Jeremy Shockey is a young immature person, as proven by his off field antics. This is not the first time he has been in the headlines for stupid behavior. He obviously has not been exposed to a greater culture outside is own. One can not expect him to have the open mind we would hope for, when he has no guidance there. Young athletes always say stupid things, because they are not used to being in the spotlight and being interviewed. It takes time and maturity. I am quite disappointed by his words and his beliefs, I can only hope that living in NYC will help broaden his views of the outside world in which he lives.

MSU, funny thing you asked if I've ever "faked" it. I'm almost ashamed to say this, but I have. You've just given me something to think about. (why I did "fake" it)

Fortunately, I never felt threatened in the manner a gay man would in a rednecks world. (I've been accosted by old drag queens, yecch!, and grabbed and fondled) For the record, I was in theater for some time, worked as a youth parking cars at gay nightclubs and working in numerous restaurants as well as a primarily "gay" restaurant.

I'm trying to put how I felt in words... so please bear with me. I never felt in danger because of my sexuality. I've felt like an object on a nearly constant basis, which was a weird mix of feelings. While I've never had the desire to be with a guy, I wasn't offended by those who had that desire to be with me. (if they were good looking, it was sort of flattering) I wish it was easier to explain, but I guess I just lived the situations I was in as part of my "normal" life.

What is the problem here did he offend you? Please give me a break everyone on this web site knows the reason why no professional player has come out. Who cares what he thinks?This is America and the great thing is if I do not like what is on the channel I turn tturn to another channel. If I do not agree with what someone says or does does not make them wrong just makes their opinion different than mine. The only reason why you feel he is wrong is that it does not feel the way most of you do. Being an athlete who played sports I can tell you I would feel uncomfortable if someone on my team had come out or if their were women walking around the locker room. You want someone who came out Roy Simmons NYG OL in the late 70's early 80's. He was shunned by his team probably cost him his career. Do you think by one guy or woman who comes out is going to change the attitude of the other 52 players on his football team. If you do your crazy. I do not want to hear some day we all hope that will change and that your accepted and all. Be real you are less than 6% of the population. Not too many people even give your cause a second thought. Is that wrong, no it is their perogative. To me I do not care who is or who isn't gay. Have friends who are. What they don't do is flaunt it. I do not flaunt me being heterosexual why do Homosexuals have to flaunt themselves being Gay? I do not care what your preference is or what goes on behind someone else's door. Why, do you continue to try and force yourselves down everyone else's throat ( no pun intended there). So he stated what he thought, does this make him a bad person. No it does not. It means he offended 6% of the population with his comments. I am sure he is not the only one who has offended some minority group during his life time. How many have you offended in yours?

It's interesting and relieving to see the views of openly straight guys on this site. I was wondering if any of them even cared enough to comment.

Their response to this issue seems to very much parallel that of white gay guys when entering a discussion about an issue that primarily concerns black gay guys. It always surprises me how difficult it is for most people, and I include myself, to truly put themselves into someone elses shoes. I keep trying and I think the self-proclaimed straight guys on this thread are doing the same.

I think that should be applauded.

As a black person I've had some practice being a minority and, though the parallel has its limits, dealing with the subtleties of racism was good preparation for understanding homophobia.

I'm not surprised that someone who has always lived as a member of a majority has more difficulty fully understanding the motivations and feelings of a member of a minority, even after temporary exposure to the experience of being a minority

I think the straight posters here are at least making an effort.

All I can say to them is "You go guys." No snap after that.

Now you go and throw another element of being a black gay man. It has nothing to do with living in the majority. No one would know you were in the minority unless you tell them. No, I'm not saying stay in the so called closet. I'm sure you frequent places where there are many people who are just like yourself. This is where the problem lies. Most of you want more, in fact, much more than people are willing to give. If you are who are live that way who cares. Why do you believe that you have the right to try and brain wash everyone to your way of thinking. I have no problem with your preference, it is your preference, not mine. So why is it that you have to force your prefernce upon every one else. Does it really make a difference if for example Julia Roberts, was gay. Would it mean that she is now considered better than someone else? I'll bet now that Rosie is finally out you all love her too. Come on give me a break. Just sick of every different group in this country wanting their own distinction. This is the United States we are Americans. Why do you call your self African-American. No you are American. Same goes for every other minority group. If you stopped acting like a minority and more like the majority you would be accepted faster. The sooner you all figure that out the better it will be for everyone.

Sportinlife... You've covered a few sensitive things in your post. While I've constantly tried to put myself in others shoes, I've never truly been in them. I can empathize all I want, but I know in my heart that I honestly do not know what it is like to be anything but who I am. As an employee of mine told me last year; "you're THE man... you just need to decide whether you're a good man or a bad man". That statement cemented in my mind how others perceive me and how helpless I was to change it regardless of how I try. I can only live my life as I see fit. If others cannot see us for who we are, well, it's their loss.

Thanks Too,
Thank you for letting us in on the situations that shape your perspective. I also appreciate your honesty on the "Faking it" issue, and would be interested in hearing what you have to say once you get your thoughts put togeather (as you said you were trying to do).

On a side note: I have been felt up by my fair share of Drag Queens too, and I agree. If I don't know them, yeck!

To shockeytellsthetruth, thanks for your honesty too. I haven't had the opprotunity to hang out with my fraternity in a couple of years, so I had forgotten what a straight, but not narrow attitude sounds like. It's not that you are homophobic, or anything like that, it's just that being gay is so far removed from anything that you encounter or think about on a daily basis that you don't or can't understand why it's even an issue. I'm ok with everyone out there who holds that opinion, it's just that 99% of people who hold that opinion don't JUST hold that opinion. They hold the opinion that gay people can do what they want, but they just shouldn't throw it in their faces. The problem with this ideology is, what we consider normal interaction with one another, and with our partners, is what you would consider throwing it in your face. For example, in the bar in my small town here, guys give their chicks a peck on the cheek before they head to the bathroom all the time. Now, I ask you this, if I were to give my guy a peck on the cheek before heading to the bathroom in the middle of the bar, do you think that I would make it out of the bathroom in one piece? That is where the heart of the issue lies, not in the fact that special rights, or anything else has been asked for, it's a matter of People not realizing what they are doing. Live and let live, only works if you can step in the other person's shoes while you're letting them live.

Ok, that's about all I can muster for now. Gota go. Thanks for reading.

Hi, we've gotten a ton of hate mail on this and was wondering if people heard it mentioned elsewhere. Someone said Rome discussed it.

We are posting some of the mail soon.

Shockeytellsthetruth, you deny flaunting your heterosexuality. So you've never hugged, kissed or held hands with a woman in public? You've never mentioned your wife or girlfriend to a co-worker? You've never expressed an appreciation for a sexy woman? Or mentioned what a great time you had at a bar that is a known hangout for straight people? The point is, if any of Shockey's teammates were to do any of these things with another man, he "wouldn't stand for it". That sure sounds to me like a threat to drive them out of the workplace (which, by the way, would be illegal in New York state).

And I have never understood why people have this strange notion that freedom of speech means that you can say anything you like no one can criticize your opinions. If he has freedom of speech, so do I.

Damn Shockey...breathe between those sentences.

First, please don't group all of "us" as one. The gay community is as diverse in opinions on society as the rest of society is. You can read some of the threads in the P&R section to know this is true.

As far as wanting more? Don't we have more? Supposedly, we make more $$$ than everyone and have more disposable $$$ to spend. What more could we possibly want?

As far as going to places where only gays hang out. Man, haven't you heard, we even have more fun than you. Why do you think the girls on Sex in the City went to the gay bar to have fun? What more could we possibly want?

Have you ever been fired from a job because you were straight? Have you ever been ostracised by your family because you were straight? Have you ever been turned away from their significant others funeral because they were straight? I bet you there are guys here on this board that could answer yes to each of those questions.

As far as what "we" want? I want to be able to know that, if I were to be in an accident that my partner (11 years) would be the one in charge of me. He would be the one making all medical decisions period. I want to be able to know that, if I were killed in an accident, that the government would recognize that he inherits 100% of everything I have; just as any spouse would. I want to be able to list him as my beneficiary on my 401k papers without my provider raising an eye brow.

I appreciate hearing your opinions and I hope I will learn from your postings. I only hope that you will do the same. Again, glad to have you here.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Aubie in Bham ]

Jim, that Daily News piece was picked up by the AP so it's everywhere now.

It's still all about the shower, isn't it, STTT? Buddy, get over yourself.

Meanwhile, some very thoughtful replies here, and we're likely to see more posts at this level of comprehension, so please be vigilant. Let's try not to let this thread descend into apologetics.

Here are a few sites to point those who wish to argue:
Homosexuality: Common Questions & Statements Addressed
So Your Friend is Gay?
Outsports, the Website

On the home page of espn.com, the Shockey "apology" appears. Way to go, Cyd and Jim--you guys really are really making a difference!

JC I do not show my wife public display's of affection other than holding her hand. I have no problem with two women or two men holding hands.This is not the is the flaunting I am talking about. The flaunting are those who walk and act like prostitutes do to the heterosexual race. When someone goes to far than I have a problem with it. If I am sitting in a bar and a pretty girl goes by and I comment about it. I am commenting to my friend not tapping someone who I never met on the shoulder to say look at that.By the way JC what is a known hangout for heterosexuals? The last I checked unless you are exclusively at a gay bar or a gay hangout the majority of the people anywhere are heterosexual? I know you may not believe that but it is true. As for your comment about the work place, spare me the legalize. Freedom of Speech has now been trampled because of sexual harassment cases. Now I have a question for you? If someone was in your job and all they did was want to listen to Christian music or talk about God do you shun them? Or is it okay because they are Jesus Freaks?

Leave Shockey alone. He made a mistake. You don't like homophobes. He doesn't like homos. Let it go.

RedSox it is not about the shower to me that is the point. I don't care. I'll bet that after I go to the gym and work out and then shower or walk around the locker room there have been a few gay men in there at the same time. I did not ask them their preference so I would not know they were or were not gay. That is my point. Once you make it an issue so will everyone else. If you missed my point I hope this clarifies it for you.

I think it is worse that Shockey would find the need to apologize. If he is uncomfortable and/or unhappy about having to shower or bunk with gays, that is his right to feel that way. Why should he apologize...just to be politically correct so as not to hurt anybody's feelings. Well he was expressing his own feelings, and that shouldn't be a crime. There are many people who have a problem with being gay, for religious reasons, for example. Should they not feel that way, just to prevent someone else's feelings from being hurt, or would that be infringing on their right to have whatever religious beliefs they choose.

Damn Shockey, that's exactly what I'm saying.

STTT, sorry to misinterpret, I get your point of view. Have a nice day.

As for the religeon thing, we had a situation like that here at work. The person was pretty religeous, but didn't push it in anyone's face. The only thing he did do was keep a bible on his shelf, and read it during breaks, at his desk.

It was determined for some reason (that I can not and will not ever understand) that he should not be able to read the bible at his desk. If he went to his car, he could read it, but not at his desk. I think this is totally rediculous personally, because he was not vocal, and unless you knew him, you had no idea what he was reading.

I believe that your question was more about shunning them. I believe that noone should be forced to Hang out with another person. If during work he was going off about church and stuff, I would honestly tell him that work is not the place to be talking about religeon, and leave it at that. This has actually happened to me. The person stopped and was not offended in the slightest, and neither was I. I would not, and could not stop enteracting with that person on a professional basis, based on their religeon. In an unprotected work environment people can and do stop giving work to people, and refuse to work with people based solely on their orientation. Is that right?

Now, on the other hand, I do not walk around all day telling people about my sex life, because I don't want to hear about everyone else's sex life either. However, if someone comes in and says that his partner was sick and he had to help him that morning, that should be taken along the same lines at someone talking about their Wife or husband. But you and I both know, that if I were to throw that out there in a work environment that was unprotected, that the mood would change immediately, depending on people's level of acceptance. Should these people be allowed to legally say, due to my life with outside of the office, they should be able to have the right to refuse to work with me? Or that they should be able to sling crap at me, even if I don't ever mention my parnter again? I mean seriously. What if someone at your company decided to start a rumor that you were gay, and you weren't. People started to shun you based on something you never did. Well the same thing applies to me, considering that I have never mentioned a partner, and I don't even have one right now, but if people found out and started treating me different, techincially there would be nothing I could do about it. Is that fair? It's called common sense. Should anyone have any job, or housing, or freedom taken away from them based solely on their real or percieved sexual orientation?

I think the answer to that is no.

I'll state it up front. I'm sick to DEATH of having to explain things about my life to straight guys. While the intellectual side of me says "Be patient, at least they're appearing to be open to discussion", I really, really resent that the onus is on gays & lesbians to be patient and educational. At the risk of incurring the wrath of YellaDawg , this is what it must feel like when blacks have to explain to cement-head whites that no, not all blacks are gang members. Grrrrr..... *cough* Anyways... [quote]Well he was expressing his own feelings, and that shouldn't be a crime. There are many people who have a problem with being gay, for religious reasons, for example. Should they not feel that way, just to prevent someone else's feelings from being hurt, or would that be infringing on their right to have whatever religious beliefs they choose

---

No, religious people can think whatever they want. I, for one, loathe religion, but you won't see me going on to religious websites and mocking them for being supersticious boneheads. It's called common courtesy. And frankly, the whole "well, they're allowed to disapprove because of their religious convictions" argument is a big pile of poo because it's selective. Racists use the story of Ham being exiled to justify their hatred of blacks. So f**kin' what? Adultery is punishable by death in the Bible, but we don't see HETERO ADULTERERS taken to the town square and beaten to death, do we? There's numerous other examples of things the Bible disapproves of in very strong terms but heteros ignore them because it would inconvenience them.

And again, does it really need repeating? Jeremy Shockey can think whatever the hell he wants. It's depressing how people justify their homophobia by claiming that queers are 1984-like Thought Police. But just as I would justifiably expect to get mocked (or worse) for saying "All Jews are greedy Christ-killers" or "Blacks are lazy, shiftless no-goods", Shockey has to take the heat for his comments. Maybe it's just PC bullshit and maybe it's just an example of how homophobia is still there but it's not fashionable to spout off about it, but I, for one, am tired beyond words of picking up the paper and seeing the same old boring bullshit--can't homophobes come up with some new lies to obsess about?--being spouted off.

And the whole "I don't care if you're gay but why do you have to flaunt it" crap is a total lie. You DO care if we're gay. Quit acting like if we all just diappeared off the radars--that's radars, not gaydars--of heteros by going totally back in to the closet that homophobia would disappear, that it's OUR FAULT that hetero's, in the main, remain so clueless. When hetero's are willing to give up the over 1,300 tax benefits that being married straights brings them, for example, then I'll believe that it's not more about protecting their position than radical queers demanding "special rights".

*Sigh* Time to go to lunch, get a combo burrito and take some deep breaths.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

Jim Allen -

Thank you, thank you and THANK YOU!

objectiveobserver posted the message below to another thread. The topic is closed which prevents response so I've cut/pasted it below.

objectiveobserver
Member # 1167
posted September 27, 2002 12:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You guys get all up in arms about the Jeremy Shockey comments and then you turn around and belittle the guy with all kinds of trash and drivel. Yeah, he said some things he shouldn't have...appearing on Howard Stern was his first mistake...but for crying out loud, why can't you people be consistent.

Why is it that gay people can get all upset when someone like Shockey says something slightly offensive, but then turn around and blatantly demean and belittle him and anyone associated with him (I read a few posts in the Jeremy Shockey thread about "hoping the Giants lose" and calling Shockey and some of those associated with him all kinds of defaming names).

Make up your minds, are you "better" than the trash talkers, or are you one of them? This whole "gay double standard" is just lame lame lame...you people are allowed to speak your mind and say as you please, but if those who don't agree with you speak up...they are evil vermin who are immediately ostracized (as I'm sure this post will be very soon).

If you are free to have and express your opinion...why aren't the people who disagree with you allowed that same freedom? I, for one, think it would be a tragedy if there were an openly gay player in the NFL. Football is a SPORT...not a podium for the gay movement to speak from. Can't you people get that through your head...some of us don't WANT to be bombarded with homosexuality. You don't see people flaunting the fact that they are straight and playing in the NFL do you? I'd be offended if they did.

So it all boils down to this: Today Jeremy Shockey is the bane of the gay community because of his beliefs (he obviously doesn't agree with the homosexual lifestyle). Would he be your hero if he had answered the question, "yeah, I hope there are gay people in the NFL"? Of course he would...it's not that Jeremey Shockey spoke his mind that bothers you people, its that when he spoke his mind he didn't agree with your views.

To demonstrate that you people seem to have a double standard, consider the following question: If Jeremy Shockey had made the exact same comments about straight people...would you be all up in arms then - or would he instantly become a hero and an icon for the Gay community?

...I think you know the answer to that question...

JIM ALLEN you say religion " I, for one, loathe religion, but you won't see me going on to religious websites and mocking them for being superstisious boneheads." Now JIM what a shock you feel this way about religion. Right now not many religions are too accepting of the gay life style. The fact is most people who are law makers in this country do believe in God. They do believe in the Bible, where homosexuality is written about being wrong. Now to me if I was you and I'm not, you would love to see one of 2 things happen. 1. destroy religion as we know it today try and make it to look like a joke so that people would stop believing thereby eliminating an argument against homosexuality. 2. start to make more religions tolerent of your lifestyle. This would help ease some of the radicals who believe you should have no rights. Now all this being said which do you think is your best chance to happen. It is too bad JIM sounds like you are the one who wants to be selective. Just because some Hetero's who read or follow the Bible, follow only what is in their best interest does not mean all do. If you believe that then you are lumping everyone in together which you ask people not to do to your group.
"When hetero's are willing to give up the over 1,300 tax benefits that being married straights brings them, for example, then I'll believe that it's not more about protecting their position than radical queers demanding "special rights"." Now here is the quote that gets me JIM. Is this all about the right to believe and to live the way you want (which in this country you are allowed to do) or is it just about the money? Sounds like it is just about the money to you.
I have always learned that there are some things people will no accept nor agree with. I also learned that if you want something bad enough you have to make sacrifices. Sounds like you want everything given to you without earning it. This is where I believe you come off looking bad. I am in the financial industry and if one of my clients passes away the law entitles the beneficiary to the assets. Your problem is not with the law or the government but with the lawyers and the families who were not accepting of the lifestyle, correct? It is not the government who fights your wills and documents it is the families and the lawyers.
The flaunting you know what I mean, there is more good that gets do by your groups behind the scenes not when you are thrust onto to everyone. You think Shockey should apologize, why what did he do. Your group hates hetero's as much as the other way around. So now you want people who your group also hates to come out and embrace you. That is kind of tough don't you think.

[quote]Now you go and throw another element of being a black gay man.

---

I want to clarify that I consider a decision to be openly gay a choice or preference, to BE gay is to me as indelible as my skin color. The fact that I am not usually assumed to be gay from my behavior does not make other analogies between my gayness and skin color irrelevant.

[quote]It has nothing to do with living in the majority.

---

I lived in a "majority" up to the age of about 13 when I first went to an integrated school and met people of other races who shared my interests in intellectual and academic pursuits. It's not a guarantee of openmindedness or narrowmindednes. Both occur among both groups with great enough frequency to know them when you see them. Trust me, it is easier to be closeminded in the majority.

[quote] I'm sure you frequent places where there are many people who are just like yourself. This is where the problem lies.

---

I very rarely go to bars or any other gay-dominant venue. If I did I'd probably spend less time posting here. My workplace did not have a single openly gay person in a group of about 60 people when I was hired. I've learned to "tolerate" straight people pretty well.

[quote] Why do you call your self African-American.

---

Can't take blame for that one. It's just one of the many conventions that I use to communicate with others. As I said my color is relevant here IMO and it would have been difficult for you to know that as I've learned from other comments on this board.

[quote] If you stopped acting like a minority and more like the majority you would be accepted faster. The sooner you all figure that out the better it will be for everyone.

---

I think others on this thread have addressed that better than I can.

Oh, and Jim Allen, please don't ever lose your inestimable capacity for patience. I'd miss your posts more than I could ever say.

[ September 28, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

Read some of the e-mails we got today.

Excuse me, Shockey, have some respect, please. You've come on to this website to express your views but they've not so slowly grown into what appears to be the belief that minorities should just be quiet and not disturb the majority's groove. I don't think so, pal. From what I can tell from your postings, you've obviously had a bad experience somewhere along the way because for as contained as you're trying to be, your contempt is pretty obvious.
When you've been a minority, enduring various levels of crap for a long time, when some dipshit (the ballplayer) says something as ignorant as what he did, of course he's going to get some flak - I think he can handle it, he's a big boy now and he's in the big leagues and in the spotlight - And if he wants to dish it out, he's gonna get it back just as you will here...
So, Welcome to the board by all means, but if you think we're all just going to lay down and listen to you spew your barely civil views without questioning and challenging them, you're mistaken...

Jim A - thanks for another great post...I appreciate your views alot..

[quote] but you won't see me going on to religious websites and mocking them for being superstisious boneheads."

---

Ummmmmmm..... Am I missing something, or did you totally side step his question, and ignore the validity of his comment? He was not talking about the validity of his beliefs or the correct religion that you should be a part of. He was stating that the action that he takes in his life is not to go to a place built exclusively for a certain type of person(like a religious web site) then once at that location, commence belittling and devaluing their opinions, and trash talking. He leaves them alone to believe what the want. However, many straight people feel the need to go on message boards all over the net, yahoo among others, and instead of discussing issues, they go in and simply tell people that being gay is a sin, and wrong and we are going to hell. How many times a day does that happen, while at the same time, people like Jim htat may think that the Christian religion is a farce, but do they go out and declare that to the web sites and incite heated debate. I don't think so. It's bigots that hide behind the freedom of speech when they are not trying to get a point across, they are simply trying to incite anger from the person they are "speaking" too. The freedom of speech is also attached the rest of the Bill of Rights, so that means that In addition to your freedom of speech you also must realize that your freedom of speech may also be overriding another person's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Please think before you speak, and ask yourself if you are infringing on someone's pursuit of Happyness.

All I have to say is WOW! This is amazing to see so many diverse people speaking about this subject. We all have to admit this kind of dialogue is good for everybody. Free exchanges of thought without hatred or violence is positive no matter what is being said. Thanks to everyone who has participated in this exchange for their openess and honesty. I am sure if we take the time to think about this, we have all learned something important. Tolerance.

I guess the person to thank the most then, is Mr. Shockey himself.

Amen, Sportyboy - And hopefully the goal for everyone is understanding....

"One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch..."

Hope I didn't butcher that lyric...

[quote]Originally posted by ShockeyTellstheTruth:
Be real you are less than 6% of the population.

So he stated what he thought, does this make him a bad person. No it does not. It means he offended 6% of the population with his comments. I am sure he is not the only one who has offended some minority group during his life time. How many have you offended in yours?

---

1. Where do you get this 6% figure from? I'm not saying you're wrong (some people say we're only 2%), but it's just such a random number, I'm wondering where it comes from.

2. So hypothetically, if we were 26% of the population, would what Shockey said be worse? 36%? 46%? What's the magic number, to use a sportish term, that makes someone a "bad person" for expressing certain beliefs? Blacks, for example, are - what, 15% of the population? So if a guy says, "I don't want any blacks on my team," would he be bad even though he's only offending 15% of the population? I'm just curious.

[quote]Originally posted by JC:
So you've never hugged, kissed or held hands with a woman in public? You've never mentioned your wife or girlfriend to a co-worker? You've never expressed an appreciation for a sexy woman? Or mentioned what a great time you had at a bar that is a known hangout for straight people?

---

Even as an out cop - I don't mention a lot of stuff to co-workers for fear of being accused of "Flaunting it "

And for what it's worth, I'm not "offended" by Shockey's comments. I just find them interesting, in sociological sort of way. Especially the part about he wouldn't stand for it. Isn't there some Stevie Wonder song called, "I Ain't Gonna Stand for It"? I mean, is Shockey going to quit the team in protest if a guy comes out? (NOTE: I'm NOT saying he should, I'm just saying that's the logical conclusion to his comments).

I do think Shockey was probably trying to be funny, which is a phenomenon you see frequently on Letterman, Leno, etc. People try to be funny in the style of the funny person they're talking too, and it just falls flat. So whatever.

Dear Objectiveobserver,

Some of the people who visit this discussion board did get somewhat upset by Jeremy's comments. When people get upset they often react emotionally rather than with the forethought they might otherwise be capable of. It's best not to judge people under such circumstances since they're not necessarily at their best.

Rest assured that most of us who visit the Outsports discussion board don't really care all that much about Jeremy's opinions of us or anything else. As for the larger Gay communiity, most of them have never heard of him.

I mention this only because you've directed your comments to "you guys" and reference the tendency of "gay people" to "get all upset when someone like Shockey says something slightly offensive, but then turn around and blatantly demean and belittle him and anyone associated with him".

I know you meant to say "some gay people" or "a few gay people".

I agree with you about the Howard Stern Show. I've never been able to watch five minutes of it without starting to squirm uncomfortably in my seat. I'm continually amazed at the number of people who nevertheless will put their reputations on the line by appearing on this tasteless show.

Of course his remarks will reflect badly on the Giants, both team and organization. It perhaps shouldn't be that way but it is. Thats why the teams all have press offices to handle the spin when an athlete says or does something he shouldn't. They seem to be kept pretty busy nowadays. I'm sure they helped Jeremy with the full apology which he realeased and which is now being reported on ESPN, ABC etc.

I don't think Gay people are any better or worse than straight people. Gay people visiting a discussion board no different than straight people who might visit/post. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but the anonymity afforded by such boards seems to encourage some people right over the top. Still I'm all for free speach. That necessarily means one's going to hear lotsa' things you'll wish you hadn't. Kinda' like that Howard Stern thing I mentioned earlier.

You're right in saying we're allowed to speak our mind, say as we please, and damn those who disagree with us. I think everyone has probably been guilty of exercising some intolerance in their lives. It's part of human nature. When people disagree tempers can flare. Gay people haven't cornered the market.

Q: "If you are free to have and express your opinion...why aren't the people who disagree with you allowed that same freedom?"

A: They are. Castigating or denigrating people who express opinions with which we disagree is not at all the same as trying to muzzle them or shut them up. Jeremy shared his opinions with us and now we're sharing ours with him.

Q: "I, for one, think it would be a tragedy if there were an openly gay player in the NFL. Football is a SPORT...not a podium for the gay movement to speak from. Can't you people get that through your head...some of us don't WANT to be bombarded with homosexuality."

A: I get your point - it's sport not sex. At the moment, however, it seems to me that Jeremy (a straight person) is the one who's decided to mix the two. Come to think of it many predominantly straight professional athletes don't seem to be able to keep their mouths off the subject. It's either "faggot this and faggot that" or "Gee, I hope ther's no queers on my team" or having to ride the subway with fags, or eat in restaurants with fags or declare themselves to be heterosexual. Today, as from the beginning, it's straight people who've made an issue of sexual orientation.

Q: "You don't see people flaunting the fact that they are straight and playing in the NFL do you? I'd be offended if they did."

A: In the gay/straight equation, you're not dealing with a level playing field. For gay people the issue is whether we are, can be, will be comfortable working in professional sports as in other occupations. At the moment the answer is no, and that must change.

Q: "Today Jeremy Shockey is the bane of the gay community because of his beliefs (he obviously doesn't agree with the homosexual lifestyle). Would he be your hero if he had answered the question, "yeah, I hope there are gay people in the NFL"? Of course he would...it's not that Jeremey Shockey spoke his mind that bothers you people, its that when he spoke his mind he didn't agree with your views."

A: You got a 100% on this one! Jeremy speakin' his mind doesn't bother me at all. I do disagree with him completely and he is going to know it. We listened to him and now he's going to hear from us.

Q: "To demonstrate that you people seem to have a double standard, consider the following question: If Jeremy Shockey had made the exact same comments about straight people...would you be all up in arms then - or would he instantly become a hero and an icon for the Gay community? ...I think you know the answer to that question..."

A: I think you think you know the answer to that question. If we lived in an opposite universe and 90% of the population were gay and 10% were straight and Jeremy was gay and made similar comments about straight people, the question is, how would straight people feel about it. I think we all know the answer to that question is that they would feel any differently about it than gay people do now.

Thanks for sharing "objective".

I just read through [quickly] some of the hate emails that Outsports has received.

When did we become a non-secular society? I didn't realize we're supposed to read the bible, as one of the emailers stated.

I must say, too, I love all the comments about what really causes AIDS. The people writing these emails should be placed into high research positions so they can not figure out a cause, and hopefully cure, for idiocy. (Not sure if that's a real word but it does get the point across.)

Sorry to rant. It amazes me to see the views of people in this day and age and how close-minded they are. I can only imagine what these people think about other minorities and women.

Quote from OBJECTIVE OBSERVER _ I BELIeVE------- Q: "I, for one, think it would be a tragedy if there were an openly gay player in the NFL. Football is a SPORT...not a podium for the gay movement to speak from. Can't you people get that through your head...some of us don't WANT to be bombarded with homosexuality."

" OK - when they show a wife of a football player in the stands as her husband scores - OR a personal story of the players home life WITH wife present are they flaunting their heterosexuality? NO (not in my opinion )_ they are just showing their life. SO - when a gay player's partner is shown someday or a clip of their home life is seen then don't bitch- FAIR is FAIR!

[quote]Originally posted by BigTheta:
I can only imagine what these people think about other minorities...

---

I don't have to imagine, and it aint pretty. You either get thickskinned quick, use the pressure to make diamonds, or wither up and self-destruct: too many choose the latter.

[quote] http://www.outsports.com/nfl/2002/0927shoc...ckeyletters.htm

---

Thanks for letting us in on the storm Jim. You guys are obviously on the frontline while the rest of us are shooting from the trenches when it comes to the battle against homophobia in sports.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: sportinlife ]

Hi, guys, I want to get down on one knee and apologize for causing you any pain. Hell's bells, I'll even get down on two knees - I've always to do that. I was thinking about this last night as I took my bubble bath and the sensitive young bachelor I met at the fragrance counter at Barney's mixed me an apple martini in the Poggenpohl kitchen, and I felt terrible. After I lit some aromatic candles he and I talked about it, and I came to the conclusion that I was being a bit of a drama queen. The realization made me a bit depressed so Darren (the "SYB") gave me a pedicure, then waxed my back and massaged me with some fabulous new oil he bought at Raymond Dragon, and then we went dancing at Splash. What fun - Jennifer Holiday was playing and I danced with my hands above my head all night long!! This morning I was back to being down, though, not even watching The English Patient for the nineteenth time made me perky again. Luckily, there's always Cher to listen to while I do my aerobics and haircare ritual. That did the trick!! Just to make sure I don't get fou again, Darren invited me to accompany him to Phantom of the Operatonight. I always get all misty when the freak, I mean the Phantom, expresses his love for the broad. So, I've gotta walk my poodle, Tigerette, and shake my booty before I get into the city. I'm meeting Darren at a place in Chelsea where they have a white man posing as a black woman. I'm sure it'll be a lot of fun, after all I saw the reverse at a Michael Jackson concert once, and I liked it. So, again, just wanted to say sorry if I made anyone stress or get their panties in a twist.


Love and kisses,
Jeremy
XXXOOXXOO

Ummmmmmm..........

Ya know, I just don't know if I want to kiss ya, or bitch slap ya, for that little piece of literature.

C'mon, you know you wanna do both to him.

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: TooTee ]

I don't know guys. I just read those e-mails and umm.. I used to be able to get mad, now I'm not sure. I kinda feel disappointed or really like an outcast. I knew people could be hateful but some of those e-mails, people still wish us death. I guess no matter how much I try to look for acceptance in the straight community, I'm always reminded that the majority wishes we would go away or die harsh deaths. I've got a couple of straight friends who looked at the e-mail. Those guys told me not to pay attention. I guess my hide isn't as tough as it used to be.

WHAT A BUNCH OF HYPOCRITS!!!

You people get all mad about Jeremy Shockey saying that he hopes there are no gays in the NFL because he wouldn't be comfortable showering with them...yet you post pictures of professional athletes in what you view as sexual positions - adding sexual inuendos as captions???

You don't see why guys like Shockey might be just a little bit uncomfortable showering with one of you? Hello? Is anyone home?

Are you people really this stupid? You wonder why people dislike you and dislike your lifestyle. Get a clue, it's because you are constantly trying to push your agenda, and every chance you get to ruin the lives of people who don't think the way you do, you take it. If you would just shut up and stop trying to cram homosexuality down everyones throats you would get along in society much better.

I think deep inside, every one of you has felt pangs of guilt over the decisions you have made. You might pawn those feelings off as "social intolerance" or just having cold feet, but in the end homosexuality is not natural and not right. You can try to cover up those feelings of guilt, and you can even try to rationalize that you were genetically ingrained with an attraction towards the same sex (an idea that has been disproven on many occasions - and even if it were true, many people are genetically imbued with a tendency towards violent crime, does that make violent crime OK?) but you can never deny that at one time you felt guilty about your decisions.

Your guilt is meant to warn you...not encourage you.

If you want to continue living in your sins that's fine, but don't insist on shoving them in the rest of societies collective faces. Jeremy Shockey has every right to worry about showering with a gay guy...just take a look around this website if you wonder why.

- A guy who is sick of being tormented by the gay movement

Jeremy: Aerobics is so passe, you've got to try spinnning....

How many people are there at an average NFL game???

70,000- 80,000?

Outsports has received 40-50 E-mails?

Ummmmm. Just to give you an Idea as to the scope of the world. This is just an example remember. On average there are More people are sitting in one stadium watching a Monday night football game on any given Monday than there are people in my entire City where I live.

The world is a big place, there are a lot of bigots, but there are just as many silent gay friendly, or heck, even gay people in this world that are just going on about their lives.

Contrary to popular belief, and as much as I would like to think differently, MY SEX LIFE, IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN ANYONE'S LIFE EXCEPT MINE. I just keep telling myself that.

So a couple of anti-gay people can actually read, and work a computer. They wrote in, and shared. How nice. Lets move on.

Bobcat, Thanks that's a good common sense way of looking at it. Makes me feel somewhat better. I guess my feelings are hurt, a little.

[quote]Originally posted by objectiveobserver:
WHAT A BUNCH OF HYPOCRITS!!!

You people get all mad about Jeremy Shockey saying that he hopes there are no gays in the NFL because he wouldn't be comfortable showering with them...yet you post pictures of professional athletes in what you view as sexual positions - adding sexual inuendos as captions???

You don't see why guys like Shockey might be just a little bit uncomfortable showering with one of you? Hello? Is anyone home?

Are you people really this stupid? You wonder why people dislike you and dislike your lifestyle. Get a clue, it's because you are constantly trying to push your agenda, and every chance you get to ruin the lives of people who don't think the way you do, you take it. If you would just shut up and stop trying to cram homosexuality down everyones throats you would get along in society much better.

I think deep inside, every one of you has felt pangs of guilt over the decisions you have made. You might pawn those feelings off as "social intolerance" or just having cold feet, but in the end homosexuality is not natural and not right. You can try to cover up those feelings of guilt, and you can even try to rationalize that you were genetically ingrained with an attraction towards the same sex (an idea that has been disproven on many occasions - and even if it were true, many people are genetically imbued with a tendency towards violent crime, does that make violent crime OK?) but you can never deny that at one time you felt guilty about your decisions.

Your guilt is meant to warn you...not encourage you.

If you want to continue living in your sins that's fine, but don't insist on shoving them in the rest of societies collective faces. Jeremy Shockey has every right to worry about showering with a gay guy...just take a look around this website if you wonder why.

- A guy who is sick of being tormented by the gay movement

---

None of this sounds very objective.

Hmmm, not objective at all...

Hey Budge - Don't take those emails to heart - there are fanatics and people confused and tormented about sex everywhere - don't let them get you down, okay? It's not worth it...
And while I know you think I'm a jerk, I don't mean it, i'm just kind of impulsive and snappy sometimes - years of fighting two brothers made me that way ...Peace?

William1865

RE: "None of this sounds very objective"

LOL, I have to admit that I laughed as soon as I read your post...I guess you're right.

I guess I should have used the handle "OpinionatedObserver" shouldn't I?

Oops, sorry, duplicate post

[ September 27, 2002: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Shockey:
Hi, guys, I want to get down on one knee and apologize for causing you any pain. Hell's bells, I'll even get down on two knees - I've always to do that. I was thinking about this last night as I took my bubble bath and the sensitive young bachelor I met at the fragrance counter at Barney's mixed me an apple martini in the Poggenpohl kitchen, and I felt terrible. After I lit some aromatic candles he and I talked about it, and I came to the conclusion that I was being a bit of a drama queen. The realization made me a bit depressed so Darren (the "SYB") gave me a pedicure, then waxed my back and massaged me with some fabulous new oil he bought at Raymond Dragon, and then we went dancing at Splash. What fun - Jennifer Holiday was playing and I danced with my hands above my head all night long!! This morning I was back to being down, though, not even watching The English Patient for the nineteenth time made me perky again. Luckily, there's always Cher to listen to while I do my aerobics and haircare ritual. That did the trick!! Just to make sure I don't get fou again, Darren invited me to accompany him to Phantom of the Operatonight. I always get all misty when the freak, I mean the Phantom, expresses his love for the broad. So, I've gotta walk my poodle, Tigerette, and shake my booty before I get into the city. I'm meeting Darren at a place in Chelsea where they have a white man posing as a black woman. I'm sure it'll be a lot of fun, after all I saw the reverse at a Michael Jackson concert once, and I liked it. So, again, just wanted to say sorry if I made anyone stress or get their panties in a twist.


Love and kisses,
Jeremy
XXXOOXXOO

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I hope you don't make a living as a comedian.