Because is hasn't "insulted and disparaged a substantial numbers of Native Americans," Washington's football franchise can remain the Redskins and keep its logo.

[img]http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I54174-2000Mar21[/img]

An appeal is likely.

Quick ... pass out the smallpox-infected blankets and we'll have even fewer of 'em to insult and disparage.

All you Scandanavians better get busy protesting the smear of being labelled a Viking. wink

How long would a "Blackskins", "Brownskins", "Yellowskins" or "Whiteskins" mascot last?

Make jokes, trivialize and brand it political correctness, but this issue IS hurtful to a lot of people. There's some really bad history for Native Americans to deal with (small pox blankets included). frown

The team was originally founded in 1932 as the Boston Braves. Owner George Preston Marshall renamed the team the Boston Redskins one year after its establishment in "honor" of William Henry "Lone Star" Dietz, who was their coach at the time and was a Native American.

Having said that, I once wrote a column arguing that the Redskins should keep their name. I disagree with that notion now.

How would you all feel if a team were named the San Francisco Faggots?

Dick Gregory, the radical '60's activist turned comedian (and who happens to be African-American), had a comment some years back that is as disturbing as it is hilarious.

He said that the offended tribes should pool casino profits, buy the team, then change the name to suit the dominant ethnicity of the players: the Washington "N***erHonkies".

eek! eek!

Only Dick Gregory could get away with that...

Aren't they already the 69'ers?? Okay, I'll keep my mouth shut...

I suppose back in 1932, the name 'Redskins' didn't seem as derogatory as it does now, but that's no excuse to keep the name. In fact, I'm surprised it wasn't changed long ago. Surely someone could come up with a less offensive-sounding name; my suggestion (maybe not too original) is Washington Warriors, or better yet Washington Spurriers

I haven't heard whether there has been a similar controversy over MLB's Cleveland Indians. In Canada, the word 'Indians' has in recent years acquired a pejorative meaning; most people avoid the word and now say 'First Nations'. And yet we have a football team called the Edmonton Eskimos, and nobody seems upset about that (the Eskimo people are now referred to as Inuit).

I've always thought it'd be cool for a team to have a symbol/mascot that was anchored in local history and culture. Something to remind the community of "where they come from", so to speak and/or an acknowledgement of the "first nations" that came before us.

I think this especially relates to college campuses. Some really wonderful history and tradition could emerge and develop into new celebrations and campus rituals that could be really engaging for college students

...and local kids, too. Imagine players from the Seminoles going into a local school and talking about with kids about where the Seminoles name comes from and why they're proud to play for a team named after the Seminole tribe

Athletics brochures, press books, et al. could print information about the tribes they're named after and highlight some of the traditions and aspect of the tribes culture that compliment or guide the vision of the athletic department and/or individual teams.

I know some of this stuff is going on...I just wish it'd receive more attention, and that more administrators would make a push in this direction.

Did I get too far off point?

B Man,

BikeJocks and J T can probably speak on this point with much more authority, but I've heard that F$U consults with the Seminole tribe about the use of its name, cultural representations, etc., and that the Seminoles have given them their "blessing" to do so (would not be surprised if there was a nice gift involved as well).

As to "local" team names, I've always liked how the Florida teams are named for icons of Old Florida: Gators, Seminoles, Hurricanes, and USF Bulls (central-Florida-raised Brahman bulls). Dunno where UCF got the Golden Knights, tho. :confused:

gj

[ October 02, 2003, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: GatorJamie ]

GJ - -that's interesting about the Seminoles.

Marquette conferred with tribes in Wisconsin -- the Ho Chunk at a minimum (the tribe formerly known as the Winnebago) -- when they thought about changing from the Warriors to the Golden Eagles. The council of the Ho Chunk said they had absolutely no problem with the Warrior name -- those liberal Jesuits at Marquette bowed to pc pressure and changed it anyway.

[ October 02, 2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: DCBucky ]

Hmm... if several colleges whose sports nicknames had historical precedent and tradition behind them could change their names, why not change the Redskins? The name isn't exactly reflective of the nation's capital.

Some suggestions:

Washington Warhawks
Washington Diplomats (I know, old soccer team)
Washington Nationals (since baseball will never come to D.C. again)
Washington Humidity (It's not the Heat, it's the Humidity!)
Washington Swampbeasts
Washington Dawgs

I guess the team just didn't try hard enough.

Thanks GatorJ - I knew some of that stuff, but I didn't want to speak definitively, because I wasn't quite sure. I think it's cool schools like F$U and Marquette have reached out.

I forgot to comment about the quote that started the thread, but there have been a number of hysterical comments/responses already...

Like DestinyRules, I'm curious about alternatives. Have any alternatives been proposed? Seems to me there could be a lot of $$$ generated by changing names and creating a whole new brand identity.

I'm wondering if Danny-boy Snyder doesn't see this as a mixed blessing -- if they needed to change the name and logo -- all those 'skins fans would have to ante up and buy new shirts, flags, tire covers ... the list goes on. Ka-ching!

Yes, FSU has the full support of the Seminole Tribe and consults with them on all official representations. For instance before "Chief Osceola", FSU's horse-riding mascot, made his first appearance, the tribe was consulted to ensure an accurate portrayal and ladies of the tribe have designed the costumes for all the riders, who ride a Florida-bred Appaloosa horse bareback, as the Seminoles did. Osceola was a famous Chief of the tribe who opposed treaties with the US that would require them to move west. (What our history books call the First and Second Seminole Wars, they refer to as the Wars of Removal.) FSU does not have a Homecoming King and Queen - they have a Chief and Princess, who don't wear crowns, they wear traditional headdresses which are presented to them by representatives of the tribe. Members of the Seminole Tribe receive full scholarships to attend Florida State. When the furor about Indian nicknames was at it's peak in the early 90's Chief James Billie said, "We are proud to be Seminoles, and we are proud of the Florida State University Seminoles."

UCF was originally Florida Technological University ("F ta you") and the school seal had (and still has) a rendering of Pegasus, the winged horse. When the school did a contest/election for a nickname, the winner was "Knights of Pegasus". Yep, a bit wordy once you go beyond division III sports, so it was shortened to just "Knights". In 1993 it evolved into "Golden Knights".

Don't forget the Jacksonville Dolphins. (And the Stetson Hatters. Yes, the school is named after the maker of the hat.)

Jim

Call me a sentimental sap, but this stuff sounds really cool (posted by BikeJocks):
I'm sure there a students who are aloof or who don't get it, but I think the stuff FSU is doing is great.

A city like DC could take a lead, from both the Seminoles and the Olympics. The Olympics always do a great job of rooting their ceremonies and overall aesthetic in local culture and history.

Of course, the DC team isn't named for a local tribe. In fact, the name Redskins is...umm, errrrr...well, it's worse than the Braves, really. Redskins, huh?

If they had a name they could work with, I'd encourage them to really USE it. I'm sure Danny S. could get a graphic designer to do wonderful things with the Washington Swampbeasts name (lunchboxes!, pajamas!, action figures!)...

!$$$!

Good info, B-man! For decades, the students at the University of Illinois took similar pains to accurately and respectfully depict Chief Illiniwek and his halftime dance, which was based on actual Indian dances. Unfortunately, historically ignorant, politically correct minds prevailed and he was blanketed from appearing and perpetuating the tradition. It was an honor to be chosen "Chief" and for years the honor went to members of Beta Theta Pi. Less blinkered students still "dance the Chief" regardless of the official restrictions and it's always a good time at campus parties for the Chief to appear sometime in the evening and do his thing. I wonder how many of the Chief's detractors ever attended, or hosted, such affairs?

Reminds me of the old environmental commercial showing an Indian gazing off into the distance and then turning towards camera with a tear running down his face. Another legacy of American culture destroyed by the left! :mad:

Kinda like that quaint legacy of American culture known as the "Bill of Rights" being destroyed by the right!

One suggestion that I really like that has been floated for the 'Skins (I personally never use the "red" in front of their name if I can avoid it) is to rename the team the Pigskins - keeps with the football theme and still allows for the traditional nickname.

I believe, though I may be wrong, that the primary problem with "redskins" is its use of a quasi-racist idea - all Native Americans have red skin (akin to "n***er because it refers to a physical characteristic). Other Native American team names, including "Indians" and "Braves" aren't necessarily considered offensive unless the team uses the name or its connotations in stereotypical ways. Thus, the problem in Atlanta is not the team name, but the infamous "tomohawk chop." That may also be why the Illinois dance fell out of favor (and please, gmginsfo, don't equate "left" with "politically correct").

I like that Florida manages to maintain their name and traditions by gaining the approval and acceptance of the tribe - clearly they consider the name a compliment, not an insult. The 'Skins would not be able to do that, however, I don't think any Native Americans are supportive of the "redskin" appelation.

The Washington Pigskins would also make the "Hogettes" more apropos. Lot of "pork" in DC too! Paging Danny Snyder!

I'm sorry, but Pigskins is a horrible name. It just sounds stupid.

If they really want to keep the Skins name, perhaps they could go with Foreskins? eek! eek! eek!

Aww fer Christsake! The ATL Brave tomahawk chop was taken directly FROM FSU...if it didn't catch crap from native Seminoles, why the hell is it "bad" that the Braves fans do it? Hypocrisy. Case closed.

I do, however, discern great difference between mascot names like "Indian," "Warrior," "Brave," et al and something as offensive as "Redskin." And I cannot understand why someone could not see the clear disparity in level of "offensiveness."

Pause here for some PC-leftist to launch an attack (of which this thread seems eerily devoid, thank god).

What is this guy's name?

Yes, Atlanta did get what they call the "tomohawk chop" from FSU when Deion Sanders started playing with them. Of course, the melody did not transfer intact, so their version is slightly different than the original.

FSU has always acknowledged that the arm motions so familiar to everyone one now (and the original accompanying cheer "Scalp 'Em - still in use actually) is not accurate (Seminoles never used tomahawks or scalped their enemies), but it was well established before any question of it arose, and any kind of "crowd participation" behavior carries a large amount of inertia. The Marching Chiefs had created the musical "Massacre Cheer" (which popularized the full crowd 'chop' motion) back in the 60's when nobody gave much thought to whether it was 'politically correct' or 'accurate'.

The FSU athletics website acknowledges that the evolution from the "Massacre Cheer" (which was short) to the extended "War Chant" in the 80's was entirely done by the students, and slowly spread in popularity until it literally spread around the entire stadium. [They don't get the facts quite right. It didn't start at a road game at Auburn in the absence of the Marching Chiefs - the Chiefs were at both FSU-AU games in the 80's. It started up at a home game in 1985 by some drunken frat boys trying to sing the "Massacre Cheer" and getting it wrong, but the melody was so 'singable' that neighboring students in the crowd picked it up and it eventually got picked up by the Chiefs. I know this because I was one of the three MC members who figured out the notes and started playing it. Yes, I really did. (Man, I wish I'd written them down on paper right away - imagine the royalty money I could get!)

Anyway, since it was not officially created by they University, the administration is not accountable for it becoming a 'breach' of any arrangements between them and the Seminole Tribe.

So that's the story. The Tribe has never commented on the arm motion (the school never uses the term "tomahawk chop" - only Atlanta does), the Massacre Cheer, the War Chant, or the prevelant use of "Scalp 'Em" references in cheers.

Jim
(who is still amazed that frat boys could create a melody in the Mixolydian mode)

Jim, you know what they say about what can happen when you give a six-pack to a frat boy... eek! wink

Now, Jamie, don't go gettin' down on frat boys, even us superannuated ones! Just because you called Auburn right doesn't make you Queen of the Universe!

LOL, How can I be QofUniverse when my guys have become Eli's beyotch?

Naw, I was sayin that you shouldn't count frat boys out... as in, look what other famous thing they can do if given a 6-pack!?

Now back my lamenting... frown

Awww, you know us Sigmachees - it's milk and cookies what tickles us!

But I think you'd make a pretty good Q of the U anyway!