OK. Long time poster. First time topic starter. On the heels of the debate on the Oscars thread and Polanski's controversial nomination...how about we talk about (big) age differences between partners? Gay and Straight. It's a by now well documented sight to see older men with younger women (e.g.Natasha Kinski/Quincy Jones, Michael Douglas/Catherine Zeta Jones, John Derek/Bo Derek, etc. etc.) And last year's Oscar's treat was no doubt the sightings of Ian McKellan and his "boy toy" holding hands in the audience.
But what of the trend in gay relationships? Personally I find it a little creepy when I see a pronounced age difference of say over 15 years? Prudish I know. But I'm wondering what others think?

My ex and I were 18 years apart.

He was the older. My current partner and I are 7 years apart. Anything withing 5-8 years is okay. You have more in common background wise.

We grew up at basically the same time with the same cultural reference points.

I did know this kid whose partner was like 30 years older. That is a bit extreme for me. He is early 20s and his partner is early 50s.

That's like dating your dad.

Not prudish.

I restrict callbacks (from personals [print and electronic], invitations to accept what I'm drinking, tips from my multilingual, international network, etc. eek! ) to people who are within 10 years on either side of my age. That gives me 20 years.

For any number of reasons, 20 years are enough to choose from. There are so many ways to mis-match in 20 years alone.....I don't think I need to say anymore.

[ February 11, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

I think that this age question is more of a question in the Asian communities because I have seen and heard about a lot of May-December couples.

MOST, though, are not "real" (read: healthy, bonafide) relationships. I have even heard stories about how the young Asian guys talk to their friends (in Vietnamese, Thai, and Laotian) in derogatory terms right in front of their partners. Unfortunately, some of these guys get caught because they don't realize that they can be understood (without knowledge of the language).

Anyway, I have only known of a few May-December couplings that seemed like true friendships.

What is a "lady boy"?

My grandparents were 10 years apart, and aside from the long widowhood that left my grandmother after Grandpa's death, it seemed to work well. I believe her brother was also about 10 years older than his (male) partner, and they were even happier than my grandparents.

I think in general the age thing works if, as theodore'sdaddy said, the two people "grew up at basically the same time with the same cultural reference points." That would eliminate most 15 - 20 year differences.

However, there have been successful male-male relationships with that much age difference - doesn't James Hormel have a much younger partner? Of course, Hormel is richer than Midas.

As an aside, Sandra Bullock is complaining these days about the double standard in Hollywood - as she is dating a 22 year old and is being criticized (she's in her late 30s) - if Cher can do it - then go Sandra!

I don't understand what the big deal is. If you like and are turned on by someone of a different generation, and if he or she feels the same, then go for it. I have never had a good experience with a much younger guy. All of my younger partners (me in my thirties and them in their late teens and early twenties)have been too unsure of themselves and didn't really seem to know what they were doing. But that's me.

Generally, I would say that if two people are attrcated to each other, that is all that matters, but I can see where an age difference of say 20 years or more could cause some generational differences.

That gets O L D (no pun intended!) really fast.

My late partner and I had a completely love-filled and devoted relationship for fourteen years. I will always cherish his memory. He was twenty-six years years my senior, and it was never an issue for us. A relationship is what the two people in it make it.

speaking as someone who is asian and someone who has dated older men .... I'm not sure what to say about Bluebird's remarks.

ok............. (deep breath) ... in the last two years, the age range of those I have dated have ranged from 18 (and a half) to 48. one thing that let's this happen is that i refuse to ask my potential dates their age. I judge then on their looks, their intelligence and personality. when they were born has no bearing on me.

my longest relationship to date was with a beautiful man I met at the gym (a marathoner) who was 25 yrs older then me.

it is true that you see a greater percentage of the may-dec in the asian community. But I think it's because
1. many asians (more than other groups) do not shun "trolls" or "grandpas" when looking for mates.
2. we come from a culture that does not see older people as scraps to be thrown away but rather as peole to be admired.
3. the widely held concept in the gay community that asians are more receptive to older gays makes us become specifically targeted by older gays. therefore making may-dec relatioships more likely statistically.

my current boyfriend is 13 yrs older than me. though he is accomplished and mature, his age does not prevent him from acting more boyish than me.

don't look at the age guys. in the gay world, it's so difficult to find someone with whom we feel comfortable. if you find that someone, don't reject him just cuz he's a few years older.

Believe it or not, ung, I have taken what you said to heart and promise to try to keep an open mind.

Just curious: I wonder if young Japanese/Asian men in Brazil feel the same way, given the history of Asian slavery there? Can you assist me with this?

- - - - -

THANK YOU, UNG, for your having given us a peek at your history. And please remember, just as you are a little nervous about answering, sometimes (I'm not really talking about me here, although on occasion... wink ) we are nervous about asking.

Hey, I've thought about doing a few yoga poses before logging on to P & R! wink

[ February 12, 2003, 04:20 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

From my personal experience I am always wary of 'perceived' May-December relationships. I am 5 months older than my partner; but I look young for my age, and he looks older than his age. The result is what appears to many as an older White guy dating a younger Asian guy when I'm actually older than he is! So the fact that Asian people, especially we spoiled Asian-Americans, often look younger than their age may explain some of the perceived age differences.

If I weren't in a relationship I'd date an older guy without any hangups on my part. My temperaiment tends to be older than those in my age group.

I think any age difference up to 10 yrs either way seems ok. I feel that way about straights too. It seems a little uneven for one partner to be a 20 yr old mailboy and his partner to be a 45 yr old exec. BUT its your life ! - Just don't cry when that mailboy turns 30 & wants a 20 yr old of his own. I just think that if you want a LASTING relationship your best bets are a closer age range. *FYI -my partner is my same age (well, a few months apart but that was just luck. )

[ February 12, 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: copman ]

Bluebird, my brother, where do you come up with these things? There was NEVER Asian slavery in Brazil. NEVER. Slavery (which involved Africans and people of mixed African-Portuguese-Indian descent) in Brazil was abolished by the Lei Aurea in 1888. The São Paulo and Paraná coffee planters, who were enraged and would later support the establishment of a republic and the overthrow of the Brazilian monarchy, as a result promoted immigrant workers, especially Japanese and Italians, to take over this work. Japanese immigration began in earnest in 1908, which is well after the period of slavery ended (although some have argued that in parts of the Amazon basin, as throughout Brazil's northeast, slavery--and related forms of forced, unpaid labor--in various forms persists to this day).

More on the Japanese in Brazil

I personally don't think transgenerational relationships are a problem, so long as the younger person is cognizant of what s/he is doing and is of age (17 or older), and the relationship is exploitative.

Some older men relate well with younger men, some have a fetish for youth, etc., and the reverse is true too. When I was 22 one of my first boyfriends was 48, and another was 35. I also dated men my age. I realized a few years ago that at the base of most of my attractions was a kind of "daddy"-type attraction--that is, the man was usually older, masculine-appearing, etc., and now that I'm in my 30s and have worked through some of these issues, I find that I also am attracted to men who are younger than me, which usually wasn't the case before.

My partner is only 3 years older than me, and gets better looking with each new year!

Like a few of the previous posters, I used to have a rule--no more than five years plus or minus my own age. Especially when you're younger, you're at a very different place in your life (college, first job, etc.) than older counterparts. So I swore I'd never date anyone much more than five years different from me.

Then I turned 33 and fell in love with someone who'd been my friend for a few years already. And let's just say he's a little outside my "acceptable" range. But those rules just seem so stupid now when I consider how lucky I am! Relationships work (and don't work) for lots of reasons, and age is probably one of the most minor ones.

My general rule is that they have to remember Nixon. (The president, not the Oliver Stone film.) Of course, it can be waived in special circumstances.

I have to agree with Fanthomas on this one.

Bluebird, when I post here (and specifically, when I replied to your earlier post) I am never nervous. I was actually pissed that someone could say some gross generality like the following phrase

You give no proof or rationale of how "most are not real relationships" How do you know that?

and then to make the situation even more horrifying, you talk about how you "heard stories" of our behavior. You didn't even witness these behaviors in person. at least if you had seen one incident of such behavior, I could cut you some more slack. But come on!

It would be like if I had never met a black person and then said "black couples never love each other, I heard stories about how they are."

Again this is not to flame you, per se. But Bluebird, you have become a quite frequent poster on this website and while some things you say have merit, there are many things you have posted that have no basis whatsoever. Please try to exercise some more editorial control before posting for the whole world to see.

But BillW - do they have to remember him fondly?

I'd like to weigh in on this with what I'll call a transitional perspective. By transitional, I mean that at age 50 I find myself between two worlds; feeling young mentally - and sometimes emotionally as a result of the more closeted times in which I was raised - but starting to feel the effect of years physically, as well as being perceived by others in age groups in which I still feel myself, specifically, those post-graduate/mid-career halcyon years of 28-40, as older, though I don't yet feel that way.

This was brought home vividly to me in the election last Fall, when I was describing myself in a speech as part of a group of "Young Turks" in the GOP who were trying to moderate it. Someone in the audience cut me off with a good natured - I hope! - jibe that "you're not young anymore." The line got laughs, including some from me, but it hurt and, like the first time someone calls you "Sir" in a store, gave me pause.

What also hurts is sometimes finding myself on the receiving end of overtures from younger men who want to be "kept." To me, there is nothing more repulsive and disgraceful than anyone who would prostitute himself for material ease, especially at the emotional expense of another. The first time it happened, with a guy 20 years my junior, and I came to realize that I was only being appreciated - if at all - for my property and position, it was a cruel revelation that took quite a long time to resolve. It's always disappointing to find that someone you came to love and respect because he claimed to feel those things for you didn't feel those things for you at all, and worse, lied to you to keep the charade going.

But I learned from that experience and have learned to steer clear of such opportunists. At the same time, I've met many younger guys you ARE genuine and with whom there's been mutual respect, attraction and affection. Conversely, I'd like to meet men closer to my age who've kept themselves in shape mentally, physically and emotionally, but find that there just aren't many such men out there. So my advice to my peers is not to rely on age alone as a marker, but to keep it in mind when evaluating where a relationship might go. And to my younger gay brethren I'd suggest two things: first, decide for yourself if you're comfortable becoming involved with an older man. If you are, make sure it's for the right reasons for the two of you, and not just for your own selfish ones. If you're not, which is equally valid, make that clear from the get-go, so you don't unnecessarily cause anyone grief along your own way to finding happiness.

Whew! I'm glad I posted this before Valentine's Day! :cool:

17 AIN'T of age ! 18 IS. wink

"the first time someone calls you "Sir" in a store"

I changed pharmacies because one of the clerks in the one I used to use always called me Mr. ****

How the hell can you hit on someone when they call you Mr.? frown

Nothing wrong with "Sir" Lots of military and southerners use "Sir " often. I even use it when dealing with the public on my job. I have been known to use it in the bedroom " Yes Sir...Oh YES, Sir"

Wait - it gets better. One time at the infamous Marina Safeway I actually found myself saying "Thanks, son!" to the grocery boy! Where that came from, I don't know; I just blurted it out. Worst of all; that happened over ten years ago!

No, nothing wrong at all with calling people "sir, ma'am," etc., but it's just a bit of a shocker the first time you hear it applied to YOU! eek!

Guessing he meant age of consent, which varies somewhat from state to state and country to country ... but agreeing that anyone younger than 18 is a minor in U.S. terms and "out of bounds" for anything beyond friendship. Better safe than sorry.

Picking up bag boys at the Marina Safeway! Isn't that one which was featured in Tales of the City?

Of course the one on Church and Market is the queerest Safeway in the country now.

The Marina Safeway - not to be confused with its cross-country counterpart, the Singles' Safeway on Wisconsin Ave. in Georgetown - was indeed featured in TOTC - and is as gay a place for assignations as it is a straight one!

As far as the Church & Market Safeway, it is quite gay and many years ago I had the experience of meeting and being driven home by Randy Shilts from there. Not feeling any sparks for him though, I didn't "ask him up" and he drove off in a huff after dropping me off. Sorry Randy!

ung:

That brings up an interesting point. Asians do seem mor mature at a younger age, or their behvior does not seem to vary as much between adults of different ages.

We generally call that "inscrutability" because facial features are more dfficult for us to read.

Maybe that lack of difference in and of itself explains the may-Dec attractions.

My partner and I are over 45 yet who is less mature at any given time depends on the mood, timing,circumstance. etc.

i dated someone 12 yrs. younger than me for a period of about 6 months. other than seemingly every 80's pop culture reference going over his head, i never really saw it as an issue.

he was, admittedly, more mature than i am. also, he WAS asian, which squares with the aformentioned perception that asians are mature earlier.

Are we talking about Asian Americans or those who immigrated from Asia?

And are we talking including Filipinos in this discussion?

I need guidelines here boys.

My last roommate, and f**k buddy, was from Singapore. He was a roommate with benefits. He was fairly serious about work. He had been in this country for about 3 years or so. He's 30 but he acted younger than that in other matters.

My current boyfriend is half Filipino and half Irish. His mother, who is Filipino, came to this country sometime after WW2. He was born in this country. He's also 7 years older than me. He can be very serious but I think that's age rather than ethnicity. But then again, he can be very playful.

I think it's mostly age that figures into the maturity thing the most. But then again, a lot of Asian-American guys that I've met are first generation Americans whose parents have had to fight to support their families and that ethic is hammered into the guys' heads.

Would you present a few examples? :confused:

[ February 15, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

Right, well let's call it "forced, unpaid labor" (I think this splitting hairs, as all manifestions of slavery are unjust ECONOMIC instutitions). The 1888 year pretty much refers to Brazil's national economics of African slavery.

Brazil hosts the largest population of Japanese people outside Japan.

- - - - -

The Japanese (and Italian, for that matter) workers CLEARLY wanted to work the land and get out of Brazil. They did not, under ANY circumstances want to stay there.

The was a large wave of German immigration, starting in 1924; but I haven't yet been able to find anything on what kind of work they were set up to do on their arrival.

I cannot say that the Japanese were chained or otherwise physically abused regarding their desire to leave Brazil, nor can I speak to federal efforts to prevent emigration back to Japan - nevertheless, they were perpetually cheated out of their remunerations, and had the rules changed on them repeatedly by plantation owners until they had NO CHOICE, for lack of financial resources, but to stay in an arrangement that was only supposed to last 5 years, practically guaranteeing their permanence in Brazil.

Some empire.

http://www.fukuokalatina.com/uk/reader/brazil.html

"Brazil is, of course, the counry which received more Japanese immigrants than other Latin American countries. Between 1,300,000 and 1,500,000 people of Japanese origin live in the Portuguese-speaking country in the Western Hemisphere, especially in the São Paulo State."

and...

"Japanese immigrants were characterized by their eager to be independent farmers. This tendency, nevertheless, was out of Brazil's expectation to make use of more agricultural workforce. For Brazilian farm owners it was inconvenient to go on looking for new immigrants due to the independence of the precedent ones even they worked well. As a result, the São Paulo State stopped to pay the trip fare for Japanese immigrants and it's the Japanese government which succeeded this service. The farmers' influx went on from the archipelago since the Far East(the amount of immigrants to Brazil were between 5,000 and more than 20,000 by year between 1926 and 1934).

The Brazilian policy began to be rigid in the middle of the 1930s. The nationalist movements in Europe arrived at Brazil which started to limit the number of immigrants. Only 2,849 Japanese immigrants per year were admitted. After the burstout of the Pacific War, in Dec 1941, Brazil discarded the diplomatic relations with Japan in Jan 1942. It was forbidden to publish newspapers in Japanese, Japanese schools were closed, and immigrants had nothing but to listen to the Japanese radio to know latest news, believing the their home country would win."

- - - - -

Japanese immigrants were even REQUIRED to come to Brazil as a family (no single workers [leaving family behind] allowed):

http://www.ucsc.edu/currents/01-02/03-04/reading.html

Economics, agriculture, and immigration laws created the conditions for a wave of Japanese immigration to Brazil in the early 20th century. Brazil needed contract labor for its booming coffee plantations. Japanese companies needed new countries in which to place workers after exclusion acts ended legal immigration from Asia to the United States. Japanese immigrants to
Circle K Cyclesis written by Karen Tei Yamashita, an associate professor of literature and creative writing at UCSC.

Brazil were required to immigrate in family groups; the presence of Japanese women and the need for rural labor in Brazil encouraged the creation of large families. Today, Brazil has the largest community of Japanese and their descendants outside Japan.

- - - - -

My question was, and still is, does Brazil's Asian history affect the way Asian LGBTs meet and mate in modern society?

[ February 17, 2003, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: bluebird48234 ]

the answer is "no". How does anything happening to japanese immigrants in Brasil affect the "meeting and mating" of asians in the USA?

If you'd like to see the German regions of Brazil, go especially to Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul in the South. The Swiss first, and later Germans, began arriving at the end of the Imperial period.

In Santa Catarina, there are whole towns with predominantly Bavarian architecture, some with German names (like Blumenau), and others where nearly all the residents are of German descent, like Pomerode. Gustavo Kuerten (Guga) is from Santa Catarina. The majority of the German immigrants to SC became farmers or businesspeople.

In Rio Grande do Sul (the southernmost state in Brazil, famous for its cowboys, or gaúchos), you can find German populations along the coast and in the interior. Novo Hamburgo, for example, is town in RS. Giselle Bündchen, the Brazilian supermodel, is from RS. Its industries and un-Brazilianness are quite famous throughout the country. BTW, Rio Grande do Sul is also one of the most liberal states in Brazil and is controlled by the socialists. Its capital, Porto Alegre, is where the World Social Forum takes place each year.

There are also sizable German populations in Paraná, São Paulo, Rio state, Espírito Santo, Minas Gerais, etc. But Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul are the main German regions of Brazil.

I reiterate: there were never Japanese, or for that matter Italian, German, you name it, slaves in Brazil.

[ February 17, 2003, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

The most famous, and one of the most gorgeous, German Brazilians (and Catarinenses), from Florianópolis (a city that is so beautiful it has to be seen to be believed)!


GUSTAVO KUERTEN!

How German Is it?

Blumenau, SC, Brazil's Oktoberfest!

Um, back to the thread, there are more than a few older, German Brazilian bears and Daddy bears online looking for younger hotties, so....

[ February 17, 2003, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

I had recanted this properly in my last post.

Can we get back to the topic please??? I have a friend who's 35 and has a mutual crush w/a 22 YO gusy - what say the board?

The 22 YO is very mature for his age might I add.

Okay, I am 25 and my boyfriend is 42 - 17 years. I act A LOT older than my age in conversations and mind set. Partying - different story. (No drugs, thank you.)

I think the reason we clicked is that he has gone through the EXACT same crap I am going through right now and we can relate.

I also have known him for a very long time, but I didn't know what he did for a living, how much he made - I didn't care. I've always like him.

I am attracted to guys a bit older than me. Here in Minneapolis, I really do not know many guys my age that are out and lift weights and take care of themselves. That's just me.

Al

Have to put my 2 cents in here - I am mid 40's - have never dated anyone older than me and have no interest. Had a relationship for many years with someone 10 years younger; still one of my best friends. I think it boils down to the issue of attraction - and not just physical. A lot of guys are looking for maturity and stability and others are looking for more energy and vitality. If they find each other - great!

22 and 35--no way.

I don't care how mature the 22 year old is. Speaking as a 35 year old, I couldn't do it. I've dated enough boys, I want a man.

Theo - I'm sure you are making that statement reflecting your own feelings understanding that others may feel differently. That's why it is very true that there are different strokes for different folks (pardon the play on words)

Okay, it may sound cliche', but for me it really boils down to mutual attraction.

I'm 28 now, however, when I was 19 years old and in college, my first serious relationship was with a guy who was 30 years old. There was a mutual physical attraction as well as a sharing of mutual interests.

When I was 25, I dated this guy who was 42 years old. When we met, he told me he was 32 (he looked much, much younger than 42) because he thought I wouldn't be interested if I knew his real age. We dated for over a year and still remain friends.

No, I think that everyone should follow my beliefs.



Sorry couldn't resist.

I've dated younger and older. I've always had problems with younger. The last younger guy that I dated was about 16 years younger. I couldnt' get over the fact that he was my niece's age. He was a severe flake even though he was also mature for his age. Most of the younger guys I've dated were like that.

I honestly think that people aren't maturing as early as they used to. I know 25 and 26 year olds who are no more than children. I can't imagine having any real type of relationship with anyone younger than mid 30s.

Gosh, I'm 63 and my bf is 28, and we are devoted to each other, never noticing the age difference, unless someone brings it up. My grandaughter, who is 3, was very funny trying to figure out to herself who was the daddy and who was the mommy. I told her I was the daddy and he was the baby, which she processed easily.

I've always liked the company of younger guys - at least the ones who liked older guys. Sometimes being the initiator of virgins is more a duty than a pleasure, but most guys are quick studies! lol!

GIVE ME A BREAK! eek!

What do you mean by that? That you don't believe me, or that I am delusive, or what?