Does it bother you as much as it does me that two women engaged in sexual activity is not looked down on by society? It seems very acceptable to everyone. It's all over Playboy magazine. It's all over wrestling programs. But why is it not considered gay and shunned down upon? Instead it's used as a way to get straight men more horny. And I never hear women's groups calling women "fag" or "gay". I guess it must be because two men together sexually does not turn straight women on.
On the Jerry Springer Show when two women are getting it on, the audience cheers on. When two men get it on, the entire audience boos and laughs. Yeah I know the Jerry Springer Show shouldn't be used as an example but in reality, this is the way it is in society. It just bothers me. That's all.
[ February 06, 2004, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: amazin12 ]
Full Version: How come two women together isn't gay?
Lesbians in the US experience a hell of a lot of discrimination, especially if they're not young, thin, blond, big-breasted, wealthy lesbians, and even then, they still can catch hell, lose their children, be fired from their jobs, and so on. Poor, working-class lesbians of color especially really have a hard time, and no one is out there claiming that they're not gay. (One was bashed to death in Newark just a few months ago.)
Female same-sex behavior, especially if it involves two femme women, may excite straight men, but that says more about the men than about whether the women are lesbians or not. Conflating same-sex behavior and identity is a problem whether you're talking about lesbians or gay men; not all men who have sex with other men are gay, or even bisexual. And women who have sex with each other for pay very well may not be lesbians; it could easily be an economic issue.
Plus, true homophobes don't like to see ANY same-sex behavior, whether it's lesbian or bisexual love between women, or even a pseudo-lesbian performance like the one that Britney-Madonna-Cristina served up on MTV. They sure in the hell don't want lesbians OR gay men to have the right to marry--anywhere, whether it's Massachusetts, Ohio, Georgia, the Netherlands, Canada, Belgium, you name it.
[ February 06, 2004, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
Female same-sex behavior, especially if it involves two femme women, may excite straight men, but that says more about the men than about whether the women are lesbians or not. Conflating same-sex behavior and identity is a problem whether you're talking about lesbians or gay men; not all men who have sex with other men are gay, or even bisexual. And women who have sex with each other for pay very well may not be lesbians; it could easily be an economic issue.
Plus, true homophobes don't like to see ANY same-sex behavior, whether it's lesbian or bisexual love between women, or even a pseudo-lesbian performance like the one that Britney-Madonna-Cristina served up on MTV. They sure in the hell don't want lesbians OR gay men to have the right to marry--anywhere, whether it's Massachusetts, Ohio, Georgia, the Netherlands, Canada, Belgium, you name it.
[ February 06, 2004, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
Well said, fantomas. I think that it's especially true about lesbians who don't fit the "lipstick lesbian" image that straight men want to see.
I agree with amazin that it is annoying but we have to be realistic: this country is run by straight men and what straight men want to see is woman-on-woman action. It's gotten to the point where even straight women admit that it's more preferable to see women kiss than men kiss. I don't think it's an intentional prejudice but something that's been programmed into all of us that women are sexual objects. I think Gatorjamie might agree with me. Also, I wouldn't put too much stock into Jerry Springer. Please remember, that the guys in the audience are not only into lipstick lesbians making out in front of them but are also think about the next keg party and football game! Ah well.
I agree with amazin that it is annoying but we have to be realistic: this country is run by straight men and what straight men want to see is woman-on-woman action. It's gotten to the point where even straight women admit that it's more preferable to see women kiss than men kiss. I don't think it's an intentional prejudice but something that's been programmed into all of us that women are sexual objects. I think Gatorjamie might agree with me. Also, I wouldn't put too much stock into Jerry Springer. Please remember, that the guys in the audience are not only into lipstick lesbians making out in front of them but are also think about the next keg party and football game! Ah well.
Yep, fan and Terry, you are both absolutely right (as usual). wink
The core of the straight-guy lust for femme-on-femme action is their not-so-secret fantasy that they'll be invited to join in, at which time the respective femmes suddenly cease to remember that the other is in the room and turn all their attention on him. Riiiight.
At my house, girl-on-girl is gay-gay-gay, but I doubt any straight guy wants to see a coupla middle-aged chicks gettin it on. Fine by me!
gj
p.s. FWIW, I think the guy-on-guy scenes on QAF and the str8 scenes in The L-Word are hot. It's not because I want to join in, and it's certainly not because I wish I were one of them. They're just hot because of the passion that the actors express toward each other.
[ February 06, 2004, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: GatorJamie ]
The core of the straight-guy lust for femme-on-femme action is their not-so-secret fantasy that they'll be invited to join in, at which time the respective femmes suddenly cease to remember that the other is in the room and turn all their attention on him. Riiiight.
At my house, girl-on-girl is gay-gay-gay, but I doubt any straight guy wants to see a coupla middle-aged chicks gettin it on. Fine by me!
gj
p.s. FWIW, I think the guy-on-guy scenes on QAF and the str8 scenes in The L-Word are hot. It's not because I want to join in, and it's certainly not because I wish I were one of them. They're just hot because of the passion that the actors express toward each other.
[ February 06, 2004, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: GatorJamie ]
Okay, not to be controversial or anything, but one of my favorite writers, Florence King (who is at least bisexual herself) once threw out this theory (I'm paraphrasing here): Lesbian sex doesn't scare people so much because women don't have to be visibly aroused to have sex with a man and thus procreate. To make a baby, a woman, even a lesbian, can basically just show up, whereas a guy has to be attracted, get an erection, ejaculate, etc. Thus men being attracted to men, and thus man-on-man sex, is (somewhere in people's minds) a much greater threat to the future of the species, so to speak, than chicks getting it on.
Catfight!!!!! (I'm in a very Seinfeld mood this morning.)
[ February 06, 2004, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: William1865 ]
Catfight!!!!! (I'm in a very Seinfeld mood this morning.)
[ February 06, 2004, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: William1865 ]
Well, I do love my Miss King. Interesting theory. I personally think that woman-to-woman sex (real sex, not the porno kind with spike heels and Lee Press-On nails - ouch) is scary because once Joe Six-Pack realizes that the girls really truly do not want him or need him to get off, and that his puerile fantasy won't come true, he gets pissed.
Not to sound anti-male or anything (and you guys know I loves me my boys), but it just cuts to the self-centeredness of the average male.
How's that for controversy?
Not to sound anti-male or anything (and you guys know I loves me my boys), but it just cuts to the self-centeredness of the average male.
How's that for controversy?
I actually know quite a few women who are turned on by guy on guy sex. I was kinda shocked by two friends of mine who wanted to hide in the closet and watch(it's funny what women will talk about over a couple of beers or a glass or three of wine) the bf and I get it on.
And another friend has actually rented gay porn, because and I quote her "the guys are way hotter than the ones in straight porn".
oh yeah and then there was the time a group of women friends wanted me to take them to the gay strip club. Now that was a wild night. I have never seen a wad of bills like these girls had that night! wink
And another friend has actually rented gay porn, because and I quote her "the guys are way hotter than the ones in straight porn".
oh yeah and then there was the time a group of women friends wanted me to take them to the gay strip club. Now that was a wild night. I have never seen a wad of bills like these girls had that night! wink
QUOTE
TonkaManOR:
I have never seen a wad of bills like these girls had that night! wink
Huh-huh-huh. You said wad.
I have never seen a wad of bills like these girls had that night! wink
QUOTE
GatorJamie:
I personally think that woman-to-woman sex (real sex, not the porno kind with spike heels and Lee Press-On nails - ouch) is scary because once Joe Six-Pack realizes that the girls really truly do not want him or need him to get off, and that his puerile fantasy won't come true, he gets pissed.
That's cool, because we don't need the girls, do we boys? I personally think that woman-to-woman sex (real sex, not the porno kind with spike heels and Lee Press-On nails - ouch) is scary because once Joe Six-Pack realizes that the girls really truly do not want him or need him to get off, and that his puerile fantasy won't come true, he gets pissed.
Heh heh heh...if Joe Six-Pack is feelin' unloved, I'm sure that he could find plenty o' consolation elsewhere...like bobby's house.
After all, the difference between a straight man and a gay man is...what a six pack?
wink
After all, the difference between a straight man and a gay man is...what a six pack?
wink
I have couple lesbian friends who loved gay male porn. The rougher the action, the better for them. They really liked the "talk". I guess the lesbian porn doesn't have that?
From what I've seen on lesbian porn (2 movies) they get into it for the long haul. I remember a scene from one of them where the 2 ladies are going at it and one falls off the bed, and the other one just jumps off the bed with her without missing a beat. I thought that was HOT :confused: Is that wrong?
On the other hand, there a few ladies at my work who would pay to see some hot male action.
Maybe it just depends on the person?
From what I've seen on lesbian porn (2 movies) they get into it for the long haul. I remember a scene from one of them where the 2 ladies are going at it and one falls off the bed, and the other one just jumps off the bed with her without missing a beat. I thought that was HOT :confused: Is that wrong?
On the other hand, there a few ladies at my work who would pay to see some hot male action.
Maybe it just depends on the person?
Slightly intellectual response here -
In many simian populations, female bisexuality is quite common, and in fact an advantage in survival. Females who have sexual relations with other females are more likely to share their food with those same females and their children - a real advantage in times of famine. Thus, females who are bisexual are more attractive to men, and more valuable as mates, because their offspring are more likely to survive.
It is entirely possible that current straight men (and women for that manner) are simply acting on a primordial instinct about the positive nature of female bisexuality - that would certainly account for the attractiveness of femme women getting it on together (not to be stereotypical, but femme women are more likely to be bisexual rather than lesbians) to straight men.
In fact, I have long believed that homosexuality is in fact the inadvertant byproduct of female bisexuality. It seems that male and female homoseuxality have different causes - the birth order effect (the more older brothers you have, the more likely you are to be gay) is only found in men, as is the maternal line effect (the more gay relatives on Mom's side, the more likely a boy is to be gay). I think male homosexuals are created when they receive a gene or genes from their mothers, who are likely bisexual, but female homosexuals are created when a bisexual woman gets a little too much bisexuality (nothing said here is meant perjoritively).
That being said, the cultural dislike of male intimacy is far more likely an effect of sexism in the world than a natural instinct. The worst thing in the world is for a man to be like a woman - particularly a bottom guy (the superior takes on the role of the inferior) so that is why society frowns on male intimacy (hell, when I was 6 my father explained I couldn't kiss him anymore, because that's not what men do).
In many simian populations, female bisexuality is quite common, and in fact an advantage in survival. Females who have sexual relations with other females are more likely to share their food with those same females and their children - a real advantage in times of famine. Thus, females who are bisexual are more attractive to men, and more valuable as mates, because their offspring are more likely to survive.
It is entirely possible that current straight men (and women for that manner) are simply acting on a primordial instinct about the positive nature of female bisexuality - that would certainly account for the attractiveness of femme women getting it on together (not to be stereotypical, but femme women are more likely to be bisexual rather than lesbians) to straight men.
In fact, I have long believed that homosexuality is in fact the inadvertant byproduct of female bisexuality. It seems that male and female homoseuxality have different causes - the birth order effect (the more older brothers you have, the more likely you are to be gay) is only found in men, as is the maternal line effect (the more gay relatives on Mom's side, the more likely a boy is to be gay). I think male homosexuals are created when they receive a gene or genes from their mothers, who are likely bisexual, but female homosexuals are created when a bisexual woman gets a little too much bisexuality (nothing said here is meant perjoritively).
That being said, the cultural dislike of male intimacy is far more likely an effect of sexism in the world than a natural instinct. The worst thing in the world is for a man to be like a woman - particularly a bottom guy (the superior takes on the role of the inferior) so that is why society frowns on male intimacy (hell, when I was 6 my father explained I couldn't kiss him anymore, because that's not what men do).
I agree with Gatorjamie's point about the self - centered male. In my opinion, there is a huge double standard when it comes to two women having sex as oppose to two men. I don't think it's just tolerated either. I think some straight men really like to see two women having sex. Also, they prefer the women to be what they consider to be two good looking women. But when it goes beyond just sex, I mean women having a committed relationship, that's when the interest is gone. It's only the sex they are interested in.
I also think that straight men i general are interested in any kind of sex. My partner and I use to live in an apartment building. There was a gay guy that lived below us who had a lot of sex. We had straight couple friends come over once. Our "noisy neighbor" started having sex and we could not get our straight male friend to pry his ear off of our floor. He was so interested in hearing our neighbor having gay sex, it was very odd. It got to the poiint where his girlfriend began to get irritated.
I also think that straight men i general are interested in any kind of sex. My partner and I use to live in an apartment building. There was a gay guy that lived below us who had a lot of sex. We had straight couple friends come over once. Our "noisy neighbor" started having sex and we could not get our straight male friend to pry his ear off of our floor. He was so interested in hearing our neighbor having gay sex, it was very odd. It got to the poiint where his girlfriend began to get irritated.
CPT, great points, though I believe the biological explanations are still under study. Also, we shouldn't qualify that prudish American society has a problem with male(-male) affection, whereas in many other societies (like southern Italy, in many parts of West Africa, in parts of south Asia, in many Arab societies, among some Native American tribes, etc.), male affection is actively encouraged or looked upon with indifference.
When I was younger I used to flip through "On Our Backs" (or is it "Off Our Backs"?), the lesbian magazine that features explicit sex shots. Most of the women were not lipstick femmes, but hardcore butches, some older, and I found the lesbian sex images really hot. (Actually, this is another story, but when I was in high school I KNEW I was gay when a group of my friends and I were hanging out with this older woman (she was about 40, had two kids and a husband, but hung out with high school boys--go figure) and she ordered "Lesbian Dildo Bondage" for us to watch. They were all into the thin, blonde lesbians getting down, but all I wanted to see the dildo and bondage part!)
I think of myself as 100% homo, but I do find butch lesbians sexy, I find some straight sex hot (like if a bunch of the guys on the Panthers were to get with the top 10 women on the women's tennis tour, I'd watch it), and of course, men having sex, especially if they're gay and enjoying themselves is a turn-on. I don't think a lot of guys would get off on Martina going down on Conchita Martinez (is she the one who's a lesbian), though I find the scenario kind of hot. Speaking of which, wasn't Peakaboob, Janet Jackson, supposed to be heading down the bi road a few years ago? Now she's with that troll Jermaine Dupri... :confused:
[ February 06, 2004, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
When I was younger I used to flip through "On Our Backs" (or is it "Off Our Backs"?), the lesbian magazine that features explicit sex shots. Most of the women were not lipstick femmes, but hardcore butches, some older, and I found the lesbian sex images really hot. (Actually, this is another story, but when I was in high school I KNEW I was gay when a group of my friends and I were hanging out with this older woman (she was about 40, had two kids and a husband, but hung out with high school boys--go figure) and she ordered "Lesbian Dildo Bondage" for us to watch. They were all into the thin, blonde lesbians getting down, but all I wanted to see the dildo and bondage part!)
I think of myself as 100% homo, but I do find butch lesbians sexy, I find some straight sex hot (like if a bunch of the guys on the Panthers were to get with the top 10 women on the women's tennis tour, I'd watch it), and of course, men having sex, especially if they're gay and enjoying themselves is a turn-on. I don't think a lot of guys would get off on Martina going down on Conchita Martinez (is she the one who's a lesbian), though I find the scenario kind of hot. Speaking of which, wasn't Peakaboob, Janet Jackson, supposed to be heading down the bi road a few years ago? Now she's with that troll Jermaine Dupri... :confused:
[ February 06, 2004, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
Great point CPTDoom. It does all come down to sexism. And we have to be the macho superior sex whether we like it or not. We are the plugs. Women are the sockets. And society just doesn't feel comforatable with men being sockets too.
I suppose the average horny straight guy would not be attracted to watching two lesbians who wear men's suits stripping down to have sex.
[ February 06, 2004, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: amazin12 ]
I suppose the average horny straight guy would not be attracted to watching two lesbians who wear men's suits stripping down to have sex.
[ February 06, 2004, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: amazin12 ]
Two things: first, there are VERY WILD straight clubs all over the US and elsewhere. I have been to one in France (out of curiosity), and let me tell you, the men and women were voracious. HBO and Showtime, on their "Real Sex" shows, have featured some of them. There's a hotel in Las Vegas where straights can watch each other having sex, participate in orgies and gangbangs, etc., and it's one of the most popular of these sites anywhere. So don't think it's just gay men who are humping like bunnies at sex clubs. BTW, have you been to a straight sex club?
Second, women dressed in men's clothing can really turn men on. Just recall Marlene Dietrich's famous drag performance in "Blue Angel," that sent both men and women spinning; or Madonna's performances in male drag that got men hot. Again, if the women are femmy, attractive to straight men, and if they're getting it on, in whatever (nuns' habits, Catholic schoolgirl uniforms, dressed as truckdrivers, etc.) and there's the idea that the guy could join in and be serviced, he'd probably go for it.
[ February 07, 2004, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
Second, women dressed in men's clothing can really turn men on. Just recall Marlene Dietrich's famous drag performance in "Blue Angel," that sent both men and women spinning; or Madonna's performances in male drag that got men hot. Again, if the women are femmy, attractive to straight men, and if they're getting it on, in whatever (nuns' habits, Catholic schoolgirl uniforms, dressed as truckdrivers, etc.) and there's the idea that the guy could join in and be serviced, he'd probably go for it.
[ February 07, 2004, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: fantomas ]
I agree with all of the points presented here. Fantomas, you are right about men wanting to join in and get serviced. I also think that it also plays into the fact that there are two beavers instead of one. You get to sample a little of this one, then sample a little of this one.
Also, if there are two women then when the guy gets off, the two women can take up the slack and get each other off without the guy having to do a thing, but go to sleep.
Also, if there are two women then when the guy gets off, the two women can take up the slack and get each other off without the guy having to do a thing, but go to sleep.
Somewhere I read where straight men's disdain of gay men stems from misogyny. That is, they see gay men as taking the "female" role in sex (giving blow jobs, receiving anal), behaving in a female manner, and being weak and ineffective ("throws like a girl")... which is how men view women. Gay men are traitors to the male cause, because they choose to be like 'inferior' women. And thus they hate us... because we're less than men, in their eyes.
Lesbians are threatening because they show that women don't really need men.
But 'lesbian sex' in straight porn is nothing more than straight women having girl-on-girl sex. And it has the advantage of taking the male actor out of the picture, so that the viewer can imagine himself in the scenario... and he doesn't have to worry about being turned on by the guy and having a 'homo moment,' as Margaret Cho calls it.
Lesbians are threatening because they show that women don't really need men.
But 'lesbian sex' in straight porn is nothing more than straight women having girl-on-girl sex. And it has the advantage of taking the male actor out of the picture, so that the viewer can imagine himself in the scenario... and he doesn't have to worry about being turned on by the guy and having a 'homo moment,' as Margaret Cho calls it.
Maybe male homosexuality is a threat to "straight" males because men are already a single-use artifact in evolution. Women only need them for insemination, after that she can perpetuate the species on her on. That would be especially true now with women allowed to be the breadwinner in the open (something they have often done in the background for eons).
Male homosexuality would eliminate the usefulness of males as a sex object that women need full-time. That might scare the heck out of weak egos.
Male homosexuality would eliminate the usefulness of males as a sex object that women need full-time. That might scare the heck out of weak egos.
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