Pat Tillman killed in Afghanistan
This is incredibly sad news!! He was a Pro Bowl free safety for the Arizona Cardinals who walked away from a multi-million dollar contract in 2002 to serve for his country overseas. Several people, including myself, were surprised when he did this, but he wasnt trying to make a statement, he really believed in serving his country, and now this. He was only 28 yrs old!! I am stunned! His brother is also deployed with the Army in the Middle East.
My prayers are with his family and all of the families of our soldiers who have given their lives for the better welfare of our country.
Full Version: Pat Tillman, US Army Ranger
Let's hope Simeon Rice gets some publicity for this winning comment he made to Jim Rome:
"He really wasn't that good, not really," Rice said. "He was good enough to play in Arizona, [but] that's just like the XFL."
"He really wasn't that good, not really," Rice said. "He was good enough to play in Arizona, [but] that's just like the XFL."
The only Tillman commentary I've found at dodgeglobe.com is \"An NFL Player truly deserving of a child's worship\", dated 4/30. Is that it?
Apparently, my colleague's column was not posted online, although it should have been. My apologies.
Great piece in today's SF Chronicle, about yesterday's memorial Service in San Jose. This quote is from Pat's brother. Quite ballsy, I think:
"Tillman's youngest brother, Rich, wore a rumpled white T-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar, and immediately swore into the microphone. He hadn't written anything, he said, and with the starkest honesty, he asked mourners to hold their spiritual bromides.
"Pat isn't with God,'' he said. "He's f -- ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f -- ing dead.''"
the entire article is here:
Tillman Without Tears
"Tillman's youngest brother, Rich, wore a rumpled white T-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar, and immediately swore into the microphone. He hadn't written anything, he said, and with the starkest honesty, he asked mourners to hold their spiritual bromides.
"Pat isn't with God,'' he said. "He's f -- ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f -- ing dead.''"
the entire article is here:
Tillman Without Tears
Lower traffic this week lets you view it:
Tillman was no hero (Rene Gonzalez, UMass Daily Collegian)
Since this board is unwilling to filter out idiots and \"raghead\"-spouting bigots, this will be my last post.... until such idiots are properly barred. I haven't got time for the pain. Let the rejoicing begin!
I've enjoyed the dialogue with many of you, but also discovered that the average gay sports fan is as obtuse as his het counterpart. I hope all of you get what you need and deserve.
"Baseball is what we were; football is what we have become." - Mary McGrory
[ May 05, 2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Bill W ]
Tillman was no hero (Rene Gonzalez, UMass Daily Collegian)
Since this board is unwilling to filter out idiots and \"raghead\"-spouting bigots, this will be my last post.... until such idiots are properly barred. I haven't got time for the pain. Let the rejoicing begin!
I've enjoyed the dialogue with many of you, but also discovered that the average gay sports fan is as obtuse as his het counterpart. I hope all of you get what you need and deserve.
"Baseball is what we were; football is what we have become." - Mary McGrory
[ May 05, 2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Bill W ]
QUOTE
Bill W:
Since this board is unwilling to filter out idiots and "raghead"-spouting bigots, this will be my last post.... until such idiots are properly barred. I haven't got time for the pain. Let the rejoicing begin!
I think you had an allowable beef there, Bill W. I've thought the same thing that you wrote.
Since this board is unwilling to filter out idiots and "raghead"-spouting bigots, this will be my last post.... until such idiots are properly barred. I haven't got time for the pain. Let the rejoicing begin!
I'm with you, Bill W. Let's go have a beer. So long, all...
Very sad, I had tears in my eyes when I heard that today. On Memorial Day weekend too, just a tragic loss made even more tragic
Barrage of Bullets Drowned Out Cries of Comrades
[ December 04, 2004, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]
QUOTE
Communication Breakdown, Split Platoon Among the Factors Contributing to 'Friendly Fire'
Sunday, December 5, 2004; Page A01
First in a two-part series.
It ended on a stony ridge in fading light. Spec. Pat Tillman lay dying behind a boulder. A young fellow U.S. Army Ranger stretched prone beside him, praying quietly as tracer bullets poured in.
\"Cease fire! Friendlies!\" Tillman cried out.
Smoke drifted from a signal grenade Tillman had detonated minutes before in a desperate bid to show his platoon members they were shooting the wrong men. For a few moments, the firing had stopped. Tillman stood up, chattering in relief. Then the machine gun bursts erupted again.
....
Myths shaped Pat Tillman's reputation, and mystery shrouded his death. A long-haired, fierce-hitting defensive back with the Arizona Cardinals of the National Football League, he turned away a $3.6 million contract after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to volunteer for the war on terrorism, ultimately giving his life in combat in Taliban-infested southeastern Afghanistan.
....
Dozens of witness statements, e-mails, investigation findings, logbooks, maps and photographs obtained by The Washington Post show that Tillman died unnecessarily after botched communications, a mistaken decision to split his platoon over the objections of its leader, and negligent shooting by pumped-up young Rangers -- some in their first firefight -- who failed to identify their targets as they blasted their way out of a frightening ambush.
The records show Tillman fought bravely and honorably until his last breath. They also show that his superiors exaggerated his actions and invented details as they burnished his legend in public, at the same time suppressing details that might tarnish Tillman's commanders.
....
Sunday, December 5, 2004; Page A01
First in a two-part series.
It ended on a stony ridge in fading light. Spec. Pat Tillman lay dying behind a boulder. A young fellow U.S. Army Ranger stretched prone beside him, praying quietly as tracer bullets poured in.
\"Cease fire! Friendlies!\" Tillman cried out.
Smoke drifted from a signal grenade Tillman had detonated minutes before in a desperate bid to show his platoon members they were shooting the wrong men. For a few moments, the firing had stopped. Tillman stood up, chattering in relief. Then the machine gun bursts erupted again.
....
Myths shaped Pat Tillman's reputation, and mystery shrouded his death. A long-haired, fierce-hitting defensive back with the Arizona Cardinals of the National Football League, he turned away a $3.6 million contract after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to volunteer for the war on terrorism, ultimately giving his life in combat in Taliban-infested southeastern Afghanistan.
....
Dozens of witness statements, e-mails, investigation findings, logbooks, maps and photographs obtained by The Washington Post show that Tillman died unnecessarily after botched communications, a mistaken decision to split his platoon over the objections of its leader, and negligent shooting by pumped-up young Rangers -- some in their first firefight -- who failed to identify their targets as they blasted their way out of a frightening ambush.
The records show Tillman fought bravely and honorably until his last breath. They also show that his superiors exaggerated his actions and invented details as they burnished his legend in public, at the same time suppressing details that might tarnish Tillman's commanders.
....
[ December 04, 2004, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: twin58 ]
Part deux.
Army Spun Tale Around Ill-Fated April Mission
Army Spun Tale Around Ill-Fated April Mission
QUOTE
In tributes after Pat Tillman's death, the Army issued a distorted and incomplete narrative to his family and to the public.
I thought this belonged here. Photo here:
Pat Tillman
Pat Tillman
QUOTE
Tillman, at 26 years old, left a three-year, $3.6 million contract on the table to enlist in the Army with his brother Kevin after the 2001 season.
....
"A professional athlete's career is self-indulgent almost by definition," said Alan Klein, professor of sociology and anthropology at Northeastern University. "Risking your career and your life is not an easy decision. They're content to wear a patch on the uniform for solidarity, but that's the easy way out. Really, we're all taking the easy way out.
....
"Once you get past that thin veneer of deviant -- by that I mean guys like Dennis Rodman, Bill Walton and Bill Lee -- athletics has a rock-solid core of conservatism," Klein said. "The institution weeds out so-called deviants, people that don't fit mainstream views. In sports, there are a rule-bound set of behaviors. With coaching, it's very autocratic. In sports, you have an institution that socializes above and beyond what any church or family does."
....
"A professional athlete's career is self-indulgent almost by definition," said Alan Klein, professor of sociology and anthropology at Northeastern University. "Risking your career and your life is not an easy decision. They're content to wear a patch on the uniform for solidarity, but that's the easy way out. Really, we're all taking the easy way out.
....
"Once you get past that thin veneer of deviant -- by that I mean guys like Dennis Rodman, Bill Walton and Bill Lee -- athletics has a rock-solid core of conservatism," Klein said. "The institution weeds out so-called deviants, people that don't fit mainstream views. In sports, there are a rule-bound set of behaviors. With coaching, it's very autocratic. In sports, you have an institution that socializes above and beyond what any church or family does."
I don't know that volunteering automatically qualifies him as "the quintessential definition of a patriot." Maybe he likes to do the things the Rangers get to do, like be around other similar guys all the time.
For the reporter to say "More likely, it was Tillman's love for America, not to mention his brother, who also enlisted." is just patriotically presumptive. Why not quote him, or let others make comments?
Rice's speculation that ""I think it's very admirable, actually. You've got to give kudos to a guy like that because he did it for his own reasons. Maybe it's the Rambo movies, maybe it's Sylvester Stallone, Rocky, whatever compels him." is just as likely as the reporter's conclusion. Attributing motivation is a very difficult and perhaps futile thing. But it does make for a better story, and allows us to project things about ourselves that we really don't know about for sure.
It was quite the wide-ranging article...other quotes:
"Everybody in the Middle East today is there because they want to be there. No one forced them to enter the Army. Maybe that's why you don't see the athletes." Just like you don't see most of us there. And they don't want us unless we're volunteers either.
It goes on to talk about the Jocks to GI's program that was started to email between the 2--and pardon me, but I think it's more than a bit of a strain to try and juxtapose the 2 in the way they do for anything more than PR effect. I hardly think that bombing over Iraq is the same as draining putts at Augusta, but that's what they're straining to say....One pilot said:
"I felt so alive, so proud of my crewmates, so confident in my abilities, but all that was tempered with a certain degree of personal contempt for the massive loss of life; and for what? Because of a diabolical megalomaniac....As for news on TV I prefer FOX. Without bashing CNN too hard, from my perspective that really don't "get" the big picture and they tend to stay to far to the "left" for my taste. Really don't get to see too much television. At best I see 15 minutes per day."
There are doctors that expose themselves to disease everyday to try and help us get better and keep the rest of us safe. In fact, the doctor that discovered SARS died of the same disease. Yet we don't laud each and every health care worker as the "quintessential patriot."
The difficulty I think is in separating questions of policy from those of patriotism. The idea that the best thing anyone can do is get a gun and go kill as the most patriotic act, no matter how necessary we may think that may ultimately be, does a disservice to all the others who are out there making other's lives better all over the world.
There are some who want to prepare--and actually to fight. There are some who want to prepare--and fight for peace.
Whatever your approach and action, we can all be patriots if we stay aware about the policies that affect not only our lives, but others around the world. And holding our elected officials responsible to implement the decisions that we believe reflect the best we have to offer.
For the reporter to say "More likely, it was Tillman's love for America, not to mention his brother, who also enlisted." is just patriotically presumptive. Why not quote him, or let others make comments?
Rice's speculation that ""I think it's very admirable, actually. You've got to give kudos to a guy like that because he did it for his own reasons. Maybe it's the Rambo movies, maybe it's Sylvester Stallone, Rocky, whatever compels him." is just as likely as the reporter's conclusion. Attributing motivation is a very difficult and perhaps futile thing. But it does make for a better story, and allows us to project things about ourselves that we really don't know about for sure.
It was quite the wide-ranging article...other quotes:
"Everybody in the Middle East today is there because they want to be there. No one forced them to enter the Army. Maybe that's why you don't see the athletes." Just like you don't see most of us there. And they don't want us unless we're volunteers either.
It goes on to talk about the Jocks to GI's program that was started to email between the 2--and pardon me, but I think it's more than a bit of a strain to try and juxtapose the 2 in the way they do for anything more than PR effect. I hardly think that bombing over Iraq is the same as draining putts at Augusta, but that's what they're straining to say....One pilot said:
"I felt so alive, so proud of my crewmates, so confident in my abilities, but all that was tempered with a certain degree of personal contempt for the massive loss of life; and for what? Because of a diabolical megalomaniac....As for news on TV I prefer FOX. Without bashing CNN too hard, from my perspective that really don't "get" the big picture and they tend to stay to far to the "left" for my taste. Really don't get to see too much television. At best I see 15 minutes per day."
There are doctors that expose themselves to disease everyday to try and help us get better and keep the rest of us safe. In fact, the doctor that discovered SARS died of the same disease. Yet we don't laud each and every health care worker as the "quintessential patriot."
The difficulty I think is in separating questions of policy from those of patriotism. The idea that the best thing anyone can do is get a gun and go kill as the most patriotic act, no matter how necessary we may think that may ultimately be, does a disservice to all the others who are out there making other's lives better all over the world.
There are some who want to prepare--and actually to fight. There are some who want to prepare--and fight for peace.
Whatever your approach and action, we can all be patriots if we stay aware about the policies that affect not only our lives, but others around the world. And holding our elected officials responsible to implement the decisions that we believe reflect the best we have to offer.
Brent, you're being weaselly with the definition of the term "patriot."
To me, and i think most people, a "patriot" is someone who is willing to sacrifice for his or her country. Patriots are not limited to Americans sacrificing for the U.S.A., but an American who does sacrifice for this country is a patriot.
A health care worker who risks disease to comfort and heal the sick is noble. But their nobility deserves a label different from "patriot." Not a higher label, or a lower label. A different label.
I strongly disagree with your definition of "patriotism." Simply "holding our elected officials responsible to implement the decisions that we believe" is not "patriotism." That's cheapening the price of patriotism way too far. I think the word you are looking for, for your standard, is simply "citizenship."
Ranger Tillman was willing to sacrifice a lucrative NFL career -- even if it was with the A-Cards -- and that is truly patriotism. Tillman is a true patriot under any usable definition of that term.
[ April 21, 2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]
To me, and i think most people, a "patriot" is someone who is willing to sacrifice for his or her country. Patriots are not limited to Americans sacrificing for the U.S.A., but an American who does sacrifice for this country is a patriot.
A health care worker who risks disease to comfort and heal the sick is noble. But their nobility deserves a label different from "patriot." Not a higher label, or a lower label. A different label.
I strongly disagree with your definition of "patriotism." Simply "holding our elected officials responsible to implement the decisions that we believe" is not "patriotism." That's cheapening the price of patriotism way too far. I think the word you are looking for, for your standard, is simply "citizenship."
Ranger Tillman was willing to sacrifice a lucrative NFL career -- even if it was with the A-Cards -- and that is truly patriotism. Tillman is a true patriot under any usable definition of that term.
[ April 21, 2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Charlie in the Trees ]
I guess you'll have to include Webster as a weasel too:
paˇtriˇotˇism
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country
paˇtriˇot
Date: 1605
: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests
My point was to broaden our traditional [as pointed out by the article] definition of what it means to be a patriot. Isn't it really for your country if you're preventing a disease from becoming an epidemic? Isn't that being "willing to sacrifice for his or her country"? Some other countries allow national service to be done in a number of different ways that don't involve being in combat.
I don't think this cheapens patriotism as all: in fact, quite the contrary. To me patriotism is taking an active part to strengthen your country, while:
citˇiˇzenˇship
Date: 1611
1 : the status of being a citizen
2 a : membership in a community (as a college) b : the quality of an individual's response to membership in a
community
is a status, not requiring any action at all.
I notice that for you equate--and many others who've written about it--"sacrifice a lucractive NFL career." So who's really "cheapening" patriotism here in the end?
paˇtriˇotˇism
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country
paˇtriˇot
Date: 1605
: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests
My point was to broaden our traditional [as pointed out by the article] definition of what it means to be a patriot. Isn't it really for your country if you're preventing a disease from becoming an epidemic? Isn't that being "willing to sacrifice for his or her country"? Some other countries allow national service to be done in a number of different ways that don't involve being in combat.
I don't think this cheapens patriotism as all: in fact, quite the contrary. To me patriotism is taking an active part to strengthen your country, while:
citˇiˇzenˇship
Date: 1611
1 : the status of being a citizen
2 a : membership in a community (as a college) b : the quality of an individual's response to membership in a
community
is a status, not requiring any action at all.
I notice that for you equate--and many others who've written about it--"sacrifice a lucractive NFL career." So who's really "cheapening" patriotism here in the end?
I'm less than impressed with David Robinson's remarks. IIRC, his commitment was for somewhat longer than two years, but he successfully appealed for an early release so he could play professional basketball. I'm sure I can dig this up.
QUOTE
San Antonio Spurs center David Robinson, who attended the U.S. Naval Academy and served a two-year military commitment before joining the NBA, is the exception today, not the rule.
....
David Robinson has been a critic of athletes who have spoken out against the U.S. war in Iraq.
....
David Robinson has been a critic of athletes who have spoken out against the U.S. war in Iraq.
SF Chronicle article on Pat Tillman. Several new interesting details.
QUOTE
Interviews also show a side of Pat Tillman not widely known — a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books on World War II and Winston Churchill to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author.
I sure someone like the vile Ann Coulter will begin attacking him now.
I was going to post this in a new subject, but it fits with this article. An advertisement for a website called gay patriot or something like this on Outsports is essentially saying you don't have to be a Democrat since you are gay. However, it goes on to say that Republicans are "pro-military, pro-freedom, pro-American".
Not the most tasteful of ads.
Not the most tasteful of ads.
And more from that SF Chronicle article, which yet again reveals the extent of the lies and propaganda "catapulted" by the vile administration now in office:
QUOTE
Baer, who served with Tillman for more than a year in Iraq and Afghanistan, told one anecdote that took place during the March 2003 invasion as the Rangers moved up through southern Iraq.
“I can see it like a movie screen,” Baer said. “We were outside of (a city in southern Iraq) watching as bombs were dropping on the town. We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we weren’t in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f— illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.”
Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bush’s Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry.
Senior Chief Petty Officer Stephen White — a Navy SEAL who served with Pat and Kevin for four months in Iraq and was the only military member to speak at Tillman’s memorial — said Pat “wasn’t very fired up about being in Iraq” and instead wanted to go fight al Qaeda in Afghanistan. He said both Pat and Kevin (who has a degree in philosophy) “were amazingly well-read individuals … very firm in some of their beliefs, their political and religious or not so religious beliefs.”
Baer recalled that Tillman encouraged him in his ambitions as an amateur poet. “I would read him my poems, and we would talk about them,” Baer said. “He helped me grow as an individual.”
Will the "liberal" MSM start covering this coverup? Or does it not fit with the right-wing corporate agenda?
“I can see it like a movie screen,” Baer said. “We were outside of (a city in southern Iraq) watching as bombs were dropping on the town. We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we weren’t in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f— illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.”
Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bush’s Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry.
Senior Chief Petty Officer Stephen White — a Navy SEAL who served with Pat and Kevin for four months in Iraq and was the only military member to speak at Tillman’s memorial — said Pat “wasn’t very fired up about being in Iraq” and instead wanted to go fight al Qaeda in Afghanistan. He said both Pat and Kevin (who has a degree in philosophy) “were amazingly well-read individuals … very firm in some of their beliefs, their political and religious or not so religious beliefs.”
Baer recalled that Tillman encouraged him in his ambitions as an amateur poet. “I would read him my poems, and we would talk about them,” Baer said. “He helped me grow as an individual.”
QUOTE
shawnq:
I sure someone like the vile Ann Coulter will begin attacking him now.
Well that didn't take long. I guess the vile Ann Coulter thinks Pat Tillman's mom is lying or something. From Media Matters: I sure someone like the vile Ann Coulter will begin attacking him now.
QUOTE
COLMES: -- in an article about Pat Tillman, who it is now said it was a Noam Chomsky fan, was going to vote for John Kerry, was against the war in Iraq. And you referred to him as "virtuous, pure, masculine like only an American male can be." I wonder if you still would say those things, knowing now what we have learned about Pat Tillman. He was a John Kerry supporter.
COULTER: Did you get that from a document from CBS News?
COLMES: No, but that's what you said, so I wondered if you would retract that, given what you say about liberals and Democrats.
COULTER: No. But I don't believe it.
I doubt there a person more horrible than the vile Ann Coulter that's regularly allowed to be on television.
COULTER: Did you get that from a document from CBS News?
COLMES: No, but that's what you said, so I wondered if you would retract that, given what you say about liberals and Democrats.
COULTER: No. But I don't believe it.
Just heard this on the radio. What a true hero, giving up fame and money to defend his country (regardless of your personal opinion on the war).
You guys are fast. It's CNN Breaking News too.
"Former NFL player Pat Tillman killed in action while serving in U.S. Army in Afghanistan, CNN confirms. Details soon."
"Former NFL player Pat Tillman killed in action while serving in U.S. Army in Afghanistan, CNN confirms. Details soon."
This is terrible news. If the defense department allows his coffin to be shown, another hypocrisy will be exposed.
Pat Tillman gave up the NFL to fight for his country in Afganistan. He is a true hero, unlike those here who talk a big game but would never go do it themselves.
I pray for his family and friends.
[ April 23, 2004, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Denver Fan ]
I pray for his family and friends.
[ April 23, 2004, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Denver Fan ]
My brother-in-law is in over there right now, in East Baghdad. This is what we fear the most.
I feel so bad for his family, especially his brother who he joined with.
I feel so bad for his family, especially his brother who he joined with.
I just saw this on CNN.com. What a terrible tragedy, as it is when any of our armed forces are killed in service. His family has so much to be proud of. I hope we can refrain from the snarkly political comments like the one above and instead just pay tribute to an American who made the ultimate sacrifice.
Here is another great story about him that was written before his death today. Before some posters get on here and start with the "his death is no more tragic than any other soldier's death" speech, I just want to reiterate that this guy was deeply touched by the 9/11 attacks, and walked away from a multi-million dollar contract, and thwarted media attention away from his training and his actual service duty overseas. He was a hero in my book and his and all of the other soldiers' deaths should not go unnoticed.
http://www.nfl.com/insider/story/5701425
[ April 23, 2004, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: SmoothRon ]
http://www.nfl.com/insider/story/5701425
[ April 23, 2004, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: SmoothRon ]
QUOTE
Munson Man:
I hope we can refrain from the snarkly political comments like the one above
Agreed, and we can also refrain from personal attacks like another comment above.I hope we can refrain from the snarkly political comments like the one above
Married Lady, I hope your brother-in-law makes it home safely.
Incredibly sad. His death is not more tragic than the other soldier's but for those of us who do not know anybody that is serving our country, he puts a face on the soldiers, and makes the tragedies of war a bit more real.
Married Lady, my thoughts and prayers for you and your family for the safe return of your brother-in-law.
Married Lady, my thoughts and prayers for you and your family for the safe return of your brother-in-law.
All those words that are thrown around very loosely nowadays: hero, sacrifice, commitment, valour.
He brought them to life.
This is really sad.
He brought them to life.
This is really sad.
So sorry to hear this news. 
I'm sure there are very few people who could do what he did in walking away from all that money and a professional sports career in order to serve his country. Thanks Pat!
I'm sure there are very few people who could do what he did in walking away from all that money and a professional sports career in order to serve his country. Thanks Pat!
What a tragic story!....talk about a true American hero -- how many people who walk away from a $3.6 million, 3 yr contract as an NFL player to enlist in the Army and earn approx $18,000 per year?....Pat, who was only 27 years old, was certainly no "dumb jock", either, as he graduated summa cum laude....his younger brother Kevin, who was a minor league baseball prospect in the Cleveland Indians organization and is in the same platoon, thankfully was not one of the fatalities.
My heart goes out to the Tillman family....I hope that Paul Tagliabue recognizes Pat at the draft tomorrow and, more importantly, that all the young 20-something guys who are drafted and celebrating their newfound "wealth" stop and think about the decision and ultimate sacrifice that Pat Tillman made....may he rest in peace.
[ April 23, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: gamecock ]
My heart goes out to the Tillman family....I hope that Paul Tagliabue recognizes Pat at the draft tomorrow and, more importantly, that all the young 20-something guys who are drafted and celebrating their newfound "wealth" stop and think about the decision and ultimate sacrifice that Pat Tillman made....may he rest in peace.
[ April 23, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: gamecock ]
Oh. F**k. (sniff)
We've got our fingers crossed for you, Married Lady.
We've got our fingers crossed for you, Married Lady.
While I was doing the lock-up of the thread in the NFL board, this message was posted.
By Shore
Very tragic. I remember reading about him in the Times, and thinking how amazing it was for him to do this, and beyond my understanding to serve.
By Shore
Very tragic. I remember reading about him in the Times, and thinking how amazing it was for him to do this, and beyond my understanding to serve.
A TRUE AMERICAN HERO. My prayers go out to his family.
golfer 20, when did Rice say this?
GatorJamie: well said. It seems somehow fitting that on the day the most high-profile of those serving in Afghanistan and Iraq dies, newspapers across the country have featured the photograph of American flag-draped coffins returning home. All these deaths are tragic.
Married Lady, all good thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.
~Adam
Married Lady, all good thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.
~Adam
QUOTE
Cyd at Outsports:
golfer 20, when did Rice say this?
It's in this ESPN.com column from last year regarding Tillman in particular and athletes serving (or not serving) in the military in general:golfer 20, when did Rice say this?
QUOTE
And while there has been an outpouring of support for the U.S. troops from athletes in all sports, no other high-profile professional athlete has followed Tillman's selfless example. In fact, former Cardinals teammate Simeon Rice, now a member of the Super Bowl champion-Tampa Bay Buccaneers, disparaged Tillman in an interview on Jim Rome's radio show last month.
"He really wasn't that good, not really," Rice said. "He was good enough to play in Arizona, [but] that's just like the XFL."
After several more promptings from Rome, Rice allowed, "I think it's very admirable, actually. You've got to give kudos to a guy like that because he did it for his own reasons. Maybe it's the Rambo movies, maybe it's Sylvester Stallone, Rocky, whatever compels him."
"He really wasn't that good, not really," Rice said. "He was good enough to play in Arizona, [but] that's just like the XFL."
After several more promptings from Rome, Rice allowed, "I think it's very admirable, actually. You've got to give kudos to a guy like that because he did it for his own reasons. Maybe it's the Rambo movies, maybe it's Sylvester Stallone, Rocky, whatever compels him."
Tillman was one of very few beloved athletes in PHX. Was a stud as ASU. Went to play for the hometown cardzzzz, turned down money to stay with the cards. Then turned down money from them to go do something he truely believed in.
All the time shying away from the public wanting to know about his decision.
The morning hack on the sports program (and az republic writer) this morning was even a bit choked up. Seems all of the guys in the media of this town, who spent time with him or knew him, were really saddened by this.
That speaks volumes about a guy who did things his own way. Probably never felt bad about his decision to leave the NFL, and would not want the attention he is now getting.
All the time shying away from the public wanting to know about his decision.
The morning hack on the sports program (and az republic writer) this morning was even a bit choked up. Seems all of the guys in the media of this town, who spent time with him or knew him, were really saddened by this.
That speaks volumes about a guy who did things his own way. Probably never felt bad about his decision to leave the NFL, and would not want the attention he is now getting.
I'm glad Simeon Rice's comments were put in the proper context. While his remarks about Pat Tillman as a player may have been disparaging, at least they were spoken well before his death in Afghanistan, not today, as golfer20's post implied (at least to me).
I remember hearing about Tillman's post-9/11 decision a couple years ago, and admired him for it. While he certainly deserves recognition and gratitude for his contribution, the deaths of all the faceless, anonymous soldiers and innocent civilians of all nationalities are no less tragic.
I remember hearing about Tillman's post-9/11 decision a couple years ago, and admired him for it. While he certainly deserves recognition and gratitude for his contribution, the deaths of all the faceless, anonymous soldiers and innocent civilians of all nationalities are no less tragic.
Sorry, I should have noted that he said that a month ago.
Very sad news...and he was fighting a war that needed to be fought....
QUOTE
golfer 20:
Sorry, I should have noted that he said that a month ago.
The article was written in 2003. He said it a year ago. Even so, it was a stupid thing to say. Maybe now Rice will give it more serious thought.
Sorry, I should have noted that he said that a month ago.
Thanks everyone for their kind thoughts and prayers for my brother-in-law.
I have a favored nephew who finished basic training in the air force in Texas last year. I suspect he believes the military will be a means to escape the discrimination he thinks he suffered in his job, support the out-of-wedlock child that he denied for about a year, eventually pay for a higher education that would take longer for him to complete than someone more academically inclined. I think his case is more typical of those dieing overseas now. I suppose Pat Tillman is more like John Kerry, who lived.
[ April 24, 2004, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
[ April 24, 2004, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: sportinlife ]
After 9/11, I vaguely recall a story about some guy who gave up a contract with an NFL team to join the armed forces of America. Today, I was reminded in better detail of that guy, Pat Tillman, and what he stood for.
Mr. Tillman was not about capturing attention by turning down money, or getting the limelight for being a Ranger, a husband, a father, a patriot... Mr. Tillman was about bravery.
In our society, bravery is a thing of the past; a concept utilized for whimsical fiction; and is something most people are too afraid to grasp.
Mr. Tillman taught me that the instrinsic value of my priveledges are present due to the men and women who fought for these rights, and died for these rights.
I wonder if every American would have Pat's bravery. Not the bravery to battle, we have courageous men and women right now fighting and dying for the USA, but the bravery to walk away from large sums of money, financial stability, some media fame, a nice house, nice cars; just walk away from all of the things you've dreamed of because you put the needs of others ahead of your own.
Mr. Tillman was not about capturing attention by turning down money, or getting the limelight for being a Ranger, a husband, a father, a patriot... Mr. Tillman was about bravery.
In our society, bravery is a thing of the past; a concept utilized for whimsical fiction; and is something most people are too afraid to grasp.
Mr. Tillman taught me that the instrinsic value of my priveledges are present due to the men and women who fought for these rights, and died for these rights.
I wonder if every American would have Pat's bravery. Not the bravery to battle, we have courageous men and women right now fighting and dying for the USA, but the bravery to walk away from large sums of money, financial stability, some media fame, a nice house, nice cars; just walk away from all of the things you've dreamed of because you put the needs of others ahead of your own.
What a sad story, Pat was and is a true American hero. I will always hold the deepest respect for him and his brother. To give up what they had to join not just the Army but the Rangers is just incredible. The world lost a incredible person yesterday and my prayers are with his family.
They have a very moving ceremony in AFghanistan when someone dies and the body leaves the country. I was in tears several times viewing the ceremony when I was there. Please make sure you say a prayer for Pat today but also remember all the soldiers still in Afghanistan and Iraq. I have no doubt he would want that.
They have a very moving ceremony in AFghanistan when someone dies and the body leaves the country. I was in tears several times viewing the ceremony when I was there. Please make sure you say a prayer for Pat today but also remember all the soldiers still in Afghanistan and Iraq. I have no doubt he would want that.
Pat Tillman was a Ranger. An Afghan militiaman fighting alongside him was also killed.
azairforce and others:
Do you know of any sites that are good for reading up on how our forces are faring in Afghanistan? I'm particularly interested how the various units work (on their own and with others), as well as how they work with Afghanis.
azairforce and others:
Do you know of any sites that are good for reading up on how our forces are faring in Afghanistan? I'm particularly interested how the various units work (on their own and with others), as well as how they work with Afghanis.
Tom
not sure there are any websites for that, they keep the information pretty close to the vest. I'll be happy to tell you the stuff that I know from when I was there. Its a very interesting situation there, they are trying to build up the Afghan Army. Afghanistan is still a pretty dangerous country especially along the Pakistan border. I will never forget the place, a very very poor country with deserted Russian tanks, planes, terrian vehicles everywhere and there are still millions of mines left.
not sure there are any websites for that, they keep the information pretty close to the vest. I'll be happy to tell you the stuff that I know from when I was there. Its a very interesting situation there, they are trying to build up the Afghan Army. Afghanistan is still a pretty dangerous country especially along the Pakistan border. I will never forget the place, a very very poor country with deserted Russian tanks, planes, terrian vehicles everywhere and there are still millions of mines left.
az: thanks anyway. You must be really proud to have been in Operation Enduring Freedom. The more I read about the first days, the more amazed I am at what you guys accomplished. And, yes, the terrain must have been really tough. I went to the Khyber Pass back in 1990. I recall being scared as hell (partly because it was by way of a rickety helicopter from Peshawar), and I can't imagine the nerves of steel it must have taken to be out in places like that in war conditions. Did you get to train any Afghanis?
Back to the topic: The more you read about Tillman, the more admirable he seems. While Sportinlife's nephew's bio sure is a lot more representative of our troops, it's not something that was lost on Tillman. I've read a couple of stories where people who knew him said he was fully aware, and appreciated, the sacrifices being made by men and women who were in military as a result of economic conscription. Apparently that played a role in why he didn't want publicity once he was in training/in the Rangers.
[ April 24, 2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: TomFord ]
Back to the topic: The more you read about Tillman, the more admirable he seems. While Sportinlife's nephew's bio sure is a lot more representative of our troops, it's not something that was lost on Tillman. I've read a couple of stories where people who knew him said he was fully aware, and appreciated, the sacrifices being made by men and women who were in military as a result of economic conscription. Apparently that played a role in why he didn't want publicity once he was in training/in the Rangers.
[ April 24, 2004, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: TomFord ]
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