew some of each. I also dated a cop while living in Austin, TX, and he was very versatile, believe me!! :-)
[quote]Originally posted by canmark:
It seems to me that Asians and Blacks suffer from the opposite stereotypes. Asians are seen as "small" and hence "bottoms" and Blacks are seen as "big" and hence "tops." But, of course, there are black bottoms and Asian tops.
Exactly. Black men in American (and even European and Latin American) popular culture have long suffered from stereotypes around being bestial, oversexed, and extremely well-hung (the obsession with the Black male body and genitalia in particular were frequent elements of lynchings). The converse is the Black male who is asexual, especially if white women are involved.
I agree that outside of Bruce Lee, Asian men have often been portrayed as less manly and cerebral, and the stereotype is that they're underendowed. However, some of the late 19th century-early 20th century discourse and legislation that prevented Chinese-white intermarriage out West used some of the "savage" imagery and language for Chinese men in an effort to "protect" white females (who of course were thus denied their own agency and desires). I asked, echoing someone else here, about the absence of an Asian male character on "The Real World" and other shows, and I think it's telling that outside of a few shows ("21 Jump Street," "V.I.P.," "CSI Miami," etc.), Asian men tend to be the last to be written into scripts. But I also wonder about Asian writers and directors: I mean, Gregg Araki, whose work I used to love, had movie after movie without any Asian males at all!
A question, Canmark: You mentioned that you sometimes thought of yourself as "white and middle-class," which I find very interesting. How do you see or view yourself? What is your physical ideal or do you have one? Do (other) Asian men ever fit that model or those models? I think this goes to the heart of the kinds of men we eroticize and desire.
It seems to me that Asians and Blacks suffer from the opposite stereotypes. Asians are seen as "small" and hence "bottoms" and Blacks are seen as "big" and hence "tops." But, of course, there are black bottoms and Asian tops.
Exactly. Black men in American (and even European and Latin American) popular culture have long suffered from stereotypes around being bestial, oversexed, and extremely well-hung (the obsession with the Black male body and genitalia in particular were frequent elements of lynchings). The converse is the Black male who is asexual, especially if white women are involved.
I agree that outside of Bruce Lee, Asian men have often been portrayed as less manly and cerebral, and the stereotype is that they're underendowed. However, some of the late 19th century-early 20th century discourse and legislation that prevented Chinese-white intermarriage out West used some of the "savage" imagery and language for Chinese men in an effort to "protect" white females (who of course were thus denied their own agency and desires). I asked, echoing someone else here, about the absence of an Asian male character on "The Real World" and other shows, and I think it's telling that outside of a few shows ("21 Jump Street," "V.I.P.," "CSI Miami," etc.), Asian men tend to be the last to be written into scripts. But I also wonder about Asian writers and directors: I mean, Gregg Araki, whose work I used to love, had movie after movie without any Asian males at all!
A question, Canmark: You mentioned that you sometimes thought of yourself as "white and middle-class," which I find very interesting. How do you see or view yourself? What is your physical ideal or do you have one? Do (other) Asian men ever fit that model or those models? I think this goes to the heart of the kinds of men we eroticize and desire.
[quote]Originally posted by canmark:
This is the stereotype, but it's not based on fact. (Are we to imagine that everyone in Asia is a bottom? How do they have sex then?)
It seems to me that Asians and Blacks suffer from the opposite stereotypes. Asians are seen as "small" and hence "bottoms" and Blacks are seen as "big" and hence "tops." But, of course, there are black bottoms and Asian tops.
That is interesting. Clearly, I suppose, the situation in Asia must be very different, because, like you said, they can't all be bottoms. Is it just the American perception of Asians as "small & meek" that drives this stereotype, then? Maybe Asian guys adjust their own preferences to fit in with the stereotype? That's what my friend has done, to a certain extent.
So many questions...
This is the stereotype, but it's not based on fact. (Are we to imagine that everyone in Asia is a bottom? How do they have sex then?)
It seems to me that Asians and Blacks suffer from the opposite stereotypes. Asians are seen as "small" and hence "bottoms" and Blacks are seen as "big" and hence "tops." But, of course, there are black bottoms and Asian tops.
That is interesting. Clearly, I suppose, the situation in Asia must be very different, because, like you said, they can't all be bottoms. Is it just the American perception of Asians as "small & meek" that drives this stereotype, then? Maybe Asian guys adjust their own preferences to fit in with the stereotype? That's what my friend has done, to a certain extent.
So many questions...
[quote]Originally posted by fantomas:
A question, Canmark: You mentioned that you sometimes thought of yourself as "white and middle-class," which I find very interesting. How do you see or view yourself? What is your physical ideal or do you have one? Do (other) Asian men ever fit that model or those models? I think this goes to the heart of the kinds of men we eroticize and desire.
Although I went to a multi-ethnic grade school, my high school (the age when I realized I was attracted to men) was 95% white (a middle-class suburb). My only non-white friends (Jamaican, Guyanese, Trinadadian, Anglo-Pakistani) were female. The guys at school I fantacized about were all white, the mainstream media is predominantly white, homoerotica is mostly white... perhaps those early experiences shaped my desires. I don't know.
I know that when I went to university and was surrounded by an ethnic crowd again, despite the fact that many of my fellow students were Asian like me, I felt different from them--like I was a white boy surrounded by Chinese. Not that I felt any better--just different.
What do I think of myself now? I don't really associate with any gay Asian men, so I have difficulty relating. My gay friends are all white, and I feel like I fit into that (albeit small) crowd.
I don't fret that I'm not attracted to Asian guys. I mean, I'm Japanese but you don't see me chowing down at the sushi bar either.
Re: EZE's comments
I think part of the reason this issue gets to me is that I feel that gay Asians sometimes defer to white guys. Like they eagerly take on the houseboy/bottom boy role to an older, more affluent man.... like that's some kind of accomplishment. As I write this... I can see that I resent this because they're taking on the traditional "woman's" role. And I would rather we (Asians) assert ourselves--like modern women--and say that we are not dependant on the white man--but equal. And we don't have to defer to anybody. And shouldn't allow others to treat us as less than equal.
(Sorry for the rambling....)
A question, Canmark: You mentioned that you sometimes thought of yourself as "white and middle-class," which I find very interesting. How do you see or view yourself? What is your physical ideal or do you have one? Do (other) Asian men ever fit that model or those models? I think this goes to the heart of the kinds of men we eroticize and desire.
Although I went to a multi-ethnic grade school, my high school (the age when I realized I was attracted to men) was 95% white (a middle-class suburb). My only non-white friends (Jamaican, Guyanese, Trinadadian, Anglo-Pakistani) were female. The guys at school I fantacized about were all white, the mainstream media is predominantly white, homoerotica is mostly white... perhaps those early experiences shaped my desires. I don't know.
I know that when I went to university and was surrounded by an ethnic crowd again, despite the fact that many of my fellow students were Asian like me, I felt different from them--like I was a white boy surrounded by Chinese. Not that I felt any better--just different.
What do I think of myself now? I don't really associate with any gay Asian men, so I have difficulty relating. My gay friends are all white, and I feel like I fit into that (albeit small) crowd.
I don't fret that I'm not attracted to Asian guys. I mean, I'm Japanese but you don't see me chowing down at the sushi bar either.
Re: EZE's comments
I think part of the reason this issue gets to me is that I feel that gay Asians sometimes defer to white guys. Like they eagerly take on the houseboy/bottom boy role to an older, more affluent man.... like that's some kind of accomplishment. As I write this... I can see that I resent this because they're taking on the traditional "woman's" role. And I would rather we (Asians) assert ourselves--like modern women--and say that we are not dependant on the white man--but equal. And we don't have to defer to anybody. And shouldn't allow others to treat us as less than equal.
(Sorry for the rambling....)
[quote]Originally posted by copman:
There are always stereotypes for all of us - people think military guys & cops are always tops!
I thought the stereotype was marine=bottom.
Just goes to show that stereotypes are poor predictors in a lot of things.
I don't think there is anything wrong with consciously trying to overcome stereotypes regardless of the origin. To the contrary it is a good thing.
Beauty, power, creativity, etc. can be found in people of all colors. But you have to be open to seeing it.
[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
There are always stereotypes for all of us - people think military guys & cops are always tops!
I thought the stereotype was marine=bottom.
Just goes to show that stereotypes are poor predictors in a lot of things.
I don't think there is anything wrong with consciously trying to overcome stereotypes regardless of the origin. To the contrary it is a good thing.
Beauty, power, creativity, etc. can be found in people of all colors. But you have to be open to seeing it.
[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
[quote]Originally posted by copman:
There are always stereotypes for all of us - people think military guys & cops are always tops!
Yeah, I think I used to lean toward that assumption.
Thanks for assisting me in making the final break, copman.
There are always stereotypes for all of us - people think military guys & cops are always tops!
Yeah, I think I used to lean toward that assumption.
Thanks for assisting me in making the final break, copman.
[quote]Originally posted by canmark:
I don't fret that I'm not attracted to Asian guys. I mean, I'm Japanese but you don't see me chowing down at the sushi bar either.
You're not rambling.....
- - - - -
Thanks for blowing my "Japan at the sushi bar" stereotype to smitheeens! The pictures in my head were, as I see now, TOTALLY obsolete.
That was VERY MUCH needed.
[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
I don't fret that I'm not attracted to Asian guys. I mean, I'm Japanese but you don't see me chowing down at the sushi bar either.
You're not rambling.....
- - - - -
Thanks for blowing my "Japan at the sushi bar" stereotype to smitheeens! The pictures in my head were, as I see now, TOTALLY obsolete.
That was VERY MUCH needed.
[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]
Hey Canmark,
I've got some questions for you, my friend. You mentioned:
[quote] What do I think of myself now? I don't really associate with any gay Asian men, so I have difficulty relating. My gay friends are all white, and I feel like I fit into that (albeit small) crowd.
Do you not associate with Asian men by choice or because you have not found one that's compatible with you? Why would you have difficulty relating to Asian men? And by Asian, are you referring to all Asians, Canadian/American born Asian, or foreign born Asians? If they are Canadian, wouldn't some of them share similarities with you? I can understand how you don't find Asian men sexually attractive, but do you consciously not make friends with guys of Asian descent because they are Asian or simply because you see yourself as being white middle class? I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter.
For me, there were times when I hated being Asian because I felt like I was a white guy trapped in an Asian man's body. This feeling came out more when I moved to the "mainland" afer high school. I used to hate meeting other Asians from Hawaii, especially those who didn't move away from home, because I felt like I "grew-up" and was better than them. I was such an arrogant prick. I can say that I don't feel this way anymore and I don't know what changed the way I felt about other Asians but now, my Asian friends are all over the board. Some were born in Hawaii, some were born on the mainland, and some were born in Japan, Vietnam or Korea & moved to the United States at some point in their lives. I still have some prejudices (the Rice Queen stereotype is really hard to shake) but for the most part, I'm open to meeting and befriending men of all races. It's the only way I can really learn about other cultures.
Truth be told, in everyday life, the only time I see myself as being Asian is when I see myself in a mirror, or if it is brought up in topics like this. Otherwise, I just see myself blending into the crowd, adapting to everyday life. Now maybe if I were somewhere down South where there are less Asians, I may feel a little different.
[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mariner Duck Boy ]
I've got some questions for you, my friend. You mentioned:
[quote] What do I think of myself now? I don't really associate with any gay Asian men, so I have difficulty relating. My gay friends are all white, and I feel like I fit into that (albeit small) crowd.
Do you not associate with Asian men by choice or because you have not found one that's compatible with you? Why would you have difficulty relating to Asian men? And by Asian, are you referring to all Asians, Canadian/American born Asian, or foreign born Asians? If they are Canadian, wouldn't some of them share similarities with you? I can understand how you don't find Asian men sexually attractive, but do you consciously not make friends with guys of Asian descent because they are Asian or simply because you see yourself as being white middle class? I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter.
For me, there were times when I hated being Asian because I felt like I was a white guy trapped in an Asian man's body. This feeling came out more when I moved to the "mainland" afer high school. I used to hate meeting other Asians from Hawaii, especially those who didn't move away from home, because I felt like I "grew-up" and was better than them. I was such an arrogant prick. I can say that I don't feel this way anymore and I don't know what changed the way I felt about other Asians but now, my Asian friends are all over the board. Some were born in Hawaii, some were born on the mainland, and some were born in Japan, Vietnam or Korea & moved to the United States at some point in their lives. I still have some prejudices (the Rice Queen stereotype is really hard to shake) but for the most part, I'm open to meeting and befriending men of all races. It's the only way I can really learn about other cultures.
Truth be told, in everyday life, the only time I see myself as being Asian is when I see myself in a mirror, or if it is brought up in topics like this. Otherwise, I just see myself blending into the crowd, adapting to everyday life. Now maybe if I were somewhere down South where there are less Asians, I may feel a little different.
[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mariner Duck Boy ]
[quote]Originally posted by Mariner Duck Boy:
Truth be told, in everyday life, the only time I see myself as being Asian is when I see myself in a mirror, or if it is brought up in topics like this. Otherwise, I just see myself blending into the crowd, adapting to everyday life. Now maybe if I were somewhere down South where there are less Asians, I may feel a little different.
First time I've seen that stated by an Asian. I share those sentiments to some extent, however it is more difficult to ever forget your race if you are African American, as I am.
You do so at your own peril in many cases. It can lead to a tendency to deny that racism still exists, albeit in more subtle forms. Denial doesn't make a problem go away.
Truth be told, in everyday life, the only time I see myself as being Asian is when I see myself in a mirror, or if it is brought up in topics like this. Otherwise, I just see myself blending into the crowd, adapting to everyday life. Now maybe if I were somewhere down South where there are less Asians, I may feel a little different.
First time I've seen that stated by an Asian. I share those sentiments to some extent, however it is more difficult to ever forget your race if you are African American, as I am.
You do so at your own peril in many cases. It can lead to a tendency to deny that racism still exists, albeit in more subtle forms. Denial doesn't make a problem go away.
[quote]Originally posted by Mariner Duck Boy:
Hey Canmark,
I've got some questions for you, my friend.
Do you not associate with Asian men by choice or because you have not found one that's compatible with you? Why would you have difficulty relating to Asian men?
Goodness, you guys sure make a guy think.
mdb, I certainly have male/female straight friends who are Asian, but have avoided gay Asian males. Perhaps there is some internalized homophobia there, and I think maybe I've bought into the stereotype myself. Like I see myself more similar to middle-class white gay guys than middle-class Asian gay guys (which is what I am myself) because I think Asian gay guys are XYZ. I think it's good for me to know guys like you and rickinto--Asian-American/Canadians who I can relate to and see that we have things in common.
sportinlife: "First time I've seen that stated by an Asian. I share those sentiments to some extent, however it is more difficult to ever forget your race if you are African American, as I am."
I think the stereotype of Asians is that we're quite harmless and as such are able to blend in easily.
However, the lack of Asians in the media does distress me at times. Whenever I see one of those rainbow Gap commercials I keep thinking "Why can't they throw in a token Oriental or South Asian or Middle-Eastern or Southeast Asian or Latino or even an ethnic-white person?" It's always black and white. And I point out the Gap because they're based in San Francisco, a city with lots of Asians, in a state with lots of Mexicans, and not so many blacks. (Or course they don't show gay-looking people either... despite the fact that the sales staff at some Gap stores is almost exclusively gay.)
Hey Canmark,
I've got some questions for you, my friend.
Do you not associate with Asian men by choice or because you have not found one that's compatible with you? Why would you have difficulty relating to Asian men?
Goodness, you guys sure make a guy think.
mdb, I certainly have male/female straight friends who are Asian, but have avoided gay Asian males. Perhaps there is some internalized homophobia there, and I think maybe I've bought into the stereotype myself. Like I see myself more similar to middle-class white gay guys than middle-class Asian gay guys (which is what I am myself) because I think Asian gay guys are XYZ. I think it's good for me to know guys like you and rickinto--Asian-American/Canadians who I can relate to and see that we have things in common.
sportinlife: "First time I've seen that stated by an Asian. I share those sentiments to some extent, however it is more difficult to ever forget your race if you are African American, as I am."
I think the stereotype of Asians is that we're quite harmless and as such are able to blend in easily.
However, the lack of Asians in the media does distress me at times. Whenever I see one of those rainbow Gap commercials I keep thinking "Why can't they throw in a token Oriental or South Asian or Middle-Eastern or Southeast Asian or Latino or even an ethnic-white person?" It's always black and white. And I point out the Gap because they're based in San Francisco, a city with lots of Asians, in a state with lots of Mexicans, and not so many blacks. (Or course they don't show gay-looking people either... despite the fact that the sales staff at some Gap stores is almost exclusively gay.)
Canmark, I can very much relate to your self-perceptions. I've always wondered why I'm not attracted to other Asian men.
As for gay Asian friends, I have many; but I don't know their sexual role preferences. Perhaps this is an advantage for me. I never find myself looking at an Asian guy with a non-Asian partner and think 'bottom' or 'top' or anything. Furthermore, no one knows my preference either (I'm told it is a hot topic of debate and discussion among our friends).
I've never had a situation arise where I was assumed to be a bottom due to my race, but I'm also in an interracial LTR, not interracial dating.
...or maybe it's because I'm so butch
As for gay Asian friends, I have many; but I don't know their sexual role preferences. Perhaps this is an advantage for me. I never find myself looking at an Asian guy with a non-Asian partner and think 'bottom' or 'top' or anything. Furthermore, no one knows my preference either (I'm told it is a hot topic of debate and discussion among our friends).
I've never had a situation arise where I was assumed to be a bottom due to my race, but I'm also in an interracial LTR, not interracial dating.
...or maybe it's because I'm so butch
Well, Da Kid is loving this thread. I must admit that I know very little about Asians in general, much less gay asians. I thank all of you for enlightening me to the topic. Please keep the posts coming, I'm actually learning a lot.
On the whole bottom/top stereotype thing, I often find that many guys that I date assume that I am a top simply because I act "masculine" (or whatever that is supposed to mean) and because I have what some consider to be a large penis (although I think it's just ordinary). I actually am very heppy being a bottom, although I have been a top on more than one occasion. Most of my friends that are gay would appear to be what most would call "thugs" and a good number of them are bottoms. I was just wondering what others thought of these stereotypes. I hope I'm not getting too far off the subject.
Da Kid.
On the whole bottom/top stereotype thing, I often find that many guys that I date assume that I am a top simply because I act "masculine" (or whatever that is supposed to mean) and because I have what some consider to be a large penis (although I think it's just ordinary). I actually am very heppy being a bottom, although I have been a top on more than one occasion. Most of my friends that are gay would appear to be what most would call "thugs" and a good number of them are bottoms. I was just wondering what others thought of these stereotypes. I hope I'm not getting too far off the subject.
Da Kid.
Not sure what you mean by "thugs" C4L, but I'm guessing the hip-hop, rappers from the inner city type maybe?
Though I've always found many of them sexy, the DownLow scene that I associate with them is a put-off.
I knew (and know) a couple of DL'ers from living in the DC area for years in college. I wont make a generalization, but those I know are all from conservative southern backgrounds, rather than northern inner city.
On the subject of sexual stereotypes. Miami must have one of the most ethnically diverse populations in the country - largely hispanic. I wouldn't think that a larger than average endowment would be so unusual - or is it just the black hispanics who suffer that stereotype?
Though I've always found many of them sexy, the DownLow scene that I associate with them is a put-off.
I knew (and know) a couple of DL'ers from living in the DC area for years in college. I wont make a generalization, but those I know are all from conservative southern backgrounds, rather than northern inner city.
On the subject of sexual stereotypes. Miami must have one of the most ethnically diverse populations in the country - largely hispanic. I wouldn't think that a larger than average endowment would be so unusual - or is it just the black hispanics who suffer that stereotype?
Well sport-, my friends would be those hip-hop/rapper type dudes you mention. We here in Miami would rather refer to it as being either a "thug" or being "ghetto" (that's an adjective). Having gone away for college I find that many from various parts of the country assume that most black men from Miami are thugs and must have gold teeth and a car made in the 60s sitting 20+ rims.
As far as the whole endowment thing. I find that even blacks expect other blacks to be well endowed, and that is expected even more so if you happen to be from the Caribbean. I myself am well endowed, I won't tell you the actual measurement, but it is more than 10" (I'm sure that my fellow OFFL members on here can verify this). I just don't like it to be automatically assumed that I HAVE to be the top, because some guy wants to see if he can take it all or something like that. I personally prefer being a bottom.
Da Kid.
As far as the whole endowment thing. I find that even blacks expect other blacks to be well endowed, and that is expected even more so if you happen to be from the Caribbean. I myself am well endowed, I won't tell you the actual measurement, but it is more than 10" (I'm sure that my fellow OFFL members on here can verify this). I just don't like it to be automatically assumed that I HAVE to be the top, because some guy wants to see if he can take it all or something like that. I personally prefer being a bottom.
Da Kid.
[quote]Originally posted by Celtics4Life:
I just don't like it to be automatically assumed that I HAVE to be the top, because some guy wants to see if he can take it all or something like that. I personally prefer being a bottom.
That's like when you meet a "well-hung" guy who is a bottom - everyone says, "What a waste."
Orsino, is your preference really that big of a secret? I can't imagine my close friends not knowing something like that about me. I'm an open book, I guess.
I just don't like it to be automatically assumed that I HAVE to be the top, because some guy wants to see if he can take it all or something like that. I personally prefer being a bottom.
That's like when you meet a "well-hung" guy who is a bottom - everyone says, "What a waste."
Orsino, is your preference really that big of a secret? I can't imagine my close friends not knowing something like that about me. I'm an open book, I guess.
[quote]Originally posted by Celtics4Life:
I myself am well endowed, I won't tell you the actual measurement, but it is more than 10" (I'm sure that my fellow OFFL members on here can verify this). I just don't like it to be automatically assumed that I HAVE to be the top, because some guy wants to see if he can take it all or something like that. I personally prefer being a bottom.
This reminds me of a funny thing one of my buddies always says about a very well-endowed man who prefer to be the bottom: "He ties his long ribbon into a bow to make his ass look purty."
Da Kid:
I did not know you lived in Miami. I was recently there on a trip and hung out at a few of the Black gay clubs. Something VERY interesting happened to me and my friends (relating to someone famous), and if you hang out a bit in Miami, maybe you can shed some light on it for me?
If you want, send me a private message or an email and we can discuss off the board.
I myself am well endowed, I won't tell you the actual measurement, but it is more than 10" (I'm sure that my fellow OFFL members on here can verify this). I just don't like it to be automatically assumed that I HAVE to be the top, because some guy wants to see if he can take it all or something like that. I personally prefer being a bottom.
This reminds me of a funny thing one of my buddies always says about a very well-endowed man who prefer to be the bottom: "He ties his long ribbon into a bow to make his ass look purty."
Da Kid:
I did not know you lived in Miami. I was recently there on a trip and hung out at a few of the Black gay clubs. Something VERY interesting happened to me and my friends (relating to someone famous), and if you hang out a bit in Miami, maybe you can shed some light on it for me?
If you want, send me a private message or an email and we can discuss off the board.
A question for any of the Asian posters, or anyone else who can shed some light.
We are all generalizing occasionally to make a point so I would like to offer the opportunity to explore one aspect of Asian culture a little more.
Does anyone see differences among Asians in their attitude toward homosexuality, either within the Asian American community, the diaspora or the countries of historic origin?
I have had the impression that some estern cultures are more accepting of sexual preference differences than others. Thais for instance seem very tolerant due to their strong Bhudhist tradition of respecting all religions.
China on the other hand seems to be less tolerant and people of chinese decent seem to be less tolerant. Or is this just a peculiarity of Communist influence?
Other societies such as Korea and Vietnam, I have little idea what the experience is.
We are all generalizing occasionally to make a point so I would like to offer the opportunity to explore one aspect of Asian culture a little more.
Does anyone see differences among Asians in their attitude toward homosexuality, either within the Asian American community, the diaspora or the countries of historic origin?
I have had the impression that some estern cultures are more accepting of sexual preference differences than others. Thais for instance seem very tolerant due to their strong Bhudhist tradition of respecting all religions.
China on the other hand seems to be less tolerant and people of chinese decent seem to be less tolerant. Or is this just a peculiarity of Communist influence?
Other societies such as Korea and Vietnam, I have little idea what the experience is.
In the Phillipines, being gay is not really looked down upon, but I believe Japan is really conservative and not as tolerant.
The Phillipines is also mostly a Christian country and not Buddhist, probably more Muslims are on the southern islands.
[ December 17, 2002: Message edited by: gp43 ]
The Phillipines is also mostly a Christian country and not Buddhist, probably more Muslims are on the southern islands.
[ December 17, 2002: Message edited by: gp43 ]
In Japan they pretend that homosexuality doesn't exist, or that it's some kind of Western phenomenon.
[quote]Originally posted by E Z E:
Orsino, is your preference really that big of a secret? I can't imagine my close friends not knowing something like that about me. I'm an open book, I guess.
It's not that big of secret as much as we don't talk about it. A friend just recently told me that there had been some fun speculation; it's not really a big deal, but you know how friends talk sometimes. I've never been with anyone other than him, and he has never been with anyone but me, so the information simply isn't available to anyone but us.
Orsino, is your preference really that big of a secret? I can't imagine my close friends not knowing something like that about me. I'm an open book, I guess.
It's not that big of secret as much as we don't talk about it. A friend just recently told me that there had been some fun speculation; it's not really a big deal, but you know how friends talk sometimes. I've never been with anyone other than him, and he has never been with anyone but me, so the information simply isn't available to anyone but us.
Yella-:
So tell me -Dawg, what happened?? I have been to the Black Gay bars on occasion, which celeb are you talking about because I have seen a number of them in the black gay bars down here. I think it's because I only go to the bars when it's a holiday. BUt what your question??
Da kid.
So tell me -Dawg, what happened?? I have been to the Black Gay bars on occasion, which celeb are you talking about because I have seen a number of them in the black gay bars down here. I think it's because I only go to the bars when it's a holiday. BUt what your question??
Da kid.
I don't think we can generalize about Asian acceptance of homosexuality anymore than we can generalize about American acceptance. It really depends on who and where you are. I have two Thai friends, ones family is extremely homophobic, the others is fairly accepting.
China, the government, is homophobic, but I don't know about individuals.
Chinese-Americans are probably all over the board. My family is very accepting (my parents used to live in SF, most of my aunts and uncles still do). We have family friends that are homophobic though. I remember my mom telling me that one friend cancelled AT&T when she found out that they support domestic partnerships; but I attribute that to her fundamentalism more than ethnicity.
My parents have a very close family friend who have a lesbian daughter. She is over ten years older than me, so I haven't seen her in ages. Her parents are not dealing with it nearly as well as my parents do. Last Christmas my mom tried to get them all to come over to our house for dinner, but her father couldn't deal with it. It makes me really appreciate my parents!
For the most part, Chinese-Americans are silent on the issue as we are about most issues. We are rather quiet and tend not to bring up 'personal' matters with each other.
China, the government, is homophobic, but I don't know about individuals.
Chinese-Americans are probably all over the board. My family is very accepting (my parents used to live in SF, most of my aunts and uncles still do). We have family friends that are homophobic though. I remember my mom telling me that one friend cancelled AT&T when she found out that they support domestic partnerships; but I attribute that to her fundamentalism more than ethnicity.
My parents have a very close family friend who have a lesbian daughter. She is over ten years older than me, so I haven't seen her in ages. Her parents are not dealing with it nearly as well as my parents do. Last Christmas my mom tried to get them all to come over to our house for dinner, but her father couldn't deal with it. It makes me really appreciate my parents!
For the most part, Chinese-Americans are silent on the issue as we are about most issues. We are rather quiet and tend not to bring up 'personal' matters with each other.
[quote]Originally posted by Celtics4Life:
Yella-:
So tell me -Dawg, what happened?? I have been to the Black Gay bars on occasion, which celeb are you talking about because I have seen a number of them in the black gay bars down here. I think it's because I only go to the bars when it's a holiday. BUt what your question??
Da kid.
I don't want to OUT someone on the Net. But check out my email in my profile and send me an email there or send me a private message and we can talk about it that way.
Yella-:
So tell me -Dawg, what happened?? I have been to the Black Gay bars on occasion, which celeb are you talking about because I have seen a number of them in the black gay bars down here. I think it's because I only go to the bars when it's a holiday. BUt what your question??
Da kid.
I don't want to OUT someone on the Net. But check out my email in my profile and send me an email there or send me a private message and we can talk about it that way.
[quote]Originally posted by orsino4:
For the most part, Chinese-Americans are silent on the issue as we are about most issues. We are rather quiet and tend not to bring up 'personal' matters with each other.
That's exactly what my family is like for the most part.
For the most part, Chinese-Americans are silent on the issue as we are about most issues. We are rather quiet and tend not to bring up 'personal' matters with each other.
That's exactly what my family is like for the most part.
Hey Sportinlife, thanks for the thought provoking question - here is a few of my few cents. I do believe there are some specifically cultural differences in the diaspora between East and West. I don't feel confident enough to comment on religion and/or Bhuddism, but a key difference is the influence of Confucianism, and the emphasis on group harmony rather than individual happiness. There is tremendous pressure spoken and unspoken, to be a part of the group and to contribute to its general welfare. If an individual does well or accomplishes something, the pride and glory goes to the group (family, clan, village, etc.) not the person. And vice versa, an individuals fault or "mistake" reflects badly on the group as well as the person. That said, you can imagine the whole "coming out" thing and/or being gay is often in direct opposition to this emphasis on group harmony.
I work as a community organizer with gay Asian folk, and I wish what you suggest was true; that some Asian cultures are more accepting of sexual preference differences. Sadly, I'd say in my experience, there is a significant cultural taboo and stigma that serves to prevent more gay Asians from coming out.
I work as a community organizer with gay Asian folk, and I wish what you suggest was true; that some Asian cultures are more accepting of sexual preference differences. Sadly, I'd say in my experience, there is a significant cultural taboo and stigma that serves to prevent more gay Asians from coming out.
[quote]Originally posted by orsino4:
For the most part, Chinese-Americans are silent on the issue as we are about most issues. We are rather quiet and tend not to bring up 'personal' matters with each other.
I'm in the same boat with orsino4 & sportinlife. My family is quiet on personal matters with each other. They treat me & my partner with love and respect, well, at least to our faces. If they were at all uncomfortable, they have never shown it in front of us. I know in my family, my great grandfather & grandfather always talked about showing Pride and Respect.
For the most part, Chinese-Americans are silent on the issue as we are about most issues. We are rather quiet and tend not to bring up 'personal' matters with each other.
I'm in the same boat with orsino4 & sportinlife. My family is quiet on personal matters with each other. They treat me & my partner with love and respect, well, at least to our faces. If they were at all uncomfortable, they have never shown it in front of us. I know in my family, my great grandfather & grandfather always talked about showing Pride and Respect.
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