Terminizer/Bulldog, I read that whole thread. Great job. I *cough* love *cough* how that one guy pulled out the "A gay guy I know is dating chicks, you could if you wanted it bad enough" line. No dear, now he's just going to be a pretend "heterosexual" homosexual.

I love that that board has strong, active moderators on duty.

T/B55, we can nice. Honest! Here's the 5 page Shockey thread that was actually pretty civil until I told one of the straight "interlopers" to f**k off.

[ December 18, 2003, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

Terminizer: Agree with JIP. Dead Skin came on solely to provoke in a derogatory way and deserved to be slapped down. We have been very civil to non-gays on this board, even if they disagree. This guy needed to be hammered.

Is Dead Skin gone? I was getting a kick out of his grammar.

But I would like him to know that I don't listen to Justin Timberlake or Ricky Martin

"Isn't" it hard to take this guy serious? What the hell is "isent" it anyway?

Hey Dead Skin - Who do you "write" for?
Highlights?

http://www.highlights.com/

I'm pretty sure he's gone, so let's forget him and turn to the latest injustice...no fine for Matt Millen, BUT:

I caught a glimpse of Jim Rome's show last night -- he blasted Millen about his statement and then said that he will probably last another year but doesn't deserve so.

On another note, I would like to comment on Jim Allen's earlier "Breeder" remark. I usually don't take offense to very much but that word, in my view and many other people's view, is the equivalent of the "n" word. I think it is offensive.

I'm not sure why this is an injustice. Note that Kitna's constitutional rights regarding the free exercise of his religion are not in play here. The Constitution prevents only the government from such acts, and neither the NFL or Paul Tagliabue are government actors.

While this \"may not be, in a manner of speaking, the American way,\" it's not a policy directed at religion -- it's a regulation controlling all sideline apparel. Remember Jim McMahon's battles with Pete Rozelle over his headbands?

You can argue with this NFL policy, and their insanely strict uniform rules in general (shirt must be tucked in (so no happy trail shots for us), socks must be just so, etc.). But then again, it's the best run league in professional sports, and it's hard to argue with success.

[ December 19, 2003, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Skiguy ]

The item mentions that he wore it in the post-game news conference, not on the field. I don't know if the NFL can regulate what players wear in the locker rooms, but even so, it's an idiotic policy to fine players for wearing the wrong hat when an executive can make a disgraceful remark and not be sanctioned in any way. The NFL's priorities are way out of whack.

[ December 19, 2003, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

I used that word intentionally, I was baiting him, hoping he would respond to it so that hopefully it would make the guy see that words DO have power and meaning. When a Latino guy called me faggot once, I shot right back with "Beaner". The guy could. not. believe. I would say that to him. He sputtered out "You can't say that to me!". I mustered up all the scorn I could--regulars here know how much that can be--and said "Oh, but it's OK for YOU to call me faggot?". A tiny light went on above his head.

And to equate it with "nigger" is absurd. It's common now to say "That word is as bad as nigger". Well, in this country, no epithet comes close to that in terms of history and meaning. How many people have been lynched in this country for being heterosexual? I'll take a wild stab at that: zero. Let's keep some perspective here, OK? Go to the Minority Homosexuals and Strom Thurmond threads for more on this.

Re: the Kitna thing. I think the NFL is correct on this one. They have licensing agreements and they are fanatical about enforcing them. But they are treading a fine line between that and being intolerant. When they start banning that fall to your knees, look up and point to the sky thing after TD's or players mentioning God in post-game remarks, then I'd be worried. Of course, the Christian right is going to use this incident as "evidence" that secular America wants to ban Christians, but whatever.

[ December 19, 2003, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

Joe, I'll agree, the league's priorities are f**ked, but there's nothing wrong, per se, with their fining Kitna. The post-game news conference is a part of the NFL's product (I believe that League rules, TV contracts, and the standard NFL/NFLPA player's service contract require the coach and QB to appear at post-game news conferences). Their product, their rules.

That said, Millen's comments, in my view, do far more damage to the League than Kitna's god-squadding (most of the League's players fall into one of two categories, criminals or god-squadders (sometimes both), and it's not a big secret).

Jim Allen -- your response is disgusting and your excuses are pathetic. Using derogatory terms to "bait" someone -- get a life!

Here is why the term "breeder" is offensive. To begin with - it implies that people who have children are animals. Secondly, it is a "code" word that narrow minded homosexuals use in order to draw a divide. Lastly, do you have a clue that many people on this Board have children from all different kinds of relationships. Are gay and lesbian couples who have children "breeders" even though one of their children may have the genes of only one partner -- "half breeds" no doubt in your view.

Anyway, save your b.s. excuses for somebody who may be interested in buying some swamp land in South Florida -- or something like that.

The sad part is that you don't even get that what you say is wrong.

mdphl,

you're being way too harsh. words are just that. words. mere sounds formed by our mouths. they are nothing without the meaning that we give to those sounds escaping from our lips. and to different people, the same word, the same sounds very often have very different meanings.

for example. "agassi" may mean a world class tennis player to many people here in the states. But in korea, "agassi" means "young lady" (ok. that example is a bit of a stretch. but you see where I'm going.)

Likewise, the term "breeder" may have all these horrible connotations and meanings to you. But to a lot of us, me for example.... the word "breeder" is not such a deadly insult and we don't automatically associate all these various meanings.

we reserve the right to have definitions of words that are in common usage separate from your own.

[ December 19, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: ung ]

Mdphl, I don't know what your freakin' problem is, but you're way off base. Like, not even in the stadium parking lot.

I know exactly what "breeder" connotates. I don't need a lecture from you on the meanings of it. I don't give a shit if you don't believe me about "baiting someone". That's why I used that word, it was deliberately choosen for its meaning and associations. Your opinion on that aspect of it is irrelevant. Irrelevant.

No, what's sad is that YOU think that breeder--an epithet, by the way, that I've had to explain to heterosexuals the meaning of--is equivalent to nigger, the most poisonous single word in American discourse. WHAT-EVER. Throw that out to Fantomas, YellaDawg or the BMan and then come back here and try and defend that position.

[ December 19, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

Thanks for the acknowledgement that the term "breeder" has connotat[ions]" -- you made my point. Ung disagrees with us and I respect his measured response.

Why do you feel that you have to "bait" people?

And if you choose to - could you explain what the rest of your post meant?

How does my acknowleding the obvious--that breeder has differing connotations--prove your point? That's not a great intellectual stretch to write that; it's so obvious that it almost doesn't require comment. I felt I had to "bait" that guy because it was the only way I could see to make a point. In retrospect, I should have just asked the question directly, but I felt that he would have just screamed "Hypocrite!!!!!!!!". We'll never know as he's been banned.

As for the last paragraph, have you read the two threads I've linked to above? They have written at length and persuasively, about taking a word like breeder and trying to make it equivalent to nigger. The attempt to do so is offensive in and of itself.

You might want to avoid the Minority Homosexuals thread, I'm in a bit of a mess there at the moment!

I can understand if the league mandates one brand over another (such as Nike over Reebok). But in this case it's not really an NFL accessory or a team accessory. It seems to be a generic cap that has a cross on it. To me it's just another article of clothing. (And though I certainly would get annoyed if he began talking about how Jesus helped him throw the winning TD pass or something, I don't have a problem with a cap that has a cross on it.)

As for the "breeder" thing, I don't really take it as a slur on the same order as the other slurs, though if I were straight maybe I'd feel differently. I can imagine that most straights wouldn't know what it meant unless someone told them. I don't think it's that widespread yet.

a faggot is a bundle of sticks for firewood bundled together....did this term come into use because homosexuals were burned at the stake long ago......would make for some interesting research.

Just trying to lighten the mood on this thread. Please remember what time of year it is..........

A great idea -- and a thought provoker indeed. That is, the fag/bundle of sticks (some people prefer twigs ) question...

wink

Where's William Safire when you need him?

I agree with ung, words are words and who cares. Someone can call me a fag and it just means they are stupid. Someone can call a black person a nigger and it just means they are stupid. It's up to the person to take offense. I can't be bothered, way too busy doing more interesting things. Like anything.

I was just talking to my buddy at work about this who happens to be black. He totally agreed.

And now I have something specific to quote when I tell people why this is offensive when directed at straights. And I have a reason to quote when I tell people that I'm offended when I hear my straight friends get called that.

Did anyone see ESPN Game Day's coverage of the Matt Millen incident?

First of all, I give kudos to Chris Berman and Co. for taking on the issue as specifically as they did. Michael Irvin took Millen to task for the comments, particularly as a representative of the Detroit Lions. I think someone (Tom Jackson) reported that the Ford family already let Millen know they were displeased.

From there, I have to issue a demerit to Tom Jackson for trying to brush it under the rug by focusing almost completely on Millen's now 9-38 record as the team's president. Steve Young pointed out that Millen goes about his life like the linebacker he used to be, and said the kind of judgement Millen didn't show bodes ill for former players who want to get into management but let their emotions get in the way of their better judgement. Young gets a sideways thumb, while Irvin gets a thumbs-up (who would have thought I'd say THAT!)

Originally posted by TonkaManOR

Personally, the thought of anyone being burned at the stake doesn't "lighten the mood" for me at all. However, there is some evidence to support what you say about "faggot". There are several theories about the word's origins; I have taken this excerpt, with slight paraphrasing, from the joint entry for "fag" and "faggot" from Hugh Rawson's book Wicked Words :

faggot may allude to the faggots (bundles of sticks) that fueled the fires in which sodomists and other heretics were once burned....'fag' may derive from the slang word for cigarette, the point being that smoking cigarettes, as opposed to cigars, once was considered effeminate...or possibly from the character Fagin, the corrupter of boys in Dickens' "Oliver Twist"...today the principal difference between "fag" and "faggot" from a sexual standpoint is that the former is regarded as the more pejorative.

That last phrase surprised me, I always thought of "fag" and "faggot" as being equally derogatory.

Getting back to the Millen-Morton incident, Howie Long, Deion Sanders and Phil Simms were discussing this on Sunday morning before the first games. I tuned in late, so I didn't catch all of what they said. Long certainly didn't condone Millen's behaviour, but he didn't think he should be fired for it, and that the incident should be forgotten. Of the three, Sanders seemed to be the least sympathetic towards gay/lesbians.

Found him!!! Scroll down to Hall of Shame :cool:

For the record, I have found some of his columns on word origins fascinating, though I avoid reading his political columns entirely.

Looks like a 9-38 overall mark with a 24 game road losing streak and slurring gays isn't quite enough to get you fired as GM of the Detroit Lions. This from ESPN.com:

Is it any wonder this franchise is now being mentioned in the same breath as the Los Angeles Clippers, Arizona Cardinals and Milwaukee Brewers.

People of Detroit Breathe a Collective Sigh of Relief!

A good friend of mine, an NFL writer, wrote a great column on the NFL's double-standard with Millen and all the fines it has levied. Check it out.

Huh? I could understand if he'd said other factors outweighed this issue, but if Billy Boy thinks Millen's apologette was enough to settle the matter, he need ejucatin'!

Here's the deal. We're all NFL fans of different teams. As long as Millen is in charge of Detroit it's pretty much a guaranteed win when our team is playing the Lions. This guy is so out of his league that it's not even funny. The reason why the Ford family kept him is because they are too cheap to eat the final year of his contract. He was/is a white trash linebacker (aka Raider) and he is a white trash peice of sh*t General Manager. There are no Lions fans here, lets rejoice that they didn't let him go. It's a guaranteed win.

Thank goodness we are all not Detroit fans.

Ain't that the truth. I was living up there during the Wayne Fontes/Bobby Ross years, when they went 9-7 and then one-and-out in the playoffs every year. Believe me, the friends I still have up there are longing for those days, and they know perfectly well they're not going to see .500 again while Millen is there.

Or, as AC/DC once said, "Listen to the money talk."

Millen is a neanderthal, and has no business running an NFL franchise. That said, he's got one of the most underrated head coaches in football on the sidelines, and one of the most promising young QBs in the game. So there is some basis for optimism in Detroit.