OK call this my fustration, or me just venting, but right now I think I have a reason for it. From the straight world to the gay world we are severely f**king up. Now us gay jocks.......who like to consider us as straight acting fail to realise the importance of the drag queen community and the "less" straight acting community. Lets face it boys they are as part of us as who most of you guys potray to be. Then there is some of us that need a direct kick in the ass. That would be any one who is in favor of queer eye for the straight guy. NBC is making a mint off this VERY stereotypical gay males and alot of you guys are eating it up because hey its gays on tv. At the same time I can almost bet that over half of the members of this site was not out spokenly in favor of gay marriages. Myself, I have a bf........and still I could honestly not care about gay marriages but I would be the first to line up to march for it. We some times forget that in all the differences we may have.......we are still looked down apon. See during the black movement it was easy for them to rally around. They were segretated against because of the color of their skin....that they cannot hide. While we can hide all we want behind the walls we build apon ourselves the guilt and shame should be in us all. I just find it very hard to believe to hear about all the gay pride events going on and the numbers that attend them, and yet we can't get any thing done as far as equal rights. Granted the gay movement might be moving in a direction in what you may not care for...but you know what any victory in any movement can further along more movements that you might be in favor of.


Sincerely,

Greg Congdon
or as outsports has its spelled..........Greg Condon.

Uh oh...oh, Outsports? You need to make a correction somewhere... wink Okay, let's get to this:

I couldn't agree more. But then you continue:

So drag queens (who tend to be pretty effeminate, I think) are okay but non-drag queens who are "stereotypical" aren't? You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

"Queer Eye" is successful because it gets more than just the gay audience. A lot of straight people love the show as well. At first I wouldn't have thought I'd watch a show like it, but I love it. It's funny, there is a great sense of closeness and friendship among the Fab Five, and above all a tremendous amount of sincere caring about the straight guys being transformed, and a tremendous amount of sincere gratitude, understanding and even love given back from the straight guys to the Fab Five.

And if we all watched any old show just because of it having gays on TV, I'd have watched "It's All Relative" every week. I watched it once. Didn't like it. Never watched it again. ABC just canceled it.

Hey Greg:
My bad in adding your name to the Out Athletes database. You should have let me know.

Great to see young people getting serious about the issues. I was starting to think most were about as deep as a valley girl.

In this day and age there are a lot of inequities that should be being addressed with respect to gays. I don't think the iron will ever get any hotter and it needs to be struck.

We can quibble about the details but one fundamental can be agreed upon: we need equality.

Whatever!! Talk to the hand 'cuz the face ain't listenin'. Grodey to the max!

I respect Greg, but I absolutely disgree with him. I don't see why I am required to side with those who have made choices in their self-expression which I don't see as valuable or positive. If I were black, I wouldn't have to support those who dress as Mammy or Uncle Tom--why do I have to side with drag queens? The first black woman to win an Oscar won for a role which was hugely stereotypical and which suggested slavery had positive aspects. Was this a step forward for the black community, just because she was visible? I don't think so.

It seems like most gays on this list respond positively to Greg. Am I going to be shut out of the discussion because I disagree? Am I going to be dismissed and marginalized? Hey, I can get that from the straight white male patriarchy.

For myself, I do not see Queer Eye as part of the problem. It may seem stereotypical but face it, many gay men seem to have a talent for making things, places and people beautiful. Instead of rejecting shows like Queeer Eye, how about if all of the other types of gay men, jocks, straight acting, nerds, etc., come out and take their place in the spot light. Granted, it is easier said than done but to me that would be what I'd consider moving in the right direction.

Trying to force stereotypical gay people back into the closet, just because they don't represent you seems kind of backwards. The straight world needs to see that we truly are diverse and that they cannot group us into one type of gay person. The only way that can happen is if they see all of the people that represent our diverse community stand up (or come out) and be counted.

I don't think anyone here will dismiss or marginalize anyone's opinion. We fully respect your opinion. Not everyone agrees with your opinions; that is neither positive or negative. At the same time, you have given lots of examples of what you wouldn't do, or how things shouldn't be in the greater gay community...so, my question is, how would you correct the situation so as to still progress the equality of GLBTQI (or my simplification, queer) people everywhere and not marginalize any single person?

IMHO, I think the first African American to win an award for portraying a stereotype was very progressive. Especially now, as it puts historical events into stark contrast to the "present". It serves as a visual reminder of how things have progressed, and how much more that needs to be done.

I don't watch the Fab Five. It's not because I think that it portrays gays negatively, but rather I just don't like the show. Plain and simple. Granted, I probably would rather have less sterotypical characters, but it is TV and the driving force is how many people will watch the show. It is always more "entertaining" to watch a show that the characters are obviously a certain type of person. This includes all the shows on TV. They all portray a stereotype, whether it be the straight male, the gorgeous spy, the tough cop, the adorable mom, the caring doctor, the gay neighbor, etc. By the simple fact that we are becoming more visible and shown in a positive light in mainstream media shows that we are approaching the turning point of our gayness becoming less of an issue. And isn't that what we are all really striving for?

Sincerely your friendly microbiogist, sports enthusiast, sci-fi geeky fag.

Gay, to me, means being masculine and loving masculinity. Effeminate men, drag queens, transsexuals, transgenders--while wonderful and worthwhile people in their own right--are not, IMHO, in the same category. I wish them all the happiness in the world, but I don't want to associate with them, or have my cause associated with them.

I want to work on behalf of men who want to be men, and who happen to be attracted to other men. I want to help men who want to be better friends, better fathers, better life-partners. I think that if male-identified gay men had been the first visible group or gay men, then the fight for rights for all of us would have been a lot easier.

Now, in order to take a step forward, we have to fight against this "stonewall" of stereotypes. I'm tired of shouting down the stereotypes who really have nothing in common with me or what I want out of life.

So, explain to me how we are supposed to be accepted by society when we don't even accept other gay people ourselves?

while I do not enjoy drag, druggies, or circuit boys, I acknowledge that doing their activites is their right.

Until gay culture can stop cutting itself down, we will never be accepted by mainstream society.

and this is as close to a politics/religion thing as you will ever hear me say. I'm impressed: Your opinion so inflamed me you actually got me to post.

Trevor

Gay to me means loving men. Drag queens are men too. I abhor being told what counts as masculine and what does not.

But that would have required all these so-called masculine gay men to step proudly out of the closet and speak up -- which they didn't do. I'm too young to have all the details about the early years of the gay rights movement, but my understanding is the drag queens were the ones with the balls to stand up and demand respect. Sounds pretty masculine to me.

:mad:

I need a break...

Many of us have spoken in favor of it (and against attempts to amend the Constitution to stop it), but your point is well taken.

In my case, that's in spite of misgivings about priorities. If same-sex marriage were legal today nationwide, same-sex couples could marry ... and return from their honeymoons to find that they'd been fired from their jobs, evicted from their apartments, and denied mortgages just for being gay ... and it would be perfectly legal in the majority of states (and all but one county of my state). From honeymoon to homeless shelter. Whoopee. And that's not even getting into health care, child custody, adoption and the rest.

So I'd rather see the basic equal rights established for all of us, coupled or single ... but the anti-gay forces have made marriage the issue, at the national and state levels, so there we are. If we can at least persuade our elected officials to stop the constitutional amendments, then we can get back to the (to me) more basic equality issues (which have wider public support despite the vocal opposition). So yeah, I'll march (and write, and donate).

Anyway, Greg, congratulations on finding a bf, and welcome back to the boards. :cool:

I agree with skjpm.

Although I support their rights as fully as anyone else's, it makes no more sense to lump drag queens into the homosexual category than it does to add accountants or vegans into it. Limit it to what it is..... same sex attraction.

People just aren't getting it. Don't you realize why most males who are attracted to males aren't out about it? It's because they realize from an early age that they have VERY little in common with the people that the media loves to portray as "gay." Most seem to be repulsed by the thought that people who know them will assume they are similarly inclined.

"Stereotypes"? What an innocent sounding word. It's more like lies and smears.

I find it so demoralizing to read the arguments made to justify the marginalization of drag queens and gay men who don't fit one's notion of what a "man" should be. They're essentially an echo of what a lot of homophobes say about ALL gays. So before you decide that a guy with a nelly voice or a swish in his hips isn't man enough to meet your standards, just remember that to a lot of straight men the fact you share your bed with another man means that you don't meet THEIR standards of what a man is. You can beat your chest, curse like a sailor, have a perpetual five o'clock shadow, scratch, spit and burp all you want, as far as many of them are concerned you suck dick and therefore you're not enough of a man for them. So when the homophobes and bigots turn their backs on you - and they will - please remember those men you turned your back on.

[ June 08, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Munson Man ]

Is this fear of drag queen association an established fact or mere anecdote?

Smear?

I find a bizarre irony in the perception that being associated with drag queens smears ones image somehow. Recently, I read an article about a judge ruling that threw out a man's claim of slander in being labelled gay. Part of the reasoning hinged on the fact that 'gay' is no longer the pejoritive it once was.

In order for drag queens to smear an image, one must be prejudiced against drag queens -- same thing, same sin. Stop viewing drag queens in a vile light, and your image will not be tarnished.

Munson Man,
Asking for truthfulness in the representation of same sex attraction is NOT an act of turning your back on someone. It is possible to fully support the rights of others without lumping behavioral traits into a category where they don't belong. I for one, resent these guilt trip tactics that are applied every time there's some resistance to attempts to piggyback the gay cause. Of course these self-righteous we've-got-to-include-everybody-or-we're-no-better-than-the-homophobes diatribes frequently come from the mouths of the same people who never tire of denouncing the NAMBLA types as not being part of "us." If you're picking and choosing, don't be so sanctimonious when someone else does the same thing.

So just because we think that effeminate men and drag queens should be supported and embraced just as much as those who manage to meet skjpm's manly standards in order to be referred to as "gay," or "men," or "gay men," that means we should also support and embrace CHILD ABUSERS?

skjpm: What about straight men who are masculine? Does this make them gay? What about effeminate men who are completely straight?

And the rest can go to hell?

And just how are you going to help these men?

[ June 08, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

It's not just an association with drag queens, but also an association with the (for lack of a more convenient example) Queer Eye guys and all the variations of them that the media loves to saturate us with. Fact or anecdote? It is a fact of my lifetime of observation as well as that of just about everyone I know. If you'd feel more comforted to believe otherwise simply because a formal study hasn't been published, well then go ahead.
You're misrepresenting the issue here. It's not about whether drag queens are "vile" (which they surely are not) but about whether they are representative of same-sex attraction. People don't feel good about being perceived as something which they're not. Surely you can understand the resistance to that.

There's so much distortion in that sentence I don't even know where to start.

I'm not suggesting anyone should support or embrace anything they don't want to. In fact, just the opposite. If you'd go back and read carefully you'd see that I was pointing out the hypocrisy of some people who complain about the separation of certain behaviors from the gay cause, but who are only too happy to separate where they think it's "right."

They should NOT have to support the identification of NAMBLA as representative of the gay movement, just as I should not have to support the identification of drag queens as representative of it.

You are making a comparison between men who wear dresses and men who rape boys. Thanks, Senator Santorum.

Well, it is a fact of my lifetime of observation as well as that of just about everyone I know that men don't come out as gay because of 1) Religious oppression 2) Family drama 3) Financial Security/job loss 4) Loss of Friends 5) Internalized Homophobia...

I doubt 'unwanted perception of association with flamboyant men and drag queens' even breaks the top ten.

I am not a bear.
I am not a leatherman.
I am not a twink.
I am not a drag queen.
Yet each still represents me in some small way, and has relevance to my life.
None prevent me from being me.

And you are pretending to misunderstand the actual point so that you can shift focus and demagogue using inflammatory imagery.

Thanks, Mr. Rove

I understand your "point" but vehemently disagree with it. I am insulted by your even bringing up the child molesters in this discussion. It is not a remotely valid comparison.

Okay ... I can honestly say this ... I am completely confused. What happened to this discussion? It took a 180 somewhere.

SOMEONE get it back on track!!

Well, what was the original point?? That we shouldn't allow external differences or tastes in lifestyles splinter us into warring factions?? That we should band together to demand the respect and legal recognition we deserve as members of society who shouldn't have to hide who we are??
Or were we talking about valley girls?? I can't recall.

I agree with you about point 1. It's a big factor for many people. But points 2-4, although legitimate, often RESULT from the very kind of thing I was talking about. In order to be accurate about the causes behind all of this, you have to first acknowledge the forces you're dealing with in society. Most straight guys I've known who are anti-gay in any way don't fit the frothing religious bigot profile. In fact most seem to be anything but. They don't even seem to be all that anti-gay; instead it seems that they're unnerved by gender identity issues that people have incorrectly lumped in with same-sex attraction. One quote I heard from a rather macho straight guy sums up an attitude that I've found to be VERY common. After making some pretty vague nasty comments about gay people, someone challenged him as being prejudiced. His response was something like, "Look, if they wanna suck dick, fine, I don't care, but why do they have to act like a chick"? Now before anyone gets all hysterical about how backward he is and how one prejudice is no better than another, bla bla bla.... understand that this attitude is real and very pervasive, and that being a purist about it isn't going to change anything. If you want to be effective in getting legal rights and acceptance for same sex attraction, you have to acknowledge the attitudes of the rest of the world for what they are and deal with them. Pretending otherwise doesn't help. Well, I suppose it does make some FEEL good about themselves..... "I'm better than you, because I'm inclusive and use the word 'diversity' in every third sentence. etc. etc."

There are lesbians who do not wish to work together with gays
Latinos who do not wish to work together with Chicanos
Native Americans who do not wish to work with African-Americans
vegans who won't work with vegetarians
Lutherans who don't work with Episcopalians
hunters who don't work with fisherman

The point is, there are those who from the outside look like they should have similar agendas, but don't. I wish every good upon the effeminate/drag community--I just don't share their issues and agendas. I don't think we should have to work together--I think we just get in each other's way.

This is a good discussion, whether it's on track or not. Maybe that's because there are guys who agree with me. Not everybody is giving me advice on how I should change and become a better person.

People are giving you advice because you are usually asking for advice. You don't have to change if you don't want to, but you shouldn't expect the effeminate/drag sector of gay culture to change either. We are all working for the same cause: equality. The different groups have different views of the best method to achieve equality, but we are in the same war. You fight your battle the way you see fit, and others will do the same.

Agendas? Just because people don't have everything in common doesn't mean they have their own special agendas. And even if different groups have some special concerns of their own, why shouldn't people work together if, despite their differences, they still have things in common -- like having the same civil rights under the law as straight people?

Why shouldn't men and women and gay and bi and straight-but-not-narrow and masculine and effeminate and drag queens and transgendered and nerds and jocks and stuffed shirts and hippies and yuppies and buppies and guppies and WHATEVER work together to make the nation and the world a better place? And why are you so hell-bent on separating from other people just because they're NOT. EXACTLY. LIKE. YOU.

You're here. You're queer. GET USED TO IT!

Why act like a chick?
Because we CAN!
Why dress in leather?
Because we can!
Why love another man?
Because we can!

It's all a convolution of the same thing -- freedom. Everyone has the right be who they are. To suppress one is to supress all. Perhaps the pragmatist can argue that pursuing acceptance for butch men is easier, but I'm not willing to separate one group from the other simply because it might be convenient. Freedom for ALL.

Do I think this way because it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy? No. I think this way because 'gay' entails a spectrum of sub-cultures. No one sub-group represents us all. Leaving anyone behind diminishes us all.

OK...all this drag queen bashing is just that, bashing. Does anyone who doesn't think that drag queens are not gay actually known one in person? Do you realize that drag queens don't want to be women, for the most part? Do you realize that drag is an act of gender blurring? My meaning is, the role we are expected to take as men to be equated as masculine. This has been forced down so many people's throat that it is reprehensible. It is not how we act(sociology?) that makes us men, it is biology(well mostly, but I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion of what the definition of transgender, that is a different thread topic). And what is the definition of a man? Why do we as gay men, have to define ourselves by the same standards as straight men?

Drag is also an art form, and a form of entertainment. I don't understand why drag queens shouldn't be included in the gay community. They are men who love and are attracted to men. Isn't that the definition of gay? And so getting back to the original post...we certainly should recognize the drag queens(who are gay men) and lesbians for where we are today! It's because of them having the "balls" to start the revolution, and stand up for what is right, that we can even have this dicussion.

Coming from my point of view, which is that of a 27 year old, relatively masculine, gay male, engineer, who plays hockey occationally, and who lives in a medium sized town in Montana, I think that everyone needs to take a step back from the issue and look at it from a more country wide perspective rather than from a neighborhood perspective. I am relatively out, meaning that most people who are my friends, or take an interest in my life, know my orientation. People at work who don't ask, don't know because I haven't told them. Or at least I don't think they know. Either way, I am treated as a memeber of society in my small circle and I like it.

Now that the background is done, lets start with the issue. Should all gay me be lumped togeather in this struggle for equality that we all seem to be fighting in? Should drag queens stand next to gay soccer dads at the front line of the struggle? Do the soccer dads have to identify with the drag queens and femmy guys? What is the real issue?

The real issue is this. Gay men are men who are attracted to men, and (assumption here) are attracted to male genetalia, personalities, ideologies, and generally male things.

In my short 27 years of life, and approximately 3-4 years of being out to myself and others I have gone through various stages of dealing with effiminate men, and drag queens and such, and I have to say that in the past it bothered me to even be near a drag queen, or a femmy guy, especially when in Montana, due to the likelyhood that someone would think that I was "like that". Well, I'm not like that, but they are, and that's their perogative. Who am I to say that they shouldn't do the things that make them unique? I am unique in my own right and I don't change my behavior or attitude when around other people who act differently.

Now for the brass tacks of the situation. Do we need to stand by our brothers and sisters that act in ways that we don't identify with? The answer is a resounding "YES". We are not talking about one right or another here, we are talking about basic HUMAN RIGHTS. Everyone deserves to be treated equally. No matter how they dress, how they talk, how they walk, or who they sleep with. People are people.

Instead of spending our time as a community deciding which "TYPE" of person we are going to go to bat for, we need to go to bat for everyone, not just the ones who are easy to help. I don't care if you don't identify with femmy guys or not. Did you ever think that they see you as a henderance to their cause because you don't act stereotypical? They could see use masculine guys as a barrier because we don't necessarly campaign for gay rights 24/7 like they are forced to due to their manurisms(sp?)

When I walked into my voting place today, there were 2 little old ladies sitting there asking people to sign a petition to get a marriage ammendment placed on the ballot. I asked them why they would want to write descrimination into the constitution of Montana? Their answer was "because I'm a Christian." They could care less if you act femmy or masculine, they are so focused on the "gay sex" aspect of the situation that a person's manurisms don't even play a role in the equation. To them it's all about sin. plain and simple.

It's time that everyone realize that infighting within the "community" is of no help to us. Oh yes, it is a community, and we are an "us". I'm not saying that you have to like everyone or even respect everyone, but you need to respect the goal that we as a group are going for because all these people that you say you don't identify with are still fighting for the same thing you are, and that's equality.

Ok, I'll step off my soap box. Thanks for listening, if you made it this far. I'm in a riled up mood after doing battle with the little old christian ladies at the voting spot. One lady actually placed her fingers in her ears because she didn't want to listen to what I had to say. They made me so mad, that I had to take a step back and realize that not everyone in the world is as bigoted as these women are, and that one day, no matter how someone acts or looks, or who they sleep with, we will be equal and be able to get married one day.

And you have the GALL to complain in other threads about other gay people marginalizing YOU because you think you don't fit a typical definition of gay. And here you are, saying you would marginalize and suppress a group who don't fit YOUR definition of gay?!?!!! I hope you can see the problem here.

Then these \"male-identified men\" (a.k.a. straight-acting) like yourself must COME OUT OF THE DAMN CLOSET! You've got nerve posting this, when you won't even tell your straight buddies that you're gay.

Then don't do it. Go crawl back in your hole and be quietly gay.


MSUBobcat - Outstanding post. Excellent.

It's so hot when maxybaby gets all worked up...

You know, i dont have alot of common traits, but i sorta dig that queer eye show. Never once did i think i was being taken advantage of... If anything it's pretty cool that it's a hit to me.

I dont care for drag queen, or little queens. However, i'd never let anything bad happen to one either.

I am absolutely floored by some of the comments being made here. Now I realize just how far we have to go with regards to the rights of the GLBT community. IMHO as long as we are second class citizens in this country, we do indeed have to work together.

It maybe easy for people to disassociate themselves from drag queens and femmy's but let me tell you something. It's the drags queens the femmy's, dykes and and all the people that are secure enough with themselves that they aren't afraid to associate themselves with the groups mentioned above, that have been working very hard for change in this country.

I am a man, I happen to be attracted to other men, I am a man that has good friends that are trustworthy, secure and succesful. I have very good friends that are father's, doctor's, lawyer's, coaches, atheletes, counselors, etc. I also have many friends that are life-long partners. I too have a partner that I fall comepletely in love with everytime I see his face or hear his voice and we've been together for almost 14 years now.

I am proud to also say I am a drag queen. I have raised enough money, been to enough protests, done enough AIDS walks, tried to educate and counsel enough gay youth and assisted enough men with AIDS to know that it does indeed take everyone in our community to work together and make a difference.

How can you dare say you do not want to be associated with certain people in our community when you don't really know who we are on the inside! It really get's to me when people judge people based on what they think we are. Most amazing to me is that I'm actually saying this to gay people! Now I can say that I have seen it all.

And as a peson of color, I am very insulted when you talk about Mammy this and Uncle Tom that. Those people had the guts to put themselves on the front line for their community only to have you make little of their efforts. Shame on you.

I am proud of all the things I do for our community. And yes, many community events that I have participated in, I've done in a dress. All of these gay kids that are homeless, all of the men with AIDS that I have helped die with dignity when their families wrote them off, and all of the other events I attend, I do with pride.

Grant it, I don't expect all gay people to be that invloved but it really yanks my chain when I see people saying that they reject me because I choose to wear a dress. You're making/passing judgement on people when you don't even know them. We all want the same thing. We all want respect, love and equal rights. Even though I view what some of you have said as hate, I will continue to press on and do what I can to make sure my community, (and that includes you) keeps moving forward and in the right direction.

You seem to be just as bad as the racists and bigots out there. You put down/reject people in your own community because of what they wear and how they act. To me that's a sign of a very insecure person that is in dire need of help. Good luck, I hope you can accept who you are someday, because when that happens, that's when you will be able to be loved and accepted by others.

Jumping off the soapbox now.

One guy might like to fish--and be against all guns. Another guy might like to fish--and hunt elk, bear, and moose, and own an AK47. They are the same because they both like to fish. And they are the same because they both have the basic human right to pursue happiness.

But--they won't be able to support each other's agendas. They are going to vote differently and attend different public demonstrations. Where one will claim victory, one will see an infringement of rights.

It has nothing to do with liking each other or wanting to marginalize the other. They just don't have the same issues and they probably won't spend too much time together.

It would be wrong to force them to work together just because they both like to fish.

Oh the self-righteous pontificating in this thread.

Some of these arguments are very flawed to say the least. The claim seems to be that those who state factually that transvestism is not an inherent part of same sex attraction and that it should not be identified with it, are therefore not supportive of legal equality for drag queens and others. That claim is simply not true. Certainly not for me. I support legal equality for EVERYONE. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to go through all sorts of logical leaps and somehow claim that transvestism is related to my experience. It's no more related than say, rock climbing, witchcraft, or auto racing. Yes, it's possible for any of those people to also be gay, but the issues are not connected in any inherent way.

Now if you want to say that there should be a kind of solidarity between all people who've been discriminated against, then that's great. I agree. But not all those people are "gay," and consequently should not be lumped into the same-sex attraction category when the reason they're discriminated against has nothing to do with same-sex attraction. It's simply a matter of characterizing people and causes accurately. Can we support each other? Absolutely, there's no objection to that. But to falsely lump us together so that the rest of the world sees us that way is not helpful. Again, it shouldn't be hard to understand that PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO BE SEEN FOR SOMETHING THEY'RE NOT. And with the way the media is portraying same-sex attraction today, that is happening.

[ June 08, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: torsten ]

Once again you are missing THE POINT. Your logic is so flawed here. But let's go with it for a moment. Let's take a look at your fishing analogy. It works if the issue is gun control (I assume that is what you are referring to here). You are correct in that the two parties, while both like to fish, have different opinions on gun control, and the issue that is being debated is gun control. The two will not be on the same side, and they will not be lumped together just because they both like to fish. Fishing is irrelevant to the discussion.

BUT, what if the people in their community wanted to ban fishing? Hmmmmmmmm... do you think that perhaps the two might have something in common, something to fight together? If fishing is that important to them, perhaps they would set aside their other differences (gun control) to fight for their right to fish.

Now, since apparently I have to spell this out here, let's substitute being gay for fishing, and acting fem and acting masculine for pro gun control and anti gun control. If people wanted to pass laws against acting fem (or vice versa, for that matter), then perhaps the masculine acting gay men wouldn't feel the need to support their gay brethern. After all, these laws don't affect them. But guess what? Last time I checked, people are not delineating between fem acting men and straight acting men. They want to discriminate, and even pass laws, based on the fact that you are gay, not whether you act fem or masculine. In that case, yes, perhaps the fem and masculine men do have something in common and need to work together. And realize that BOTH groups are being discriminated against, not just one.

Does this make ANY sense to you?

Nice post Penn State.

Ummmmmmmm... maybe. For once I may partially agree with you. It might have moved the process along a little faster. Though, let's be honest, most people use religion to oppose homosexuality and gay rights. The last time I checked, Jerry Falwell, et al weren't preaching about the sins of fem acting gay men, but ALL gay men.
You know what? The fem acting guys came out of the closet and fought for the right to be treated the same as everyone else. The masculine gay men didn't. And you know what? In large part they still don't. So whose fault is it that you have to "fight" these stereotypes? You have a big set of cajones for complaining about the lack of "male-identified" (that's a new one) gay men role models active in lobbying for gay rights, when you yourself are sitting home alone being "quietly gay."

Your argument holds no water. There's a fundamental difference. The NAMBLA folks encourage and participate in acts that are illegal in every state and most countries. The people you dismiss so cavalierly are doing nothing remotely illegal. They simply act in a way that YOU disapprove of. If my recognizing your internalized homophobia for what it is strikes you as sanctimonious, well, so be it - I can only hope that some day you can recognize it as well.

[ June 08, 2004, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Munson Man ]

What about Log Cabin Republicans? There's a group I feel is truly misguided. Do I have to align with them just because they're gay? Or can I say that I have no interest in helping them promote their agenda? They have every right to be who they are, and I wish them the best, but I don't have to support them just because we share one thing in common. And if I don't have to align with Log Cabin Republicans, then I don't have to align with the effeminate/drag scene, either.

And I'm not alone in my room, being quietly gay. I have you people. wink

Nobody is saying that you have to align yourself with Log Cabin Republican, fems, drag queens, or anything like that. You should, however, realize that you all support the movement for equal rights to gay people. Each has a different way of trying to further the movement. You should find a gay niche that you feel that fits you (we get that it won't be fems & queens) and do what you feel is necessary to obtain the same rights as straight people.

Being gay does not mean you have to associate with every gay sub-culture. But you shouldn't treat them like second class citizens either.

How have I dismissed and disapproved of these people? I've publicly stated my support for their full equality. Simply noting that their agenda is different from mine is not the same as dismissing their humanity. As for the comparison, has it not occured to you that law is a fluid concept? And that advocating CHANGE of law is the major thrust of both mainstream and fringe groups? I'm not even sure what your point was with that commentary. It certainly didn't refute the fact that people act hypocritically with their including/separating unrelated groups from the gay cause. Also, your statement there rests solely on current legal status. Does legal status at any given time determine right and wrong for you? You seem to have forgotten that until last year much sexual expression between gay people was ILLEGAL in some states. If group A advocates changing a law to lower age of consent and group B advocates changing a law to legalize same sex marriage, both are working against current law.
It's hard to get past the profound ignorance in comments like this. The ideas put forth by both of us stand on their own -- and their validity is not determined by our motivations or backgrounds. But you're apparently one of those people who finds objective discourse problematic. When faced with a situation where your assertions aren't as easily supported as those of one who disagrees with you, you reach for the easiest thing: personal accusations. "Internalized homophobia" is one of those convenient buzz terms that the logically-challenged reach for in fits of petulant desperation. I've encountered people of similar mentality who in other debates, reach for their own crutches which have absolutely no application to the subject matter at hand. "Racist" is one of their favorites. It's like they've been taught that it's a kind of verbal kryptonite. Just saying it absolves you from any further responsibility for defending what you've asserted -- and you can sit there smug in your belief that the other person is wrong because he's in THAT category. I understand why those kind of beliefs are attractive to so many people; it's just like fundamentalism in that it frees you from actually having to think.

I absolutely love being gay and have ever since the attractions kicked in at puberty. Never had a problem with the fact that I was a boy who liked boys (although of course others did). Yet I run into people all the time who say things like "I just came to terms with myself when I was 20" etc. etc. And these are usually the first ones to trot out their newly programmed talking points (accusations of homophobia and such) whenever someone challenges their thinking about gay issues.

I will never understand this viewpoint coming from straight men... :mad: I wonder what the women present said/did when they heard that bit of wisdom... eek!
Feminine does not equal bad/inferior. No matter where it comes from. Straight men must accept this. Then this debate amongst us might cease to exist...that's all I have to contribute; I've said my peace.

Well at least they didn't spell it "condom" which is how my twisted little mind read it the first time I saw it.

Back to the discussion, I have always felt that the situation of Gays is more analogous to that of Jews than to Blacks. Being "out" for for the two former groups is more of a choice than a necessity - the fundamental difference being the sexual component in what makes us different from the rest, rather than the religio-cultural component as it is for Jews.

There is probably also a debate over whether the distinction is inherent or acquired in both cases - the answer depending on whom you ask more than scientific fact.

There is arguably more diversity in the gay community (hard to measure since it is likely that most of us are still in the closet) so uniting us in a goal requires pretty extreme external pressure. As that pressure is lifted a more natural diversity of opinions will take (is taking?) place.

For both groups, and others who are excluded from full participation in the human endeavor, it is necessary to place that struggle in the context of the progress of each of the other groups as well.

When each of us has had the time to vent, at the end of the day, we have to develop as individuals. All of our problems derive from individual selfishness, and the solutions from overcoming it.

Venting is good, but only if you find something at the end of the vent. Otherwise it's just hot air. Personally, I see a lot of potentially useful venting going on here.

[ June 09, 2004, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

I am a Christian. I don't align myself with all Christians--far from it. I stand against Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, the Roman Catholic heirarchy, the Southern Baptists, etc. These people distort the message, and they make it difficult for me to lead the life I want to lead. Even if they have done good things--the Pope's stand against the war in Iraq, for instance--their overall effect is negative.

The fact that they create visibilty for the Christian message doesn't make them good. In fact, in order to talk about the real gospel, I have to explain them away. They make sharing the message harder.

I feel exactly the same way about the eff./drag group. They have made it difficult for me to say what I want to say about myself as a gay man. One reason I am quietly gay is because I don't want my experience to be clouded by their example. That's not who I am, any more than Jerry Falwell is who I am. And I don't want to have to constantly explain the difference.

It sounds to me like you are trying to identify yourself with a standard that doesn't exist. I'm gay, I have a boyfriend. 90% of my friends are straight, just because that's the way it happened. I don't fit into the bar/drag/effeminate/whatever scene. I'm still gay, so are all those other gay people out there I have very little in common with. I can't imagine why the actions of another gay person would embarrass me or make it hard for me to disclose my sexuality. I try really hard to appreciate differences and just have a good time in life. I spent enough time being miserable when I was closeted.

Basically, live and let live.

I guess the bottom line is if you really think drag queens are making your life more difficult, you are welcome to think that way. But rest of us recognize (even applaud) the right of drag queens to be fiercely fantabulous. Seriously, what is there for you to do other than complain? You can't shut them up (Just go ahead and try, hee hee). You can't hide them (New Game! Hide the drag queen). Are you just idly wishing the world was different? I often wish that a certain catcher with thick thighs, a dashing goatee, and piercing blue eyes will make a visit to my humble home in nothing but his... but that's not particularly productive now is it?

Thankfully the rest of us don't draw the same analogy between Christians:Jerry Falwell and Gay:Drag Queens. Jerry Falwell is WRONG. Of course Christians not believing in the same philosopy will oppose him. You yourself admit that Drag Queens are NOT wrong. So what's the problem?

As for the drag queen agenda, I haven't even gotten my copy of the gay agenda so I'm really not in the position to make a point-by-point comparison. Could you forward me a copy? Thanks.