http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7104489/

This is why I strongly advocate that gay people learn how to use firearms and get concealed carry licenses in their states.

There is absolutely no need whatsoever for this kind of violence to occur. Self defense is as important a right as equal marriage rights.

If you are gay, you should go to http://www.pinkpistols.org and http://www.nra.org for some good information. Find a local chapter of the Pink Pistols in your area and go out on a shoot with them. The NRA has some of the best firearms safety and self defense classes available and will probably also have one in your area.

Don't be a victim like the guy in this story. There's absolutely no need for it. Had he been carrying concealed he would have been able to defend himself and these little pukes would have been on the run instead of nearly beating him to death.

This is a horrible tale, and will not the be the last we hear of, not as long as politicians, entertainers and "religious" leaders continue to believe that verbal bashing of gay people is completely fine.

At a pragmatic level, this is not really true. Having been the victim of a violent assault last year I can tell you I didn't have time or wits to get my cell phone out, much less fire a weapon. Most likely, the only result in my case would have been my getting shot.

An assault typically comes out of the blue, when one is least expecting it, so there is little, if any, time to respond. A weapon would be at best useless, at worst it would exacerbate the situation.

You mean like you were bashing Jeff Gannon on another thread? For committing the crime of being a gay man who doesn't agree with your personal political agenda? Like that?

I believe the crime he committed was prostitution. The rest of the bashing has been reserved for the White House which appears to have used a whore for a number of unsavory ends, not mention means.

I assume you are referring to the silly "hate crimes" laws that leftist gays like yourself endorse?

They are stupid, pointless and don't EVER save anybody's life. Period.

They are also a violation of free speech and a move toward thought control by the state. Contrary to what you believe, hate is a natural human emotion - the idea that you would endorse "laws" that amount to thought control is quite chilling to me.

We already have laws that stop ACTING ON HATE. We do not need Orwellian "hate crimes" laws that attempt to create protected classes.

Nor do we need the state to attempt to destroy freedom of speech in the name of "safety."

Also, please prove your comment about firearms "exacerbating" the situation and being "useless." All of the statistics related to firearms use for protection indicate a completely different story.

I suspect that your leftist politics are really at the root of your comments. You're entitled to them but please don't spread misinformation and lies about the value of firearms. Thanks.

Martian madness, truly, I do not want to live the way you advocate. I am genetically predisposed to be a very good shot. My experience with firearms thus far have taught me that.
The same reflexes that wield the handgun, are the same ones that downhill at 50mph on a bicycle. In this body, the adrenalin and reflexes do not give this consciousness a chance to premeditate. So I do not carry any weapons other than a bicycle U-lock or a skateboard. When it goes down, survival switches the brain to self-preservation. It is innate in humans. However, with our circumventing natural selection in several ways, we need to take this reaction off-line. Overcrowding creates conflicts with these instincts.
Hand-to-hand combat is more defensible in court. It is more believable if you have some personal injury also.
As mentioned earlier, if you have time to react, a handgun is likely too slow. If you pull your gun you need to commit to it in that instant. Otherwise it will be used against you. If you are within arms reach, the gun isn't very intimidating to someone with experience in defeating it.

Dude, just beat them with your man-purse

Seeing as how I was thinking about relocating to New Mexico, it is a good think I do not even remotely look stereo-typically gay. Opinions on that may vary though.

I know some cool folks in Santa Fe and Alburqurque. There are some interesting social and political rifts in that state. The "Land of Enchantment" is it?

He was ASSAULTED! He lived through it! Were YOU ever attacked suddenly on the street? If not, then shut the f**k up with your pathetic right-wing bullshit.

Please prove your comments about firearms being useful. Provide a direct link to the statistics you describe.

Yeah, right. The man was a plagiarizing prostitute, who was advertising his services "up to a week ago" and trying to sell his porn sites for "$7500.00" a week ago. Most homosexuals have sex with others for free, as do most people on this country, don't they (we)? And gay or not, I thought the GOP was the party railing about morals and the dangers of gay marriage. Go figure.

Senator Thune denies ties to male prostitute

As for Madmartian's brain ray, let's say this guy--God bless him--was carrying a firearm. If someone, based on the sole fact that he perceives a person to be homosexual, runs up behind the perceived homo person and smashes the perceived homo person over the head with a lead pipe or baseball bat or whatever blunt weapon (truncheon, cudgel, tire iron, etc.), or shoots the perceived homo person dead before he can draw his weapon, the gun might not do much good. But hey, if you're in a state that allows firearms, and you're a homo person or person who might be perceived as homo, and you really want to carry a legal firearm, be my guest. That still doesn't address the issue of someone targeting you specifically because he thinks you're homo and wants to harm you--kill you. The two things are separate issues.

Yes, lots of people are "angry"--they're seething with rage--but despite that, you do NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ACT ON IT AND INJURE AND KILL OTHER PEOPLE, whether they are the crippled husband and elderly mother of a federal judge in Chicago, or a Northwestern basketball coach jogging through Evanston, or hundreds of people in an Oklahoma Federal building, or over 3,000 people in two New York City towers, or a homosexual man in Alabama, or a Haitian immigrant in New York City. Spew your anger and hate all you want, consort with your oppressors, but seriously, you cannot attack and kill people just because you dislike something about them. In this society. In Stalin's Russia, in Weimar and Nazi Germany, in Pol Pot's Kampuchea, etc., yes. But not in the USA.

In this society people do NOT have the carte blanche to harm people because of their race, religion, ethnicity, sexuality, and so on, or a warped perception or hatred or misplaced anger or whatever of any of the above. Whether said intended victims are carrying firearms and can draw as quickly as Jesse James, or not.

[ March 06, 2005, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: fantomas ]

Thanks for the tip, but I think I'll take my chances.

Why do I feel like I'm in an episode from last year's QAF? You know, when Justin decided he was all butch and became a vigilante?

Vigilantism, gay or straight, is never the way to go. I agree with you Martian in that laws will not prevent such acts of random violence. I do believe, however, that most statistics says that pulling your weapon usually results in it being used on you.

I firmly believe in the right to own guns and to defend yourself. Whether it would have been able to save this young man is the answer we'll never know.

Hmmmm, PF with a gun.

I have never had a problem walking to the car at night. Or going to the grocery store. Or going to the 7-11 (then your truck wont start) and it's 2:45 in the morning. Then you have to wait 30 min for your friends to save you... I must say some really funny 300 lb black woman did give me a hug (after i gave her a cig). More so than my own safety i was hoping she would be OK since she was out walking at 2:45am.

BUT...

Having a gun when the annoying drunk person starts to talk to you will come in pretty handy.

Or if someone cuts infront of you when in line.

Just imagine how many wonderful decisions will be made at 2am in the morning when everyone is leaving with their concealed weapons!


I aint gettin one of those small guns either. I'm gettin one of the big ones... which will come in handy if anyone is looking. is that his gun or...

This gun idea is GREAT. Why did none of ya'all give me the idea last year?????

Can you "official" winter bike with a gun? I'd think you'd need both hands on the handlebars.

[ March 07, 2005, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

Dude, you need to chill.

You know, I almost did not comment because I worried this would become a political rant. No, I don't believe in guns, and will not allow them around me. I believe they are dangerous and unnecessary. Not to mention in my family, with a long line of people with quick and mean tempers (myself included), it would be crazy to have a gun around - we'd end up shooting one another.

I am also glad that my family did not own guns when I was going through my suicidal depression in high school. I very likely would have used that method, and that is a scary thing to consider indeed (in fact, during my high school career, another student, the child of a police officer, used his father's gun in just that way - it was horrible).

That being said, I was NOT trying to bring my politics into the situation, just pointing out that, given what I have read about this assault, and my own experiences, a gun would not be useful in these types of situations.

As Joe in Philly pointed out, I was assaulted, barely 4 months ago, and still suffer constant pain in my jaw and teeth from the implant that is holding the left side of my face together. I was sucker-punched with a brick before I even realized an assault was happening. I barely had time to think, and with blood pouring from my lower eyelid, not to mention the extreme swelling, could not have aimed a gun with any accuracy at that moment (and yes, I have some experience in the matter, having had basic gun training while an actor in college, albeit with blanks, not a loaded gun). There is a thread about my attack entitled \"Violent Crime Vent.\"

15 years ago, when I first moved to DC, I was also held up at gunpoint. A few years later my roommate, his girlfriend and I surprised a car thief in the act of attempting to steal the girlfriend's Cherokee. A few years after that, I was a witness to a shooting inside the Union Station Metro stop.

In none of those instances would a gun have proven any use (okay, we could have killed the car thief, but that seems a bit pointless, as he was unable to actually steal the car). In both the hold-up and assault situations, I believe it would have made things worse.

So my experience is not scientific, it is admittedly anecdotal, but I was trying to use common sense. I'm sorry that I offended you.

Given that "Jeff Gannon" is now presenting himself as a heterosexual - or at least insinuating that Maureen Dowd would benefit from a "Gannon" special delivery (what a putz!) - I doubt we can really consider him gay. And every one of my comments about the fraudulent "reporter" for the fake news site was based on "Gannon's" own behavior. I did not attempt to imply that all gay people, or even all gay-prostitutes-by-night/conservative-"journalists"-by-day, were somehow horrible because of what "Gannon" has done - which is what anti-gay politicians and "religious" leaders do. Criticizing someone for their individual actions is appropriate; stereotyping and demeaning millions of people because they happen to be gay is what lays the foundation for this type of violence.

Okay. I have to comment on this. It sucks what happened to the guy, and yes, hate crime laws, which include increased sentances DO tend to reduce the severity of the crimes. At least up here it tends to.

BUT. Advocating guns? I disagree. Here's why.

When I was in grade 11, I was assaulted in the lunch room of my high school. One of the football team had me in a headlock and was punching me. The whole cafeteria was chanting "kill the fag, kill the fag". The teachers on duty thought it was funny.
That weekend, my parents were away, and I remember waking up on Saturday morning being calmer than anytime in years. I did the list of chores that had been left for me, got a roll of plastic out of the garage, and taped it up the wall above the couch in the basement. I then got one of my father's double barrelled shotguns out of his gun safe, loaded it, and tied the 2 triggers together. It wasn't depression, as I remember being calm. I wasn't crying, swearing or anything. It seemed clear to me that this was the only option I had, and I was fine with it.

I remember sitting on the couch, with the barrels in my mouth, when the phone rang. It was one of my dad's hunting buddies, who knew my parents had gone away, and was phoning to say that if I needed anything, to call him and his wife.

That seemed to break the spell, and obviously I didn't do it.

What I did forget to do was take down the plastic, so when my parents came home the next day, my mom saw it and called my dad down to the basement. Nothing was said, I wasn't asked if anything was wrong, but they didn't let me out of their sights for about 6 months.

I found out years later (at my parents funeral) that word had gotten back to my parents about what happened. When I expressed an interest about changing schools for grade 13, they said yes before I even had a chance to complete the sentance.

And it was 2.5 years after that incident that my first lover was beaten to death.

Violance against young gay men and women have HUGE consequences. I know.

Guns don't solve anything to a young person who has been beaten down, except the wrong solution.

I personally believe the lack of gun control in this country is a colossal mistake. But sometimes, on a purely emotional and therefore irrational level, I wish a gay person would just blow the head off one of these f*cking assh*le cowards bent on bashing homosexuals. One or two incidents would get the word out. Don't get me wrong, guns are way too available in this country and way too many young people have died because of careless gun control, storage, and safety. This is one more issue that the right wing has managed to screw up big time. But, nevertheless, it's hard not to feel angry...

You know, I have no problems with people having guns. Buy 10 of them if you want. This is america ya know....

But where does the line of "common sense" come into play? There is a point of being careful where/when you walk. Sometimes bad things happen to good people...

But the day you walk around strapping a piece because you assume that something bad is going to happen... well, common sense has taken a back seat. You are a moron who should not leave their house all day.

Sorta like voting for howard dean, but different.

Getting back on topic, I am surprised, but not much, at how little the media make of these types of crimes. Here we have an unarmed person, simply minding his own business, beaten so badly he may not survive (although, thank God, he does not appear to be fatally injured), and the only press I have seen is in the gay media or local NM stuff. I suppose when Matthew Shepard was killed the nature of the crime, not to mention the perceived "crucifixion" pose in which he was reported to have been tied (although that turned out to be untrue) were compelling enough to bring major media attention - but why only that anti-gay hate crime.

In the past few months there have been a number of these crimes that I have heard about through the same types of media, but it never appears to be picked up in national press or TV. Is there just that little value put on gay crime - or does the media not perceive the pattern to these kinds of assaults? What does not get mentioned, or even considered, is the impact these crimes have on all gay people. I have often noted that straight people do not have to worry about being randomly assaulted when they leave their favorite restaurant or nightclub, but being wary of such crimes is pretty much a fact of life for gay people.

Yes. I often ride with no hands during the winter. Although it is not official. I Have not ridden my bike to a gym in 15 years. We did establish that for riding to be official you have to be enroute to an indoor training facility. Also this is only theoretical based upon my working of other devices while biking. I haven't owned a gun in over 20 years.

Just trying to help Philly keep well informed.

There are so many titanium bike parts to buy and improve my quality of life. Why waste money on a gun? It seems like it only has the potential to postpone death. Death in a world that you do not want to live in.

Previously MadMartian makes the assertion that hate crime laws are Orwellian. Then labels others as"left" from a qualified sane perch of "right, or other than left".

Once again Orwell was a self-proclaimed SOCIAL DEMOCRAT. Orwell had several books, not just "Animal Farm" or the alluded to "1984". In the book "1984", if you read it, you will remember that the laws encouraged hate and Party members were mandated to participate in hate rallies, the "30 Minute Hate". This would make calling "hate crime laws" Orwellian literally ironic.

I don't know. Maybe I am just bored with bicycle stuff

...I have often noted that straight people do not have to worry about being randomly assaulted when they leave their favorite restaurant or nightclub, but being wary of such crimes is pretty much a fact of life for gay people....

CPT_Doom, crime happens to straight people too! If the criminals all asked if their victims were gay or straight, then your argument would have merit. Otherwise, crime is an equal opportunity evil.

Exactly how often are there groups of gay men hanging outside predominantly straight clubs waiting to pounce? That was my point - crime against gays and lesbians is higher than against straight people, and gays and lesbians are more likely to be the victims of senseless violence.

Then show us some examples of gay people beating and kicking straight people while yelling things like "YOU f**kING BREEDER! f**kING HETERO!!" etc.

Well, some good news in this story - the victim in question was released from the hospital, although he has pneumonia, and is still at risk of further infections.

365gay report

Joe in Philly...ever hear of the "N" word? How about F-ing Arabs....oh wait, what about Wetbacks go home, Spics go home, wops go home...etc. How about a raping of a female? Isn't that a crime? Sometimes, criminals just rob people, gay or straight, because they are twisted individuals. I never said that hate crimes don't happen to gay people. I said crime is an equal opportunity evil.

We're not talking about crime in general or crimes motivated by money or hate crimes based on race. We're talking about crimes committed because of sexual orientation. The subject is the gay guy who was beaten in New Mexico because he's gay. So again, show me examples of gays beating up straights not because of a race issue or for money, but merely because they're straight.

[ March 09, 2005, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Joe, I have come reallly, really close. But me being me, I just flirted with the guy's little sister and girl friend. There's only so much verbal and physical abuse I can take before I act out.

I quit as soon as I got another job.