Outsports.Lets talk about monogamy. Is that possible for gay men or is it an out-dated old fashioned notion.I would really like to hear your views on this.
What do you all think of open relationships where each partner can sleep with other partners.
I think that Gay men under 35 have a harder time with monogamy than older gay men...Maybe its the amount of testosterone and sex drive. Do you all think that gay men who are looking for a monogamous relationship and a white picket fence are setting themselves up for a heartache.....and a heartbreak...??? Open relationships seem a good alternative. I can't believe there are some people who think that their lover of partner will not cheat on them when there are so many hot and tempting men out there. I just think at some point we have to be realistic. Please share your views here.

Lots of non-sports "let's-get-to-know-each-other" kinda posts lately...OK, I'm game.

1st relationship (5.5 years)--Don't ask, don't tell policy. It worked well for our situation, but love waned.

2nd relationship (3 years)--Open relationship. Fun, but jealousy was more prevalent. Still, downfall was that love waned.

3rd relationship (2.5 years so far)--Monogamous. An open relationship just wouldn't work for either one of us. I do miss sexual variety, but it's all about your priorities, so all that candy isn't really tempting.

Trust, honesty and communication are the keys whether open/closed/revolving/whatever.

BballDC, Unless you are at your partner's side 24 hours a day, how do you know the relationship is monogamous?

Let me answer for you BballDC....

LSU, it is a little thing called TRUST. It is earned over time and can be taken away in an instant. Without it, you CANNOT have a serious relationship.

Next question!

I suppose that in theory an open relationship could work for some, but for me it would detract from the quality of the primary relationship. I think it boils down to how you view sex. If it's pretty much just a recreational pursuit, then you're more likely to want an open relationship. If, however, you view sex as at its best an expression of love for the other person, you're more likely to strive for monogamy. Put me in the "love" category.

That's why I think a monogamous relationship can be so difficult for guys in their teens and twenties. You're just exploring your sexuality (not to mention all those hormones coursing through your veins), and haven't really (dare I say it?) matured enough to have a deeper understanding of sex. Same thing is often true, I think, for guys who are coming out later in life. They seem to have to go through a period of sexual adolescence before "settling down."

I find the idea of so-called, "open relationships" silly, and seeming to lack a sense of responsibility to oneself.

If a guy wants to play the field and date as many other men as he can manage, that's his business, and more power to him, but then having a "boyfriend" too is sort of redundant.

It's more mature and growth positive to say to a guy, "I enjoy your company, I want to be here with you now," and perhaps even communicate a sense of being open to more consistency with that person, yet with a sense of no expectations. That way, everybody's on the same page, and you have room to grow.

Otherwise, it's like saying, "gee you're really hot, but right now -- damn, that fine man over there is going to be the one. see ya!"

Ever since I was a teenager I was about monogamy. Not that I didn't find other people attractive but ultimately the person I was with was who I wanted to be with. If that was no longer the case then I would simply break up with that person because our relationship had enough holes in it that I would want to be with someone else. I think open relationships, whether gay or straight, are doomed from the beginning because of jealousies. They also send a very clear message: You are not enough to fulfill me.

Z

[quote]Originally posted by LSUTigers:
BballDC, Unless you are at your partner's side 24 hours a day, how do you know the relationship is monogamous?

---

Well, thanks to GoMonica, who answered it best: trust. Could he be cheating and I don't know it? Of course. But we have honesty, trust & love, so it's really not an issue. 24 hours a day with my b/f?? I love him, but hell no!

LSU, you imply that you don't feel you can ever trust another person, therefore you shouldn't be monogamous. Maybe that's been your experience, and that's too bad. There really are people out there who won't fu*k you over.

That's not an endorsement that monogamy is the best way to be in a relationship. To each his own. I know several couples (and a triple) with happy open-relationships. Sex and love are separate entities. It's nice to have them together, but I'm pretty sure most of us can separate the two.

Wow even though this thread is very new there are already so much I agree with.

Zman is right on when it comes to relationships – I completely agree about how open relationships are just a bunch of crock. How can you even really be in a relationship if your not completely commited. To me in order for a relationship to be there needs to be a commitment to each other – otherwise its called friends with benefits. In the past I have been in situations of friends with benefits and have seen both sides of it the good and the bad but in no way did either of us think it was a relationship – maybe it is really in the way you define relationship.

With me, being in my twenties, I would prefer a monogamous relationship instead of friends with benefits (that’s how I perceive what an open relationship actually is). I am probably setting myself up for the heartache that will come but yes I do hold onto the white picket fence theory and hope to find myself a man that also holds this. My current problem with relationships (probably should be another thread) has to deal with being very hooked on physical beauty at this age. I have been involved with the nicest people in the world but I am so damn superficial that I can not get past the “I can do better than this guy” thing. I know I am a complete ass but hey admittance is a huge step and I have done that. Currently I am not satisfied with a average looking guy that is extremely nice and has a great personality, I want a great looking guy that is extremely nice and has a great personality. I know this is going to be next to impossible to find but hopefully one day I will find it. Until that comes along I guess I am just going to have to deal with the extremely hot guys that are a**es and have no personality.

Many of you probably think ‘wow what a f-ing prick this kid is’ but this is the phase I am in right now, as I mature and grow I will probably change and realize that physical beauty is very shallow and only goes so far in developing who a person is. At least I can be honest with myself and others and not try to put on a huge show like some do. Plus considering I am new to the gay scene (Sunday will be my one year exactly from the day I came out) and have recently moved to san fran from michigan – I think I desearve a little a**hole time.

Ok I probably have done enough damage already – please don’t completely exclude me from other posts because of the above thread – like I said at least I am admitting that I harbor these feeling, even though they are very shallow.

yo sparty on
u get *some* points for honesty <g>, except there is one thing you gotta be corrected on:

physical beauty itself isn't shallow, the constant pursuit of it at the cost of looking for anything deeper in a person is what's shallow.

physical beauty in and of itself can be quite a compelling and wondrous thing to behold--physical beauty, that is, that corresponds to what you find beautiful...in other words, the old cliche stands--beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

i think steve nash is one of the most beautiful creatures on the planet. My friend thinks he's an animal. HIs beauty would attract me but repel my friend...

what someone else's physical beuaty doesn't do, i think, is fulfill the deepest part of what YOU have to offer as a person...when that pursuit of physical beauty does define the deepest part of what you think of yourself as a person--only then is it truly and irrevocably "shallow"...

does that make sense?

it's been a long day...i may not be communicating very well <g>

Hmmm...tough one here. First of all, I've only had any experiences with 2 guys. The first one I made the mistake of falling head over heels for and getting obsessed and depressed over, the second one was short and a bit awkward as a romance, but he's a pretty good friend of mine now. I'm still young (20), and still attracted to every hot piece of a** that I see. But I do have a few ground rules for myself that I will follow no matter what.

1) Friends with Benefits is OK. As a matter of fact, I think that's kind of an ideal situation for me at this point. But never more than one friend with benefits at any given time.

2) Yes, physical beauty is important. But most of the time the guys I find physically beautiful are straight or stupid. And while I find myself attracted to beautiful guys, I make it a point not to completely rule out average looking guys. I can usually find something I really like in them pretty quickly, especially when they show interest in me first.

3) IF another guy shows interest in me first, I'll give them a chance as long as they are:
A) Gainfully employed
Bathe daily
C) Are not ridiculously obese, obviously drug addled, and/or old enough to be a parental figure.

This does not mean I will sleep with them or have some kind of major relationship with them, but I will atleast give them a chance. Who knows? I could get swept off my feet, and the worst that could happen is that I have to call my friends after the date is over and pull out my bitchy gossipy side.

Those are the only rules I have for now. Basically, I'm just now getting to the point where I'm beginning to date and hang out and play the field, so I figure I should keep things open but keep them sort of safe as well. These things will change with time, I'm sure. Peace.

Fellow Spartan, I see nothing wrong with your post. I am 33, in a great 4-year monogamous relationship and can appreciate it because of my past experiences. 10 years ago I lived in Chicago's boyztown, first job out of college, and was into the gym-bar-beautiful men scene. And it was really fun, but when I started to reach 30 I found myself saying, “is this all there is?”. I still find I am attracted to the hot guys at the gym, but the key difference is that I no longer have any desire to act on that attraction. I guess that’s the bottom line: When you are in a really great relationship that you value (thanks in part to your past experiences) you just don’t have the desire to screw around, at least I don't. Personally, I cannot understand "open relationships" seems to me something is not being fulfilled somewhere... oh yea, The “white picket fence theory” is out there and is not just a theory, its real and is really rewarding. It takes a lot of work…but it is better than all the pretty guys in boyztown combined!

I think you have to get it out in the open and agree with your 'partner' up front...is this a one night stand, friends, or are we trying to be monog. Two things to remember, you could hurt someone's feelings and not realise it, think about it. Also, how do we want to be when we are in our 60's for example, think about what kind of close relationship you would like to have then...if all you had all your life was one night stands that would be sad.

Wow. This thread and all its responses give me a little bit of hope.

I've known a few couples in long-term, open relationships. I guess it works for them, but I kind of feel that one-half of the couple always seems to be having a bit more fun while the other half stays at home and puts up with it. But, hey, if it works for them, who am I to judge?

I've got a couple of friends in Oakland and their rule is that they always "play" together. Surprisingly, they have no problem finding a third party. (Okay, I'm not at all surprised.) They've been together nearly 20 years.

For the most part, I see open relationships as a convenient "escape clause." It's an easy way out whenever things get tough or when you just feel like f*cking someone else.

I'll take trust instead.

And there's nothing wrong with physical beauty. God knows you've got to be attracted to your partner. Just don't be a dick who always goes after good looking ass****s and then constantly complains, "Why are guys so mean?"

And if you want monogamy, by all means be honest about it when your relationship starts to turn serious. If your potential new bf wants an open relationship and you don't, it will definitely end in heartache for you. He won't change. He won't "get it out of his system." And you'll just get jealous and even more insecure, and it will affect your future relationships.

My one relationship, we were totally monogamous. I hadn't been with anyone before him, so I never had that so-called "sowing wild oats" period. And haven't been with anyone since, so I still haven't had it, dammit....

If I am in love, I want monogamy. Other than that, do what feels good if you're not hurting anyone.

Never been a fan of the rainbow that has come to symbolize our disconnected sense of "community." But I think it is a great way to illustrate that the gay subsulture consists of so many different elements. Gay or Lesbian, Bears and Circuit Queens, Transvestites and Cross-gendered, Monogamous and Open.
I shudder to think that there should be any "one way" that people should view how they live their lives.
All that matters is the continuing saga of searching out for that one person that is completely and totally after the same things as oneself. If that means monogamy, be adamant up front, and be steadfast in one's expectations. And if it means being open, do the courtesy to the other person that such is your aim.
If you are honest enough with yourself to live the life to which you are led, then you have a responsibility to anyone you date to admit that to which you aspire.

Whatever people want to do is up to them. I offer no proclamations on how things should be, save that honesty must be expressed and acted upon by anyone should that trust be violated.

My first "real" relationship (i.e. lasted more than 3 weeks!), we agreed from the get-go to have an understanding. We were both in our mid-20's and the idea of never, ever cheating was absurd so why build the heartache in to the relationship? We had ground rules: never in our apartment, had to inform the other partner ASAP and no repeats. We also did some 3-ways, including this one guy named Joe who was amazing, we begged him to come back again, but he freaked out that we so cool about it; he thought that there must be jealousy issues or something. Uh, no, Joe, you gave great head, that's all. *Sigh* Robert and I broke up because we were idiots.

So, fast forward to the other "real" relationship I've had, the love of my life. We immediately agreed on monogamy and by then I'd done everything I'd wanted, so it was no problem. I f**ked it up and he's in San Francisco with a great guy. *Sigh*

I've known couples who after 5 or 7 or whatever years decide for a change in status. As long as there's communication and agreement, fine. I know a couple who really should open the relationship up (one partner has a very low sex drive, the other is a horndog) but they are so insecure and jealous (the mere looking at another guy on the street brings tension) that it's not viable for them. I just don't think that the heterosexual model is all that viable as their divorce/infidelity rates indicate. I've met more than a few couples that have varying degrees of "understandings" and the reality is that without them, they'd have probably broken up; the open relationship doesn't detract from the primary relationship. No couple is the same and as long as there's honesty and forthright discussion including clear discussion of ground rules, whatever form a relationship takes is fine.

For the record, I'm an old-fashioned kinda guy who'd love to meet one man and live out the rest of my days in marital bliss. Just can't seem to find that baseball lovin' opera queen who looks like Jim Thome!

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

Well said, guys. It seems most agree monogramous relationships are the way to go. My one and only relationship with a guy mirrored Joes on one account, I was naive and innocent when I met him and we were together for approximately 5 year until I found out he was being a little extra friendly with a couple of friends. I promptly went about seducing a mutual "straight" friend which threw the bf into spasms, once my goal was achieved, I quietly walked away from all of them. The straight friend would have nothing to do with me, the (ex) called ocassionally but I wouldn't play into his sweet talk. It took almost three years to get over that stuff, then the hair came down and the party began. New life, new friends.
My friends range from guys that have been in relationships 20+ years, another couple 15+, lesbian couple 4+, my two running buddies are single and verbally very happy about their situation. Me, after several year of "sowing oats" I'm on the down side of it all and worn out from the partying every weekend. It's all out of the system and would like to meet someone special but it's difficult to stop the cycle, the easy sex, instant gratification. How does one stop that merry-go-round?
The guy in the 20+ relationship stayed with me a few nights while his partner went out of town. This guy told me it had been many years, way many years, since they slept together (the partner isn't well), to me it sounded like an elderly couple, the fellow is only 49 or 50. He wanted me to hook him up so he could get laid. I did. As much of a traditionalist as I am, I felt he was due, he has been taking care of his partner both physcially, emotionally and finacially since the early 80s. But it's also a "grass is greener" thing, he in a time tested relationship wanting to taste a little of my wild, no limits, lifestyle. All the while I would give almost anything to come home to someone I loved and cared about, snuggle up to a warm familiar body, sex is great but really nothing at all, please, just beat off and roll over. What was your name?

So if you have all the freedom to have sex with different men, what the heck is the point of having a relationship? Relationship is about trust and commitment. If ya can't commit, then enjoy your single-blessedness.

Open relationship, if there's such a thing, is ridiculous; a candy-coated "bit on the side"!

I am in a 14 yr relationship. I am 34! He is 40!

We have had an open relationship for about 4 yrs. I have never done anything....until last night! Which is why I think this is wierd this post came up!

I am struggling with the guilt!!!! That is all I will say. I don't think I will ever do it again.

We have an open but "we don't talk about it" deal. I know he has done things, but it is not me, and I feel so guilty! I will NEVER do it again....unless it is Harrison Ford or someone like that!!!

My suggestion.....don't do it!

Hey Jim Allen , when you find that "baseball-lovin opera queen who looks like Jim Thome", ask him if he has a baseball-loving buddy who loves broadway musicals and good books and looks like clay bellinger...

i'd be very appreciative...<g>

CatcherInNY, hee! Hmmm, maybe Clay's single?

PacerPride, I'm sort of confused. If you and your partner have an "understanding" why are you feeling guilty, esp. since he's dabbled? Might I suggest that it might be time to discuss the parameters with your partner, it sounds like you might want a monogamous relationship. But are you afraid he'll walk if you push it?

Sorry. This Dear Abby moment was brought to you by......

I know personally that it's such a tough topic to discuss. I've been in situations where I've been dating someone for a little while--say a month--and he casually mentions that he had sex with someone else. I went in to a tizzy and acted like the "betrayed little housewife" (tm Brian from Queer as Folk after Michael's BF was caught cheating) when in reality, we'd never made an exclusivity agreement, hadn't even discussed it. I just assumed we were married after a month and that we were going to only sleep with each other. Uh, no. Presumptuous much?

I think the key is honesty and sharing your true feelings. It doesn't do to say one thing ("I only want YOU, Oh Love Of My Life") while thinking another ("God the guy at the supermarket was hot! How can I do it so my BF doesn't find out?").

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

[quote]Originally posted by CatcherInNY:
it's been a long day...i may not be communicating very well <g>

---

au contrare mon ami, you communicate very well. I *have* to compliment you on some very vivid, beautiful thoughts.

(I noticed on another post the bemoaning of these *silly* threads, but I think it's important to discuss what's on your mind to clarify these issues, even if it might be your second or third time through it,)

that said, it's very heartening to see you guys come out in favor, for the most part, for monogamy, and as sparty on noted, the white picket fence.

sparty on: I think it's bold of you to speak honestly, and clearly, and may I point out -- you're already changing! when you verbalize the thoughts about wanting to move past what you know to be inconsistencies in your thought process, you are making a change even as you speak. so give yourself a pat on the back, because you'll get there. furthermore, may I compliment you on the change in your tone -- you really seem to be making an effort to be clear and direct, and sensitive to others. rock on.

pacerpride: I have to echo the advice you've already recieved here: discuss this with your bf and get it clear that you don't want the open relationship. Have no fear! It seems to me that you didn't want it in the first place, since you never pursued it, and felt horribly guilty about it once you did. If after you have that confab with him and he feels he can't comply, then say, "have at it," and go find yourself a new man. you need to be true to yourself first and foremost.

alrighty friends, now *I* feel like Miss Lonelyhearts!

On this subject, I can only speak about my experiences. I have been in monogamous relationships and open relationships, and I have been happier in open relationships.

I know I can share spiritual intimacy with one person while having physical relationships with other people.

What is sad is that society has attached a certain importance to remaining faithful to your partner, when in fact, it may be an irrelevant issue.

Well, in the case of gay men, monogamy *may* be irrelevant in the sense that the major reason for it in hetero relationships is to keep the babies comin' and provide a stable home life for them when they are born.

I know that there's a gayby boom, sort of, and I know some gay men are fathers from hetero unions, but for the most part, kids are not a factor for most gay men.

And I think the idea that one person is going to fill all our relationship needs is, well, a little bit of Harlequin Romance ideal, I think. Though, as I indicated previously, one that I buy in to completely. I just think that one of the points of the Gay Liberation Movement in the early 70's that I agree with was that there's myriad forms of relationships and that a possibly outdated heterosexual model (being based on a property transaction model and possibly unrealistic to boot) was not the only way.

My right hand has never been unfaithful to me. We've been together since I was a teenager (he's a cradle-robber, ya know). He has never let me down.
Our ceremony is in June!

Thanks for the advice. I think I am getting over it! Lets just say ......it may have been the only time I done it, but I went "wild". And I am just not used to it!

Anyways, thanks! It made me feel better just getting it out and the advice you gave helped also!

AU Tiger.. we have the same lover.. !
But does your left hand know what the right one is doing??

Happy Anniversary!!

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: CowboysHskrFan ]

I'm right-handed, but my left hand has always been my buddy...

Uh, Au Tiger--you're sure your right hand is faithful to you. It never strokes anybody else?

BLLECCHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Don't even consider it a boyfriend or a relationship, if you're going to have sex with others. I'm not a prude but if you're going to sleep around then all you have is a "roomate that you sleep with alot." Sure it may be fun but all you're doing is looking for immediate satisfaction and not building on the relationship. Eventually there will be jealousy. Just say you're single then, don't lie and say you have a boyfriend which implies commitment and trust ! Hetero couples without kids don't cheat all the time either, so just because you don't have children doesn't mean it's ok to cheat.

[quote]Originally posted by JC:
Uh, Au Tiger--you're sure your right hand is faithful to you. It never strokes anybody else?

---

My right hand and I have a completely open relationship...but he has yet to indudge himself!

I've been with the same guy since I was 20 (seven years next week), but I still have to wonder why so many guys seem to equate "buidling a relationship" with "monogamy." Why does not having sex with other people mean you're closer to the one you are with? It doesn't.

My guy and I have so much more in common than sex and are so much more important to each other than just that. If we were to f**k around with other guys, it wouldn't mean that we still weren't best friends who had built a life together and would take a bullet for the other. It would mean we were just having sex with other guys for pleasure.

A real relationship is built on a lot of things. I believe the reason that most between gay men don't work is that they are built only on the fantasy of wanting the monogamous ideal -- two guys who are looking for the ideal "LTR" (my least favorite online acronym -- so trivial) meet, like each other, and think "We're both looking for something long-term, so why don't we go into this dating relationship as if it will turn into marriage." The relationship is built almost solely on the foundation of the idea of wanting a relationship isn't going to work.

Note that I'm not saying guys can't be monogramous or that they shouldn't. I'm just saying that everyone has to work things out their own way. Judging others harshly for their "openness" is like judging others for their orientation. They are doing what works for them, and as long as it isn't hurting you, leave them alone.

[ January 27, 2002: Message edited by: MCMikeNamara ]

[quote]Originally posted by sparty on:
Currently I am not satisfied with a average looking guy that is extremely nice and has a great personality, ......

---

Hey its your life - but I hope that the average guy you talked about (that is extremely nice and has a great personality) finds someone else ASAP- cuz he deserves someone better and more mature than you.

If you really love someone, why do you need to trust them?

Trust implies needs and conditions within a relationship. It may be a utopian ideal, but shouldn't we all strive for unconditional love - stripped of all our egos and insecurities?

Think about it. If you really love someone unconditionally, you don't place any requirements on them. You don't even need them to love you back. THERE'S NOTHING IN THE WORLD THAT CAN MAKE YOU STOP LOVING THEM.

When we require a partner to be monogamous, what are we saying? "I'm insecure and I feel even more so if you don't devote all your attention to me, and me alone." Is that true love? It's certainly true need. I'm not saying relationships should be monogamous or not, but I think the decision does speak volumes to what the relationship is based on: love or need.

I don't mean to imply that I have achieved this kind of unconditional love in a relationship. I haven't. But as difficult as it is to get there, I hold out hope that I can someday.

[quote]Originally posted by Jupiter:
It may be a utopian ideal, but shouldn't we all strive for unconditional love - stripped of all our egos and insecurities?

---

I know this will sound dismissive, but it really isn't meant to be.
If you want unconditional love, get a dog.
A primary romantic relationship is not about unconditional love. It's about building a life together. Even without the issue of sex, if you are living with another person you have to be able to trust, or you're going to wind up without a bank account, furniture or your CD collection.
As for sex, it is reasonable to say that in a primary romanitic relationship one expects exclusivity. It is not a matter of selfish insecurity. Trust is a two way street. One not only gives trust to a partner, but one is expected to be trustworthy as well.

It's great to hear so many different views. This is a topic that always brings up a lot of emotion and strong opinion whether online or amongst friends.

I think part of being gay is being able to define what a relationship is...and yet, we've all been raised by heterosexuals and only have that model within our conditioning...there's a conflict right there....

By and large, any two people in a relationship need to define their parameters...and this is where communication and trust play such a large part...some people want security, some people want communion and challenge, some people want kids...it's all about the specific relationship and what they want together....

I know long term couples who play all the time and are still very much in love, but it's easy to see that partying has a lot to do with their outside "play"...I know long term couples who aren't interested in outside stuff and who are very happy also, and have built in great creativity to their relationship...

For me to find myself in the cool house with the cool white picket fence, there will have to be something pretty unique and committed and magical going on inside...and we'll have to have an apartment in Paris as well...

I've had one monogamous relationship, which also was my only relationship. It lasted for 12 years. He is and always will be the one person that I truly love. He has a girlfriend now.

It's been about 2 1/2 years now and I just can't picture myself being close enough to anyone (with Vince Carter being the exception) who I could care enough about to be with at all. I guess I could never do the open relationship thing. It's either all or nothing. It's just my opinion, but I can't see how anyone can be in love and say that they are in an open relationship. I’ve always figured that if you are really in love, that other person would be giving you everything you ever needed. To have an agreement that you can sleep around really seems to make the "relationship" into just one of many sexual escapades.

[quote]Originally posted by jqueer:


A primary romantic relationship is not about unconditional love. It's about building a life together. Even without the issue of sex, if you are living with another person you have to be able to trust, or you're going to wind up without a bank account, furniture or your CD collection.

---

We could all learn alot from dogs. Everyone has their own definition of a meaningful/successful relationship. The one you described seems based on needs and posessions rather than love, and that was the point I was making. Why are unconditional love and a life built together mutually exclusive? I can easily replace money, furniture and CDs - love is much harder to find - and keep.

to me, unconditional love implies being blind. when you love someone "unconditionally" you turn a blind eye to the things they might do that might test your "unconditional" love. then it becomes "conditional" when it pisses you off, right?

I have to say I agree with JQueer; get a dog if you want to be in that kind of a relationship (except Westies, because they always hold you accountable).

So how does it work exactly? I honestly don't know. My M.O.D. is to trust someone until they give me a reason not to trust them. Then forgive them if necessary. THEN, the tricky part is to retain the knowledge of their doings without letting it be destructive. In other words: "forgive and forget" is a foolish notion
that has no place in the lexicon of imagination.

I guess what I'm saying is that to me, true love is when you allow an individual the freedom to make mistakes. Furthermore, you have to allow for periods of reassessment -- is this working for you? is this working for me? where do we go from here? that kind of thing.

(edited to give credit where credit is due)

[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: smrobbins65 ]

I don't think it's reasonable to say that just because someone has sex with other people that they're not in a committed relationship. That seems to reduce commitment to a physical relationship...if two people are choosing to buy a house together, and making retirement plans together, that indicates a lot more commitment to me than whether they're exclusively monogamous.

That said, I don't know if an open relationship would work for me. I think I'd be afraid that my partner was unsatisfied, and was still looking around to replace me. But I recognize that's my own insecurity...actually, I would say an open relationship requires more trust, not less.

I can sort of agree with you JC on that in theory...Sometimes Monogamy is about insecurity and lack of self-worth, and sometimes being a slut is about insecurity and lack of self-worth. It really depends on the person..

I do think that a committment that includes monogamy is very powerful spiritually especially as time goes by. But I also think that sometimes our spirits need play and new stimulation..Maybe it becomes about where to look for that stimulation and with whom..

IMHO,open relationships are just anothewr way for gay men to have their cake and eat it to. In a loving relationship intimacy is the most prized possession. It brings us closer to each other and closer to ourselves. true intimacy strips away the layers that we use each day to hide ourselves and reveals the naked person underneath, that is where the treasure is, good or bad. Screwing every tom dick and harry in the name of freedom only serves to show that we as gay men really dont know the meaning of true love and commitment and sacrifice. And it shows. Relationships are not all flowers and sunshine, they can be boring at times and confining, irritating, and constant work. but they are also loving, and joyous, secure. That emotional connection is something that you cant find anywhere else because the true physical intimacy is what brings it to another level.

Wow, I could really get onto a soapbox with this thread (and probably have before). I know its probably genetic. Men are by nature supposed to "spread their seed". Women, in general, keep this tendency in check by most often demanding monogamy in a relationship. But, when you get two men together, there is nothing to hold back nature.

I am continually amazed that gay men (almost all that I have ever met), instantly put a label on you from the moment they see you or meet you. Because you "look" a certain way or "act" a certain way you are "supposed" to be a certain type of person.

Very few men want to know the heart inside another man. Most men think sex first and then whatever they are in the mood for second. I'm not saying looks don't count, there has to be some level of physical attraction for two guys to want to get together; but, believe it or not, there are some of us out here who put more value on personality, friendship, emotional connection, and yes, monogamy, than we do on looks or getting your rocks off.

Prime example: Just last night I spoke with a guy on the phone for the first time. We had met through a dating service and exchanged a couple e-mails. I made it clear in my profile that I was looking for a personality more than a "look". But the second we get on the phone all he wants to talk about are physical characteristics. I still plan on meeting this guy, but honestly, he already has a strike against him.

I guess the bottom line is this: know your date! Don't assume that everyone in the gay world wants to have sex with everyone else. Don't assume that if a guy is in a relationship it must be for three ways too. Don't assume that if a guy says he wants to be friends that he "really" just wants sex. I know it may be a foreign (or alien?) concept, but there are gay guys out there who want to date, find friendship, romance, and eventually a monogamous long term relationship. In that order!

Sheesh, I think I better climb down off the soapbox now....

To be perfectly honest, I can't imagine being in a monogamous relationship no matter how much I loved that person. I just cannot have sex with the same person over and over again. I lose interest quickly.

My lover and I have been together for about 5 years now and we are in an open relatioship. We separate sex from emotion and everything works out. We view sex as just that...sex.

I see sex as something that I enjoy doing, just like I enjoy running, playing tennis, eating out, travelling, going to the movies, etc. But I don't want to run the same route all the time, I don't want to play tennis against the same person all the time, I don't want to eat at the same restaurant all the time, I don't want to travel to the same city every year, and I don't want to see the same movie every weekend, etc. So I definitely don't want to be having sex with the same person!

I guess this makes me sound like a shallow, selfish, and insensitive person, but at least I am being honest and real.

I wouldn't want to meet him. If all he cares about is the physical part, no matter how much you keep trying to steer the conversation to other things, either he is much too willing to ignore the profile or he's just plain stupid.

We are meeting tomorrow. He called me again tonight and this time he was a lot better. We spent a lot of time talking about softball and south Florida. He must have got the idea though, because at one point he did start talking about being "attracted to me", but he started by saying he "I hope you don't mind" or something like that.

I'm not beyond giving people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he's just anxious to meet me, and if that's all it is then its a good thing.

I've been in the gay world long enough to know what the state of affairs is like out there. But luckily.... I'm still attractive enough that I can be considered one of the "hot guys" at the gym... so if I wanted to play around and not have a committed monogamous rerlationship, I could....

But .... (and I know it's not for everyone here and if you guys can agree to sleep with others, I guess that's your biz).... But I'm just not built that way....

when I date someone ... and I don't mean from the first date... But when I start seeing someone seriously (whether he's officially my boyfriend or no) I can't see someone else.... I have no desire to.
For me to wanna kiss another man when I'm serious about my man would be like asking me to makeout with a woman. I just don't feel it.

You guys are right. Monogamy isn't for everyone. But for me, monogamy is a fundamental part of a relationship.

having said that... I just a month ago broke up with my boyfriend of a year and a half.

The last month of our relationship, we agreed to see other people if we wanted to. To have an open relationship. I suggested it as a way for him to feel "less pressured" by me and he agreed to it after a couple of days.

Did I really want to see other people? No. and he didn't either. Then why did I bring it up? I didn't tell him at the time.... but it was a way for me to prepare for leaving him.
I guess I couldn't do it all at once and probably was also grasping at straws to try to save the relationship.

But that stage allowed me to start untangling myself from him emotionally and made it somewhat easier to have the "I don't wanna see you anymore" speech.

anyway.... to repeat... for this fag, an open relationship is a non-existent one.

[ February 29, 2004, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: ung ]

I've been in both types of relationships; each were appropriate for where I was emotionally at the time. At 27, and just a few years out of the closet, to have been in a monogamous relationship with my horn-dog boyfriend would have been absurd. We recognized it as such, and acted accordingly. We had an "understanding" and since it was out in the open it took away a lot of the "forbidden fruit" aspect of it. We played with others but it didn't really impact our relationship. We broke up with each other because we'd run out of things to say to each other. Monogamy would not have changed that; it would have made it worse, a prison.

When I was dating the Love of My Love, there was no question of being in an open relationship. Neither of us wanted it, so it was never an issue.

I've been in monogamous relationships and I've been in orgies of 30 guys, blowing as many of 'em as I could. It's not an either/or thing; it's what is appropriate for each person at that particular time in their lives. We don't have to make the same mistakes heteros do, you know.

Once again proving why you are one of my favorite OUTSPORTS posters.