Does anyone think that Joe Gibbs will really return to the Redskins and work for Dan Snyder?

This is a link from the Washington Post.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...2-2004Jan6.html

Would Snyder be willing to give Gibbs complete control? That's the only way I could see it happening.

Our Saviour is coming back!!!

Every other NFL coach seems much smaller this morning.

This is definitely great news for all Redskin fans!....Gibbs may be 63 yrs old but few coaches have ever displayed the work ethic, desire to win AND integrity that he brought to the coaching confession and IF he can put up with Snyder's B.S. and meddling then the 'Skins return to glory (and NFC East titles) may come much sooner than most "experts" anticipated.

ESPN Radio is reporting that it is Joe Gibbs' friendship with one of Snyder's minority owners that allowed this deal to happen and that he has already hired former Bills head man Gregg Williams as Defensive Coordinator....as long as he doesn't bring Joe Theismann out of the broadcast booth (which, come to think of it, would probably be a GOOD thing ) to become QB coach or something then the mediocity that the loyal DC fans have suffered through during most of the last decade may soon be a thing of the past.

Your gift for the overreaching statement never ceases to astound me.

The Head Hog is also coming back. Joe Bugel is going to be Gibb's offensive line coach again.

Which of my statements was overreach? That Our Savior is back? Well, he is. Or that every other NFL coach seems much smaller this morning? Well, they do.

His performance on returning will be closer to Joe Paterno than Dick Vermeil, especially
with a meddling idiot like Snyder as team owner,
not a hands-off man lik Jack Kent Cooke.

Gibbs has been away from the game far too long to keep up and be effective. Vermeil and
Parcells kept their heads and hands in the game while away from the sidelines, that's
why they've succeeded.


Bob Dog

Bob Dog,

I could not agree more. I also think that perhaps Snyder is throwing away the future for the dream of an instant gratification of a Super Bowl Championship. fact is that Gibbs is 63 and what will Snyder do when Gibbs does retire? He will be back in the same boat. I have long felt that Snyder should have found himself a promising asst. coach somewhere and let him take over. In fact he should have done that a long time ago.

You obviously know nothing about the Redskins. First, Joe Gibbs went to the booth and then the studio after he retired in '92. He's also been a part owner of the Falcons for the past few years so his number of years he's been completely disconnected from the NFL is few.

Also, JKC was far from hands off. He was extremely overbearing. All you had to do was hear him speaking. Or see his whorish 30-something wife when he was almost 80.

Both, and you're out of your tree again. He's just another good coach with not enough talent and a meddling owner. If the owner stops meddling and gets him talent, he may win. Assuming, of course, the talent isn't of the arrogant Terrell Owens/Keyshawn Johnson "team cancer" variety. Gibbs has been out of the sport awhile. Players are much more inclined to be rebellious and out for themselves and the money. Can he adjust to that the way Dick Vermeil has?

Regarding Jack Kent Cooke: maybe he was overbearing, but did he override coaches' decisions and cut players the coach wanted to keep? Can Gibbs put up with that?

[ January 07, 2004, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Read my previous posts. Obviously the non-Redskins fans here know very little about the history of my beloved team. Jack Kent Cooke's antics were legendary. Snyder is tame, in many respects, by comparison.

...and the Redskins have plenty of talent. It's just been vastly undercoached in the past couple of years. They have more talent than they Cowboys used to win 10 games this year and they have the 5th pick in the draft.

I guarantee you that Dan Snyder will "become" a much better owner with Joe Gibbs on the sidelines.

[ January 07, 2004, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: PCC ]

I haven't seen confirmation that Gibbs is returning to the Skins but, if so, despite Synder I predict he will give the team a big boost. He is a consummate professional and a great coach.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

I beg to differ.

The Redskins had one of the worst front fours in the league this year, the linebackers were CONSISTENTLY out of position (Jeremiah Trotter in particular, and he should know better). Offensively, the line play was horrible until Hasselbeck got in there and the running game was all but non-existent. Special teams coverage also left something to be desired.

Joe Gibbs is a great coach, and I wouldn't be surprised if the team makes some huge strides in '04. But I also wouldn't be surprised if the team took no more than baby steps. I don't think Gibbs will be on the sidelines any longer than three years.

How many Eagles are in the Pro Bowl? How many Redskins are in the Pro Bowl? How many Eagles are starting in the Pro Bowl? How many Redskins are starting in the Pro Bowl?

[ January 07, 2004, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: PCC ]

Congratulations to Redskins fans on hiring the best coach out on the market today....

....However, remember one thing: Meddlesome Daniel Snyder STILL owns the team. Until something changes with the way the team is mismanaged above the coaching position on the organization chart, it's very doubtful that any coach, regardless of how great he is, will be able to turn the team into a legitimate threat.

[ January 07, 2004, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: coyoteugly ]

This is Joe Gibbs you're talking about, right? I think 124-60 in the regular season and 16-5 in the playoffs is more than \"just another good coach.\" Or maybe I'm missing something here. I don't see any Super Bowl titles in Philadelphia at the moment, and I certainly don't see three of them.

If there's one thing Gibbs has ever been good at, it's making adjustments, sometimes between offensive series. The Cowboys were a mess in terms of talent and in terms of attitude until Bill Parcells got there. I guess something about flashing two Super Bowl championship rings and an AFC championship ring kind of registered that \"hey, maybe this guy knows what he's doing. Maybe I'd better get on board.\" If anyone can turn the Redskins into a contender fast, Gibbs probably could be the one.

Cooke often was the tiebreaker whenever GM Bobby Bethard and Gibbs disagreed, but Cooke let the football people make most of the football decisions. With how much Snyder seems to idolize Gibbs, he might pull a Jerry Jones and stand back and let Gibbs run the show.

Having "plenty of talent" is completely different from having no weaknesses. Better coaching and a better scheme will cover a lot of the problems, particularly on the offensive line. As I said before, they have more talent than Bill Parcell used to get the Cowboys to 10 wins this year, starting at quarterback.

...and you know whose offense Carolina's offensive coordinator Dan Henning, former Redskins assistant coach, is running down there?

Sorry PCC but when you shuffle players in and out each year like a "fantasy team" you're gonna suck.

OH HE LOOKS GOOD, LETS GET HIM... Parcells wouldnt even be able to deal with that. The problem is not the skins talent.. the problem is the shuffling of the team. You can take 10 pro-bowl players and throw them together, but it's still gonna take them a season to learn how to play together... by the end of the season danny boy and his little spending purse will grow tired of them and change...

That right there is the problem... I dont care who the coach is.. the skins wont win till danny boy is gone... or spends more time away from the team.

Yeah, and the Panthers are setting the NFL on fire for their offensive prowess.

Face it, unless the Redskins do something like go 12-4 next year and at least play in the Super Bowl, we could be discussing who the next coach will be after Gibbs decides he's had enough (again).

If Gibbs squeezes even an NFC Championship Game berth out of this Redskins team in the 2004 season, I will personally write his nomination for sainthood because it will be a modern miracle.

Well, what can I say but, enjoy the Redskins playoff game this weekend...

They're still playing and that's all that matters.

And that's exactly where coaching comes in.

I hesitate to get into an internecine squabble about the NFC Least, but . . .

I agree with those who think that Snyder's inept meddling (Exhibit # 1, signing Jeff Goerge; Exhibit #2, ditching Stephen Davis) is a problem that even Gibbs won't be able to surmount, even though he is an all-timer among NFL coaches.

But on this point Joe, PCC has the better argument. His initial point was that the Indigenous Persons had plenty of talent, but weren't coached well. You pooh-poohed that suggestion. PCC's rebuttal about Pro-Bowl players was pretty strong evidence for his point. The fact that that many pro-bowl players were on one team and they still didn't make the playoffs helps his argument, not yours.

Yeah but fat sapp went to the pro-bowl... and i can think of oh... 10,000 better guys on the DL than him.

That statement is clearly indicative of someone who didn't follow the Skins very closely during the Jack Kent Cooke era....Snyder may be attacked for being meddlesome (and deservedly so) but few owners of ANY sports franchise have ever been LESS "hands-off" than JKC, who never met a microphone or camera that he didn't like.

As for the Redskins success during "phase 2" of the Joe Gibbs era, only time will tell if he is able to lead them back to the Super Bowl (or even the NFC Championship for that matter) but I am CERTAIN that Gibbs will show Andy Reid VERY quickly what REAL coaching in the NFL is all about -- while the fat man in Philly is left scratching his head wondering what happened to his string of NFC East titles, which will now be a thing of the past, starting in 2004!

This is a fair point -- the Pro Bowl roster is not a perfect measure of talent -- but it still correlates pretty well. To imply, as Joe in Philly did, that the Redskins lack talent, when they landed a couple pro bowlers, is reaching.

A better rebuttal to PCC than Joe's dismissive "Riiiiiiight" would be to point out that in fact, Philly has as many players on the Pro Bowl roster this year as does Washington: 2 each. True, Arrington and Bailey are starters, while McNabb and Troy Vincent are backups, but that's not too much of a distinction.

The fact that fans have a say in the Pro Bowl makes the point meaningless.

Listen,

The pro-bowl is a popularity contest. Troy Vincent did not deserve to go.. not at all. Yes, he's important to the team.. but this year he's not an all pro.

This hire by danny boy was based on ONE THING. Parcells. He looked at what parcells did in Dallas and said I WANT THAT. So he went after Gibbs. Just like he saw what the Jets did last year and said "I want that". When he sees something succeed next year, he's gonna want that. ie nothing is stable.

How many pro-bowlers you have on a team doesnt say how good you are what-so-ever. You can have 10 all-pro lb's who run around like madmen, but if they dont play as a team, it wont matter.. you will lose. The skins, with as much talent as they have, play that way.

Yeah. What he said.

Given where the Redskins have drafted the past 5-10 years, they should/do have the talent.

But like I have said in thread after thread on this board, it's chemistry, chemistry, chemistry.

Ownership, general management and coaching must be on the same page. You cannot bring in a player like Darryl Russell and expect an injection of anything positive. You cannot ursurp the coach by recommending that an offfensive or defensive "consultant" come in to make things better.

Snyder needs to own, period and that's where his role should end. Someone (a proven NFL GM) needs to general manage, evaluate talent and make player personnel moves in coordination with the coach. And the coach needs to coach.

You can't have a 35 year old billionaire managing a football team and expect success. Stay in your luxury box, and shut the hell up, Danny!

Another difference to consider is that the players didn't have free agency when Gibbs last coached. With the free agency and salary cap, players switch teams constantly. When Gibbs ran the Redskins this didn't happen so he was able to keep the team together.

Which is completely trumped by winning two Superbowls in strike years. Remember Joe Gibbs went 3-0 with a team made entirely of scabs. The third win coming against the Cowboys who had 18 regular players.

Ultimately, whichever coach looks across the field at Joe Gibbs, is already outcoached.

Coyote, I agree with everything you said, except that I would have said "f***" instead of "hell," and maybe have tacked on "you eedjit" at the end.

You know, the surprise hiring of Gibbs is the most interesting development in offseason coaching moves in years. But this kind of smug assertion is beyond absurd.

PCC, ever heard of Bill Belichick? Dick Vermeil? Bill Parcells? Gibbs may beat any of them on any given Sunday; but to say those three guys are outcoached before the opening kickoff? Laughable.

He won't have to face Belichick until 2007, and he may not be in Maryland that long, anyway. Vermeil will likely retire before Maryland faces KC in 2005. But Gibbs has to face Parcells twice next year, and I'll wager any amount you like that Parcells gets at least a split of those 2 games.

Actually, that goes to SUPPORT Joe's point a little bit. Remember that the Redskins were the ONLY team in the NFL that didn't have a single veteran cross the picket line. That meant that all the veterans were in it together.

The Skins played those three games against: The Cardinals (who had 11 regs), the Giants (who could HARDLY be called defending Super Bowl champions... that scab team was WEAK), and the aforementioned Cowboys.

I hope everyone agrees that Gibbs is an outstanding coach. How much he'd make a difference after an 11 year absence remains to be seen. I don't think you'll see a Bengals-esque turnaround in Washington, but we'll see what happens.

[ January 07, 2004, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: DestinyRules ]

First of all, you're wrong about the Redskins being the ONLY team where no veterans crossed the picket line. Buddy Ryan's message to his players when the strike occured was to stay together. Either everyone crosses together or no one crosses. No one crossed.

And where do you see that I don't think Gibbs is a good coach? All I'm pointing out is that he's not automatically better than every other coach, and the situation in the NFL has changed a LOT since he last coached, and he still may be hampered by the meddling jackass who owns the team. I'd say there's myopia all over this thread, but it's not mine.

A poll at the Washington Post website:


What will be the biggest obstacle Joe Gibbs will face in his return to the NFL?
18617 responses so far:
Salary cap (8.6%), 1603 votes
Dan Snyder (43.1%), 8016 votes
Today's players (16.8%), 3128 votes
Parity in the NFL (4.9%), 905 votes
Retaining staff (6.6%), 1235 votes
All of the above (20.0%), 3730 votes

I've heard of them and they certainly are good coaches. They just aren't Joe Gibbs. Even among good coaches, there's a best and Joe Gibbs is it.

No that supports mine. Gibbs had to coach an entire roster of players who didn't know his offense and had never played together. This was a true test of coaching ability because every team was roughly on the same footing. And he still shined above. A few players coming in and out because of free agency is nothing compared to this.

And the Redskins were the only team that had no players cross the picket line, Joe.

[quote]PCC:
[QUOTE]Even among good coaches, there's a best and Joe Gibbs is it.[/quote]Oh Please.... this is where you completely lose all credibility.

[quote]coyoteugly:
[quote]PCC:
[QUOTE]Even among good coaches, there's a best and Joe Gibbs is it.[/quote]Oh Please.... this is where you completely lose all credibility. [/quote]I actually thought he lost all credibility one post earlier, when he said every other coach is automatically outcoached when they're across the field from Gibbs.

But, whatever. Perhaps next year, coyoteugly, you can give PCC the recipe you used when you ate crow about Manning. He's going to need it.

There isn't a best among good coaches?

There is, and Gibbs ain't it!

How many Superbowls have Belichick, Parcells and Vermeil won, combined? How many have Joe Gibbs won?

If Gibbs' track record during his first tenure with the Redskins (3 Super Bowl championships -- with 3 different starting QB's, nonetheless) doesn't put him at the top of the list, he's gotta be damn close!....if there's a "Mount Rushmore" listing the top 4-6 coaches in NFL history, Gibbs' name has got to be included among the immortals of the coaching profession.

[ January 07, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: gamecock ]

PCC, I'm with you 100% in wanting Gibbs to turn this mess around, but your posts are making me nervous. I was saying similar things about Spurrier two years ago, and now....

Urp.

i REALLY dont think anyone is saying that gibbs is a bad coach. But look, he fired shotty a few years ago for the flash of the ball coach. Now when that doesnt work (not that he gave it time).. he sees that parcells did well in dallas... HEY, let's pay gibbs to come back! yeah man!

This man flys the seat of his pants. He's the problem and i dont care who the coach is, till he changes his ways... god himself could coach that team and lose.

Don Shula
George Halas
Chuck Noll
Tom Landry
Curly Lambeau
Paul Brown
Dan Reeves

Shall I continue? Gibbs is a nice guy. Gibbs is a good coach. Is he one of the all time greats? Maybe, maybe not. Among the immortals of the coaching profession? No, he's not. You people are talking about him like he is the second coming of Christ. Football has changed considerably since he last coached a game. In the era of salary caps, free agents, billionaire buttinsky owners... Let's face it Skin fans, this is your season. The day you finally get to talk positive about your team with the rest of the league, but you're all overdoing it a bit. His hiring was a good move. I'm all for it, but your excitement has got you dreaming illusions of grandeur.

Edited here to add:

Vince Lombardi
Bill Walsh
Bud Grant
Hank Stram

[ January 07, 2004, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: coyoteugly ]

What is this a list of?