I'm shocked at the "get over it" attitudes of those defending sex in the showers/wet areas of the gym. The 'If you don't like it, shower at home' response is just ludicrous. I have no problems with sex clubs and sex parties. Using a public facility for your own sexual hijinks is just bad form. And I don't want to step in your spunk, dudes!

I guess from reading most all of this thread, it comes down to the two types of gay guys who go to gyms. The promiscuis kind, and the non promiscuous kind. Personally I am with the non promiscuous kind, I go to the gym to work out, and the last thing I want to see or hear about is two guys getting it on in the shower or sauna or what have you. There is a time and place for everything as I think I have said before.

Thank you TC.

Interesting discussion, pretty representative of what's happening in gay life, I think.

Just wanted to add another point of view that might not have been fully expressed in the earlier, more detailed postings.

I think it's true that a gym should be a place for people to go to workout. But in the gay community, sometimes the gym is the only place for people to meet. (Yes, I said meet, not have sex.) My only concern is that sometimes when people, even gay men, loudly complain about gay sex at the gym, then they may create an environment that might be hostile to anyone who might be perceived as gay. Even if a gay man has never had sex in a public gym, the next time he walks in, he'll be labeled as someone who may be a pervert. When we make the sexual act so extreme, it becomes perverted. I'm not sure if I'm making my point clearly. I definitely don't want people to think that I'm supporting public sex, but do you get what I'm saying about how when we go to one extreme end it can come back to bite us?

I used to go to the Crunch in New York and for awhile they had showers with clear curtains. Then there were complaints about cruising going on, so the management changed the curtains to solid ones and then hired someone who stood in the shower hallway to watch people go in and out of the shower. I felt very uncomfortable having someone watching me go in and out and felt like I was in prison. And everytime I smiled at someone who I thought was cute, I worried that he would take it the wrong way and accuse me of something more.

It's funny to note too that when the Crunch opened in San Francisco, they created showers with frosted glass so that people outside walking to the shower room can see silouhettes of people showering, both men and women. Those showers are pretty infamous that always kicks off a discussion about sex at the gym.

Anywho, gay men are going to continue to cruise at the gym because there are so few places for us to meet people. I just hope that the extreme outrage expressed earlier doesn't create a cooling effect for those who are cruising in normal ways like smiling or winking at someone in the locker room.

Lets see....we say out of the right side of our mouths...."Oh you straight men are so stupid, of course when we get into those military/sports related/straight gym showers we are not checking your nads...."

Then, out of the left side of our mouth, we're saying...."of course we're checking other guys out in the showers, after all we are gay!"

:confused: :mad: :confused: :mad:

NJ

I have a hard time buying that any halfway intelligent, rational person - gay or straight or somewhere inbetween - thinks that sex in public is appropriate social behavior, whether at the gym or elsewhere. The reason people engage in public sex is because it's taboo and risque and that can be exciting.

Those who do engage in sex at the gym and are defending this behavior should at least give Cyd some credit for his intelligence and admit that they partake in these activities precisely because it's inappropriate.

There's a whole world out there that I am so oblivious to ... I don't even like to go to the bathroom in public restrooms!! I can't even imagine.

>> and then hired someone who stood in the shower hallway to watch people go in and out of the shower.<<

Nice work if you can get it!

I am not a prude, and in the past, before I met my husband, used to go to bathouses quite a lot. But that was the late 1970's when I was young, thin, and a dedicated bottom.
Trust me, I had many, many, many enjoyable nights in the room, steam room, shower, whirlpool, hallways, sling room, well, you get the picture.

When we still lived in downtown Toronto, I used to belong to a gym in the gay village. I actually used to go 3 times a week to do cardio, and would not only see cruising, but ALWAYS wore flip flops in the change room. I mean, some of them would shoot off, and leave it on the floor. If I wanted sex, I would not do it in a gym. Geez, within a 5 minute walk there were 4 bath houses (I think they're still there as they still advertise in the gay paper).

As we now live in a small town, I don't belong to the downtown gym anymore, and am lucky enough that my employer has a gym for employees only, and costs me a grand total of $10 per month.
But my point is this. Most of us join gyms to work out. If you want to have sex, spend the $20 and go to a bath house. The last thing I need is to walk into the shower and see all of that.

And quoting a previous poster. If I did walk into the shower I'd probably be bitchy, and say that I have to piss, and then ask if they wanted any. 99 times out of 100 they'd run like hell.

Not exactly, Puckman. It's not always either or. I'm not promiscuous, and at my gyms I go to work out. But I usually join gyms that have large gay male clientele, and at most of these, I have witnessed people--men--having sex. It doesn't bother me, but I accept that it bothers others. I have never sought to police others' behaviors, and if they are not bothering me or harming other adults, I don't care. But I would agree that in the cases of some (gay?) gyms, the lines are blurred, and as others have stated, gay social--public and private--spaces have historically also been a place for people to connect not just platonically, but in some cases sexually. As for having someone posted to watch you enter and exit the shower, that happened at my Catholic boy's high school, and it was particularly creepy. In a private business, though, I guess the owners can do whatever they want so long it doesn't violate the law or send customers fleeing in droves.

Uh, not always. I once spoke with an ex-priest who frequently engaged in sex in the Blue Hills area near Boston (which, once upon a time, was raided periodically by the cops) as well as at the main public library branch (right down on Boylston St. in the heart of Bostonn). His justification for Blue Hills was that it was far enough away from his parish and it drew a wide cross section of men who weren't "gay"; the public library's bathrooms supposedly provided him with access to lots of younger, working-class guys. Of course similar arguments have been apotheosized in literature for years, such as in THE SWIMMING POOL LIBRARY, for example. But in my early 20s, I did have a running buddy who, unlike me, wasn't "out" to others, but was "questioning," and ended up meeting a Harvard lecturer through sex in the public library's bathrooms. They actually went out for about a year or so.

There is a distinction between meeting in public and having sex in public. Everyone meets in public ... at the grocery store, library, wherever. But I don't see that as applicable to an argument for the necessity of public sex. So it's nice that a running buddy who wasn't out met his Harvard lecturer in the public library, but if their connection was such that a relationship lasted for a year and a half, it probably wasn't necessary for them to do the nasty the minute they met. Fun, I have no doubt, but not necessary.

The argument that it's the only way for people who aren't openly gay to have sex doesn't wash for me either. If you're questioning or experimenting or just plain not out - if you're going to hike far away from your neighborhood to go to a pick up spot that doesn't have anyone who knows you - then I would think your secrecy would be important enough to rent a friggin' hotel room.

Yes, I agree with the basic statement that historically gyms have been a place to connect sexually. So, what's wrong with changing that? The world's changing every day, why must some in the gay community insist on clinging to the past to the detriment of others?

The case could possibly be made that there's some form of sexual harassment going on, when some people (either patrons or employees) are unwillingly exposed to sexual activity. There is a clear difference between a gym and a sex club/bathhouse, and one should reasonably expect to not find sexual activity at a gym. The argument that you should leave the gym and frequent another, or find another job if sexual activity bothers you is crap. Unless the gym management explicitly states that their gym allows sexual activity, then it's their responsibility to prevent it. The perpetrators should be the ones to leave and find a more appropriate venue in which to get their freak on.

Let's quit living in the past when all the world was a closet and men had no good options for meeting other men, and were forced to hook up in bathrooms, gyms, parks, etc. We're way past that stage, especially in NYC.

Gaga, just two points: you're reading things into what I said that weren't there. I said "about a year," yet you made it a "year and a half." Also the Harvard lecturer wasn't my friend's teacher, at least at first--my friend wasn't enrolled at Harvard, or any university in Boston, at the time.

As for the priest, I'm not sure why he didn't get "friggin' hotel room," though at the time, of course, the nearby Lenox hadn't gotten swanked up and I'm sure they would have taken cash, but maybe he didn't want to leave a paper trail. I don't know. I've never been a priest in the closet looking for non-"gay" men, so I don't know. As for my friend, he was a poor guy in his early 20s who had once worked at that library. I'm sure the Harvard lecturer, who lived not far away, could have invited him back to his home or something, but hey, some people don't believe in deferred gratification. It's one thing that Roman Catholic Church used to reinforce in those of us who were trained in its doctrines.

Weaselman, you're right, the historical argument really is salient. Now that society has the Internet and other VIRTUAL means of meeting people AND arrange all kinds of trysts and assignations, and now that the discourse around what's acceptable in public has changed, perhaps people should review their own actions in terms of what they do in public spaces. As I said in my first response, though, if a gym is implying that sex is available on its premises, then perhaps you should take this into account before joining. A university gym, such as the one I also mentioned, is a different issue altogether; I know of no university that advertises that its facilities also double as Squirt.org hangouts. Both NYU and Columbia, I think, cracked down on sexual activity in their facilities after it got back to them that the predecessor to Squirt had listed them as prime sex spots.

Copman's replies are always very polite. And he even tested as a liberal once on one of those political questionnaires.

In New York there are also security cameras everywhere--especially since Giuliani first became mayor and even more so since 9/11--so somebody is always watching...

Personal comments in this thread have been deleted. Remain on-topic, and refrain from further ad hominem attacks. - Outsports moderator

[ January 10, 2005, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: m1 ]

Maybe I'm too young to know what "gay people," whatever that means, were like before AIDS hit or just really out of it in general, but reading some of these posts is really eye-opening. Chapter 3158 in why I tend to stay away from expressly gay functions/bars/whatever...

Allen, How is a gay man closeted when he is having sex in a public shower :confused:

I used to work for a behavioral institute that treated patients for sexual addiction. Those committing crimes in the shower may need help of some sort. They definitely need proper role modeling and a functional relationship. Personally, I do not like breathing the used air of a gym at my aerobic threshold. I do not feel comfortable in what I have always known to be a meat market. Aren't sex clubs illegal? Perhaps that is why they have to have a facade of a massage parlor, club, circuit party or gym. Wasn't there one in Texas that had the facade of a boy's home/orphanage?

FT, I just read your reply to my last post and apologize to all for this - relatively - late reply. First, as you admit, of course I recognize that it is unsafe sex that transmits AIDS. At the same time, I trust you recognize that the conduct deemed unsafe by medical experts over the years has widened considerably since its first, politically-limited definition, and that providing places where public sex is fostered increases those risks as well. You may not choose to believe that, buying into the "safe, nurturing environment" theory pushed by bathhouse owners, but I do. And when those places impinge upon others not intended for such activity - like the gyms at issue in this thread, remember? - the risk increase even more. That's human, specifically gay male, nature, and it's proved stubbornly difficult to restrain.

Second, what are you talking about when you start ranting about my allegedly cozying up to the Phelpses, Schaflys, Dobsons, Sheldons, etc. of the world? Just because I don't storm out of a room every time they enter it - figuratively speaking; "Rev." Lou Sheldon is the only one I've ever been within spitting distance of - hardly means I, or any other person of whatever political persuasion who doesn't buy into the "in your face" approach of politicking, am trying to mimic them. I learned long ago - it was when some wild-eyed Southern Baptist tried to proselytze me as a Catholic grade schooler, I think - that these people are beyond redemption, even according to their own simplistic theology. No, I'm not seeking their favor or approval, but to contain and limit them and their influence. I don't give a damn about what they or anyone else think of me; the approval of fools is favor I can do without.

The straighter the gym, the cruisier the showers/steam/sauna. Batboy, you should check out the crunch in West Hollywood. Nothing is left to the imagination.

[ January 11, 2005, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: jaydeenyc ]

I don't really care one way or the other about any of this. But this whole "I don't have sex in the gym! I would NEVER have sex in the gym!! I just can't imagine how ANYBODY could LIVE with themselves after having sex at the gym!!" etc. sounds a bit defensive. I'm just saying.

At any rate, forget sex: I would love to have been a fly on the wall at the gym where Allen was berating guys he caught hooking up. I can only imagine...

William, I don't typically pull politics on people, but I'm quite surprised that you as a staunch Republican has this hands-off attitude. It's the law. Besides, who among us would want their picture plastered across the 6 o'clock news for having sex in the gym?

Just call me a big ole' chicken.

"Hands off"? No pun intended, I'm sure. Perhaps you shouldn't stereotype Republicans. At any rate, I've never thought of this politically - I don't think either party platforms mention gym sex, so I'm really in open waters here. You won't find me getting laid at the gym, or even trying, but you also won't find me preaching for all to hear about the evils of gym sex. It's just not really on my radar.

You haven't been chicken for years!!!

It depends on what our definition of sex is...

I belong to Crunch in SF. As annoying as unwanted cruising is, and that's anywhere, anytime, I could never bring myself to complain about it. That's just a little high school/phobic to me, and come on, deal with reality, folks, and have some compassion for the oppression imposed upon the generations before. If, however, someone were to completely disregard my presence and engage in sexual activity in front of me (which has never happened to me at Crunch), I'd have a problem with that. Of course that's totally disrespectful. I do think that all this holier than thou stuff about being SOO outraged, and screaming that sex in public is illegal, is a crock of shit. And while bar sex and the like is unappealing to me, aren't some places somewhat geared to that kind of sloppy behavior? And don't people know that before they get there?

If str8 women would allow it, str8 men would be having locker room sex, too (which they sometimes do, with gay men). So, there's definitely a little gay phobia going on here. Men are pigs, don't we already know that? There are plenty of gay people, even here, who would like to be perfect gay models for heterosexuals (their fathers and their 'communities'), which means conservative, monogamous (don't get me wrong/i'm one of those monogamy believers), non-threatening, and clean as a whistle ("I would never touch a stranger! Never!). I think some of this faux outrage comes from that energy.

And jerking off with someone doesn't cause disease, which I think is what mostly goes on in locker rooms, etc., yes? This thread strikes me as "much ado..."

Hey Bryan:

Men are men, they're not pigs.

I know a person(two actually come to mind) who sells sex for part of his living. This person also markets himself in a sexual fashion on the internet. Yet this person gets offended when folks engage in sex in a gym he patronizes. The individual is acting within the law; the gay public sex infractors are not. However, this fact does not make the outspoken individual person's livelihood and/or actions any less lecherous or ironic. Walking on eggshells in a glass house while pointing fingers at the 100th gay gym monkey? Not the nuerotic existence I strive for.
No monkey is an island regardless of how many times you spank it.
Personally I have witnessed enough gay public sex to be desensitized to it. I just go about my business. My experiences with the "openly gay" crowd included so much prejudice and pretense on their part. I wonder what these "accepting" people say about me when I do not stroke the gods of their gay lifestyle the right way. So for my own peace of mind I stay out of the gay wet spots. Can you meet a functional person and form a sound relationship out of such places anymore? The problem is solved except for the unavoidable cruising at the Whole Foods. Then there's a good chance they have certified organic toaster pastries at their place. wink

Brilliant. This sounds like a line from a Pixies song.

10 years ago, I had a couple of sexual encounter in the gym... one of them which was a receiving end of a gang f**k (3 guys lined up) in the showers. Whenever I think about it now, I am totally disgusted with myself, and writing about it now is very difficult. It is something I will never ever do again, and the truth is, I even avoid the locker room as much as possible.

Wow, there's no machine like that at my gym.

Wonder what kind of scolding Allen would give on that?

[ January 12, 2005, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: PhillyFan ]

Dear PhillyFan,

For the last time...please quit badgering me, I will not move to AZ and join your gym.

Love,
RazorbackTX

Personally, I'm more offended by the aerobics classes...all that unrehearsed bouncing; I can only look away to avoid the certain headache...

Seriously, many people, gay and straight, have boundary issues usually caused by childhood stuff. Be gentle with yourself and move forward. And far away from naked twister in the sauna..

Dammit, I was at the county rec center gym this morning and none of the old ladies in their sensible swimsuits hit on me in the shower.

Must be my wedding ring scaring them away.

LOL@GJ

(BPT channels the late Paul Lynde)

He'd make us rasterbate in the corner.... *snickers*

They were intimidated by your nice rack.
GO VIKES!!!!!!!!

Did Raze make a New Year's resolution to be funnier? This is like, the second funny thing he's said this year. Interesting...

William1865,

I was going for a Pere Ubu or a mellower Butthole Surfers line. Seeing as how this monkey isn't going to heaven.

Pere Ubu, Butthole Surfers, sex at the gym-all in one sentence, impressive, in a Burroughs kind of way.

Agreed. That is an important distinction. There are private venues (bathhouses/sex clubs, paid backrooms at porn shops, private parties), which require proof of but generally take cash after proof of age is provided. So people who have sex outside those private venues are risking, if not inviting, capture. I'm not judging, but I'm not sympathizing either. (I've been there, but I had enough close calls and bad experiences to learn from it.) Gamblers often lose.

Then there's the question of come-ons that continue after the visible or audible no. What's welcomed by some is not welcomed by everyone.

I'm no prude, but people (gay or otherwise) who do go to the gym for the workout (or to the park for the bike trail, for that matter) should be able to do so without being harassed.

Then again, if a gym is trying to "have it both ways" with come-on ads and a facility design that encourages what the rules officially forbid ... that's hypocritical, but more to the point, it's stupid business, because it's likely to alienate customers on both sides, if it hasn't already.

Okay, maybe I'm just a perv, but I'll admit while I don't like the idea of guys having sex at the gym, I will be honest that twice I have let a guy whack off my tool....I'm not proud of it, it just happened as I was sitting relaxing in the sauna and a guy reaches over and starts to work my rod. No one else saw or was around, still I' not proud of it.

And something tells me this "club" in Lynn, MA, won't be a real gym (if it even opens):
City casts queer eye on gym's intentions

These M2M cruisings/meetings do take place at the gyms I go to out here in L.A. - actually up and down the Golden State...heck it happens at most gyms. I've seen it, my friends and cousins have seen it and told me about it at the gyms they go to - basically it happesn at all the gyms(Bally, 24 Hour Fitness, Gold's, Crunch, Bodies in Motions, Club One) and I've seen carousing going at the 24 Hour Fitness(where I have membership)out in Arizona and at the good old YMCA in Minneapolis. Bottom line it happens whether the gym is in a gay ghetto(Castro, West Hollywood or Silver Lake) or in the suburbs in Pasadena(in CA not TX) or Pleasanton(east of Oakland, CA).

Wow Cyd- I still can't believe those emails-
I guess I'm still more of a Pollyanna then I realized. It really turned my stomach reading the responses.
I just love that "public sex = gay history or it's our right baloney!
Next come the Nambla guys. Just cause it makes me hard it's my right to do it. Whenever and whereever I want.
I know I'll get blasted but you ever wonder where the Gay rights movement and opinion of the "Red States" towards gays would be if this small but all too visble and vocal faction of gay men didn't exist?

Erik did I miss something or did prostitution become legal somewhere? Be sure to let your "friend" know if he gets paid for sex- no matter how you hide it with labels like escort, massage therapy etc. He is not acting within the law!

Yes you did miss something. One can sell sex within the limits of the laws, VHS, DVD and internet download. I am not claiming moral high ground just the contradiction of some that do.

My apology then I took it (selling of sex) in the wrong context.

Not a big deal. It is hard to be clear and concise and not mention names.
I have taken showers with more straight men than gay men in my life. The proclaimed straights were the ones walking around semi-erect in the locker rooms and checking other guys out. I think this issue has more to do with your sexual maturity and functional attitude.

Heck, at the YMCA in Charlotte, NC (bible belt) they have signs up in the men's lockeroom saying that M2M action is not allowed at the Y. It is so rampant at one of the Y's that it is just gross to even shower there. People don't even try to hide their intentions! It's kind of comical. Also, like most I am not so innocent. You live and learn.

I have seen the acts at my local Y that I attend...in fact the guy was very blatant about it...he stood there "washing" his penis for a very very long time, while watching me, and a buddy of mine. we both ignored him....the room is now getting busy...and the gentlemen moved to the private showers at the end of the room....but kept the curtain open.......I noticed that the "washing guy" had caught the eye of a older guy, (The older guy was in an obvious state of arousal,) that was showering across from him. The guy quickly made a dash over to the "washing" guys private shower...by this time there was only myself, my buddy, and maybe 1 other guy in the room...I looked under the walls of the private stall and lo and behold...two feet, and two knees...four legs..... eek!

I was pissed off....I told my buddy to check it out, just to see if I was imagining it...nope we both saw it...so off the showers go, we dry off...and as i was leaving the dry room, the "Older guy" was coming into the room...he still was semi erect, and had a frigging wedding band on.

We got dressed quickly, and went right to the C/S desk to complain....I havent seen either guy since, and it has been a while. There is a time and place for things like tht, and the mens lockeroom is not the time nor the place....

Sorry for the long post....but as a gay man, I was offended...not only that, I was pissed that these men, could not control their urges, or worse came to the gym, looking for that action. We have Bathouses and spas up here for that sort of thing...don't bring it to my gym..I will rat you out. It is not a Gay man's or any mans right to have sex wherever and whenever in a publicly used space.

Stepping off soapbox and putting on Flame suit....

[ January 30, 2005, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: rickinto ]

Something about "Y"'s isn't there though? As I have posted earlier, I haven't, but my ex said he has seen guys on a couple of occasions getting hand jobs in the sauna at the downtown YMCA here. He reported it on a couple of occasions. No signs put up here...yet.