So what does the Red Sox nation think of the possibility of A-Rod coming to town for Manny, and the subsequent trade of Nomar?

I personally don't want to see it happen. I know A-Rod is the best offensive player in the league and he will CRUSH the ball in Fenway, but yelling out NOMAH! at the top of my lungs is too much a part of me to give it up.

I do think Nomar is being disingenuous crying foul. He turned down a 60 million dollar extension last year, so he shouldn't cry that Boston doesn't think he's gonna stick around after next year.

Still, it's all exciting stuff. NEXT YEAR IS THE YEAR!

Boo-hoo, whine, whine... Henry: Nomar contract negotiations strained

Keep them both. Put A-Rod at 2B to replace Walker. Trade Manny and a second-stringer to Houston. (NOT G*** K*****!) Bring in Ivan Rodriguez to replace Mirabelli. Maybe I should tote this up...

[ December 09, 2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

There was an article in the Los Angeles Times that I won't bother linking to because it's easy to summarize:

Nomah's agent: The Red Sox openly lusting after A-Rod is a slap in the face for my client.

Wherever Nomah ends up, expect the phrase "I got no respect" to pop up regularly in press conferences.

I think the more serious you are about the Red Sox, the more ready you are for this to happen.

1. Everybody's tired of Manny and agrees he's overpaid.

2. We would have screamed bloody murder in '99 or '00 when Nomar was posting OPS numbers like 1.021 and 1.033 respectively, but face it, since he broke his wrist he's not the same. Four years ago you could have argued that he's as valuable as ARod, but not any more.

3. John Henry and Theo Epstein have built up a LOT of credibility around here especially since the Schilling deal. Fans seem pretty willing to assume those guys know what they're doing. Which could change in a hearbeat, as we know... but for now they have the confidence of The Nation.

The best way to follow the Sox online is the Sons of Sam Horn message board. They've gotten a lot of attention since Schilling logged on in the middle of the night Thanksgiving and they helped talk him into signing w the Sox; so they're not taking new members. But you can lurk, as I do. If anything happens, they'll be hashing it out within minutes.

http://pub208.ezboard.com/bsonsofsamhorn

And here's a good article that sums up how a lot of Sox fans are feeling right now:

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/031205.html

If (when?) it all comes crashing down again, it ought to be really, really ugly in Red Sox Nation. I'm sensing more of a buildup than usual. I just can't get the spectre of Frankotite out of my head... eek! Or, as the column from ESPN called him, "Paul Shaffer." wink

Damn Simmons is a fine writer, he actually brought me to tears at the end, there... The opening riff on How It Is in Red Sox Nation is right on the money.

I love the "rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for the house in blackjack" comment, which actually originated with a SoSH contributor. As to "I'm not defending message boards -- they can be evil places, especially in the wrong hands -- but some of them aren't that bad," Outsports isn't that bad, either.


JiP, I haven't been paying attention that long, who or what is Frankotite?

[ December 10, 2003, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

That writer has obviously not visited the P&R forum then.

Frankotite is a Joe in Philly-ism, I think. Rich Kotite was the former Jets coach who is generally thought to be one of the worst coaches/managers in pro sports history. Jets fans would know more.

Francona got off a nice line the other day. Something about being bald, having a big nose, no pressure on him. He's going to have to win right out of the gate--no 5 game losing streaks in the second week of the season--or his time in Philly will seem like a picnic with fluffy bunnies frolicking around. The Red Sox, are being built to win this year; there's very little thought of the future going on there that I can see.

JJ, you're right about Nomah and his wrist. That's why I don't want the Angels to get him. Let the Dodgers take another player on the downside of their career and pay him a big salary!

[ December 10, 2003, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

What do I think? The Red Sox, with Nomar, have won exactly the same number of World Series as they did with Roger Clemens and Carl Yasztremski (who remembers him now?).

At this point, if they fielded 9 old grannies who could get us a World Series, I'd say fine.

Ben (a long-time long-suffering Sox fan)

Rich Kotite was a former Eagles coach BEFORE he was inexplicably hired by the Jets, after his last Eagles team in 1994 was 7-2 and then lost their last seven games, including losses to Arizona and Atlanta, and the final straw: a pathetic season-ending loss to 3-13 Cincinnati.

One of the main complaints was that no matter how pathetic things were, he always defended them by saying dumb things like "We didn't leave anything in the locker room." "Frankotite" was coined by someone in the Phila. media to refer to Francona, who said a lot of similar things while racking up all those losses as Phillies manager.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JJ from JP:

2. We would have screamed bloody murder in '99 or '00 when Nomar was posting OPS numbers like 1.021 and 1.033 respectively, but face it, since he broke his wrist he's not the same. Four years ago you could have argued that he's as valuable as ARod, but not any more.


I agree, but doesn't it bother you that we're losing our #3 & #4 hitter for just a clean-up guy. Who takes the #3 spot? Mueller never thrived on the top of the order. Johnny D's numbers are down and the rest of the guys are power guys better suited to lower in the order. I'd like to have someone who's hitting .310 (his 2002 numbers) at that spot. And who else is there? Nobody who hit over .310 last year is going to be available. You want to see Troy Glaus hit in that spot? (BA .248, OBP .343?) I don't think we part with Nomar unless we know we've got another hitter.

I don't know enough to say Kotite was the worst coach in sports history. But he definitely was the worst Jets coach. That alone says a lot.

I'm a Yankee fan (sorry for invading the thread), but I never bought the jinx garbage. Next season should be very interesting, and I look forward to it.

BostonFan, I'd expect to see Glaus rebound from his worst year. Surely a guy smart enough to cite OPS knows that batting order doesn't matter much. wink

If you have the opportunity to get the greatest-hitting SS since Honus Wagner (at age 28 no less), you do it!

A-Rod is worth his salary (Baseball Prospectus)

Oh Lawdy. Another statshead.

To heck with this Nomah-to-the-Angels stuff. Keep Glaus and sign Miguel Tejada. The Angels solve their last two needs: a big bat and a quality SS (sorry Mr. Eckstein, I think you're sexy as all get out, but you're a 2B, not a SS).

[ December 11, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

As of this morning, the deal was Manny ( the idiot sevant) to Texas for A-Rod; Nomah to the White Sox for Maglio Ordonez. Reduced to the most simple. If that were just what it is then I can live with the trade. Losing Nomah and Manny just for A-Rod make me sick to my stomack. BTW, Chicago would then send Nomah to the Dodgers, in exchange for whom I don't know. BUT, according to Sean McAdam of the PrJo he said on WEEI, a Boston sports talk radio station, the deal has hit a snag because the Player's Association doesn't like it. Apparently, the way Theo and A-Rod had worked out the re-structuring of his contract was unsatisfactory to the Association because they believe it devalues A-Rod's contract. Not cool in their eyes. With the force and all the money behind this deal I'm sure that things will get done. If not, it's going to suck in the Red Sox clubhouse this year for Manny and Nomah; worse for A-Rod who has been lobbying to get out of Texas for the past 6 months. Stay tuned boys and girls.

Does the Players Association have the right to stop a restructuring if the player wants it badly enough? I imagine they'd put a lot of pressure on Alex Rodriguez (happy, Jim Allen?) but if he wants to do it, can they actually stop him?

[qoute]Happy, Jim Allen?[/quote]Ecstatic. I was bummed that Jai on last night's Queer Eye called her *-**.

I read today that Beelzebud is involved. The whole deal is going to collapse soon, isn't it?

[ December 17, 2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

[quote]Jim Allen:
[qoute]Happy, Jim Allen?[/quote]Ecstatic. I was bummed that Jai on last night's Queer Eye called her *-**.

I read today that Beelzebud is involved. The whole deal is going to collapse soon, isn't it? [/quote]

hmmm....I wonder if Alex Rodriguez and Jai Rodriguez are related???? :>)

Baseball union rejects changes to A-Rod's contract - AP



[ December 17, 2003, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: redsoxbreath ]

It seems wrong to me. If a player wants to take less money, he ought to be able to.

[ December 17, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

Considering all that Alex Rodriguez has done for the players' union--setting the bar for future salaries, for one--it seems to me that the union should do anything & everything they can to accomodate him. Baseball's powers-that-be want the deal to happen, the teams want the deal to happen, Alex Rodriguez wants the deal to happen, so the union should suck it up. Here's a question: what happens with Nomar (Hamm) Garciaparra if the deal falls though? How will the Red Sox and he make up???

~Adam

Here's the Beelzebud bit:

I just watched a 10 PM newcast on UPN38 here in Boston. During a segment of the broadcast, the sports guy, a notorious and common boozebag, Bob Lobell, discussed the position of the Player's Union. He said, and I have no idea if he's right on this, that Selig has the ability, right, whatever, to overrule everyone and make the deal a reality. That would end up in court and "Orzo" and the Association would not want that to happen. According to Lobell. Oh boy.

While this makes sense, I can see why the players union doesn't like it--because it puts a downward pressure on everybody's pay.

For example, if your co-worker tells your boss "I'm willing to work for less" it puts a downward pressure on everybody's pay because the boss can say "If I can pay Joe Shmo less, why can't I pay Joe-in-Philly less, too?"

The collective bargaining agreement prohibits a player's contract being restructured so he accrues less total monetary value. The Players Union would be idiots to permit anything else.

And it's not the American, Free-Market Way, right?

I remember Yaz. If you're a fan, why are you slighting him? He actually got the Red Sucks to the series, but they lost to...the Saint Louis Cardinals!

I'm sorry, but I can't stand Boston's baseball team, so this is all quite amusing to me. A-Rod, do yourself a favor, don't go to the bad karma Sox.

Treat your players--current and past--with more respect. Realize that they're battling some terrible demons the Yawkeys unleashed. Acknowledge that in the AL East, the Yankees are the superior franchise in every way. And then you'll get back to the Series and win it all!

Apparently Selig can approve the trade no matter what the union thinks. However, the union has the right to file a grievance which would then be heard and decided by an independent arbitrator. I guess it boils down to whether baseball wants to once again wind up in an adversarial legal stance with the Players Association....

Yeah, we Yankee fans are supposed to be soooo scared. I even heard some idiot on the radio today suggest that Major League Baseball doesn't want the Red Sox to win the World Series. The truth is that the Red Sucks have always found a way to screw up anything they have ever tried since 1918! Why should acquiring or not acquiring Alex Rodriguez change anything? How many times have we been told that they are the team to beat going into next season only to see them blow it somehow? In the meantime, they have had to endure watching division rivals, such as the Yankees, Orioles, and Blue Jays take the World Series.

Selig put a big thumbs down on this trade about 20 minutes after the deadline!

No, he didn't. He just told the parties involved to stop negotiating on points.

This isn't dead yet by any means.

Both cnnsi.com and espn.com report (using AP information) that according to Selig "all negotiations have stopped." Everything else to make you think otherwise are in the rumor mill.

Here's a link that makes it seem very uncertain.

espn.com

[ December 18, 2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: billsf ]

A-Rod was the lead (non-)story tonight at 11 on Chs 4 & 5. Ch 7 lead with a bloody car wreck.

The Red Sox released a statement saying the deal is dead and blamed the players union's "intransigence."

I don't understand how Selig can tell teams they can't negotiate. If the teams can find a way to make a deal without the contract being restructured, why shouldn't they be allowed to try?

What the hell is up with Ch. 7? Why do they hate the Red Sox?

What a pathetic thing this all is. I guess this means Nomah isn't going anywhere. He's going to be a happy bunny in 2004, isn't he?

The Red Sox will be the best soap opera around next season.

As dead as the deal may seem now, most pundits are saying that it must happen now more than ever given the sensitivity of the main players. Manny was a whiny little bitch before; imagine what he'll be like now! Nomar's heard half his team go on TV or radio and say they'd rather play with ARod. ARod's Ranger teammates must be somewhat resentful that his contract has contributed to keeping the Rangers mired in the basement. I sill believe it'll happen. Maybe not in it's current form exactly, but it'll happen.

Of course, the Red Sox, who annually find a new scapegoat to blame their continuous failures, will have plenty of new people to blame in the forthcoming year. I find it so amusing that the ass**** Larry Luchino who referred to the Yankees as "the Evil Empire", has been using even fiercer tactics than the Yankees to buy himself a World Series.

Hello, Sox fans!

I happened to be in an online chat with Tom Werner last night. He reiterated that the deal is dead, sort of the Company line, ie. the statement issued by Larry L.

I have to say that even with the statements from LL and Tom's reiteration of that statement, the deal is probably not dead. There's too much at stake, and we'll have to sit tight to find out the rest.

Before anyone asks, he did not give info. on Katie Curic, a transcript of the chat is available at "TheRemyReport.Com".

Sorry, cattledog, but you haven't been paying attention (perhaps you're getting a little giddy with relief). If the Sox were trying to buy the Series, cost be damned, they would have taken on the full A-Rod contract, paid Hicks his $5m/year, and the trade would have gone through without a hitch. What scotched it was that the Sox want to limit their payroll to $120m -- which is, I remind you, 60% of what the MFY will probably be shelling out next season.

Not exactly Steinbrenner tactics, it seems to me.

Tom Hicks, the Ranger owner (a man who must be hemorrhaging money due to the baseball team and the Dallas Stars) now says that he has set a Tuesday 12/23 deadline for the any trade deal involving Alex Rodriguez. He argues that things have to be set one way or the other so the Rangers can make firm plans for next season.

~Adam

Oh for the love of God will they just GET THIS DEAL DONE & END IT ALREADY??? I'm tired of reading hearing about this. It reminds me of the back & forth banter that happened when Alex left Seattle and went to Texas. I shed not a tear for Hicks. It's his own fault for tendering that insane contract to Boras to get A-Rod in the first place.

Don't believe for a nanosecond that if Hicks were offered a deal that benefits him he wouldn't do it even if it were an hour before opening day. This tough stance is nothing more than a bluff.

A deadline? Great idea! Why didn't anybody think of that before? Now we can be CERTAIN this thing will be wrapped up by tomorrow!!

Both front offices claim the deal is dead; I'll believe it on Opening Day. But if true, have the Bosox suffered a loss in December? Or are they better off having Nomar AND Manny instead of A-Rod?

Those of us who were skeptical of the deal being dead may be right. ESPN.com is reporting that negotiations have reopened.

This just in: Generalisimo Francisco Franco is still dead. wink

Edited to add: I'm now thinking of the youngsters around here who will have NO idea what this means, so, go here and learn.

[ January 20, 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Joe in Philly ]

GVF, that is one ferocious set of denials from all the parties concerned.

It's a done deal, then.

[ January 20, 2004, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Jim Allen ]

What's the rush on this deal?? They should wait until opening day of spring training & then finalize it. That way they can tease us for weeks yet! wink

~Adam

I am just about sick and tired of the Rangers and Tom Hicks. I moved to Dallas, and I'm trying to blend in and be part of the fan base of the local team. But the front office just makes it impossible. I don't make enough to buy season tickets, so I was waiting until single game tickets go on sale. If I buy any tickets this year, it will be for the weekend the Cardinals are in town (one of my favorite teams).

Possibly for the Astros, and possibly for the Orioles, who signed Palmeiro (whom the Rangers alienated). But that would be too many games, and show too much support for the Rangers.

*fumes*

And this is even before they figure out whether A-Rod will be there or not.

Yeah JA, I'm reminded of the saying "Me thinks thou doth protest too much". While on occasion these rumor mills are mistaken (the NY press had Mike Fratello hired as Knicks coach!), most of the time, they are dead on. I can't imagine Garciaparra, Ramirez and Rodriguez can just go out and do their jobs after all this yanking.

Despite trying all winter to trade him, the Rangers name A-Rod team captain.

Wow. That's just bizarre. I appreciate that the trade talks are essentially dead right now, but I always feel in situations like that talks can restart at any time. It'd be pretty embrrassing to trade your captain two months after you've given him that title, no?